http://news.clevescene.com/2007-11-14/news/contract-killing/1

I didn't know these places existed, What kind of fun is it when there's no risk? It's like that episode of the Twilight Zone when the dead guy thinks he's in heaven and keeps winning when he's gambling. Only to find out he's in ****. If you're guaranteed a kill, is it still a sport? Where's the skill?

A true hunter won't see any sport in it at all. But there are thousands of guys that just want bragging rights to having a big buck on the wall, so they can tell their pals a made up story.

Lots of this going on with deer, pheasants, elk and buffalo even here in Idaho. Montana and Wyoming are trying to get Idaho to adopt the same laws they have making canned hunting illegal. It's sure got my vote.

It's a different world than when most of us grew up. High speed everything including killing your game animals. Fly in from your big city condo or penthouse, line up the sights and pull the trigger. No mountains to climb, no mud to trek thru and a few weeks later your freezer boasts steaks and that big animal is mounted on your wall. From there you can tell how you slogged thru the mud and muck and climbed the tall mountains and made that six hundred yard shot in the rain.

Isn't instant gratification wonderful!!

My only problem is the question of converting game animals, which theoretically belong to the public, into livestock which belong to the landowner.

Aside from that, I see a ban on canned hunts as an unwarranted infringement on personal rights. If I raise angus cattle or goats or chickens and somebody wants to pay me to shoot one of them, it should be my right to do so.

Careful here guys. If this is the same bill that would prohibit hunting exotics or behind a fence, the legal interpretation of that can really bite all hunters. Exotic, or non-idigenious species can include critters like Ring-necked Pheasants, Spanish and Russian Boars, even outlawing some North American game that has expanded its range to areas it wasn't before.

Also, if it wasn't for the efforts of some of the exotic game ranches in Texas and Florida, the scimitar-horned oryx, blackbuck, addax and many other animals would be extinct from the face of the earth right now. Animals such as the nilgai could not be hunted to any extent because of India's closure.

Also, who says hunting some ranches or fenced areas isn't sporting? What size is large enough and how high can a cattle fence be before the wild animals inside it can or cannot be hunted?

If you aren't real careful on supporting bills like this and just read what the media puts out, you could end hunting altogether...

I think more hunters should support fair chace and stay away from these petting zoos. High fenced ranches are becoming the norm, go sit in a living room on stilts over a feeder, when the bell rings game comes in and shoot...Anyone else see the problem with this? I don't see any difference between that and shooting a cow in a pasture. Its giving hunting a bad spin and more fuel for the Antis. To each his own thats just my thoughts.

The folks that run the canned hunts use exactly the argument that Ken did above. The elk farms and Pheasant shooting farms here in Idaho say they are raising livestock and they have a right to bring folks in to shoot them. In Southern Idaho this year a bunch of farm raised elk escaped and now many of those are breeding into the wild stock of native elk.

Lots of ramifications here besides what many consider poor sportsmanship and fair chase laws. Right, wrong or indifferent this is a question that most states are going to have to consider in the next few years. Montana and Wyoming have decided not to allow canned hunting of big game animals. Idaho still allows it with certain restrictions.

alyeska338 brings out some excellent points that also need considering. This is a tough question and even as old fashioned as I am this question needs some re-thinking by me and by folks that are on both sides of this issue. I can see there's more at stake here than my initial knee jerk reaction to hunting fenced enclosers.

My only problem is the question of converting game animals, which theoretically belong to the public, into livestock which belong to the landowner.

This is exactly the problem I have with high fenced hunting. And I don't care how large the ranch is either. In Texas a Game animal is supposed to be property of the public. Theoretically, if a game animal can come or go from a property freely, there is some chance that people other than a single landowner can hunt that animal. With a high fence, it is guaranteed that only that landowner may hunt that animal, unless someone else pays the price of admission. So the so-called game animal is now that landowner's private property and a commodity at that. It's a subtle difference, but there; i.e., yes there are ranches all over which charge to hunt without high fences, and that is perfectly fine. But the deer on those ranches may come and go. I will never support the idea of a high fenced ranch that charges for hunting anything other than non-game or exotic quarry. If a ranch chooses to put up a high fence on their property, I think it should be illegal to hunt Game animals on that property. That would kill the financial incentive for high fences except for exotics.

