hey everyone i was wondering what the best gun cal. and manufacture is the best for hunting coyotes, musk rats, and prairie dogs? I will not be reloading dont have time. so i was wondering whats the best gun out there for the money, as well as a good scope for it. please help...

Remington 700 in 223 or 22-250 + Leupold 4x12. As far as ammo goes, there is a ton of options available and prices are reasonable. Im sure 50 guys will get on here and swear by the 204 Ruger. I know alot of guys swear everytime they pay for ammo.

Remington 700 in 223 or 22-250 + Leupold 4x12. As far as ammo goes, there is a ton of options available and prices are reasonable. Im sure 50 guys will get on here and swear by the 204 Ruger. I know alot of guys swear everytime they pay for ammo.

does anyone know about the 700 sps varmint? hows that stock?

The SPS varmint has another simple synthetic stock. I cannot say that I've ever squeezed a trigger on a prairie dog or another small varmint like that, however I've learned a good deal from people on another forum (Midwest Predator Hunters). I'd say your best bet for a rifle would be a Savage (mod. 12 or 11, or if you want to spend less get a Stevens rifle- it's a Savage rifle without the Accutrigger)... they may be ugly but they are very accurate out of the box and will do the job very well for any varmint shooting. You could shoot a .223 or .22-250, but I know a guy who absolutely swears by .17 rifles. He has a few rifles chambered in wildcat cartridges that he hunts coyotes with (coyote calling) and they work very well for him. I'd say anything between a .17 to .243 (6mm) rifle should be fine, but it really depends on what you want to do because coyote hunting is very different than prairie dog shooting.

The scope you need is going to vary depending on what you plan do use it for. If you're calling coyotes, you really won't need a really high power scope because you'll need a large field-of-view. A simple 3-9x or 4-14x would be fine. For prairie dogs, etc., you can do some real long-range shooting and that would require alot of magnification. An adjustable objective would be great, because they eliminate parallax problems, which you'd experience with the different ranges and magnification (instead of focusing with the magnification, you could set the scope at one magnification and adjust the AO to focus on the range).

I just remembered another rifle. One guy here (FaucettB) has a CZ rifle .204 that is a real tackdriver and they aren't too expensive either. I forget what scope he has on it. Hey Bob, how expensive is .204 ammunition?

Bob reloads, so that makes a cost difference. .223 is going to be the least expensive commercially loaded because it is the most common of those mentioned. It also has commercial match loads available for longer range precision, though those won't have the explosive varmint-type bullets usually used on prairie dogs. I like the suggestion of the Savage and/or Stevens. Not sure what to say about scopes. I am partial to mil-dot scopes, and that might be a good solution if you need to alter range rapidly for successive shots? Most of those scopes will have the parallax adjustment. Those that don't have usually got 100 yard fixed parallax by default. To set parallax you set the gun on a rest and focus on the target, then move your eye left to right across the field of view and back again. If the crosshairs don't move off the target, the parallax is correctly set.

This controversy has gone along for a long time. Actually one gun is probably not enough if your going to shoot predators and PD's.

Coyotes, foxes and bobcats usually are shot from calling setups. Standard weight rifles with 2 by 7 or 3 by 9 wide field scopes excel for this duty.

Prairie dogs, ground squirrels and Rock chucks are a different kind of game and in the big PD fields shooters can put a lot of rounds downrange in a day. Heavy barrel rifles with 6 by 24 and 8 by 32 scopes work well and most shooters have two or three and rotate them to keep barrel heat within reasonable limits.

Here in Idaho we don't have the PD's, but shootable ground squirrel populations and we have coyotes and bobcats.

for 30 plus years my go to the woods coyote rifle was a 22-250 standard weight barrel, 2 by 7 Leupold scope and a good sit down set of shooting sticks. My ground squirrel rifle was a 26 inch heavy barrel 222 bench rest single shot with a 6 by 24 scope.

A few years ago I went to a Ruger #1 with a 3 by 9 Weaver Classic in 243 for a predator rifle. My grand daughter liked it so well that she's confiscated it.

Today I shoot three different guns though they overlap some. For a coyote set gun I shoot a medium weight barrel 204 Ruger chambered in a CZ 527 Varmint that weighs 7.2 pounds bare and about 8.5 with the scope and cartridges. For fall and winter coyotes it wears a 3 by 9 by 50 Simmons scope and for spring and summer ground squirrels it gets an old Tasco 8 by 24 Tasco target dot scope. I also shoot a Remington 700 VLS 26 inch Heavy barrel with a 6 by 24 mil dot scope on it for ground squirrels, but it's way to heavy for a coyote gun.

As for cartridge selection if you don't reload the 223 is the least expensive way to go. Ekoch gave you good advice about Savage, but look at the CZ 527's also.

This is a group from my 204.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/targetstoday-20.jpg

And this is the baby that did it.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/CZ527-204-1.jpg

Here's the bipod I use for coyote sets. It just snaps on to a nylon ball on the sling swivel.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/bipod-1.jpg

This is the Ruger # 1, notice the nylon ball for the bipod.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/Ruger1b.jpg

And here's the 700 VLS, it's to heavy and scoped way to high for a coyote calling gun, notice the nylon ball for a bipod on the front sling swivel.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/700vls.jpg

Can we get another photo of that #1's buttstock, please? :)

Here you go. Gun was built in 1979 and is a 243.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/Rugerstock1-1.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/Rugerstock2.jpg

Man o man are you gonna get alot of opinions on this one. Kinda like what is the best p/u truck.

My opinion is a 24"(20" min.) AR. This,with a 6.5X20X50 Leupold(or the like). Also a JP brake installed,trigger worked,very large and contoured grip,and some Black Hills ammo. Also a Harris bipod and Stoney Point shooting stix.

This was(basically) my setup when guiding in Maine,and I killed 35-50 yotes per year and probably 150 'chucks per year down "south". -----pruhdlr

Start with the simple. You don't reload and won't. That makes the .223 the only reasonable choice. Lots of ammo available, cheap. Unless you're a rich man, in which case, pick what you want.

