Hi, I'm new to the forum and I have a question that i hope I can get advice on. Here goes, I"m looking at gettin a new varmit rifle to use on prarie dogs to ground hogs to coyotes. I want Medium rangE to 800 or so yds, I won't be reloading and cost of shells is not really a concern. I've had my eye on either a .204 Ruger or .243 WSSM. My friend just picked a 243 over the 204 but i'm not sure yet. I already own a 22-250, 220 swift which are great but want something with more distance and power. Any help would be great. Thanks!

For 800 yards, I think you have to go with the .50 BMG.

The 204 is a great choice for moderate ranges. Might check out the thread a couple below this one titled "Best Predator Gun".

I think though at much past 400-500 yards the 204 just runs out of steam and is really affected by the environment due to it's low BC. I haven't jumped on board with the WSSM's yet. How bout a good old fashoned 243 but still not sure how they act at 800 yards.

If you want a long range small bore caliber might look at the 243 Ackley improved but you'd have to reload to shoot that one.

Welcome to the forum PigBuster84. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

I'm a 204 fan, but Bulldawg is right about it's ranges. For 30 plus years I used a 22-250, but it's not an 800 yard rifle either. The last five years I shot a 243, but with varmint weight bullets I wouldn't call it an 800 yard rifle either, perhaps with V-max heavy match bullets.

I simply don't know what to recommend. I'd think about some of the dedicated sniper type rifles in the 6.5-284 designed for thousand yard competition for any consistent kills at those kind of ranges. Ammo is now commercially available.

Once you get to the 800 to thousand yard bracket rifles designed for consistent hits on small targets become very expensive. Not only that but there is a difference in rifles designed to kill at those distances and those designed to punch holes in paper. You might take a look at some of the long range shooting forums on line. There are folks doing exactly what your talking about. Good luck with your quest for that super long range rifle and again welcome to the board.

For years I shot a .264 Mag with a 6 X 18 scope at Jackrabbits and Ground Squirrels but I sure wouldn't call it an 800 yard rifle. I don't think you are going to find one.

Be aware the .243 WSSM is still having teething problems - hard to get proper feeding from magazine to chamber. This is from personal observation of shooters at our range. Several are ready to try another cartridge.

As stated, varmit shooting from 300 yds to 800 yds will require a bit more than the .204's, 22-250's or .220 Swift cartridges. Not saying it can't be done, but the results are certainly iffy.

A standard .243 Win, a 6mm Rem or the 6mm/284 might be of consideration. the 6mm/284 is strictly a handloading proposition, though. A .257 Weatherby might also make a good one.

I'd take a look at what the thousand yard bench rest shooters are using. Best guess is a large capacity 6.5mm with a fast twist for the heaviest possible bullets.

Good luck to you.

is a 25-06 a possibility?

Hey thanks for some of the insight guys i appreciate it. I think I'm gonna end up going with a .204, something inside is telling me to pick it and like i sid my friend got the 243wssm so i gotta be different! I guess if i want my 800yd shot i should just break out the 7mm stw and go for broke.

is a 25-06 a possibility?

Ya know i have a little 25-06 and i never occured to use it for this application. It is a flat shooting gun too. thanks!

What about the old kill'em all .270?

What about the old kill'em all .270?

You been reading old Jack O'Connor articles again? According to the old articles that I have read, he thought the .270 with 110 grain bullets were one of the best varmit loads out there.

As an aside, I just bought a single shot, medium weight barrelled .270 with a 26 inch tube. I am definitely going to have to load up some light bullet .270 loads for the long range shots on the next prarie dog hunt.

JWK

You been reading old Jack O'Connor articles again? According to the old articles that I have read, he thought the .270 with 110 grain bullets were one of the best varmit loads out there.

As an aside, I just bought a single shot, medium weight barrelled .270 with a 26 inch tube. I am definitely going to have to load up some light bullet .270 loads for the long range shots on the next prarie dog hunt.

JWK
I don’t know who he is but will look him up.
I just thought since there is an extensive load variety for the .270 and its proven track record in my own hands over the years it may better meet the requirements for an all round critter/game killer.
I’ve used one among other good calibers to shoot everything from chipmunks to even mule deer and everything in between.

