I'm a new member. I love wildcatting in WSSM cartridge. Just built 3 win. 70's in .358 cal. on douglas barrels. I'm working on load dev. right now. using 180g. horn. sp bullet, 44 gr. benchmark and getting around 2700 fps. This bullet is Indiana legal this year for deer hunting.

I'm a new member. I love widcatting in WSSM cartridge. Just built 3 win. 70's in .358 cal. on douglas barrels. I'm working on load dev. right now. using 180g. horn. sp bullet, 44 gr. benchmark and getting around 2700 fps. This bullet is Indiana legal this year for deer hunting.
How do you like the douglas barrel im building a 30-378 weatherby with a 30" barrel it still under construction but need feed back on barrel quality

douglas barrels that i've used so far are pretty accurate. I've used 6 of there barrels so far.

Anyone out there with any good load sugguestions out there let me know.

How do you like the douglas barrel im building a 30-378 weatherby with a 30" barrel it still under construction but need feed back on barrel quality
I have 3 from them. 30-06, 243 and I had send them an action since I didn't have the reamer, for a .375X284.
Groups as ragged holes when you do your part of load developing.
In other words...GREAT Barrels.
I'm still deciding on my next project on a Martini action for either .375/303 or .375/348 as a Lead "boolit" shooter!

I can recommend the Douglas Barrels! Since you want to build a "Barrel Burner", I would suggest to have the barrel "Cryo-Treated" since it would about double your barrel life.
http://www.thermtech.net/cryo-treat.html
http://www.onecryo.com/firearms.htm

I have 3 from them. 30-06, 243 and I had send them an action since I didn't have the reamer, for a .375X284.
Groups as ragged holes when you do your part of load developing.
In other words...GREAT Barrels.
I'm still deciding on my next project on a Martini action for either .375/303 or .375/348 as a Lead "boolit" shooter!

I can recommend the Douglas Barrels! Since you want to build a "Barrel Burner", I would suggest to have the barrel "Cryo-Treated" since it would about double your barrel life.
http://www.thermtech.net/cryo-treat.html
http://www.onecryo.com/firearms.htm
With 225 accubonds,

H335 most velocity, but wouldn't group
N530 good velocity, groups ok, Im using this
H322 No
R7 NO
H4198 good velocity, seemed spiky
primers didn't seem to make any diff.

After hunting season I will start working with this again. I think with 225's, some thing of varget speed but more dense will be about right.

With 225 accubonds,

H335 most velocity, but wouldn't group
N530 good velocity, groups ok, Im using this
H322 No
R7 NO
H4198 good velocity, seemed spiky
primers didn't seem to make any diff.

After hunting season I will start working with this again. I think with 225's, some thing of varget speed but more dense will be about right.
Youv got me wondering, have you been shooting a 358 wssm for a while? My win 70 has shot 3 deer between me and my 2 boys, and they have been 1 shot per deer. I could'nt be happier. Here are some of my loads.
180 grain hornady...........Win. 70 24" douglas barrel
imr 4198............44g.........2630fps
rl-7....................44g max..
AA2015..............50g.........2675fps
H4895..............48g..........2600fps
varget...............51g max....2600fps
N135.................51g...........not done testing yet
benchmark........48 g..........2640fps

This is some of the loads I'm working with at the moment.
The N135 shows some promise of hitting 2800 fps . I need to chron. this powder yet to see. Are you from Indiana? Why do you shoot this cartridge? I'm going to do a AR-15 in this cal. this winter. I've got 3 more Win 70 's to build right now.

lukehalee what kind of velocity are you getting. I started with the WSSM but went WSM cutdown and formed .358 Grant. It holds 1.5 grians more water than a .358 WIN. Chamber 1.625" trim 1.615". Only tried two powders right now. Reamer is set up for 225 GR. ACCU- Bond
IMR 4895 started to show pressure at 2600 FPS @ 90 deg.outside shot .5" goups at 2550 FPS.
BLC-2 2400 Fps 5 of 8 groups @.25" other 3 under .5' no pressure at all but case is full. Used this load for this year ran out of time. Going to try more powders after season. Opening weekend 8 pointer and 2 does. All three droped in their tracks. Shoulder shots through both shoulders on all 3 exit holes size of a quarter. Please keep me posted if you find any powders that get good vel. and groups. I'm in southern IN

lukehalee what kind of velocity are you getting. I started with the WSSM but went WSM cutdown and formed .358 Grant. It holds 1.5 grians more water than a .358 WIN. Chamber 1.625" trim 1.615". Only tried two powders right now. Reamer is set up for 225 GR. ACCU- Bond
IMR 4895 started to show pressure at 2600 FPS @ 90 deg.outside shot .5" goups at 2550 FPS.
BLC-2 2400 Fps 5 of 8 groups @.25" other 3 under .5' no pressure at all but case is full. Used this load for this year ran out of time. Going to try more powders after season. Opening weekend 8 pointer and 2 does. All three droped in their tracks. Shoulder shots through both shoulders on all 3 exit holes size of a quarter. Please keep me posted if you find any powders that get good vel. and groups. I'm in southern IN
Hey ,thanks for sharing the info I'll keep you posted on any new data. I read some of your other posts. Sounds very interesting. I fire formed all my brass out of 25 wssm brass and annealed the necks . I put 8 grs. of bullseye and filled case with long grain rice. Than inserted in rifle in upright position so rice don't fall out and fired. only lost 1 case out of 50. I'm from peru, IN. area.

sorry i forgot about this post.

i have only shot 200 and 225 grain bullets. the 200 were hornady interlocks and they didnt group.

partitions and accubonds are all around 3/4 inch.

the problem i have had is cases getting real tight too soon. i have learned that this is a std wssm issue.

in talking with some sharp ppl this is what i am hearing.

- brass is too hard and too thick. doesnt have the elasticity to come back
- large head diam puts more of the psi on the bolt head
- head to case length ratio has exceed good design. not enough case length grabbing chamber wall.
- extra large case diam removes enough barrel matl that barrels flex out, then come back and grab the case.

given all of that i am getting 358 win ballistics (2400 - 2450fps) and given indiana contraints, might be as good as we can do.

grant, like you, i ran out of time and have gone with N530 for now. I do want to try blc and 4895 and some imr i cant think of right now. maybe n540 also.

what was your reason for the wsm cases, capacity?

im in jasper, where are you? crane? i might have heard about you.

it does have 3 one shot kills so far.

any of you guys having the tight case problem?

sorry i forgot about this post.

i have only shot 200 and 225 grain bullets. the 200 were hornady interlocks and they didnt group.

partitions and accubonds are all around 3/4 inch.

the problem i have had is cases getting real tight too soon. i have learned that this is a std wssm issue.

in talking with some sharp ppl this is what i am hearing.