This arguement has been re-hashed several times on the Forum. We have a 200 acre high fence across the road from our hunting lease. That seems a little small to hunt deer but I am not the judge here.
If I owned the ranch that I currently lease which is over 8500 acres, and if I could afford it, I would high fence it in a heartbeat. I would then make it my goal to raise the healthiest deer herd I could.
As a conservationists, that would be my goal.
As a hunter I would expect to pay more for the opportunity and enjoy seeing more and bigger deer.
You don't have to hunt places like this but lets not try to make it impossible for the other guy to do so.
On this issue, I think we need to remain together.

Just be really careful, read the bill itself, not the spin put on it by the media or some legislator. Read the bill and understand its nuances. If it says no hunting behind a fence, well that would lock out most of the hunters in the lower 48. Nobody could hunt on anyone's cattle farm or anything else. If there is a number of acreage that the animal must be free to roam, careful if a river or other natural obstacle would obstruct the animal's passage.

I can appreciate the anger by some of the pen-shot animals, but if we aren't careful and the language of the bill is the least bit ambiguous, we'll all pay for it in one way or the other. READ the BILL, don't rely on the media to tell you what it says. Do NOT accept someone telling you that the spirit or intention of the bill is one thing, but that is not explicitly spelled out therein. The letter of the law is what matters.

Deer that have been transplated from one area to another could become "exotic" or the pheasants, California quail, and any other number of animals could become non-huntable species after the bill passes. What about those Canadian wolves that were introduced to the western states a few years ago? They aren't the exact species that once roamed the Rocky Mountains and great plains. Might not be able to hunt them in effort to control their numbers. How'd that be?

This arguement has been re-hashed several times on the Forum. We have a 200 acre high fence across the road from our hunting lease. That seems a little small to hunt deer but I am not the judge here.
If I owned the ranch that I currently lease which is over 8500 acres, and if I could afford it, I would high fence it in a heartbeat. I would then make it my goal to raise the healthiest deer herd I could.
As a conservationists, that would be my goal.
As a hunter I would expect to pay more for the opportunity and enjoy seeing more and bigger deer.
You don't have to hunt places like this but lets not try to make it impossible for the other guy to do so.
On this issue, I think we need to remain together.
I agree, T...

Just because they aren't coming after your particular type of hunting right now, doesn't mean they won't in the future.

Seems this issue and the opinions formed about it originate in what everyone is used to and their respective frame of reference. I have mixed feelings about it. As example, there is an awful lot of public land here in Idaho. I absolutely would not take a deer or elk hunt in an enclosure....not in Idaho anyway. But I'm not faced with the choice of a fenced hunt, or NO hunt. That might be the choice many people face that don't have wide open space like I do, or a really limited schedule.

I'd like to hunt African plains game. If you take a look at South Africa, and you can throw a dead cat very far, you're likely to hit a high-fenced game ranch. Such ranches tend to be quite large, however. If hunting a desired species at one of those is one of the best options offered to me, I don't want to be barred from doing it. If I come to a fence corner with a trapped animal, I don't have to shoot it.

Concerning the issue of whether public game animals had a fence built around them....yeah, I'm sure that's happened. Can't really drive out all the animals effectively. I do believe that a lot of enclosure stock probably comes from overpopulated national park herds, which isn't available to hunters anyway.

Let me ask, what would be worse: A big ranch with a low fence, and "No Hunting" signs all around, or a high fence with hunting allowed?

Fenced hunting - at least in the US - isn't for me at the moment, but I'm not going to close the door on it just yet. Sure wouldn't mind hunting some of those exotics in TX.

Shawn,
I've never hunted a high fence ranch nor have I hunted over a food plot or human initiated mineral lick. I've never hunted a water source during the dry season, either. However, I don't live where those are practices conducted by many hunters. I've only hunted from a tree stand once in my life. Just because I don't do it, doesn't mean the way I do things is the only way.

Some of the deer I have hunted in the Prince William Sound (I suspect more wild and free ranging than many have experienced) were transplanted by our Dept of Fish and Game. Our Elk on Afognak and Raspberry Islands were transplanted. Our bison (once plentiful here) have be re-planted...

Want to manage those wolves that were re-introduced in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming through hunts? This bill is a bad idea.

As I said before, without some of the exotic ranches in Texas and Florida, the addax, scimitar horned oryx, blackbuck and many other species would be extinct from the face of the earth.