I'm looking for a simular setup myself. I already use a factory rem 700 in 243 and a factory win 70 in 300 wsm for shooting stuff out to the 400 mark. For shooting 400 and less at deer, woodchucks, and other varmits one just needs a solid shooting rifle, both of mine stay under moa at 200 yards. MOA accuracy is fine till you start getting past 400. At 800 moa is an 8 inch circle, for varmits imo you should have half that or less. And its getting one of those rigs that costs the money. Not only do you need to spend the money on the rifle, but you need to get a good scope with high mangification just to see the critters. I'm expecting to have the better part of $3000 spent in building mine by the time I true the win's action, add a precision target barrel, add a mcmillan stock, fit everything together, cyro it, and scope it.

I don’t know who he is but will look him up.
I just thought since there is an extensive load variety for the .270 and its proven track record in my own hands over the years it may better meet the requirements for an all round critter/game killer.
I’ve used one among other good calibers to shoot everything from chipmunks to even mule deer and everything in between.


Wow! You must be in your twenties. Jack is to the .270 as Elmer Keith (you may need to look him up too) is to the 44 magnum. :) O'Connor was "the" outdoor writer for Field & Stream when it and Outdoor Life were "THE" magazines for sportsmen.

There is basically no way you are going to hit anything accurately (except the dirt) at 800 yards with factory ammo...that said, I would go with a .264 Win Mag, a true overbore magnum designed with extreme long range performance in mind.

I've got a Rem 700 ADL in .204 that easily shoots .5 MOA at 400 yards, but thats my limit, I won't shoot past that, but it can be done.

There is basically no way you are going to hit anything accurately (except the dirt) at 800 yards with factory ammo...that said, I would go with a .264 Win Mag, a true overbore magnum designed with extreme long range performance in mind.

I've got a Rem 700 ADL in .204 that easily shoots .5 MOA at 400 yards, but thats my limit, I won't shoot past that, but it can be done.


Now that is a blanket statement and is not nessecarly accurate. Some factory loads are very accurate..I have posted several groups on this web site that were in the .3 to .5 MOA and they were all shot with factory loads.. The original poster stated that cost of loaded ammo was not a problem and companys like Supior Ammo load Custom ammo that iot is extremely accurate. Black Hills loads across the counter match grade ammo that is extremely accurate and many of the other ammo makers load premium ammo that is extremely accurate

Nope, I'll be forty in a month.
Found him and I find his writtings worthy of a good read.

in no way do i have expirience shooting at anything close to those kinda of ranges but isn't the 257 weatherby magnum still the flattest shooter out there. If i am wrong please correct me soon, that thing would push a heavy varmint light caliber bullet at wicked velocities. Just a thought, but since you are not reloading the forty to sixty dollar boxes of twenty might be a little bit of a turn off. My dad just bought five boxes from Midway and it cost him 266, that seems kinda outrageous to me. Well i am sorry i just kept rambling. All the best luck to you in your quest for the long range varmint getter.

Stuflysmurf

There are far too many variables to call one caliber the flattest or most accurate... the mathematics generally agree with a 6.5mm or 7mm bullet as the starting point, after that its anyone's game.

Anyway, as far as factory ammo is concerned, yes some is consistent enough to be worthy of punching long distance holes regularly, but most isn't. Through my own and many others research, they often use poor quality bullets and close enough powder charges that hinder accuracy. Also, when you throw in a case that isn't formed to your chamber, you can't get exceptional accuracy.

There are far too many variables to call one caliber the flattest or most accurate... the mathematics generally agree with a 6.5mm or 7mm bullet as the starting point, after that its anyone's game.

Anyway, as far as factory ammo is concerned, yes some is consistent enough to be worthy of punching long distance holes regularly, but most isn't. Through my own and many others research, they often use poor quality bullets and close enough powder charges that hinder accuracy. Also, when you throw in a case that isn't formed to your chamber, you can't get exceptional accuracy.


What mathematics are you refering to? If you mean BC, well useing Sierra as a guide the 6mm 107 grain SMK has a BC of.527 and is the highest bc bullet that Sierra makes in 6mm.
The 65mm or .264 bore the highest BC bullet that Sierra makes is the 142 grain SMK with a BC of .595
The 7mm bore the highest BC bullet that Sierra list is the 175 grain Spitzer Boat Tail and the BC is.533
The 30 Cal the highest BC bullet is the 240 grain SMK with a BC of .711
The .338 cal bullet with the highest BC is the 300 grain SMK and the BC is.768
The above figures were taken from the Sierra Edition V reloading manuel. Other manufacturers figure will vary somewhat but the trend will remain. That trend is that the highest BC bullets will be found in 30 and 338 caliber at this time

As for as unfireformed aminition not shooting exceptional accuracy, I guess that depends on what you call exceptional accuracy. My rifle shoots consistently in the mid to high .3 MOA (that mid to high three tenths minute of angle) and a friend of mines rifle will shoot smaller groups than will mine...IME good quality factory ammo shoots what I would define as exceptionaly accurate.. It appears that you do not call this exceptionaly accurate....