- brass is too hard and too thick. doesnt have the elasticity to come back
- large head diam puts more of the psi on the bolt head
- head to case length ratio has exceed good design. not enough case length grabbing chamber wall.
- extra large case diam removes enough barrel matl that barrels flex out, then come back and grab the case.

given all of that i am getting 358 win ballistics (2400 - 2450fps) and given indiana contraints, might be as good as we can do.

grant, like you, i ran out of time and have gone with N530 for now. I do want to try blc and 4895 and some imr i cant think of right now. maybe n540 also.

what was your reason for the wsm cases, capacity?

im in jasper, where are you? crane? i might have heard about you.

it does have 3 one shot kills so far.

any of you guys having the tight case problem?
No tight cases here. Shot some cases 10-12 times. Brass is thicker than standard. one of the guys i built gun for over heated cases when he annealed them. He had cases sticking in rifle, he had to beat them out with a dowel rod. When annealing I set cases on a piece of metal and only heat from shoulder up. Might be your problem. Keep info rolling that is the way we learn. Thanks, Ben

No tight cases here. Shot some cases 10-12 times. Brass is thicker than standard. one of the guys i built gun for over heated cases when he annealed them. He had cases sticking in rifle, he had to beat them out with a dowel rod. When annealing I set cases on a piece of metal and only heat from shoulder up. Might be your problem. Keep info rolling that is the way we learn. Thanks, Ben

I didn't anneal. Tried it on a few. I got my expanders from k and m and they worked well wo annealing. Only split one. What action and barrel are you using?

I didn't anneal. Tried it on a few. I got my expanders from k and m and they worked well wo annealing. Only split one. What action and barrel are you using?
I'm using a winchester mdl. 70 in a wssm. you can buy them for about $400.00 . they ussually come in 223 wssm or 25 wssm cal. I'm using douglas premium barrels. Best groups so far have been 5/8" using 45Gr of reloader 19. with 180gr hornadys. I loaded up some 200gr barnes bullets using 47.5gr of vit 135. If you look up 350 winchester in hornady reloading book you can pretty much follow it for loads , + or - a few grains. Maybe sat I can chrono these loads and check for accuracy. Do you think the 200grain bullets shoot better and are they more accurate? I'm pretty sure I can get 2800 fps with the 180gr hornadys.

The necks on the wssm cases showed alot of cracks or stress marks before expanding. Went with wsm brass and made the body longer and the neck shorter with a 40 deg. shoulder. Hornady made the forming and sizing dies. It's 4 step forming plus inside neck reaming, annealing,& fire forming. 100 peices of brass all formed good. 20 peices shot 12 times during testing. Annealing and inside reaming keeps necks nice. I called VihtaVuori and they suggested N530 & N540. That is my next step. The 225 Accu- Bond works perfect and very good accuracy. Barrels are Lilja 1 - 12"

lukehalee main reasons was bad brass and case capacity. I have had no problem with tight cases. Custom dies full length size . I did weight out brass, did primer pockets, and debur flash holes. I have got to over 2600 fps with 225 ACCU-bonds it was 90 deg out and showed very little pressure not tightest groups but would be fine for hunting. I am from Greenville and hunt privet land Northwest of English. I can e-mail you prints of my reamer if you want. JGS made the reamer Hornady has prints for forming & sizing dies. It's called .358 GRANT

I ran out of time and didn't get to do too much with the 200's, but for my high end A&B barrel, the Nosler 225's groups came immediately, so I went with them.

I mainly used faster powders because thats what I had, but reading the posts here, I will try some slower stuff.

Friend wants to buy my gun, so I will probably be building another one. Will go with a larger tenon and probably shilen or douglas for the next one.

Has anybody heard anything about cartridge rule revisions?

Lukehalee, I haven't heard of any, but here's where I look for info. http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/about/rules.html

Hey how did everyone do this hunting season? Did your 358's do their job? Any updates? I reloaded some more different loads , haven't had time to shoot yet. I plugged a 10 pt. 169 2/8 class buck at 150 yds. . He was coming right at me at a walk. Took shot right under the base of the neck. I dropped like a rock. I'm very pleased with the performance . I got 5 more rifles to build . Any stories? Boys got 2 does , 1 at 160 yds., the other at 60 yds. both were lung shots. They both were down before they went 50 yds.. My 12 yr. old just got a 8 pt. with my savage muzzle loader, his first deer.

I got a buck and doe, both under a 100yds. Both shots in the heart,,, I guess, nothing left of it. Both dropped with out a step. Friend borrowed my rifle and took a doe through the lungs. Ran 30 yds and dropped. I am building him one of these now.

I got my barrel back from white oak for my ar15 in the 358 cal. . It's all put together and ready to shoot. If I get time today I'll see if it fires and cycles. I hope i got the gas port hole the right size. It was a 25 cal. olympic arms and I took the the thing apart hoping to get this 358 wssm going for deer season. I'll let you'all know if it works out ok. Still waiting on 6 barrels coming from douglas for the win 70's.

Shot the ar 15 yesterday, man this is the rig! Every thing worked ,no glitchs . Shot 40 rounds using RL 19 , 46- 48 gr. ,groups around 1 1/2 " .I need to try some other powders to get groups together a bit. I got the douglas barrels yesterday. Last night put 1 win 70 rifle together and got another 1/2 done. Any one been shooting any?

Anyone wanting a win 70 or a ar-15 in the 358 wssm let me know? I can build you one. I can furnish you reloading dies also.
Ben

Anyone wanting a win 70 or a ar-15 in the 358 wssm let me know? I can build you one. I can furnish you reloading dies also.
Ben

What are you asking for a gun?

sonex184 have you did anymore testing? I have did a little with N-530 & N-540 looks like it might work better than BLC-2 . Are you the only one you know of doing AR's ? If so I was told that you had seen one of my rounds. If not there is someone else doing AR's. Let me know how they are doing I know a few guy's that might like the AR's . I will send you a privite message with my E-mail If you can give me some info on them.
thank you
Derrick Grant

Grant, i've done some more testing, best load so far, using vit. n135, 180g h. bullet works great. benchmark 44 g will short shuck every now and then, but I'm happy with it so far. I'll be able to get back with you on price and availability. I can get you any amount of ar's you want once I can get barrels lined up. I've got a barrel manufacterer that will make barrels for me. It's bolt and carrier that I need to get finalized. It's a go , just need a couple loose ends finalized. I'll let you know.
call me. days 765-860-2549 I'm busy doing win 70's in 358wssm, done 12 so far.
Ben

Sonex184 here are the photos of the 358 GRANT and 358 WSSM,forming steps, and one of the rifles. I down sized them to see if they would post.

I have to do a post for each photo

this is one of the rifles

Interesting little fellow.

It's no real problem for me, but you can add more than one picture per post. It took us a while to get the instructions together, but check out my 1st and 2nd posts on page 2 of this thread. The final complete instructions are in the last PDF.

http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=34239

Bye
Jack

I am getting ready to start my .358/.338 Win mag and will use a premium Douglas barrel for this wildcat, using a piece of fancy burl walnut
( featherweight style) wood stock. The action is a model 70 Winchester "Classic". ;):cool:

I have 3 rifles in the .358 Grant. Browning WSSM, Winchester 70 and a Rem Model 7. With the Winchester I am just now beginning to fire form cases. While doing this I have used 5 different powders. IMR. 3031, 4198, 4895, Varget and Rel. 10X. I am using 200 gr Hornady seated in lands to fire form. So far, 47 gr,of Rel 10X has given me 2734 fps. Primer just started to crater. Group was over 2 inches. My twist is 1-14. Best group was .56" with 44 gr. 3031 at 2510 fps. I have some 225 gr. Accubonds coming and am going to try them in fire formed cases using the Rel 10X.
The little Browning Wssm is for my wife. I am trying to keep the recoil to a minimum. With fire formed brass, the 180 gr Hornady and 43 gr of 4198 I got a .709 group @ 2731 fps. While fire forming brass with the 200 gr. Hornady, using 40 gr. of 4198 I got a .630 group @2519 fps.
For comparison, I shot some Barnes 200 gr. triple shocks and 40 gr of 4198 and got 2569 fps. Group was 1.280" but the triple shocks did gain approx. 50 fps over the Hornady 200 grs.