For usual use these days, the ones we read about the most are Remingtons (put a Timney trigger in it, tho'), Savages, and CZ's. All are great value and good quality now. Yes, there are lots of other choices, but just trying to get to more popular picks.

After that, it's taste and wallet.

I agree strongly with the .223 choice, even though ammo is neither as cheap or as plentiful as it was (due to low military supplies - long story).

Truly, there are NO poor choices in rifles, just some that are less convenient than others. I wouldn't want to schlep a 12-pound benchrest gun to a coyote stand two miles from my truck, but I could if it were my only gun and I hunted coyotes less often than I shot from the bench. See?

I'd shop for a used rifle in .223. The first bolt-action sporter-weight Remington, Winchester, Browning, Ruger, Savage, CZ, Howa or Tikka that I found on the rack in decent shape would go home with me. And I'd be a darn happy hunter.

The problem with that? A sporter-weight .223 bolt rifle is SO universally useful and appropriate that you almost never see a decent used one. Nobody gets rid of a gun that usable.

This controversy has gone along for a long time. Actually one gun is probably not enough if your going to shoot predators and PD's.

Coyotes, foxes and bobcats usually are shot from calling setups. Standard weight rifles with 2 by 7 or 3 by 9 wide field scopes excel for this duty.

Prairie dogs, ground squirrels and Rock chucks are a different kind of game and in the big PD fields shooters can put a lot of rounds downrange in a day. Heavy barrel rifles with 6 by 24 and 8 by 32 scopes work well and most shooters have two or three and rotate them to keep barrel heat within reasonable limits.

Here in Idaho we don't have the PD's, but shootable ground squirrel populations and we have coyotes and bobcats.

for 30 plus years my go to the woods coyote rifle was a 22-250 standard weight barrel, 2 by 7 Leupold scope and a good sit down set of shooting sticks. My ground squirrel rifle was a 26 inch heavy barrel 222 bench rest single shot with a 6 by 24 scope.

A few years ago I went to a Ruger #1 with a 3 by 9 Weaver Classic in 243 for a predator rifle. My grand daughter liked it so well that she's confiscated it.

Today I shoot three different guns though they overlap some. For a coyote set gun I shoot a medium weight barrel 204 Ruger chambered in a CZ 527 Varmint that weighs 7.2 pounds bare and about 8.5 with the scope and cartridges. For fall and winter coyotes it wears a 3 by 9 by 50 Simmons scope and for spring and summer ground squirrels it gets an old Tasco 8 by 24 Tasco target dot scope. I also shoot a Remington 700 VLS 26 inch Heavy barrel with a 6 by 24 mil dot scope on it for ground squirrels, but it's way to heavy for a coyote gun.

As for cartridge selection if you don't reload the 223 is the least expensive way to go. Ekoch gave you good advice about Savage, but look at the CZ 527's also.

This is a group from my 204.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/targetstoday-20.jpg

And this is the baby that did it.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/CZ527-204-1.jpg

Here's the bipod I use for coyote sets. It just snaps on to a nylon ball on the sling swivel.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/bipod-1.jpg

This is the Ruger # 1, notice the nylon ball for the bipod.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/Ruger1b.jpg

And here's the 700 VLS, it's to heavy and scoped way to high for a coyote calling gun, notice the nylon ball for a bipod on the front sling swivel.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/700vls.jpg

i have a 6 year old 243 in the adl and its a tack driver at 50, 100, and 150 yards with an Atec 3x9 scope so i have the larger gun that you said, so basically the .223 would be my best et with a heavy barrel, and a 24 or 32 powered scope...
thatnks everyone for your imput...
whats the difference between the 223 and the 22-250?

About 300 fps difference. The 223 has a shorter range than the 22-250. The new 204 Ruger shoots the same trajectory as the 22-250 and the 220 swift with less recoil than the 223.

For your use, not being a reloader the 223 is by far the best varmint rifle for cost of operation. I'd look carefully at the CZ 527's. Their designed around the 223 sized case and even the varmint model is light enough to make a really decent calling rifle. I just change out scopes between winter and summer.

By the way I have two of the Simmon's AETEC scopes and they are a great scope.

About 300 fps difference. The 223 has a shorter range than the 22-250. The new 204 Ruger shoots the same trajectory as the 22-250 and the 220 swift with less recoil than the 223.

For your use, not being a reloader the 223 is by far the best varmint rifle for cost of operation. I'd look carefully at the CZ 527's. Their designed around the 223 sized case and even the varmint model is light enough to make a really decent calling rifle. I just change out scopes between winter and summer.

By the way I have two of the Simmon's AETEC scopes and they are a great scope.

ok so i should go with the 223.
it will be the cheapest to shoot and the best gun over all...
i like the cz look but they are not around me so i cant put them p to my shoulder. i also like the savages they look nice too...
so should i wait and check out the cz?

About 300 fps difference. The 223 has a shorter range than the 22-250. The new 204 Ruger shoots the same trajectory as the 22-250 and the 220 swift with less recoil than the 223.

For your use, not being a reloader the 223 is by far the best varmint rifle for cost of operation. I'd look carefully at the CZ 527's. Their designed around the 223 sized case and even the varmint model is light enough to make a really decent calling rifle. I just change out scopes between winter and summer.

By the way I have two of the Simmon's AETEC scopes and they are a great scope.

so if i get what your saying then the 204 shoots like the 22 250 with less recoil then the 223!!!
but the ammo is more for it? is that correct? :confused:

Yup, the 204 gives you 22-250 trajectories with less recoil than the 223, but feeding it without reloading is more expensive, though not as expensive as feeding a 22-250.

Throw that fact in with being able to watch your hits thru the scope or better yet your misses so you can adjust the next shot and ... This in my humble opinion is probably the best varmint round to come along in the last 50 years.