Instead of creating a law that outlaws what any of you don't like, why not just avoid them? Don't give them your money. Let's face it, we are a capitalist country, if you can't make money doing it, you won't survive. If there is no market, then it doesn't pay for itself. The guys shooting these animals can't enter them into any legitimate category of any record book. If you don't frequent these places, why does it matter? High fenced hunting or hunting exotics is not what anti-hunters are going after. They are after hunting. If you think PETA or Friend of Animals is going to let up because hunters support this bill, you are dreaming. It will only give them more motivation to go after bow hunting, or hunting on Federal Lands, or going after hunting with a rifle and "sniper" scope....

These people are not your friends and giving them a bone is not going to placate them.

alyeska,
You have no argument from me to your well-stated position.

What is just as disturbing is pricing out hunting, making it a private reserve for rich people. This may have worked in the middle ages in Europe but it's not how we do things here. This of a private reserve as a toll road. The worse the condition of the public road, the more people use the toll road. What incentive would a private fenced reserve have for maintaining public lands? Think carefully, what kind of people can afford to pay $8,000 a head? Do you think these people will legislate to conserve public space for all or to favor their buddies who own private ranches? This is what I am worried about. I don't know about you guys but that kind of money would pay my kids college tuition for a year.
Having a private reserve is one thing. Stocking it with game which is basically domesticated with racks so large they can barely move their heads...sad. But I wouldn't make it illegal. It's private property. Just don't call it hunting.

Well, let me present another side of the coin.

How much land is locked up in Indian reservations? Can these be considered "private" lands, or are they government owned? Here in my state a sizable portion of huntable lands are so restricted.

Now, if you want to talk fee hunting, try to hunt on these reservations. First, there is usually a waiting list (primarily for elk) and the fees START in the middle 4 digit figure. SOME fees for a trophy elk can range upwards of the middle 5 digit costs. Deer, bear, turkey, javelina, even fishing, all have escalating fees. Then, you have to have a guide that you pay for. Want to try reservation hunting?

True, public hunting lands are getting the squeeze, although most states have programs to purchase acreage for wildlife sanctuaries and public hunting. With the demand placed on these lands, the game really doesn't have much chance of growing old and the annual harvest is primarily young animals. A few old mossybacks manage to evade the hunters, but not many.

So - where do you go to take a decent buck during season? Maybe a game farm. Or, maybe a low fenced lease (like in most of Texas) that practices deer management. Culling of excess does, establishing minimum point restrictions, supplemental feeding, restricting the number of hunters per acreage - all conducive to good herd health, growth and availability.

Yes, this is an income producer for the rancher. Just like the cattle or oil wells on the property. Why not? If this offends, then the overcrowded and less than desirable game public lands are your only choice.

Unless you are a property owner of acreage, or know someone that is and will allow you access.

Every bit of game taken is managed in some way, including the wildlife in the the middle of Alaska.

Permits, tags, population surveys, kill surveys.... the list goes on and on. We've tagged them, vaccinated them, transplated them, etc......

If it wasn't managed we wouldn't have any. I think that's clear.

Every bit of land on this earth is surrounded, at a minumum, by the oceans. And there's other physical barriers - rivers, lakes, canyons and mountain walls that can't be climbed, et.

So before anyone gets around to making some absolute judgement on how much land is 'enough' for the animal to be considered free ranging .... stop and consider the ethics of hunting on an island, or any place where the natural barriers of the land force animal traffic and so on.

Man-made water sources, farm fields - even bits of cover that have been left for game animals, those are all the hand of man affecting the outcome.

It is just way more complicated than whether there is a fence around the place or not.

Truth be told.... having hunted high-fenced and low-fenced ranches, MOST of the the time, I see more animals on the low-fenced places. That's because they're overpopulated.

Chew on that a bit. Generally down here, the fences are to keep the population down, not up.

Here's a better law so not to infringe on others...


All ungulates that are considered livestock must wear an orange ear tag that measures 3" by 3". This tag must never be removed from the animal, even in case of death.

Jim

Some of you guys are falling right into the trap the Anti-Hunting crowd wants you to fall into. The original post just wanted to know where is the sport, what skill it takes, how it could be considered fun. Nothing was mentioned about should it be outlawed, but everyone seemed to jump on that bandwagon quickly. Just because you don’t agree with something all of a sudden it should be outlawed? Personally I don’t see any difference between canned hunts and raising livestock. If that’s how someone wants to spend there money fine. I personally think they should be called canned shoots instead of canned hunts. As long as the animal is taken humanely and the shooter is honest about where the trophy on the wall came from I wouldn’t consider it unethical. I could never consider it sporting by any means but to each their own. You are better off having that type of hunter/shooter in a controlled environment than out in the woods with you ruining your experience.