Dave are you one of the guys that talked to my brother Dane Grant. He said that he talked to someone that was building one for his wife. Try BLC-2 for less recoil. It's does not have the fastest vel. but it has less recoil than 4895 and groups the best with the 225 gr. ACCU- BOND. If you need any help let me know.

D grant and Sonix184 I live in IN. and Im interested in building a rifle in one of these cal.Is it possible to buy a ready barrel for the model 70? Im new to all of this is there an advantage to one cartridge over the other?I dont know if i posted this right or not first time on a forum as well.

Dave are you one of the guys that talked to my brother Dane Grant. He said that he talked to someone that was building one for his wife. Try BLC-2 for less recoil. It's does not have the fastest vel. but it has less recoil than 4895 and groups the best with the 225 gr. ACCU- BOND. If you need any help let me know.

Sorry for the late response. Yes, Dane and I had a similiar idea a year or so ago with the .358 Grant. Thru Mark Penrod I was able to contact Dane. We were both having problems expanding the WSSM cases.
I just did some more shooting with fire formed cases out of my Winchester 70. Got a 3/4" group with 50gr Varget and the 225gr. Acubond at 2590 fps. Load is compressed but I showed no pressure. Tried 50.5 grains and velocity was 2620 but group started opening up.
Also shot 5 rounds of 50 gr varget and the Sierra 225gr. Group was just .5" but velocity was down to 2540. No pressure signs. I am going to play with this load some more and then shoot both the Acubonds and the Sierra's at 250 yds and compare.
Dave

Have you guys had these pressure tested yet? IIRC you can get them done fo about $30...

I work pressure just like any other rifle I reload for. I started with light .358 WIN loads. Here is a picture of three groups shot in a row. Clean barrel shoot 1 to dirty barrel then 3 shot group same for all three groups. Only differnce was seating depth.

Actually I'm more interested in total PSI/CUP not because of brass failure, but because of action strength. Sometimes there is no pressure sign on a case until the breech lets go. The WSM is already a 65K cartridge. It would be bad mojo to eat bolt...

Old Ironsights it looks like on the other sights you are one of the guys that do not like what we are doing:eek:. Guns and reloading are what my family does as a hobby. This was a chance for us to have some fun. And we did ! Why are so many other guys crying over this? There are going to be very few people to do the work to use one of these gun. We as gun owners and hunters need to stick together as one group and worry about the anti's not fight with each other. To many people on those other sights want to complain about what the other guy is doing. If someone does not like it don't use it. I have custom XP-100's that are alot more powerful than this gun.:confused::) As for getting info from me to use aginst me I think not.:p

I am most certainly not "against" what you are doing. If you are the gentleman who recieved a telephone call last evening from a poster on IS griping about what I am/was saying there, consider that NONE of the very good information posted HERE is being posted THERE. If anyone THERE had said "I have a .358 Grant" then I would have said "ah, yes, I've seen his data." Unfortunately, over THERE all I hear is "I've got this wundergun and this guy is making it and I don't know crap about it other than it shoots good" - which is not an acceptable description of a wildcat in my book.

From what I've read HERE, the .358 Grant sounds immenantly plausable (by ballistic calc standards) and interesting, though I do have serious concerns about the PSI spike that must be occurring to get your stated velocities out of such a low volume case.

I totally agree with you that there are XP100s and other hand cannons that far and away exceed the inherent limitations of the 358 Grant, and quite frankly I am generally not at all concerned if a dedicated reloader/shooter wants to use either class of firearm.

I campaigned hard for PCRs in Indiana - arguing loudly against many of the guys who, after decrying PCRs as the end of hunting, are now claiming to have purchased "400yd deer guns".

I am not at all worried about things like the .458 SOCOM or the .358 Grant. OTOH, there ARE people on those other forums who, after having their butt handed to them over the PCR issue and their lack of comprehension of basic Ballistics, are bound and determined to make sure that they can say to DNR "See, I Told You So" over the kind of external ballistics your wildcat specs out to.

I would be very careful about the people showing avid interest in your cartridge. IMO Not all have the best intentions at heart.

Now, personally even as (or maybe because) I grew up in the wide open spaces of Wyoming, I just can't get my mind around using your cartridge on deer here given the average ranges and hunter densities. I just don't see any viable 400yd shots available. But then I AM in N-IN. Maybe there's longer shots down south. I dunno.

INDNR has repeatedly stated that they want IN to be a "short to intermediate range" deer State (despite the Hand Rifle rules) and a cartridge that is being sold on the idea that it is a 400yd deer cartridge could potentially jeproadize all the work done to date in getting PCRs accepted. I hope I'm wrong, but it IS a valid concern considerng how hard some Factions fought it in the first place.

Anyway I do wish you well on your cartridge (if not necessairly for use in deer season with such a high BC bullet ;) ). You have been far more forthright in your data HERE than some (THERE) and never offered "vaporware" (like the 35-450HLD).

Old Ironsight sorry if I took your post on the other sites wrong. But I am very touchy about all the cry babies on this subject. As for the pressure my case holds 1.5 more grains of water than a 358 WIN. So start with a mid load for a 358 Win and work up. It is the same as working with an Ackley cartridge. Look in Nosler's data for 358 Win with 225 AccuBond.

Old Ironsight sorry if I took your post on the other sites wrong. But I am very touchy about all the cry babies on this subject. As for the pressure my case holds 1.5 more grains of water than a 358 WIN. So start with a mid load for a 358 Win and work up. It is the same as working with an Ackley cartridge. Look in Nosler's data for 358 Win with 225 AccuBond.

Yep. Calc'd that. but the .358 is building the pressure over a longer case body and flatter shoulder. I may be all wet, but I would think the pressure spike would be sharper and spread over a smaller area.

As you know, on a longer case burn propagation is more longitudinal in the direction of the bore. On the WSM/WSSM the burn is more radial with pressure recursion caused by the sharp shoulder - all of which leads to higher pressure than the "book" would say for that amount of powder.

Anyway, I'm guessing your barrel mfg doesn't have any issues with the thickness of your chamber walls, so it really comes down to bolt thrust...

Like I said, it would be really bad mojo for somebody to eat bolt. ;)

Over 370 rounds in one rifle with no proublem with lugs, bolt sticking, primer pockets, splitting cases, or buldged chamber. If you went to a smaller dia. bore you would have proublems with pressure. Pressure programs don't always work. Just like building plans just because it's on paper does not mean it's right! Sometime in the field (real world) it's different.

I hope you're right and it stays safe in the long term, becaus outside of that concern I think it's a cool 'cat.

If it were me, I'd send out to have it pressure tested just for peace of mind/legal CYA, it's not that expensive - but then, I'm paranoid... especially if other people are using my mods.

Ballistic Research charges $5.00 per shot - min 5 shots for pressure testing. That's cheap insurance & Peace of mind.

Ballistic Research
Tom Armbrust
1108 W. May Street
McHenry, Illinois 60060-8918
815-385-0037

I will not give out load info or loaded ammo or brass!! To cover my butt!! I've got several Ackley round rifles and never messed with having any one test the pressure. Just alot of hands on time at the bench. If you don't like high BC spitzers what about them in slug guns and muzzies. And how many people wer hurt last deer season because of these rifles?

Hey, relax.

I ask about the pressure because I'm concerned about the presure, not because I'm calling into question your ability, motives or anything else.

I'm just giving you some contact information and saying what I would do - and have done - while doing load development when I thought pressure tollerances were tight - which has nothing to do with high BC spitzers BTW.