As for as unfireformed aminition not shooting exceptional accuracy, I guess that depends on what you call exceptional accuracy. My rifle shoots consistently in the mid to high .3 MOA (that mid to high three tenths minute of angle) and a friend of mines rifle will shoot smaller groups than will mine...IME good quality factory ammo shoots what I would define as exceptionaly accurate.. It appears that you do not call this exceptionaly accurate....[/QUOTE]


Friend,
If you have a rifle that is shooting consistantly in the .3MOA range with factory ammo, you have an absolute gem. That is the exception to the rule however, not the rule.

With a factory rifle and a trial of a number of various factory loadings (try different bullet weights as well as different brands) you are lucky if you get a rifle that will shoot MOA on a consistant basis with 3 shot groups. Keep in mind that the best guarentee that any manufacturer (not custom maker) is Weatherby's 1MOA guarentee on some of its rifles and 1.5MOA on all of its rifles. Remington, Ruger, Savage and Winchester (before it went under) did not give any guarentee at all. Try sending a rifle back to one of them complaining that it won't shoot better than 2MOA and see what they tell you.

I am not saying this to dispute what you are saying. I am simply pointing out that if you have found such a rifle, you have a good one beyond what you can regularly expect to find. If it is a 30-06, .308Win or a .270 and you want to sell it for approximately the cost of the same rifle new, drop me a note and we'll talk even if it is right handed (I'm a lefty but for a .3MOA rifle w factory ammo, I'll work a bolt wronghanded) ;) .

JWK

sako guarantees MOA five shoot group, that beats weatherby since they only guarantee three shot groups, sako's rifles don't leave the factory till they can preform that kind of accuracy

Nope, I'll be forty in a month.
Found him and I find his writtings worthy of a good read.

I would read Jack O'Connor, Elmer Keith and of the current generation of writers, Craig Boddington. O'Connor and Keith were diametrically opposed in their opinions concerning rifles. Keith regularly said that the .270, which O'Connor touted, was a "perfectly adequate coyote rifle".

Both were right and wrong depending upon what they were talking about on a given day. O'Connor was a much better writer (actually a journalism professor) while Keith was a relatively uneducated (but far from stupid) cowboy, hunting guide, rancher, etc. There also appears to have been personal bad feelings between the two. While it could have been manufactured to sell magazines (at one time they both worked for Peterson Publishing) but it sure looks like that was some real hard feelings between them to me.

I think you will find that Boddington's opinions are in the middle between the two of them. For some background, Boddington was just breaking into the gunwriting business at the tail end of O'Connor's and Keith's careers. If I recall correctly, he mentions proofreading both of their work in his early days.

That is regarding rifles. Concerning pistols, Elmer Keith is difficult to beat even now. I don't agree with everything that he says but if all I could have in the way of a handgun was a S&W629 4", I could do darn near everything that I need to do with a handgun, period.

Keep in mind that O'Connor's and Keith's writings will be dated on rifles and cartridges. They did not have the super premium bullets that we have now which do allow one to use a lighter rifle for a given task which is what much of these gentlemen's arguments were about.

Anyway, for those of you who have not discovered these gunwriters, they are wonderful reads as well as being informative. Throw in a bit of Jeff Cooper, Peter Capstick, the occasional Mas Ayoob, and your reloading manuals and you will have a pretty good gun library. Don't forget Xmas is around the corner and I bet you could convince your wife to buy you a book as opposed to a new tie if you find it on the web, print out the sale and leave it where she can find it.

JWK

here are some ballistics for the 22-250 vs 204 out to 800 yards the 204 carries more anergy out to 800 yards.