I have a lot of opinion on this but "it don't matter what I think". Money and influence is the issue in the "sporting world" now as in everything else. I do have some pride left thinking that we were the last holdout in a lot of areas.

I don't intend to ever hunt in an area where the deer have no chance of survival.However,where I now hunt,deerare somewhat scarce.I sometimes consider shooting a "sure thing"in order to evaluate my hunting load,which includes a bullet of my own design.
So,I can see why "hunters" with a low esteem of themselves shoot deer who are helpless.These places exist only because there is a demand for them.
I would like to see them regulated by a govvernment agency,andgraded as to which affford some measure of fairchase,and thosethat do not.
Frank

I don't intend to ever hunt in an area where the deer have no chance of survival.However,where I now hunt,deerare somewhat scarce.I sometimes consider shooting a "sure thing"in order to evaluate my hunting load,which includes a bullet of my own design.
So,I can see why "hunters" with a low esteem of themselves shoot deer who are helpless.These places exist only because there is a demand for them.
I would like to see them regulated by a govvernment agency,andgraded as to which affford some measure of fairchase,and thosethat do not.
Frank
I have hunted on high fenced ranches and I can assure you that I don't suffer from "low self-esteem"

As far as the government getting involved, God Help Us!

If you continue to hunts areas where deer are scarce, I predict that you will either stop hunting them, or look for areas that are better managed, so that you will see them.

To what degree that better managed area is, depends on the hunter's ambitions and expectations.

"Regulated by a government agency" on private land really bothers me.

I think we all need to think before we type!

tpv
"We need to think before we type"
I did a lot of thinking before I typed about a subject that is creating a discussion like this.
ALL game is regulated,to some extent by a Goverment Agency.There is the Federal Fish and Game and easch State has it's own Fish and Game agency.
If you ever still hunted a deer in the Catskills,you might find that shooting deer in a Zoo is no longer rewarding.I have no problem with people like you,I just prefer my own way of hunting.
Incidently,I continue to hunt in country that has less deer because I have a diminished mobility capacity and must hunt only in places that I know intimately,and are closeby.
Even though I got no deer last year,and saw only one tail,so far,this year,I have no wish to hunt in a Zoo,
Those of you who hunt in managed game areas,which are technicly,"fenced in",and those who impose regulations on themselves,are not to be confused with Zoo hunters.
Frank

tpv
"We need to think before we type"
I did a lot of thinking before I typed about a subject that is creating a discussion like this.
ALL game is regulated,to some extent by a Goverment Agency.There is the Federal Fish and Game and easch State has it's own Fish and Game agency.
If you ever still hunted a deer in the Catskills,you might find that shooting deer in a Zoo is no longer rewarding.I have no problem with people like you,I just prefer my own way of hunting.
Incidently,I continue to hunt in country that has less deer because I have a diminished mobility capacity and must hunt only in places that I know intimately,and are closeby.
Even though I got no deer last year,and saw only one tail,so far,this year,I have no wish to hunt in a Zoo,
Those of you who hunt in managed game areas,which are technicly,"fenced in",and those who impose regulations on themselves,are not to be confused with Zoo hunters.
Frank

I don't mean to get testy about this subject. As I already said, if I had the money, I would buy my own place and high fence it. I like the idea of raising the best quality deer the land will allow. I don't see anything wrong with that, and I don't see anything wrong with someone who has worked hard to have the money to shoot one of these big bucks. Someone with more money than time.
I don't think we can regulate jealosy or envy. That is what a lot of this arguement is about.
Our place is not high fenced,but with three bucks in front of me this evening, I shot another hog.
I just wonder, if given the chance, would some of you guys turn down the opportunity of a free hunt on a classic high fenced ranch with monster bucks? I don't mind enjoying the fruits of someones elses labor.
Anyway, I don't mean to get testy about it. When I watch those shows on TV, I just hope those hunters appreciate that opportunity.

If you want to become inspired, try being a part of one of the "Hunts of a Lifetime" where life threatened youngsters are given these free hunts to enjoy with their families. It'll break your heart. Also, a big push on to offer these hunts to wounded and handicapped veterans.
That's when these places are at their best.