Now, I've stated I'm not fond of high BC spitzers with terminal ranges in excess of 300yds for Indiana's hunting conditions - out of any gun, but I also agree that nobody has been hurt by long range misses with high BC spitzers, as far as I know.

Again, IMO, so long as Long Range cartridges (Handcannon, Rifle, whatever) are primarily the pervue of dedicated reloaders/shooters - i.e. people who take the time to understand both the benefits and limitations of their equipment as well as practice more than once a year - then I really don't care if they are used... because I can assume those people will use it safely, just as they have with, oh, a TC in 7mm.

And until a .358 WSSM type cartridge (yours or someone elses) becomes mainstream I won't care if dedicated people use them for deer.

But if (and when - if this class of cartridge works out in the long term like I think it will) it becomes a mainstream, OEM cartridge/Gun, then I will be much more concerned about the once-a-year-zero hunter using them. But that's a good ways off.

Don't worry though, I'm a Libertarian. I don't advocate or agitate for additional restrictions on anything - no matter what my personal opinion may be. ;)

Old Ironsights I have found 2 other sites where this is being talked about .Indianasportsman.com & Hoosierhunting.com Are ther any others that you know of ? Relaxed just touchy subjuct with me. I have put alot of time into this round.

Not directly, that I know of. There are some PMs floating around on Hunting Indiana but nothing like the same-old anti-PCR sour grapes on IS & HH.

If you looked at the whole threads, you should have noticed I have participated on both of those forums/threads... ( or at least on the 35-450HLD thread on HH - which IMO doesn't pencil out nearly as good as the .358 Grant) and I have tried to be consistent in voicing my opinion - as well as pointing out that in no way do I want DNR to take decisions based on my, or anyone else's, "opinion".

I can understand your sensitivity, and I don't blame you. I just hope that you see where the Political types on both of those forums are shifting the debate back to "no rifles in indiana" - and that I do not support that position.

FWIW, the round I was/am working on has a very low pressure window... SAAMI of 13K max for the actions/barrels, so you can see why I get sensitive/paranoid about 3rd party scientific load testing... ;)

Old Ironsights I've try to put this post on one of the other sites but for some reason it won't post. Maybe you can answer my Questions?
PCR's good or bad?
1. Was anyone killed by a PCR last year?
2. Was anyone injured by a PCR last year?
3. Did PCR's wipe out Indiana's deer herd?
4. Did PCR's greatly reduce Indiana's deer herd?
5. Did PCR's get more people involver in hunting?
Answers
1. NO:)
2. NO:)
3. NO:)
4. NO:)
First 4 all NO's even with wildcats and high BC bullets!!:p
5. YES:):):)
I have an 8 year old that shot 1 20 ga. slug and did not want any more. He has a Ruger 77/44 and will shoot as long as he has ammo. Practice makes perfect. If not for PCR's he would not have hunted last year. In my 20 years of deer hunting it was the best year of my life!!:):) If we don't get kids involved in hunting there will be no future in hunting. PASS IT ON!!!
SO WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT PCR'S? PLEASE TELL ME!
That was my post I tried 5 times and it would take 4-5 min and fail. If you will try to post it on the other sites for me. thank you. I am also sending it to DNR

Good post. I agree. I'll see what I can do. Were you trying HH or IS? The thread on IS was locked.

I tried Indianasportsman.com. After the first 2 times it says message to short . The first 2 times it took a couple of min. then said that. Are they aginst PCR's and blocking me to hide the facts?

Looks like I have no trouble posting on this site!

I'm curious to know the twist of all these barrels. I saw one 1/14 mentioned. What are the rest? Is anyone using longer bullets? I have a Lone Eagle in 358 Win and 1/12 twist. I find 200 gr flat point Remington bulk bullets to impart that Bang Flop to game quite regularly. I do have the 180 gr old style X bullets but may reserve them for the Savage rifle. Bandito

Mine are 1 in 12" Works great with 225 gr. Accu Bonds. That's what we set the rifles up for.
Old Ironsights tried 5 more times to post that thread with no results. So I tried a different subject went right on! Something is funny with those people. Ary they tring to hide the truth?

Old Ironsights is a TROLL, BEWARE!

I tried Indianasportsman.com. After the first 2 times it says message to short . The first 2 times it took a couple of min. then said that. Are they aginst PCR's and blocking me to hide the facts?

Strange. Never had that happen to me.

Not everyone there is anti PCR. There are a number of very vocal antis, a few "pro's" (like myself) who hunted with them last rear, and a ballance of "moderates" or "I don't care's".

The Mods are pretty even handed, so they shouldn't be blocking you. However, that thread is locked and I think that if another were to be started so soon after the last pizzen match it would get locked pretty quick too.

Old Ironsights is a TROLL, BEWARE!

Nice to meet you too.

Old Ironsights is a TROLL, BEWARE!
Way is he a troll? What did he do?

Way is he a troll? What did he do?

Annoy someone, apparantly. :rolleyes:

Oh, hey, it posted. http://www.indianasportsman.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137500&postcount=4 dunno why you couldn't see it.

Edit: Oh, I see you noticed and posted more... :o

Guys, This Post was interesting reading but didn't really know what was going on until I when to Indiana's Department of Natural Resources - Hunting and fishing site.

Here's the Regs on fireams I found. Maybe others had same problem as I did following this thread. Stuff below helped me! - Maybe help others?

2007-2008 INDIANA HUNTING AND TRAPPING GUIDE Page16<O:p</O:p
Deer Hunting Equipment Legal Firearms -Shotguns, handguns, rifles with pistol cartridges, muzzleloading long guns and muzzleloading handguns are legal during the firearms season. Only muzzleloading firearms are legal during the muzzleloader season. Hunters may carry more than one type of legal firearm when hunting during the firearms season only. Shotguns must be 10-, 12-, 16- or 20-gauge or .410 bore loaded with slugs or saboted bullets. Rifled slug barrels are permitted. Combination rifle-shotguns are not allowed. Muzzleloading firearms must be .44 caliber or larger loaded with a single bullet of at least .357 caliber. Saboted bullets are allowed, provided the bullet is .357 caliber or larger. A muzzleloading firearm must be loaded from the muzzle. Multiple-barrel muzzleloading long guns are allowed. Rifles with pistol cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms season. Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the 357 Magnum, 38-40 Winchester, 41 Magnum, 41 Special, 44 Magnum, 44 Special, 44-40 Winchester, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh, 480 Ruger, 50 Action Express, and 500 S&W.

Yep. That's what it says. Pretty clear unless you've been confused by the rehtoric.

Here's how I solved the "problem" for those who wouldn't listen/couldn't understand the numbers.

I believe this picture will print to scale. I have the CAD & a PDF if you want it.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/PCRTemplate.jpg

Print it out then past it to some cardstock and cut out the openings.

I sent this to DNR during the "final debates". There was some discussion of printing it in the manual but I guess they decided a floppy paper version wouldn't be a good idea.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but....."I s needs to know"

Why would anyone in their right mind propose that the whole state must shoot deer with rifles that only shoot pistol cartridges? How long has it been in place?

If, someone would help me - I won't bother anymore ????

I don't want to hijack this thread, but....."I s needs to know"

Why would anyone in their right mind propose that the whole state must shoot deer with rifles that only shoot pistol cartridges? How long has it been in place?

If, someone would help me - I won't bother anymore ????

It has only been in place since last June (2007) when the Rule was published in the Fall Regulations.