I've been chasing varmints for over 45 years now. 30 of those the 22-250 has been my go to the woods varmint rifle. I've also had most of the .224's on the market from the hornet to the 222, the 223, the 225 Winchester, the 220 Swift and the 22-250. I've also used the 6mm Remington and the 243.

I ran a small gunsmith shop for 27 years so have worked on the building and chambering and barreling end of the business and still feel the 204 Ruger is one of the great cartridges to come on the market. I spent 18 years chasing the bench rest game and lots more years either competing with rifles or handguns.

The 223 would make you a fine varmint rifle, but the ultimate varmint rifle on the market today is the 204 Ruger. Take a look at the ballistics on Remington's site.

For a hundred bucks and an order to Midway for a Lee Anniversary reloading kit you can get into loading. Now the costs are about the same for shooting any of the 17's, 204's or 224 diameter bullets. Payout costs will come in just a few months of shooting. That's not really important though. The fact that you can do much more shooting for the same money is really the driving force behind getting into reloading.

Just thought that I would jump in here and give Bob a +1. I can't let him be the only one talking up the 204.

I've had mine for 2+ years and wouldn't give it up for a 223 or the like. It is flatter shooting and IMHO it just out preformes the 223. I think that the folks at Ruger really got this one right.

This being said there are, however, drawbacks for the non-loader. Bulk bullets if you can even find any for the 204 arn't as cheap. If you prefer to feed it premium ammo a quick browse through the Cabela's site will show that 223 and 204 ammo are pretty close if not identical in price for comparable bullets. Here in Ga if I were to go to the local shop and buy a box of 204 I'd pay $16.99. Not sure what you'd pay in your area.

I think that the one big thing the 223 has going for it is that there is just a vast variety of bullets available but this can ba attributed to the fact that the 223 has been around a heckuva lot longer than the 204. You gotta remember the 204 is still a baby in the firearm world and there isn't going to be the selection of bullets the 223 enjoys YET. One example (that I'm a little upset over) is Barnes produces its new Varmint Granade in .224 an 6mm but not .204. I can't vouch for that bullet yet but I think they would be fun to try.

I would have to say though that if your still learning your not going to notice the difference b/w the 223 and 204 so I would go with the one that I could get a deal on and then start reloading :)

Bob that sure is a great looking piece of wood and I always enjoy looking at the groups your getting with that 204 :)

I would probably turn to my AR in .223 to use for predators and varmints.

Nice

Rem M 700 VLS in 204 Ruger.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4075/204rugergrouprp5.th.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=204rugergrouprp5.jpg)
3 @ 100 yards

so you all are saying if i reload then go with the 204 and if i dont reload i should get the 223 just because the variety of bullets it has available...

Oh, yeah, if you're opening up to the possibilities of reloading, I'd sell both of my varmint guns and get a .204. To see the hits...nothing like it. I download my .223, use small bullets, and fast powders, and can now see about 1/2 of them. That's the ticket, tho'.

ive decided after talking with some friends that im going to start reloading once i move out to south dakota in a year and use the brass that i shoot in the meantime...
so basically with this in mind i sould get the .204?

Remington I knew if you got on this forum you'd get cornered by all us old timers and we'd suck you deeper into the shooting sports. By all means get a 204 and never look back. Savage, Remington, CZ and Ruger all make dandy ones.

ive decided after talking with some friends that im going to start reloading once i move out to south dakota in a year and use the brass that i shoot in the meantime...
so basically with this in mind i sould get the .204?

Rem:

That's great news :D Another happy reloader.

In the past I have shot the 32 gr and 40 gr Hornady VMAX factory loads with good results. I now get great results from the 4o gr VMAX handloads of mine. When you get into it I'm sure some of us here will be happy to share some recipies with you. You're gonna love that caliber.

so you all are saying if i reload then go with the 204 and if i dont reload i should get the 223 just because the variety of bullets it has available...

Do you want a good general varmint rig? I know nothing of musk rats but I've hunted coyote and pdogs. Two different breed of cats. Coyote hunting takes skill, the rifle is secondary to being smarter than they are. If you see a coyote, chances are it saw you also. I've called them in but I know they were laughing when they left, they probably just came in to see what idiot was blowing a hurt rabbit call. BTW, I used a 22mag when I hunted coyote. Pdog shootin doesn't require much hunting skill, when you find a town, skill part over, just start picking your targets. For most varmint hunting, I'd say any small caliber accurate rifle will do. For pdog specific, I like a heavy barrel and high magnification scope and I never take just one rifle. As to caliber, I can't better the advice you already have. I haven't tried a 204 yet but I do use several others, especially the .223. If I didn't reload, I would use Blackhills. One of my favorite rifles, Remington 700P in .223.

thanks everyone,,,
i will for sure be asking about the loads once i start loading...
you guys have been a ton of help...
now i just have to figure out which gun...
anyone have anysuggestions?

If you really want to learn some about coyote hunting (calling or trapping), check out the Midwest Control Center... doesn't matter if you live in California or not they'll educate you on what to do, where to go, etc... they're good guys and offer practical advice.

If you really want to learn some about coyote hunting (calling or trapping), check out the Midwest Control Center... doesn't matter if you live in California or not they'll educate you on what to do, where to go, etc... they're good guys and offer practical advice.

ok thanks a lot ill check tht out...

Here's another good site with lots of coyote hunting info and they talk about varmint rifles a bunch.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/

Not that my opinion is any better than the next guys but I just bough a new remington sps varmint in a 308. I have shot about 50 rounds through it and love it. Took it deer hunting in Texas and killed a nice buck a week ago. That was off topic but thought I would throw it in. It is not very heavy for varmint rifle in my opinion. I am not partial to any one brand of rifle because I am thinking about buying a savage and a Cz but I have been very please with the SPS Varmint. Like everyone else said the 223 will be the cheapest to shoot of the two.

