I am searching for some loading data on the .38 S&W black powder cartridge. This is for a 3.25" barrel "Baby Russian" .38 S&W manufactured in 1876. The gun is in excellent mechanical condition.

Thank you for any assistance you can offer!

I'd not use smokless...even though modern loadings aren't supose to be over BP pressure, I have my doubts about that.

Black powder would be the "corect" loading, although some of the modern substitute BP's would work just as well. Can ignore the original black powder loading (listed as everything from 11 to 15gr.) as those old thin balloon head cases are long gone. In modern brass, there is room for 8 to 10gr. of powder. To keep presures even lower (and vel. lower too) will sometimes use FFg. Pyrodex RS seems to generate pressures about equal to FFg.

Black powder wants to be somewhat compressed, but not crushed...so the exact amount of power is going to be set by how deeply the bullets are seated...and that is dependent on the length of the bullet.

Measrue the bores of these old guns, the .38SW can be as large as .361" in some of them...usually running a whole lot coloser to .359" in more modern versions.


Black powder loads like very soft bullets. Soft bullets aren't the easiest to find for sale. May have to cast them.

Lube made for BP is prefered.

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One load that duplicates an old listing for a .38SW "gallery load" has been a lot of fun. Primed case, 4 to 5gr. FFFg, ball lseated deep in the case/right on top of the powder, lube squirted on top of the seated ball. Can find OOO buck, which is the right size and hardness for this kind of loading.

Lube for the above load iis non-critical... cheap/basic vegetable shortening works as well as anything else in cool weather.

Depending on brass, will try to get the powder charge to where the top of the ball ball seats just about flush to the case mouth...which is why it's 4 to 5gr., as some cases are bigger than others.

Dear Ribbonstone:

Thank you very much for providing this information. My search for such info has not been easy, and I look forward to loading some ammunition for this antique, yet very mechanically sound, little gun. The craftsmanship of this piece is of much nicer quality than I've seen in many modern firearms.

You indicate that the smokeless loads for this cartridge, and I've located many, are not correct for this firearm. Such smokeless loads tend to keep pressures at around 150 with muzzle velocities at 580 to 600. Is this what I might expect from the BP load? I've located one website which details numerous loads for this cartridge, giving data on both breaktop and non-breaktop models (http://www.reloadammo.com/38sw.htm). However, these are all smokeless loads, and I would like to remain consistent with what this gun was made for (black powder). My research has also shown that this cartridge was used in several non-breaktop revolvers well into the 1950s, later being revised as the .38 New Police. You mention the "gallery load"; was this for the Baby Russian, or just a generic load for any .38 S&W? I'm wondering what chamber pressures this gun was built to handle.

Also, you mention that the "old balloon rimmed" brass is not readily obtainable. Do you happen to know of a manufacturer who might have this brass? I would really like to stay as original as possible. Also, if I found such brass, do you feel there would be sufficient die adjustment to accomodate it?

Again, thank you. I look forward to loading some ammunition for this little piece of history and enjoy shooting it, even with the lightest of loads. Just my little "step back in time".


I'd not use smokless...even though modern loadings aren't supose to be over BP pressure, I have my doubts about that.

Black powder would be the "corect" loading, although some of the modern substitute BP's would work just as well. Can ignore the original black powder loading (listed as everything from 11 to 15gr.) as those old thin balloon head cases are long gone. In modern brass, there is room for 8 to 10gr. of powder. To keep presures even lower (and vel. lower too) will sometimes use FFg. Pyrodex RS seems to generate pressures about equal to FFg.

Black powder wants to be somewhat compressed, but not crushed...so the exact amount of power is going to be set by how deeply the bullets are seated...and that is dependent on the length of the bullet.

Measrue the bores of these old guns, the .38SW can be as large as .361" in some of them...usually running a whole lot coloser to .359" in more modern versions.


Black powder loads like very soft bullets. Soft bullets aren't the easiest to find for sale. May have to cast them.

Lube made for BP is prefered.

---------
One load that duplicates an old listing for a .38SW "gallery load" has been a lot of fun. Primed case, 4 to 5gr. FFFg, ball lseated deep in the case/right on top of the powder, lube squirted on top of the seated ball. Can find OOO buck, which is the right size and hardness for this kind of loading.

Lube for the above load iis non-critical... cheap/basic vegetable shortening works as well as anything else in cool weather.