Name: .224 Cal, Hornady #22241 V-Max, 40 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.200
Bullet Weight: 40
Velocity: 4200
Target Distance: 250
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 4200 fps 1567 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds -0.61 in 4047 fps 1455 fpe 0.018 sec 0.06 in -0.58 in 0.06 in
50 yds 0.14 in 3899 fps 1350 fpe 0.037 sec 0.26 in -0.53 in 0.23 in
75 yds 0.76 in 3756 fps 1253 fpe 0.057 sec 0.60 in -0.44 in 0.54 in
100 yds 1.22 in 3618 fps 1163 fpe 0.077 sec 1.09 in -0.31 in 0.99 in
125 yds 1.51 in 3485 fps 1078 fpe 0.098 sec 1.75 in -0.13 in 1.56 in
150 yds 1.63 in 3355 fps 1000 fpe 0.120 sec 2.58 in 0.10 in 2.27 in
175 yds 1.54 in 3230 fps 927 fpe 0.143 sec 3.62 in 0.39 in 3.14 in
200 yds 1.26 in 3108 fps 858 fpe 0.167 sec 4.86 in 0.75 in 4.17 in
225 yds 0.75 in 2990 fps 794 fpe 0.191 sec 6.32 in 1.18 in 5.36 in
250 yds 0.00 in 2875 fps 734 fpe 0.217 sec 8.01 in 1.68 in 6.70 in
275 yds -1.02 in 2763 fps 678 fpe 0.243 sec 9.99 in 2.28 in 8.25 in
300 yds -2.33 in 2653 fps 625 fpe 0.271 sec 12.25 in 2.97 in 10.00 in
325 yds -3.93 in 2547 fps 576 fpe 0.300 sec 14.80 in 3.77 in 11.93 in
350 yds -5.87 in 2442 fps 530 fpe 0.330 sec 17.69 in 4.69 in 14.06 in
375 yds -8.17 in 2340 fps 486 fpe 0.361 sec 20.94 in 5.74 in 16.42 in
400 yds -10.90 in 2241 fps 446 fpe 0.394 sec 24.62 in 6.95 in 19.07 in
425 yds -14.07 in 2144 fps 408 fpe 0.428 sec 28.74 in 8.32 in 21.97 in
450 yds -17.69 in 2049 fps 373 fpe 0.464 sec 33.31 in 9.87 in 25.12 in
475 yds -21.82 in 1957 fps 340 fpe 0.501 sec 38.39 in 11.62 in 28.53 in
500 yds -26.50 in 1867 fps 310 fpe 0.540 sec 44.03 in 13.59 in 32.23 in
525 yds -31.93 in 1781 fps 282 fpe 0.582 sec 50.41 in 15.84 in 36.37 in
550 yds -38.12 in 1697 fps 256 fpe 0.625 sec 57.55 in 18.40 in 40.89 in
575 yds -45.07 in 1617 fps 232 fpe 0.671 sec 65.45 in 21.26 in 45.76 in
600 yds -52.79 in 1540 fps 210 fpe 0.718 sec 74.12 in 24.45 in 50.94 in
625 yds -61.48 in 1465 fps 191 fpe 0.768 sec 83.76 in 28.04 in 56.53 in
650 yds -71.33 in 1396 fps 173 fpe 0.820 sec 94.57 in 32.09 in 62.62 in
675 yds -82.45 in 1332 fps 158 fpe 0.875 sec 106.64 in 36.64 in 69.21 in
700 yds -94.81 in 1272 fps 144 fpe 0.933 sec 119.95 in 41.70 in 76.20 in
725 yds -108.60 in 1217 fps 131 fpe 0.993 sec 134.69 in 47.34 in 83.65 in
750 yds -124.03 in 1168 fps 121 fpe 1.056 sec 151.07 in 53.61 in 91.60 in
775 yds -141.12 in 1125 fps 112 fpe 1.122 sec 169.12 in 60.53 in 99.97 in
800 yds -160.01 in 1086 fps 105 fpe 1.189 sec 188.95 in 68.16 in 108.77 in