Not that my opinion is any better than the next guys but I just bough a new remington sps varmint in a 308. I have shot about 50 rounds through it and love it. Took it deer hunting in Texas and killed a nice buck a week ago. That was off topic but thought I would throw it in. It is not very heavy for varmint rifle in my opinion. I am not partial to any one brand of rifle because I am thinking about buying a savage and a Cz but I have been very please with the SPS Varmint. Like everyone else said the 223 will be the cheapest to shoot of the two.

well actually your thought on the sps varmint helps me out a lot. i went to te new bass pro shop in rancho coucamonga today... and i held the sps and the savge fv and i really like the feel of the sps varmint, and im guna start reloading so im guna go with the .204. thanks for the input it just ended my search... now just for the money and the optics, right after christmas i should have the gun and before summer the scope, i have a leopuld 3x9 that im guna put on for now, till summer. thanks for all your help, now im guna post about the scope so if you have anythoughts about either a 18x or 24x scope let me know,....

Finding a good scope is just as important as finding the right rifle. I guess it could be more important b/c a shooter of a gun will only shoot as good as the scope can aim. My 204 wears a Luepold 6x-18x. Your 3-9 Luepold is a good start though. If you plan on hunting Yotes then that 3 power will come in handy but if you plan on shooting dogs at 300 yards you may want the 18 power. Just remember the higher the power the smaller the field of view.

If I might throw a wrench into your decision...if you haven't already look at the CZ in either the Varmint or standard American Model. The 204 is chambered in both and they come with single set triggers which I believe is a great addition to shooting good groups off the bench and testing loads. The actions are also built for the smaller round and not just 'necked' down.

Just a thought. I love my 700 VLS Remington heavy barrel 204 and wouldn't trade it. I will take a good look at the CZ though for the next rifle I buy.

Sounds like your doing some good research and will end up with a good setup.

Finding a good scope is just as important as finding the right rifle. I guess it could be more important b/c a shooter of a gun will only shoot as good as the scope can aim. My 204 wears a Luepold 6x-18x. Your 3-9 Luepold is a good start though. If you plan on hunting Yotes then that 3 power will come in handy but if you plan on shooting dogs at 300 yards you may want the 18 power. Just remember the higher the power the smaller the field of view.

If I might throw a wrench into your decision...if you haven't already look at the CZ in either the Varmint or standard American Model. The 204 is chambered in both and they come with single set triggers which I believe is a great addition to shooting good groups off the bench and testing loads. The actions are also built for the smaller round and not just 'necked' down.

Just a thought. I love my 700 VLS Remington heavy barrel 204 and wouldn't trade it. I will take a good look at the CZ though for the next rifle I buy.

Sounds like your doing some good research and will end up with a good setup.


well heres the thing cz are hard to find in ca, ive looked at a bunch of the different stores,,, thats why im looking at the rem sps varmint and the savage fv. i like the sps varmint a lot more...

If you have a firearms dealer in your area here's a place that has really good prices on both new and used CZ's. He'll ship to a dealer in any state with an ffl.

http://www.whittakerguns.com/

well heres the thing cz are hard to find in ca, ive looked at a bunch of the different stores,,, thats why im looking at the rem sps varmint and the savage fv. i like the sps varmint a lot more...

I've got the 700 SPS in 300 RUM and like mine as well. I wasn't trying to take anything away...just add a different option. :)

I just want to make your decision harder :D

well actually your thought on the sps varmint helps me out a lot. i went to te new bass pro shop in rancho coucamonga today... and i held the sps and the savge fv and i really like the feel of the sps varmint, and im guna start reloading so im guna go with the .204. thanks for the input it just ended my search... now just for the money and the optics, right after christmas i should have the gun and before summer the scope, i have a leopuld 3x9 that im guna put on for now, till summer. thanks for all your help, now im guna post about the scope so if you have anythoughts about either a 18x or 24x scope let me know,....

From my experience I'd recommend a variable power scope.

When hunting 'yotes and other preditors I usually have mine turned down in power for fast close up shots. Same with the AO, it's turned to the yardage I expect to be shooting. If a person has to make a long shot on one that hangs up out there, normally there's enough time to make scope adjustments.

If shooting prairie dogs and such, the lower powers give you better target accusition due to the field of view. Higher powers allow me to shoot better at long ranges and confirm hits. On hot days and sighting over a warm barrel a fixed high power scope can be a pain with mirage.

I agree. For called-in predators, lower power scopes are better. I actually have a 1.5-5X on my prime calling rifle, and on fox or coyotes out to 200 yards, 5X is not too little. Nor is 1.5 too much for one at my boot toes!

For PDs, though my rifle wears a 6-24X Pentax. In real field conditions, I admit that 24X is seldom usable due to mirage. Most of the day, I find it's cranked down to 12 to 14X at most. If I ever have to replace the Pentax, I'll be buying a 4-12 or a 4.5-14X with no more than a 40mm objective. More light input isn't needed on a sunny day PD hunt!

My two cents is to get a good AR15 in .223

CD

My pd/yote rig is a Savage 12FV .223. Has a 26" Barrel and is absolutly a tack driver. To top it I had a BSA 8-32 MillDot on Leupold rings. This is awesome for prarie dogs at 32 power out to 400 or so, but for the yotes, I just turn it down to 8 and start the rabbit distress. This is my 5th .223 and have never had one let me down. For bullet choices, try the BlackHills 50gr V-Max or Hornadys Varmit Expressin 40gr. These are proven killers of vermin. if youre thinking of reloading, try 50gr Nosler Ballistic tips on top of 26.5gr of Hodgdon Varget. Good load, very stable and very leathel. Hope this is of some help
Joe

I've got the 700 SPS in 300 RUM and like mine as well. I wasn't trying to take anything away...just add a different option. :)

I just want to make your decision harder :D


Nice thing about the 300 RUM for a coyote gun is you don't have to skin them it just turns them inside out. Just pick up and shake the meat parts off.