Here's the scoop, as I posted over on the BigBoreLeverguns Sub when asked the same thing:

Up until last year the only "long guns" you could use in Indiana for DEER were Muzzies or Slug Guns. (But you can use a .50 bmg to hunt squirrels if you want... go figure)

Last year we got Pistol Caliber Rifles (as defined above) included in the "Accepted" list for deer, but not calibers like .30-30, .38-55, .444, .450, .45-70 or any of the other traditional tube-fed deer/brush rifle cartridges.

We were lucky to get that. There was a small but very LOUD contingent of Fudds who fought tooth and nail - to include wild distortions and outright lies designed to frighten non-hunters - to prevent us getting any changes to the equipment regs.

"Historically" Indiana was "Slug only" from the time Deer Hunting re-allowed in the 1950s (after the deer were exterminated in the late 1800s) and the Fudds don't like people messing with their "tradition"... or anything that makes it "easier" for somone else to maybe shoot "their" Booner.

There WAS one State Sen who tried to get a prior ruling through the Capitol (as opposed to the DNR) to say "Traditional Tube Fed Cartridges" but the Fudds had a cow thinking that a bunch of "Quigley wannabees" would be shooting their precious booner at 900yds with their 45-110s or some dung. As it is, they still whine about all of us "cowboys" with our "cowboy guns" invading "their" holy woods. :rolleyes:

Anyway, there were huge and rancorous debates with a few of us Ballistics Geeks publishing table after Table of comparative data showing that, realisticly, 96% of all known or potential dimensionally compliant cartridges had Ballistic Profiles substantially similar to, but no better than, a Premium Sabot Slug like the 3" Hornady SST. Those wildcats that CAN exceed those specs are still not significantly better (ballistically) than a hot-loaded Savage ML-II Smokeless Muzzleloader using the same bullets. (Really, Grant. I've seen some ML-II data that run right where the .358 Grant is... yours is just easier to get off a second & third shot with... ;) )

In the end, Math & common sense prevailed over Wild Accusations and Mud Slinging. :D

There is another forum discussing the .358 WSSM. AR15.com (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=378857) has a thread going from a guy who is building AR-15 type rifles on the Olympic upper and getting some very interesting data, about 200 fps faster than the .358 Win. This round can only be done on the Olympic WSSM upper since it uses oversized bolts and barrel extensions. This could also be done on the AR-10, especially if heavy bullets are on the main menu, but the mags would likely need blocking to work with the shorter round and light to mid-range bullets. In the AR-15 you need to stick to light to mid-range bullets because the heavies will have to be seated too deeply in the case to work through the AR-15 magazine.

I've been exiled to VA for the last three years but will be back home in just over a year. At that time, if the fuddy-duddies don't muck things up, I will be using the .458 SOCOM and .500 Phantom for a little rifle deer hunting along with my .309 JDJ Contender which will drop a deer where it stands at 300 yards and not break a sweat doing it.
What I find so funny about the Indiana rifle law is that for over 20 years I hunted Indiana with an array of "pistols." The two I have been using for the last 15 years are the .45-70 and the .50 Alaskan, both of which are ILLEGAL when used in a rifle, but OK in a pistol. While their normal use range is 200 yards or less, pistols now can be used in a host of "long" rifle calibers such as .243, 30-06, 309 JDJ, 375 H&H...and dozens if not hundreds of other hand-cannon rounds, all of which can take deer at ranges just as long as you can with a rifle in the same caliber in the hands of a person who knows how to shoot them, but yet, nobody has been dinged with one of them either.
"Legal Handguns for Deer Hunting
Handguns, other than muzzleloading,
must have a barrel at least four inches long
and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diam-
eter or larger. The handgun cartridge case,
without the bullet, must be at least 1.16
inches long."

No mention of max case length in pistols. Go figure!

Old Ironsights it did not that them long to lock my post on the other site. So I looked back in their threads and anything about PCR or rifles gets locked it looks like. No one on their could giv me any bad facts so they jusy started fighting with each other to get the post locked. FUDDY-DUDDIES is right.

Big Bore are you from Indiana? If so what part?

What's even more interesting than the Hand Rifles is that, by the DNR's definition, if you wanted to jump through the hoops to get a BATFE Tax Stamp for a SBR you could also shoot any caliber you want because the DNR's definition says only "Barrel of less than 16" and OAL of less than 24"... totally NFA SBR territory.

Ah well. Such is life. ;)

...No one on their could giv me any bad facts so they jusy started fighting with each other to get the post locked. Yep. Same as always. Been that way since the debates started Fall of '06.

Big Bore are you from Indiana? If so what part?
DG; We have a mutual friend at Kiesler's: J.D. Coming home for his wedding this August. I never thought he would tie the knot. He must really be in love!
I was from Jeffersonville and we start building our retirement home in Palmyra this December. We move back to God's country, the land of soy beans and corn, July 17th, 2009. I cannot wait!
It's been a long three years and now only 422 days to go. All the good stuff happened while I was away. Rifle season, NRA convention, fall turkey, darn the luck!

OI. I don't see how an SBR would be legal in any caliber since it most definitely cannot be a pistol by virtue of it being a short barreled "rifle." While an SBR does not have to have a stock, a pistol cannot have one lest it become an illegal SBR, and SBRing it would make it a rifle, an NFA rifle but a rifle none-the-less, and as a rifle it would fall under the rifle cartridge limitations. As a pistol and non-NFA weapon, any caliber is a go above .243 and a case longer than 1.16 inch. Before Indiana OKed rifles I was just about ready to have Marty do a 10 inch pistol upper on the AR-15 platform in .458 SOCOM, but no need to now since I can use a rifle. I soon will have a .458 SOCOM in pistol form but it is on the Savage 516 bolt action pistol. It is as powerful as the Contender .45-70 with 350 gr. bullets and lighter but nowhere near as powerful as the .50 Alaskan, but it will be a thumper none the less and will have one up the tube and one in the magazine instead of being a single shot as the other two are. Of course the AR .458S pistol would give me 7+1 or 11+1, not that one would ever need that kind of backup firepower for deer hunting. In 40 years of deer hunting I cannot recall ever needing more than three shots to put a deer down or finish it off.

...OI. I don't see how an SBR would be legal in any caliber since it most definitely cannot be a pistol by virtue of it being a short barreled "rifle." While an SBR does not have to have a stock, a pistol cannot have one lest it become an illegal SBR, and SBRing it would make it a rifle, an NFA rifle but a rifle none-the-less, and as a rifle it would fall under the rifle cartridge limitations. ...

I dunno... the IC sort of ambiguates it:

IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

Now let's examine the DNR's requirements for hunting deer with a handgun:

Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least four inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter
or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long.

I think that the DNR would actually have to publish a clarification on this if someone wanted to push it.