Depending on brass, will try to get the powder charge to where the top of the ball ball seats just about flush to the case mouth...which is why it's 4 to 5gr., as some cases are bigger than others.

The old style cases were a much weaker design, thinner and much less metal that the primer pocket end of the case. Weak, but more volume, and strong enough to safely contain powder loadings (no one really cared about reloading case life, but those old balloon heads were short lived).

The traditonal 146gr. 38SW bullet has little of the bullet seated inside the case...which also adds to case volume. Most modern 38cal. bullets seat more of the bullet in the case with less sticking out...reduces volume, but with smokeless loads that's not really a problem.

Have a problem with smokeless loads in old BP guns. Even if the pressure is rated the same as black powder, how that pressure is applied seems different. I really prefer not to use smokeless loads in BP guns, but if I had to, would stay with the lowest pressure/vel. loads I could.

reasoning for the above is:
1. It's an antiques, so i seriously doubt it got anby stronger with age and wear no matter how well kept.
2. It's never going to be a power house...so why try?
3. Hopefully you didn't buy that revolver as a defence gun...and there is no good reason to over stress an old gun just for the fun of it.

You will find that the .38SW is a very accurate little round (although the old thin style sights are way too small and skinny by today's standards).

Consider that that BP loads are what it was made to shoot, and it seems to have survived fine with those for a long-long time...proably better to let the old girl stay on her BP diet.

RS is absolutely correct about the "pressure application" more correctly stated as the "time/pressure curve". BP builds pressure slowly and evenly, most light loads of fast burning smokeless powders have an extremely short time/pressure curve. Boiling it down, it's like comparing firing a ball from a sling shot vs. smacking it with full swing from a golf club.

Some companies were offering balloon head cases in .45-70 and .38-55 for a while but as far as I know all production and sales of them have stopped because of liability issues. You're better off with modern cases anyway because on modern reloading presses, you're likely to destroy the balloon head brass anyway.

RS covered most things, a few more I'll add...

NEVER EVER allow any air space between the base of the bullet and the powder!!!!!!

Pour the powder measured by volume (not weight) into the case slowly so it settles itself. When finding the correct powder column hight so the bullet seats snugly on top of it, tap the case to ensure the powder is fully settled in the case so air space cannot open up after the bullet is seated - adjust powder charge accordingly as necessary.

You don't want the bullet crushing the powder, just seated snug on top of it to prevent air space.

3F (FFF) granulation will work best in this low volume case. Do NOT run it through a powder dropper, either pour it from the can via a spout into the measure or dip it from an open-top container with the measure (the little Lee dippers are quite handy for this work)

As RS also said, soft lead is going to likely work best but you may get away with using strait wheel weight (WW) alloy...all depends on what the gun likes or doesn't like.

You want a mild crimp, enough to securely hold the bullet but not so much as to cause it to be deformed, taper crimp is best and you need very little, just enough to ensure the bullets cannot back out under recoil.

Prior to shooting, wipe the chambers, outside of cylinder and bore down with BP lube, this will help prevent the fouling from sticking so bad.

What a great little project this has turned-out to be. I love to learn, and you both have provided some excellent information.

I will certainly stick to blackpowder. Now, getting it is another thing. No store seems to sell it. GOEX will sell it directly, but in 5 lb. lots or greater. Buying 10 lbs. is more economical, but I sure hate having that much explosive around the house. If you know of anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area who can sell some FFFg, let me know. I'd much rather spend $20 for a pound of powder than $150 for 10...that'll take me YEARS to burn up.

Here's what I've found so far with y'all's help:

1) .38 S&W brass by Starr ($16/hundred). (http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Categoryid=7464&categorystring=9315***652***670***9014***)

2) Bullet mould: 158 gr. .360" (Lyman #358311). (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/pbulleta.htm)

3) Lee Pro-IV lead smelter on eBay, new for about $65 including shipping. (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-LEE-LEAD-MELTER-MELTING-PRODUCTION-POT-IV-NEW_W0QQitemZ130172948191QQihZ003QQcategoryZ7308QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

4) Also found some excellent Lee Carbide .38 S&W 3-set dies for only $22 on the Midway site (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=209266&t=11082005). And...get this...the expanding die allows you to pour powder from the top via a scoop. Sounds just like what I need here. This way, I can calculate by volume rather than weight. And the Lee seat die allows for a slight taper to full scroll crimp. Other die sets don't offer these features at more than twice the price.