Lets see 150 grain Sierra Game King at 3600 fps. Shoots as flat as my 204 and after 75 or a hundred rounds in the ground squirrel fields you have to take your arm home in a wheelbarrow. Only problem is your not going to be able to watch your hits thru the scope.

Nice thing about the 300 RUM for a coyote gun is you don't have to skin them it just turns them inside out. Just pick up and shake the meat parts off.

Lets see 150 grain Sierra Game King at 3600 fps. Shoots as flat as my 204 and after 75 or a hundred rounds in the ground squirrel fields you have to take your arm home in a wheelbarrow. Only problem is your not going to be able to watch your hits thru the scope.

Hey Bob:

I wasn't at all suggesting to use a 300 RUM on varments. I was just saying I had the model Rem708 is talking about getting. I've got a M700 VLS 204 and absolutly love the caliber.

You give me to much credit...I don't think my arm would last 75 rounds :D

Hey Bob:

I wasn't at all suggesting to use a 300 RUM on varments. I was just saying I had the model Rem708 is talking about getting. I've got a M700 VLS 204 and absolutly love the caliber.

You give me to much credit...I don't think my arm would last 75 rounds :D

I was poking some fun at you Bulldawg. I've shot my friends 300 RUM and I shoot an 8mm rem mag so I knew your were just kidding. That RUM is a great cartridge and I often think about having my 8 mag rechambered to an 8mm RUM. Be neat to see what kind of ballistics that big Sierra 220 grain boattail would do at 3250 fps, but it works quite well at 3080.

I sure like the 204 and think it's one of the best new cartridges to come along in the last 50 years. I've got a Rem 243 VLS, but it's just to heavy for a coyote set gun, though my son is big enough to pack it. I'm shooting a CZ 527 Varmint and love it.

well thanks for the help everyone...

Although I don't own one anymore, my vote would be for a Remington 700, in .223. The guns are accurate, ammo is cheap and plentiful. I switched to a Kimber M84 in .243, but is a bit big for tiny rats on a regular basis. For bigger predators only, I'd vote for the .243.

hey everyone i was wondering what the best gun cal. and manufacture is the best for hunting coyotes, musk rats, and prairie dogs? I will not be reloading dont have time. so i was wondering whats the best gun out there for the money, as well as a good scope for it. please help...

There are 100's of right answers, and it seems most all of the varmint caliber rifles are very accurate. The 204, I've had no experience with period. The 22-250 and 223 I've had a lot of experience with. For the money, I really like the Howa in 223. The Savages and Remingtons also offer very accurate and easy to carry varmint rifles. Do not overlook the H&R single shot rifles. With a heavy barrel, they are still light weight and very accurate. I used one for many years until it was stolen. I liked it because it was short. That made it easy to swing around in a truck if coyotes were spotted. That's legal where I hunt. If you varmint hunt a lot, you are going to find out that you'll do a lot of walking. I would consider that when picking the right rifle. Someone said you might need more than one, and that is right. By the way, I have killed 25-35 big hogs with the 223 and never needed more out to about 250 yds. If they'll stop 200+ lb hogs, a 20 lb coyote is dead!

I would pick the 223, it really doesn't matter what rifle it is in. I would pick the Howa, then throw the stock trigger away and get a Timney, set it at 2#, put a good 4-12 on it and you have a good walking around coyote rifle. The Swifts, Pentax, Bushnell, and Browning (Bushnell) all make good 4-12 scopes and larger for a fair price.
I just passed on a pretty little Model 70 Winchester about 10 years old with a 4-12 Leupold on it in 223.
Too close to Christmas

Good Luck
Tom

well thanks a lot...
i cant wait to get a new varmint gun, i have the larger 243. so its all between the 204 and the 223,,,
thanks a lot ... im guna be doing a lot more research on these two till i find the right one for me,,,
christmas is close i know. so i wont be able to get it till after the holidays and after i get my truck fixed... thanks everyone for the help...

Wait and check ou the cz. Wait and check out the cz. Had to say it twice just so you caught it. I have a cz 452 which is a .22 that shoots really well. Some of the cz's have single set triggers which can be a handy thing to have. That would be the only thing that I do to mine differently. To give you an idea on how well it shoots, the next step is 5 under .25 at 100 yards. I've have hit 5 in .30. Get the cz you will be pleased.

I've a CZ527 standard model, .223, made in 1994, with synthetic stock by whoever imported them back then, with 3-9x Leupold Compact scope. Makes for a handy walking rifle, and it will shoot way better than I am able to hold! If memory serves me correctly(?), the same factory that makes barrels for Steyr rifles, also make barrels for CZ, drop forged barrels? And Steyr is well known for their accuracy - CZ's that I've used have also shown excellent accuracy. The CZ 527 action is a scaled down size action, proportionate for the .22 Hornet, .223, .204, etc., instead of a full size action such as Savage, Windychester, Remington 700, actions used for their .30-06 and larger size cartridges, yet chamber them for the .223 size cases. Meaning, the full size action rifles weigh more than the CZ 527 rifles using the .223 (if that is the c'tridge you select to use?). so if a walking/stalking type of rifle is of importance with you, then the smaller action rifle will weigh less, and also be a bit handier/less bulky, in the field.

Interesting how many folks recommend a brand of rifle then say throw the stock trigger away and get a Timney or rifle basix or...throw the factory stock away and install something else.

Get the CZ 527, Keep everything, set the set trigger at 4 to 6 ounces and the standard trigger at 2 to 3 pounds and just enjoy the half inch and smaller groups. The Varmint model weighs 7.2 pounds with the wood stock. My comparable varmint model Rem 700 short action 243 weighs 9 and 3/8 pounds and is just to heavy by the time you add a scope to be a walk around rifle. Oh and the CZ shoots better groups.

Here's the skinny on the 204. It shoots as flat as the 22-250 or the 220 Swift and kills coyotes just as well and recoil forces are so low you can watch your bullets hit or miss if that's the case thru the scope. It's probably the best varmint cartridge to come on the market in the last 50 years. Shoot the 32 grainers for ground squirrels or PD's at 4200 fps and the 35's, 39's or 40's for coyotes at around 4000 fps.