Ditto for the repeatedly argued (all the way to SCOTUS) over whether putting a shoulder stock on a Contender makes it an SBR, an accessorized Pistol or a Rifle. :eek:

Details, details... Keeps the Lawyers happy. :D

State law wording notwithstanding, putting a stock on a Contender or Encore with a barrel less than 16 inches and/or an OAL less than 26 inches is most definitely in violation of Federal law and constitutes an illegal SBR.
The TC ruling allows the Contender to be purchased as a pistol, then converted to rifle and back and forth so long as the shoulder stock is NEVER on the frame when the shorter than 16 inch barrel is on there. If the Contender is purchased as a rifle, then it cannot be converted to a pistol. The only way to do that is to SBR it. That is the stupidest law the Feds ever came up with but it is the law none the less. When I started building AR-15 pistols I got into this whole mess quite deeply. First build on a frame is EVERYTHING. Buy a stripped AR lower, build a rifle, then if you want a pistol you have to SBR it. Build the first build as pistol and you can go back and forth from pistol to rifle to pistol...so long as you never have the stock on there with a pistol barrel. The ONLY difference is first build, and that sets what the frame is from that time forward.
I have a letter from the ATFE NFA Technologies division outlining what you need to do to build an AR pistol and it applies to Indiana also, since this is where I started building my AR-pistols. Regardless of how the state law is written, or the DNR laws, if it has a shoulder stock on it with a barrel less than 16 inches and/or an OAL of less than 26 inches, it is no longer a pistol but an illegal SBR regardless of how it started life.

And the old "one handed thing" always gets my panties in a bunch. The ATFE has ruled a vertical (or any second grip not parallel with the bore) on a pistol makes it an AOW because it is no longer designed to be shot one handed. A tube forend on an AR or wood forend on a Contender is OK because they are parallel to the bore, but have it hang down a little and now it suddenly is an AOW! Yet a 4 pound Encore .50 AK or .500 S&W is OK so long as it has only one grip even though nobody shoots it one handed and would be daft to do so. And the definition of an AOW states that to be an AOW it cannot have a rifled barrel, but they still ruled an HK SP-89, AR-15 pistols, or any pistol with the second forward grip makes it an AOW, requiring the same $200 making tax to be paid in order to stay legal.
Where do they come up with this stuff?
You are most correct. They do this just to keep their lawyer friends busy, and everyone else guessing what the you-know-what are they going to rule on next?
Getting a BOT though but this NFA stuff always gets me going. I love NFA stuff but the laws are so screwy you really have to stay on top of them or risk their wrath, and that "ain't" good.

Now, back to the .358 WSSM. What kind of mods are needed to the magazine? I notice the WSSM mag holds 7 in what looks to be a relatively normal 20 round AR mag, which is the same as the .458 SOCOM. Do the feed lips need tweaking? Follower need tweaking? How do they work in something like a 6.8/6.5 mag?

BB: :D

Email S. Halbrook sometime about the SCOTUS (US vs.TC) decision. He'll give you a screen full. :eek::D

And people wonder why I'm an anarcho/minarcho Libertrian capitalist... :rolleyes:

Now, back to the .358 WSSM. What kind of mods are needed to the magazine? I notice the WSSM mag holds 7 in what looks to be a relatively normal 20 round AR mag, which is the same as the .458 SOCOM. Do the feed lips need tweaking? Follower need tweaking? How do they work in something like a 6.8/6.5 mag?


The mag-catch slot has to be milled higher. This will allow the magazine to ride lower in the mag-well and let the larger bolt pass by the magazine lips. The lips are also opened up to 1/2" and the follower modified. I have been modifying Magpul anti-tilt followers with very good results.

Dtech;
Have you done any of these on the DPMS LR-308 upper? I have a spare one of these about and the thought hit me that if done on the LR-308 upper I could seat the bullets out quite a bit further, gain more powder space, be able to use heavier and longer bullets, and still be legal in Indiana. I did my .500 Phantom on this upper and it works just fine with the shorter hunting bullets but allows me to seat those big old long .50 BMG 650 gr. bullets for kicks and giggles also. This is one that is also legal for deer hunting in Indiana and will make its debut in the fall of '09.

No, I have not done anything with the DPMS LR receivers and the WSSM line. I'm not sure that it would be possible, The bolt is larger than that of an AR-10 or the LR from DPMS. Also, the barrel extension is going to fall between the size of an AR-15 and that of the LR or AR-10. For the most part, folks are getting the WSSM's built on the AR-15 from me because they are light and inexpensive. Where the LR would give you more powder capacity, it would defeat several other reasons for using the AR-15,

Do the .300 Rem SAUM and the WSSM cases use the same head size, or close? All my cartridge spec books are still packed away and will remain so until we get back to the Hoosier state next year. The LR-308 comes in the .300 Remington SAUM and this is the bolt that is used on my .470 Rhino and .500 Phantom. It is the standard magnum head size IIRC and if the WSSM also uses the standard magnum head size, or very close, then the .358 WSSM might be an option to consider in the LR-308/AR-10 platform. A bit heavier yes, maybe 1.5 to 2 pounds, but my .500 Phantom is not objectionably heavier than my .458 SOCOM done on the AR-15 platform and the feed lips on the LR-308 magazine do not have to be altered any at all whereas on the AR-15 platform the feed lips almost have to be completely removed with only a trace remaining in order for them to work with the .500 Phantom. The .500 Phantom is based on the .500 Jeffrey case with a rebated rim to work on the .300 Rem SAUM bolt head.
I do not know if Marty (Teppo Jutsu) used a modified DPMS SAUM barrel extension or manufactured his own, but I suspect he modified the DPMS extension.
With the longer seating length allowed by using the LR-308/AR-10 platform one would have a larger selection of bullets that could be utilized and at higher velocities.
This is the selection of bullets that are useable in the LR-308 platform for the .500 Phantom whereas only the short bullet will work in the AR-15 platform or require very deep seating. The A-Max can only be used if loaded singularly.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/500Plineup.jpg
Photo courtesy of Marty ter Weeme of Teppo Jutsu

Has anyone seen any info on any other cartridges? I know of talk of two but can't find any info on them.(358 BFG and 358 Dexter) The only one that I can find facts on (besides my 358 GRANT) is a couple of guys that have did WSSMs. I have talked to 3 of them.
Old Ironsights for them to test my round they would have to have a test barrel chambered for it. That would cost more than $25. And there is only one gunsmith that I let use my reamer. So they would have to buy a reamer too.
I've put another 120 rounds through it now. And with the 225 Accu-Bond 2550 to 2600 fps looks like where I am stopping. Can go faster but starts to show pressure and groups open up.
If anyone knows any other sites with info please let me know?

I have sent all six of you guys PM's with the info you were wanting and Big Bore I sent you an e-mail too. Sorry for thaking so long I have not looked at this in over a week.
It has been kind of slow on here . Does any one have any new info on any of these PCR rounds.
thanks

I am supposed to receive my brass and bullets today and since I am going with a more simple and non-proprietary design, anyone can order the reamer from Dave Manson of Manson reamers. The design I went with is just a reinvention of the wheel and while the other wheels have been given proprietary status, meaning that the reamer maker cannot make another reamer without the designer's permission, the design we are using will be open to anyone wanting it with no permission needed. It also uses standard .25 WSSM headspace gauges since the headspace datum line is the same as the .25 WSSM.
Dave and I are calling it the .358 HDH, Hoosier Deer Hunter, but since it is not proprietary you can get the reamer and call it anything you want. It is just the .25 WSSM opened up to .358 caliber with no other changes except for trimming*** to length of 1.625 inch. The shoulder is kept at 30 degrees to aid in feeding with the semi-auto rifle I am using it in and the throat is long enough to allow use in the LR-308 rifle with a COAL of 2.800 inches***, which will work in non-modified LR-308 magazines, the same as my .500 Phantom and .470 Rhino The bullets it is designed around are the 225 gr. Barnes TSX and the Woodleigh 225 gr. RN and FMJ with the bullets seated to make the 2.8 COAL*** and should place the bullet base very close to the bottom of the case neck with minimal protrusion into the powder space. Marty of Teppo Jutsu will be doing the barrel work. The longer seating depth will allow for more powder capacity that should more than offset the more shallow shoulder angle. Once I get the cases formed and get a water capacity, I will shoot Marty off an e-mail and he can do some Quick-Load calculations. While QL does not always work perfectly it will give a starting point. And unlike loads for the AR-15 rifle where pressures have to be kept low to keep the back thrust on the bolt the same as the 5.56 cartridge (which works out to 35K PSI for the .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf) for use in the LR-308 and the .300 RSAUM bolt you can push the pressures up to where they belong, about 60-64K PSI.
Once I get the QL data from Marty I will post it here.