Have a good Holiday

tpv
"I don't mean to get testy"
However,yourarticle presents NO argument to what I had said.
We both agree that there is a place for these Zoos,and that you have a perfect right to shoot deer there.You also have a perfect right to build a Zoo and sell shooting rights to interested "hunters".
I will admit that it would be fun to have a chance ot a whole gang of bucks.But,for me,shooting in a Zoo could never be more then a one time event.
I'm writing this at 5:15 in the AM.I oot up to hunt but the legs will not cooperate.I'll try again tomorrow.
I have plenty of memories that absolutely cannot be duplicated at a Zoo.
Have fun
Frank

I went back and carefully read that article. Typical "journalism" these days - full of errors. Even the hunters who read it are getting mislead.

1. Whitetails are not domesticated animals. This not the same as shooting your dog.

2. You don't get trophy bucks by just wanting them. They have to grow up!!!!

3. The kills are not guaranteed. Read it again. You don't have to pay the entire fee if you don't kill. That's the part that is guaranteed. You are not guaranteed a dead animal.

There's a bunch of people who can't figure out that you don't get a 180 class buck by shooting all of the first and second year bucks. They have to grow up, folks, and that won't happen on public land, or any land that isn't carefully managed.

Good nutrition, no overcrowding, and no shooting the youngsters.... THAT is what it takes to raise trophy deer. Not high fences. There are a LOT of places that are low-fenced with good quality deer and the opportunity to shoot big deer. And yes it'll cost you a lot of money to do that, too.

It costs you a lot of money to have an outfitter haul you far enough up into the mountains to get away from the sea of hunter orange, too. Or go to Alaska. Or Africa.

Is this guy raising deer in a pen? I don't know. I've hunted on less than 100 acres that was an absolute jungle. You could have been lost for days on that place.

There is a section of land in Kansas that is supposed to not vary in elevation more than 6 inches, in a square mile! There's 640 acres that wouldn't be too sporting to fence....

I have not been to this game farm so I can't comment on whether it is fair chase or not. And frankly, neither can anyone else here who hasn't been.

I don't think anyone here supports canned hunts, and I don't know anybody anywhere that does.

But just try defining them in statute.... it isn't easy. It's way more complicated than how many acres and how tall the fences are.

Frank, I wish you luck on your hunt.... I really do. Wish I had some mountains in my backyard to stomp around in....

Good nutrition, no overcrowding, and no shooting the youngsters.... THAT is what it takes to raise trophy deer. Not high fences. There are a LOT of places that are low-fenced with good quality deer and the opportunity to shoot big deer. And yes it'll cost you a lot of money to do that, too. Exactly.

I don't think anyone here supports canned hunts, and I don't know anybody anywhere that does. I don't support the idea, but don't actively think they should be banned. We kill cows all the time to eat. It's a given that we kill a harvested deer. So they aren't sacred cows. My issue with a high fence is the private property vs. the public property (of the deer itself). Paying to hunt is also not the issue as it absolutely is a landowner's right to charge. They certainly have to pay property taxes and maintenance for their own place ... no law against free enterprise.

I think KenK put it very succinctly: My only problem is the question of converting game animals, which theoretically belong to the public, into livestock which belong to the landowner.

Alyeska and MikeG are absolutely right in that we must be careful of any bills proposed with loose or subtle language or well-intended rules with the always lurking time bomb -- unintended consequences.

Anyone can play devil's advocate to another's post. For instance ... regulating on private property ... If a major stream crosses your property, do you have the right to dam it and deny all those downstream of the water simply because you can do whatever you want to on your own property? I'm sure there are two answers folks will swear up and down to.

I personally think it will taint the record book, just like the world record bass being caught out of a fish tank where the gene pool has been optimized. I really don't care about the record book anyway so go to it boys but I would not feel acomplished for raising the big record and then shooting or catching it. But like I said it all comes down to the dollar. It always will.

For me, it is all about the ven and the friendships. Oh! and shooting little groups at the range with fodder I put together myself.

I think if the animals are wild and free is a big part but to know I killed a huge animal because I had the cash would not be big to me. Going to a nice place and having a great time and killing a nice animal would be great.

Now, did that make it clear.;)

I agree, T...