Where a 223 is a good 300 yard coyote rifle the 204 is a good 400 yard plus coyote rifle.

Oh all the CZ centerfires now come with the single set trigger including all their big game 550 models.

You can get the varmint models in wood, laminate or Kevler stocks and the American lightweight model in several woods including maple and high grade walnut. Here's where to look at them.

http://www.cz-usa.com/

Here's where to get a look at realistic prices.

http://www.whittakerguns.com/

Nothing wrong with other brand guns use what you like, that's what makes the world go around. Lots of folks with other brands are happy with them and most of the big makers have jumped on the 204 bandwagon. Just keep in mind that if you do 15 coyote sets a day the 11 pound rifle needs wheels by the end of the day and if it doesn't shoot any better than the 8.5 pound rifle why are you packing the extra weight.

ok thanksa lot
i think im guna wait to get this rifle till after i move so i can get the cz...
i like the way they look and the prices arnt horrible

In my experience varmits could care less how pretty or how expensive a rifle is. All they worry about is how aucurate it is. "Nuf" said.

Varmits don't care how much a rifle costs or how tricked out it is, they just worry about how accurate it is. "Nuf" said.

Please don't double post htshot.

If you'll note below the question wasn't if the rifle was "tricked out", but what gun, cal and mfg is the best for varmint hunting.

hey everyone i was wondering what the best gun cal. and manufacture is the best for hunting coyotes, musk rats, and prairie dogs? I will not be reloading dont have time. so i was wondering whats the best gun out there for the money, as well as a good scope for it. please help...

Your absolutely right about accuracy though. The minute of deer open sighted 30-30 will have some real problems with coyotes and coke bottle sized ground squirrels at 300 yards. On the other hand rifles set up for shooting hundreds of rounds a day at PD's from portable bench rests aren't really suited for plinking called coyotes from 10-15 calling sets a day even though both require excellent accuracy.

At this time I shoot several varmint rifles and there's even some inexpensive glass on them. The CZ 204 has a very inexpensive Simmons 3 by 9 on it and in the spring an old Japanese Tasco 8 by 32 target dot goes on it for ground squirrels. five shot groups run from dime size off the bench rest to Nickel size of the bipod. total investment in this gun is $525.00 I've got a friend with a Stevens he paid $269 for with a Tasco scope on it that groups the same, but I also have friends with $3000.00 in a rifle and they seem to like it just as well.

well thanks for all the help im going to look into the cz since ive eard so much about them... and i would like a gun on the cheaper side... the optics are more important to me...

well i went out and bought the remington sps varmint in 204. i pick it up on sun. i ordered the cabelas alaskan guide scope 4.5x14-52 i really like the quality on it so far just to put it on the gun, and then to go out and shoot it,,,
im super excited thanks for all the help... now just for the right ammo,,,

All of you realize, the most popular and practical little varmint rifle of all times, is the simple .22 rimfire. Theres a lot of snow in the Rockies this year. That means a lot of flooded ground squirrel burrows next spring. The shooting is going to be pretty good come April.

So here is my question as a point was brought up by a hunting partner and good friend of mine who is a avid reloader like me. What happens if we get the .204 ruger and is there going to be ammunition for it in 10yrs? He is also trying to tell me that for a coyote and squirrel gun that the .204 just don't have the knock down power out there about 300-400yrs. So I was set on getting a .204 but now I might be rethinking and going the 22-250.

The 204 is one of the most popular new varmint rifles on the market and it's not going to dissapear. So far I've shot seven coyotes this winter with my 204, several at 300 yards and one at 385 measured yards and besides a couple of spin and nips all were DRT with 40 grain bullets at 4000 fps. Hate to tell you, but your friend is wrong. Ground squirrels out to 200 yards are just a blue haze with the 32 grain bullets at 4250 fps and goop at ranges out to 400 yards which is as far as I've shot them.

Bottom line is I used a 22-250 for better than 30 years and a 243 for the last five and I can't tell any difference in trajectory or killing power between the 204 and the 22-250. The big advantage of the 204 is that you can watch your hits or better yet your misses thru the scope and adjust your next shot. You can't do that with the 250.

From my rather limited experience shooting coyotes, ground squirrels and Rockchucks over a little better than 45 years the 204 is one of the best varmint cartridges I've ever used. Nothing wrong with the 22-250, but it is more expensive to shoot. For the ultimate splat factor I shoot two different 243's with Nosler 55 grain ballistic tips at near 4000 feet per second. I've never even had a spin and nip with a coyote, just DRT with the 243.

Thanks because after reading all your raves about the .204 was one of the major reasons I was going this route and why I feared my friend was talking blind with out knowledge. Gun shops looking for a Ruger M77 Lefty .204 as we speak I got the dies coming. What powder would you recommend? I shoot reloader 22 for my 30-06 and my dads 300 Ultra Mag and his 22-250.

Thanks because after reading all your raves about the .204 was one of the major reasons I was going this route and why I feared my friend was talking blind with out knowledge. Gun shops looking for a Ruger M77 Lefty .204 as we speak I got the dies coming. What powder would you recommend? I shoot reloader 22 for my 30-06 and my dads 300 Ultra Mag and his 22-250.

Here's a place to look up loads from guys shooting the 204 and where I got mine.

http://rugerhunting.com/forum/index.php

I'm using 26.2 grains of Alliant 10X behind the 40 grain Hornedy V-max and 26.6 grains of 10X behind the 32 grain V-max. Remington Cases, CCI BR-4 primers. Start lower and work up .1 grain at a time. Those small cases built pressure fast. I'm getting very near factory ballistics and excellent accuracy. These 223 sized cases need a faster powder than the bigger cases your shooting for maximum efficiency.

I shoot the Hornedy simply because their the least expensive I can find in bulk and they both group well. You can get them in 250 size boxes. I use the 32's for ground squirrels and the 40's for coyotes. So far seven dogs down, two spin and nips and the rest DRT.