From what I understand, depending on parent case, case capacity, and operating system (bolt versus semi-auto) performance should be very close to the same for cartridges in the same class.

My brass finally got here and I did a water check. It turns out using the standard .25 WSSM case and just necking up to .358 the water capacity is 1.7 gr. less than the 358 Winchester. No need to run this past Marty. I expect that I will be able to come very close to the .358 Win and that is fine by me and using the .358 Win start load data should be OK but I will likely max out sooner. Of course, I can take pressures up to 60-64K PSI with the LR-308 with the .300 RSAUM bolt and the loads listed for the .358 Win top out at about 50-52K CUP. We'll see. Using a 180 to 225 gr. bullet allows for fairly flat shooting out to 300 yards and in the areas I hunt, that will most certainly be "good nuff."

***It also turns out that simply necking up the case shortens it to below the 1.625 limit, coming in at about 1.617 when the mouth is squared up so no trimming is required. How simple is that? And with a 225 gr. TSX seated to the bottom of the case neck, COAL is only 2.630 inch, well short of the 2.800 inch magazine maximum. This is really turning out to be an easy project. The only hard part will be waiting for reamers, dies, and barrel work.

What powder have you settled on? It's probably in this thread somewhere, but what action are you using.

Thanks

lukehalee
I used Remington 700 actions.
N-530 has did best for me. Have talked to some guys that are getting the same results for Varget. I've got some on the shelf that I might try. It's cheaper and easier to find.
Have you did anything with yours? Let me know.

To anyone that has called JGS to get a reamer, they have been called and told to sell it with out writen permission. They said that they do that to new wildcat unless they are told not to. I have received PM's from 4 guys about this so try again and it should be ok. If not PM , or call me. Sorry for any trouble!
thanks

I just put my 358 barrel back on a few weeks ago. Getting ready to work on it a little more before deer season.

I also settled on N530 last year. For me seemed to get the most velocity before the bolt got a little tight. I really struggled with bolt thrust issues last year. Got my action (Savage) trued and timed this summer, but given the floating head, doubt if that will be a home run. Some day I will run thru all the posts on this thread to see if anything new popped up relative to tight cases. But with a true action and lapped barrel (was VERY rough) might help. I still would like to find a ball powder that is a little slower to try. Varget worked well, but I ran out of case too soon. If I remember right, you blew your shoulder out or something, might work for you. Might want to check out RL15 to. I've switched from Varget to RL15 in a 6BR that worked real well. Might try it.

tried Varget was not as happy with it as N-530. Velocity was a little slower, case was full , and did not group as well. Going to stay with my N-530 load at 2550 fps.
Velocity is ok but groups were the best.
Has anyone else been doing anything with any of these round?

N135 shows promise. Put me over 3500 with 3 shot 1 inch groups. Have not spent much time on it lately. Built a new BR gun that I'm trying to get ready for some matches.

3500 FPS out of a .358 WSSM????? I hope that is a type-o and you meant 2500 fps.

I would like to brag about some new triple layered, stacked load I have developed, but that would not be true.

Minor 1,000 fps typo.

First I wanted to give a huge "Thank You" to Big Bore for putting up with all of my emails and giving me a huge amount of knowledge to help me get my .358 WSSM off the ground. It's fantastic to have someone help those of us less "technical" when it comes to such a project. Again, thank you!

Just wanted to chime in a bit on all the B.S. that continues to be spewed regarding the "PCR" issue. Yep, you guessed it, I dared to go over to the "Other" website(s) to see what all the hype was about. I actually thought I was going to have to drive down to Walmart to buy a trailerload of Kleenex for all the crying and babbling whiners over there! Yes, I am from Indiana, and have hunted here for over 35 years, and the rifle/ "PCR" issue that has been created by others around the state is just ridiculous. The whole negative issue that has been created regarding use of rifles, pistol cartridges in rifles, special wildcat cartridges, etc. for deer hunting, in my opinion is nothing more than a batch of short sighted, numb skull, whiners.

I do not think I have ever witnessed a state to where the "hunters" are so nieve and misguided and where the DNR is so backwards and politically controlled. What is the issue here? Using rifles? Politics? Ignorance? Certainly I say it is the latter two! Certainly I would agree that there is some common sense needed as to what cartridges should be used in more populated areas or parts of the state. However, when you have folks using pistols capable of shooting .308, 30.06, .270 etc. yet you wont allow rifles using those calibers that makes no sense at all if you are talking range and safety concerns. Sure a shorter 15" inch Encore barrel won't have quite the same ballistics as a 24" rifle barrel, but geez, these pistols still have well over 250 + yard ranges depending on the caliber. No doubt that those pistol cartridges that are now allowed for rifles here are certainly capable of taking a deer at short ranges, however there are some fantastic "rifle" cartridges that fit that category as well!! This also means the selection of rifles opens up a little more. C,mon IDNR use some freaking common sense here.

Whatever the real issue is amongst these so called "Indiana hunters", and I use that term loosely, they need to quit their whining and crying regarding the use of rifles until they read up a little on cartridge ballistics, and drop the notion that the only true short range weapon is a bow or slug gun. Who knows, maybe it is just an issue of not being confident in their own abilities, or maybe these same guys don't possess enough common sense to handle a rifle safely? If that is the case, maybe IDNR should limit these people to using spears (spear heads no longer than 1.625 inches and with a diameter of .357 or larger) and stones (same specs) then they could truly be using the short range weapons they want and deserve.:D

Mauser

I finally got my CH-4D tapered expanders. While when I was forming the 25 WSSM to 358 WSSM over 6 steps the cases shortened to below the 1.625 maximum, when doing it in two steps, from 25 to 30 and then from 30 to 35, the cases did not shorten near as much. They all ended up being 1.627 to 1.630 inch so they will need trimming. Instead of using the normal .010 range from min to max I am going to use only .005 so my minimum case length will be 1.620 with a max of 1.625.
Now, when the reamer specs get here I can get the other Dave started on the dies.

Big Bore my chamber is cut to 1.625 and all my brass is trimmed to 1.620. That away my max length can never be over, if it is the bolt will not close. Just something I did so that there is no question that it is on the legal side.

That is what Dave is doing to my reamer also, max case length 1.625. I am using a longer than normal 358 WSSM lead so I can seat out farther than one can in the AR-15 class of rifles since I am doing mine on the LR-308. As it turned out I cannot use all the length of the magazine even with the 225 gr. let alone the 200 gr. TSX and with 180 gr. they are darned short, maybe too short to feed properly but that will not be determined for at least a year. My .500 Phantom with hunting bullets are swallowed by the LR-308 mag and it feeds OK so maybe the short .358 HDH loads will too.
My barrel builder just got wiped out by Ike so while we had planned on getting started just as soon as the reamer and dies are done it now looks like the start date is pushed back, oh say, maybe until he gets his home and shop rebuilt! Freaking hurricane. :( At least his family is safe and that is the most important thing. Screw the barrel building.