Load Data
~~~~~~~~~

Name: .204 Cal, Hornady #22006 V-Max, 40 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.275
Bullet Weight: 40
Velocity: 3800
Target Distance: 250
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 3800 fps 1282 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds -0.52 in 3698 fps 1215 fpe 0.020 sec 0.08 in -0.58 in 0.06 in
50 yds 0.31 in 3599 fps 1150 fpe 0.041 sec 0.31 in -0.52 in 0.20 in
75 yds 0.96 in 3501 fps 1089 fpe 0.062 sec 0.71 in -0.42 in 0.44 in
100 yds 1.44 in 3407 fps 1031 fpe 0.083 sec 1.29 in -0.26 in 0.78 in
125 yds 1.74 in 3314 fps 975 fpe 0.106 sec 2.06 in -0.06 in 1.24 in
150 yds 1.83 in 3223 fps 923 fpe 0.129 sec 3.03 in 0.21 in 1.81 in
175 yds 1.71 in 3135 fps 873 fpe 0.152 sec 4.21 in 0.53 in 2.50 in
200 yds 1.37 in 3048 fps 825 fpe 0.177 sec 5.60 in 0.92 in 3.29 in
225 yds 0.81 in 2963 fps 779 fpe 0.201 sec 7.22 in 1.37 in 4.20 in
250 yds 0.00 in 2879 fps 736 fpe 0.227 sec 9.09 in 1.91 in 5.23 in
275 yds -1.08 in 2797 fps 695 fpe 0.254 sec 11.23 in 2.52 in 6.42 in
300 yds -2.44 in 2717 fps 655 fpe 0.281 sec 13.66 in 3.23 in 7.75 in
325 yds -4.10 in 2638 fps 618 fpe 0.309 sec 16.37 in 4.04 in 9.22 in
350 yds -6.06 in 2560 fps 582 fpe 0.338 sec 19.39 in 4.95 in 10.82 in
375 yds -8.35 in 2484 fps 548 fpe 0.368 sec 22.74 in 5.96 in 12.58 in
400 yds -10.96 in 2409 fps 515 fpe 0.398 sec 26.41 in 7.10 in 14.46 in
425 yds -13.98 in 2335 fps 484 fpe 0.430 sec 30.49 in 8.37 in 16.55 in
450 yds -17.42 in 2263 fps 455 fpe 0.462 sec 34.99 in 9.79 in 18.84 in
475 yds -21.29 in 2192 fps 427 fpe 0.496 sec 39.92 in 11.36 in 21.33 in
500 yds -25.61 in 2122 fps 400 fpe 0.531 sec 45.30 in 13.11 in 23.99 in
525 yds -30.39 in 2053 fps 374 fpe 0.567 sec 51.13 in 15.02 in 26.82 in
550 yds -35.72 in 1986 fps 350 fpe 0.604 sec 57.53 in 17.14 in 29.90 in
575 yds -41.45 in 1919 fps 327 fpe 0.642 sec 64.32 in 19.42 in 33.07 in
600 yds -47.90 in 1854 fps 305 fpe 0.681 sec 71.82 in 21.97 in 36.57 in
625 yds -55.08 in 1791 fps 285 fpe 0.723 sec 80.06 in 24.80 in 40.39 in
650 yds -63.00 in 1730 fps 266 fpe 0.766 sec 89.05 in 27.91 in 44.48 in
675 yds -71.68 in 1671 fps 248 fpe 0.810 sec 98.78 in 31.32 in 48.84 in
700 yds -81.12 in 1613 fps 231 fpe 0.856 sec 109.28 in 35.03 in 53.44 in
725 yds -91.33 in 1556 fps 215 fpe 0.903 sec 120.55 in 39.06 in 58.26 in
750 yds -102.31 in 1501 fps 200 fpe 0.952 sec 132.59 in 43.42 in 63.29 in
775 yds -114.56 in 1449 fps 186 fpe 1.003 sec 145.90 in 48.26 in 68.78 in
800 yds -127.92 in 1399 fps 174 fpe 1.055 sec 160.32 in 53.54 in 74.60 in

sako guarantees MOA five shoot group, that beats weatherby since they only guarantee three shot groups, sako's rifles don't leave the factory till they can preform that kind of accuracy

Thanks for the info. Didn't know that SAKO had such a guarentee.

JWK

yeah it seems that up there they are making some pretty nice rifles, almost got one this year but my dad wanted to buy me something else. too bad!

Studlysmurf

270 wsm. 90gr.sierras' RE-19-70.0gr. vel-3600fps. flat shooting, hard hitting, light rec. good on coyotes,pdg's ect.

here are some ballistics for the 22-250 vs 204 out to 800 yards the 204 carries more anergy out to 800 yards.

Name: .224 Cal, Hornady #22241 V-Max, 40 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.200
Bullet Weight: 40
Velocity: 4200



Is
4200FPS out of a 223 really realistic??

My favorite new toy is my Alexander arms 6.5 Grendel. Swarovski (6X24X50). I can use it on predators and easily doubles as a deer rifle. Check out the Gunblast.com write up. Best wishes to all.

Regards

Texxsonn

If I had to try that, I'd start with a 7mm Rem Ultra Mag, or even try to wildcat a 6mm or 6.5 RUM. The .270 is just over hyped and out of date. I'm anti-anything based on or around a .30-06. :D You ain't shooting unless your shoulder is bruising...lol