Here's another forum dedicated to predator hunting and lots of guys over there using the 204. Check out the forums section, lots of good info.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/

im actually setting up a H&R bull barrel in 223. its single shot but cheap-ish and accurate. but im getting a custom laminated thumbhole stock 4 it so it isnt that cheap anymore.

Hey remington708, I have not been paying enough attention to the forum lately.
I bought the Savage 12 FLV (204) in April of 07 and I put a B&L 6 X 18 on it and I love it.
I have not used it yet this winter but this past fall it was with me every time we went bird hunting. I shot 7 coyotes with it from 75 yards to over 400 yards if you can see it you will hit it.
The only thing I have some concerns with is the one shot kills on coyotes and I load my own 39gr. BLKs and when I bought the savage I wish they would supply a wagon (just kidding) but with a 26" barrel I guess you should expect it.

well sask boy,
as of right now i dont have the time to reload and wont be shooting it enough in southern california to need a ton of ammo... well anyways have you shot the winchester 34 gr. hollow point? i bought a bow of that to sight it in with and then i also got the hornady 32 and 40 gr. 11 box of each and then 1 box of the remington accutip in the 40 and 32 gr. so i have enough ammo to take it to the range the next couple of times...
but i was wondering what shot better in your gun and whats th better choice of ammo, because i was going to bu the bulk ammo at cabelas to save a little money in the long run, cus ammo keeps going up.
whats better the 32 gr. or the 40 gr.?
i am going to use this gun mostly for the smaller varmints such as prairie dogs in wy. and gophers in south and north dakota. as well as the occational coyote. i want to start coyote unting but im going to wait till i move to south dakota for that...
thanks for all the help...
and yeah a wagon would be nice with the gun...

Hey remington708, I have shot some factory out of the rifle and I found the 32gr.Vmax was real accurate. It states on the box that it goes over 4200 fps. I have not used a Chrony on it but guys I have talked with, state that it is pretty close.
There is a guy here in Saskatchewan which is just North of North Dakota that has 3 or 4 rifles in this caliber. He is known around here to be very knowledgable he stated that any rifle with 1-12 twist should use lighter bullets and he swears by the berger 35gr but I have yet to try them.
The 39gr BLKs that I have been using are nothing to sneeze at. I am going to mention another forum that I use (very liitle) and it is strictly 204 caliber guys it is called 204 ruger.com ( I hope I can tell you that ).
I would say majority of people use either 32gr bullets or the 39 gr. blk. I know that you can get factory Hornady with 39Gr Blks on top of them.
I hope this helps.

Man, I have to go with the .243 Winchester! Just the pure versatility of the gun qualifies it in my eyes. You don't have to handload to get a very wide range of bullet weights, or ballistics.

sask boy thanks a lot... i will definitly go out and buy another box of the 32 gr. vmax... to see how it shoots... thanks a lot for the help... im probably going to go to the shooting range in about a week or two..
but when i do ill let you know what shoots better,.. and ill try to find some of the berger 35 gr.

About 300 fps difference. The 223 has a shorter range than the 22-250. The new 204 Ruger shoots the same trajectory as the 22-250 and the 220 swift with less recoil than the 223.

For your use, not being a reloader the 223 is by far the best varmint rifle for cost of operation. I'd look carefully at the CZ 527's. Their designed around the 223 sized case and even the varmint model is light enough to make a really decent calling rifle. I just change out scopes between winter and summer.

By the way I have two of the Simmon's AETEC scopes and they are a great scope.

actually any ballistics chart will tell u the .204 ruger is pretty supreme to the .22-250, almost 4 iches less drop at 300 yards, and from 100 yards to 200 yards the .204 drops like 3/10's of an inch, a lot less powder soif u plan to shoot ur ammo by the hundreds ur barrell will last a lot longer with a .204 ,and the last time i checked cheapo .204's were $18 for twenty and around $24 for the .22-250, but i reload, i see barnes amkes a 26 garin bullet for the .204 anyone know about that

no, the .204 has a flatter trajectory, less recoil, and higher velocity than the .22-250, and longer barrell life, which wont heat up as fast with less powder, and it costs a little less

No argument there savager. The 204 is my gun of choice for a varmint rifle. I'm shooting the CZ 327 Varmint and load both the 32's and the 40 grain V-Max's with Allliant 10X, Remington cases and CCI BR-4 primers. I'm a little under factory specs but here's how it shoots. Besides I don't like making the folks with 22-250's and Swifts feel velocity challenged.

First target is a hundred yards off the sitdown bipod with a 3 by 9 by 50 Simmons scope.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/Targets/targetstoday-20.jpg

Second is off my portable bench rest and lead sled with an old Tasco 8 by 32 target dot scope. I kinda blew two of those. This was the first groups shot with this rifle when I sighted it in.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/Targets/CZ52720440grHorn09-09-063.jpg

i just orderd a savage model 12bvss in .204, the .204 has the recoil of a .22 hornet and a flatter trajectory than the .22-250, and less affected by wind, but for a gun definitely go with either a savage model 12 or their predator series, the predator is nice, and medium heavy barrel but i cant stand the mossy-oak bush paint scheme which is the only available for it, but some peopel like it

The nice thing about the Savage is in about 15 minutes with a barrel vice, barrel nut wrench and a go gauge you can change out a barrel, headspace it and be shooting. What a nice deal for folks that want to fiddle around with several different calibers.

Just think you could have a 7mm-08 for deer hunting and in 15 minutes stick on a 338-08 barrel for an elk rifle. Shoot your 204 for long range ground squirrels and stick on a 6mm BR barrel for the local bench rest match.