From what I've learned, seems this list will get me up and running properly. Hopefully by New Year's, I'll be loading-up some genuine .38 S&W Blackpowder ammuntion for my Baby Russian. Again, thank you very much for the assistance!

If you have trouble finding genuine black powder, the local Walmarts here in PA sell Pyrodex. That might be worth a try.

Rich,

Just a little FYI, the .358311 mold from Lyman will generally drop soft lead (almost pure) bullets at only 0.356" diameter with a weight of around 165gr. If you add about 0.5% Sn (tin) it'll bump the as-cast diameter up to 0.3575" to 0.358". The softer (more pure) the lead alloy is, the more shrink it has when cooling in the mold.

You can space the blocks apart by installing a piece of shim stock between them to achieve the desired diameter, the bullets won't be perfectly round when cast but they will be once they get shoved into the barrel. The other option is lapping the mold cavity out large enough to drop the desired diameter.

As RS points out, the original bullet was 146-148 grains. Lee has 358-140-SWC which is closer in weight to what you want, using the soft alloy will bump you up a few grains in weight putting you right in the ballpark of where you want to be. Granted it's a SWC nose and not the traditional RN though. Another plus for the Lee mold is that they are made from free-machining aluminum and are much easier to lap than the iron Lyman molds...drawback is that they're also easier to screw up but another plus is the much lower price - give and take on both sides.

If memory serves me, the .38 S&W case is tapered on the inside like the .45 colt cases, this could lead to additional problems trying to seat the heavier bullet to the proper depth because it slightly longer.

Might get lucky with that 358311 mold, although most of the modern molds cast near their listed diameter, some are a bit large. Keep in mind that most old molds cast large, so if you end up wanting a different mold, search the 'net for an older mold (these often cast fustratingly large for modern shooters...which is perfect for you). Just cast a few, measure them, and plan on using them at whatever diameter they are as cast...no sizing.

Modern cases are tapered, but I've found it not to be a problem seating the same bullets you plan on using to the crimp groove. One test is to seat the bullet...you'll notice if it gets extra difficult to seat near the end...then pull the bullet and measure the base diameter. It's possible that the case taper will swaged the base down into a slight boat tail, but BP and soft lead is pretty forgiving of small diameter problems like that.

Richard,
Nice vintage pistol you have there! Here's a picture of an early .38 S&W black powder box which indicates the 15 gr, powder charge.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/38SW.jpg

As was mentioned, those cases would be of the long ago obsolete balloon head style which will hold more b.p. but in reality, only about about 1 1/2 grs. more than modern brass. Most likely, the factory used at least .10" of powder compression in mfg'g them.

As Ribbonstone indicated, the factory bullet protrudes very little into the case, thus adding capacity. There was a "Group Buy" earlier this year for a 6 cavity Lee custom bullet mold to make .38 S&W bullets (below) over on the "Cast Boolits" forum.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/38SWgroupbuy.jpg

That is now closed and the molds have been shipped. Perhaps if you contact "Happy7" who was the honcho, maybe he would sell you some bullets(?).
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=15478

Good luck with your project.

John

Excellent post...nice bullets.

There is one more bullet that works rather well, but is increasingly hard to find. The factory (WW/Rem.) swaged lead 158gr. RNL bullet has worked pretty well in some of the revolvers tried. While finding that soft lead bullet from WW or Rem. has gotten difficult, noticed MagTec listed them (i've used it's little brother, the MagTech 98gr. .32 RNL bullet for BP .32SWL loadings).

IF you can find old stock WW, those were a bit softer and had a shallow hollow base. Actually, it was closer to "cupped" but it worked fine when tried. Being soft swaged lead, wasn't a real problem to crimp (lightly please) in the bullet's shank, seating a bit long...recoil isn't drastic, and none of them jumped crimp.

ribbonstone,
Thank you for the kind words.

I dissected one of a couple of .38 S&W factory black powder rounds that I had and found that the factory had used .15" of compression on the 15 gr. charge of b.p. With current brass, 13.5 grs. of b.p. would require the same amount of compression. Bullet seating depth would be .22" in both cases.

When loading b.p. ammunition, compression can easily be done with the neck expanding die, or with the bullet, if it's hard enough (w.w. alloy).

John