Well guys,

I finally got my project started! My Winchester .25 WSSM should be here this week. Finally! Sonex is going to do the barrel work and chambering for me, and from what I hear from him, he is building killer rifles. (no pun intended) Hopefully, I can get up to his place next week, pop the barrel off and make sure the thread pitch is correct to get the new barrel ordered. We are going with a Douglas XX Grade premium barrel, have them do the pre-threading and contour it. Douglas is saying three weeks on the barrel, so we may get a break and get this thing off the ground quickly. I'll keep you posted.:))) Can't wait to shoot the thing!

Mauser

Ballistic Research charges $5.00 per shot - min 5 shots for pressure testing. That's cheap insurance & Peace of mind.

Ballistic Research
Tom Armbrust
1108 W. May Street
McHenry, Illinois 60060-8918
815-385-0037



Here's the response I got from Tom:

Barb Miller wrote:
>
> I do not test Wildcat rifle cartridges as I do not have test barrels for them since they are so expensive.
>
> I do test shotgun shells from 4 GA to 410 bore. I charge $5.00 per shot. Please list the powder charge in grains and each and every component. They must be sent Fed Exp or UPS since it is illegal to send them through the US mail.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tom

I can make anyone a set of 358 wssm dies if you want a set. Also if you take 243 wssm cases it only takes a 270 wsm expander and 358 expander to size up to final size. cases come out to 1.617. You have to use a good sizing lube, the spray on lube is to thin.

Mauser 6818 I sent you the info that you wanted. Let me know if this helps.
Has anyone else be playing with their 358's? If so anything good.

Hey guys,

Just got my gun back from Sonex, and is it a beauty! While he was working on it, he even sighted it in at 120yds and was getting 1/2 dollar size groups. Not too bad for one that has not had any tweaking at all! Started with Ben's pet load of N135 and 200 gr Barnes TSX. I am looking at trying some new loads as I can get the time to do so to fine tune it and get it sighted at longer range to see what she can really do. Sonex had one guy getting 7/8" groups with N133 and 200 Gr. Barnes. I have actually shot Sonex's personal rifle and I will say these are a real hoot to shoot and will certainly kick any Indiana deer's butt all over the place and to boot at long ranges.

I went with a Winchester Model 70 and a Douglas premium barrel for mine with a Leupold 3-7X and had Sonex cut and crown it at 22". I can speak truthfully about Sonex and his rifles and I will say I am happy as happy can be with mine and Sonex's work. Now, if I can just get a huge buck to walk in front of it! I hope to shoot it myself this weekend, and will keep you guys posted

Mauser

Took out the 358WSSM today, to do some fine tuning. Very accurate to start out and did not have to do much other than have fun with it. I know I can get even better accuracy with this gun, but for Deer Season she is shooting Quarter size groups at 100 yards and 1/2 Dollar size groups at 150 Yards consistently. This was using VV N133 @ 47 grains, with the Barnes 200 Gr. TSX bullet. After season I am going to stretch it out to 250 Yards and really try to work on several loads to get it even better. This thing has more than enough "thump" needed for Whitetail and is very accurate shooting.

Will keep you posted.

Mauser

Well Guys here is an update on my 358WSSM. Of course I could not wait to get to my stand and get that huge 10 pointer Saturday Morning...Well obviously the only thing I accomplished Saturday was to get an all day shower and have my new gun thouroughly washed down! What a miserable, nasty,wet, day from Hades that was! Went at it again Sunday,much better and lots of deer....just no shooters. Monday was the day though. Out for 40 minutes and the grunt call did the trick with a very respectable 9 Pointer coming in to get a look at what was going on. At 65 yards I let my new rifle loose for its first dance. I was absolutely stunned at the performance of this cartridge. Like most here, I have hunted with slug guns and muzzleloaders. I cannot count the times, and I mean a lot of them, I have placed absolutely perfect shots and still had to chase the critters down. I do not brag, and I am just another "Joe Deer Hunter" but I have never had to use more than one shot on any animal I have harvested, and have never lost an animal... but always had to go find em 50 or 75 yards away. Just frustrating more than anything else as you would think a 12 gauge 3" inch Magnum slug would surely keep em planted. No problem with that this this time though! I placed the shot as always, and fired, not knowing what to really expect. This deer just dropped and I mean dropped hard like a sack of bricks! I mean to tell you this fellow went down faster than a house of cards, and did not move! It was literally like it was hit with a huge invisible hammer. Before I had my rifle built, I heard about how this cartridge performed like a sledge hammer on deer. I am a true believer now though. It was simply awesome. I truly love this rifle.

Mauser:D

Your reason was exactly why I switched from a .44 magnum to a .45-70 for Indiana deer over 20 years ago. Tracking sucks and you will find that a deer that drops in its tracks tastes a LOT better than one who runs off, even for just a short range. Good hunting and good shooting, and with a rifle and ammo you built. Nothing like it is there? I cannot wait to try my .458 SOCOM, .500 Phantom, and .358 HDH next year. Pistols are fine but I have killed enough deer with pistols, now its time to try rifles for a while.

Hello Big Bore,

If you remember I talked wth you quite a bit back in August about this cartridge, the rifle, and how to go about it....I owe you a big thanks! Your advice and information helped me tremendously to get this all accomplished. Thank You very much for all the time you spent! Are you back in Indiana yet?

It is also nice to see that you experienced the same thing with deer always running on you? Not that it was a big deal, but your right, when they are shot and just drop dead, it is much easier than when they decide they can still run 100 yards into the botom of a deep ravine!

Going out tomorrow to see if the rifle has the same effect on a Doe.:D

Thanks, and hope to talk with you about your season.

Mauser

I am so glad to hear it all worked out for you. I don't get back to God's country for another 238 days. But the new house is coming along faster than I had anticipated. And we CANNOT move in early. I guess the builder will slow down some with winter coming but he is really kicking butt on it right now.
My .358 HDH is on a bit of a hold right now. I had considered abandoning the LR-308 platform in favor of the AR-15 and have DT build me an upper but since I have all that I need for the LR-308 except the barrel (and that is going to be the big delay) I really could not justify chucking all that and going with the AR-15 right now. With the new house going up, construction loan payments to make, as well as paying for the house in VA, my projects are creeping to a halt just like the economy! Oh well, I still have the AR-15 in Indiana legal .458 SOCOM and the LR-308 in Indiana legal .500 Phantom so it is not like I don't have something to hunt with when I do get back if the .358 is not done by then.
Here in VA I am not hunting. Just too much of a PITA finding private land and the hunting clubs here have waiting lists for the good ones that is several years long, and my stay here was only 4 years to being with and its about over. Plus, most hunt with dogs and growing up in KY and then spending my adulthood in IN where dogs are illegal, I cannot get the feeling about dog hunting being wrong, not that it is mind you, only that it feels wrong to one who has grown up where it was illegal for the most part of 50 plus years. Regarding the meat tasting "gamy" on deer that do a little running, in VA the deer are half scared out of their wit's being chased by anywhere from 1 to a dozen dogs so I am surprised the people around here really know what venison taste like since all they eat is soaked in adrenaline! Many here actually frown on those like us who wait in stands to ambush the deer the way I sort of look scant-eyed at their hunting method. But I know our method produces better tasting meat when you drop 'em where they stand. It would not hurt my feelings one bit to never track a deer again, not even for 10 yards! And with your report of the .358 hitting them that hard, it really makes be want to go ahead and get this project finished even in light of current events.
Let me know about that doe you are certainly going to get!