Gosh, to little money and to many desires.

for powder loads varget works pretty good, and n-140 and h-380, and from all the hype im pretty sure just a hornady 32 grain v-max works as good as any

i have easily put down coyotes at 300-400- yards with ease using both the 34 gr JHP and hte 40 gr hornady, when the dogs come in close ive found the hornady is betteer, it doesn't have to be the 40 gr, but the JHP tear up the fur too bad, if your fur hunting, i shot one at about 25 feet and it tore about a 6" cirlce in his fur. i will admit the ammo gets pricy, the cheapest ive found, unless u buy in bulk is at Wal mart for hte Winchester JHP in 34 gr for under 16 a box of 20, my dad has a 22-250 and it is a great shooter too, but the 204 is a ton of fun on the very small game like the muskrats.

ill agree im very happy with mine, but mine prefers the 32 grain sierra blitzkings, more than the hornadies, but its pretty cold where i live, so im just shooting for precision groups right now, but my vote is for the .204, they pent a lot of time developing this bullet for varmints and predators, and that is just wat its for

I don't post much, but this conversation has convinced me to pick up a CZ 527 Varmint in .204 that my dealer has. Thanks to all for sharing!

it sounds like your reloading is all paying off...
i hope i can start in a year or so... dont have the time with college...
but when i do ill be sure to ask all of you for help...
all your input has made me want to go out and buy another gun...
what next?
i already have a 204 sps v.
700 adl 243
mod 7 260
mod 7 7-08
700 30-06
rem 22 pump
and single shot 22...
what now? any ideas...

I thought a long time about my choice of a new varmint caliber and rifle. I was looking real hard at the .204 caliber, especially when I saw two young fellows at our gun club shoot their rifles one saturday afternoon. These fellows put 85% of their 100 yard groups into .350 MOA or less.

However, after thinking about a rifle I used to own and wish I had never gotten rid of, I decided to go the route of a new CZ model 550 American (clip feemagazine) bolt rifle in the .222 Remington caliber, known for years as the "Triple Deuce". I shot up almost 2 boxes of shells with the new rifle that day. Most 3 shot groups stayed well under .500 MOA and that is plenty good enough for this varmint hunter.;)

I guess I'll have to start looking at the .204. I always thought that the .223 was a pretty nice round, but so many guys are talking up the .204 that it does look mighty intresting.

Getting back to rifles, a friend of mine bought a Remington 700 VS in .223 with a Burris Fullfield 3x9 variable scope, and we took it out to zero it for him at a measured 100 yard bench. He was shooting to zero, I was just shooting for groups. Brand new, out of the box after we'd put a few rounds through it, I was shooting sub MOA groups. (He was shooting about 3" groups - it had NOTHING to do with the rifle. ;) ) I thought that it was a pretty dandy varmint gun.

I like the look of the Sako 75 Varmint too, but I don't really like the look of the price tag. :D However, if I did have the dinero for that one, I'd probably get it in .223.

I think you might have mistaken which CZ rifle you have, considering that CZ doesn't market the 550 in the 222 caliber. Are you sure the rifle you have isn't a 527 model?

That's the only rifle they market in 222 and it comes with a clip feed. The 222 is an excellent cartridge with great inherent accuracy and until some of the specialty bench rest cartridges came along was the top bench rest cartridge for many years.

The smallest caliber the 550 comes in is the 22-250. Here's where you can check to identify which rifle you have.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products_bigbore_rifles.php

http://www.cz-usa.com/products_smallbore_rifles.php

Here's a pix of the 527 American version and the second pix is of my 527 Varmint model. Great little guns both of them.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/CZ5272-vi.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/CZ527-204-2.jpg

i have almost that same line-up, so my next rifle would be a .338 federal, you should check it out ti has the recoil of a .30-06 but one hellacious bullet and knock-down power, but thats for bear, and caribou, but i dont know what else you can get at the lower end of ur centerfire spectrum

I am looking at a new Howa in 204 with a Houge stock. Any one have any experience with one?

i have almost that same line-up, so my next rifle would be a .338 federal, you should check it out ti has the recoil of a .30-06 but one hellacious bullet and knock-down power, but thats for bear, and caribou, but i dont know what else you can get at the lower end of ur centerfire spectrum

savager.204,
ive been looking at getting a 300 weatherby my dad has one and i love it, but i shot a friends 33-378 and that thing was awsome...
ive got the small deer and antelope covered, but i really want a long range rifle for elk and deer... i took a mule deer last year with a 300 weatherby mark v delux but we hate taking it into the field... it gets about 5 shots through it a year... i dont have a ton of money right now with gas prices around here but my hours have doubled, and i got rid of the gf so that saves a ton of money. so within a few months ill have enough for a big gun with scope and all...

i really want to find the best cal. out there for my purposes...
ive been looking at the 300 weatherby, 33-378, and the 308.
but i also want a smaller caliber... for the varmints... i only got one of them... the 204,,, 243 doesnt really count cus i shoot the 100 gr. bought some 85 but dont know how theyl shoot.

I found wind with coming daylight out in west Texas, favor using a 243 Winchester. Any good varmint rifle will do well. Mine was a Remington. Today I seldom varmint hunt and when I do, I use my Browning 223 or if is will be long shots on Coyotes, I grab my 270 as it get the job done.

243 with a 1-10 twist will shot the light bullets well.

if you really like the sps the 300 winchester or ultra mag would do fine for you. i'm not sure if the 338 u.m. is available in the sps or not, but that would be a somewhat more economical version of the 338/378

i have to put in a vote with the 204 unless you don't reload then id go with teh 223 as it is much cheaper. I have a 204 in ruger m77 mark 2 with a 3-9 and honestly i wish i would have pu on a 2-7 when calling if you get them in super close as i like to do (5-50 feet) the 3 power even makes it for slower aquisition, if not i like to carry an open site pistol to put them down with, even a 22 mag work great in the pistol, i also like the rem 700 SPS as a varmint gun around $450

Everyone has their own opinion about rifles, but my favorite is Remington SPS Varmint in 243 with 55 gr Ballistic Tip Bullets, can go to 95 Gr Ballistic Tips and hunt Deer.