Just because they aren't coming after your particular type of hunting right now, doesn't mean they won't in the future.

trouble is, they are coming after my particular type of hunting; inexpensive. allow this to continue, we are apt to be like Europe; only the rich will be able to hunt.

Instead of creating a law that outlaws what any of you don't like, why not just avoid them? Don't give them your money. Let's face it, we are a capitalist country, if you can't make money doing it, you won't survive. If there is no market, then it doesn't pay for itself.

because Doctors and Lawyers and other professionals will thereby creating nothing but expensive hunting. Lookout Lords of Land.

And pity the poor landowner that gets stuck between a couple of highfence bigtime owners. I've seen more that a couple of good hunting areas just absolutely ruined by highfence operations.

Unfortunately, we live in a society today that wants to write laws without much forethought and THINK they can rectify them later. Oh, it's good for the state, no matter what little man gets trampled.

I guess a little off topic but the few high fences I see around here are to keep the deer OUT not in.

I wish I had a fat doe penned, I'd go knock her in the head with a hammer. I wanted to make some sausage over the holiday and they are not cooperating!

Hope no one thinks I'm a slob hunter.

I don't have any private property here in Arizona to hunt. The public lands with desirable game is rather limited on the whole. Only way you get tags for big game is by a draw system that doesn't have very great odds on obtaining one. I'm too weak in the knees and short of breath to get into the high country even if I drew a tag.

As a result, I hunt on a lease in North Texas with friends. It is surrounded by a 5 strand barbed fence that is 4 foot high. My assigned portion contains around 2500 acres and the deer roam freely over the entire 8500. Guess some will consider this "high fence" hunting. The deer come and go on adjoining properties. Some of the adjacent landowners have agreed to help improve the deer population by restricted hunting and harvest. A 10 point minimum is established for bucks (one only) and the taking of doe is encouraged to assist in lowering the buck/doe ratio.

This coming month, I'll take my 8 year old grandson to the lease so he can shoot his first deer (a doe). I'll take a doe also to help with the culling. A buck is going to have to be an outstanding 10 pointer or better before I'll drop the hammer on one. Last year's 10 pointer is gracing the wall now over the computer, so one more won't mean a whole lot.

If you consider this "zoo" hunting, canned hunting or "high fenced" hunting, so be it.

that ain't high fence. high fence is the 8-9footers.

Deer can stand flat footed and laugh at 4' fence. ****, I used to be able to.

BTW... goodluck to granson.

Hunting is going to cost more every year whether it is high fence, low fence, or no fence.

That's because there's less land and more people to hunt it.

Supply and demand....

kdub's post plants the question in my mind of what exactly constitutes "canned hunting"? Probably everyone has their own definition.

A 4 ft fence and 2500 acre hunt area sure doesn't bring up "canned hunt" in my mind. What comes to my mind with "canned hunt" is someone haggling price over pictures of the elk or deer available to kill, then goes out to the fence and shoots through it, plugging the animal he picked. I have no idea if this actually happens, but that's how these things are portrayed in the media. Seems Frank's term "zoo hunting" would fit here too.

I finally read the article in the link in the first post; painful read by an obviously non-hunter, maybe even an anti-hunter. Sensational wording, like "...reindeer movies...", "...enormous carcass...", and (my favorite) "...farmers are reluctant to let strangers shoot up their land." reveal the bias of the writer.

I'd have to say that the operation featured in the article comes close to my idea of a canned hunt, but I haven't been there, and I surely wouldn't trust this article to have given it a fair review.

Such a hunt wouldn't be very satisfying to me; would be missing out on many of the things I enjoy in the style of hunting I'm used to. As someone else posted, at least these people are not out clogging "my" woods, making my experience less enjoyable. If they are happy with their experience, great. Less pressure on my area....

Kdub
If that "Zoo" comment was addressed to Me,my answer is "No".Your area is too big for my idea of a Zoo,and you self regulate your hunting.
Frank

I went hunting on a high-fenced ranch yesterday with my son. The landowner is a friend and lets me shoot does and spikes and hogs for free just to control the herd.

Sitting in a box blind - about the only way to hunt with a 7 year old.

We didn't see anything. Still had an enjoyable time.

The problem with the term 'canned' hunting - or anything else to describe such a thing is, you know what it is when you see it. But it sure is hard to define in statute.

I'm a little reluctant to put the task toward outlawing it to the same legislators who would be glad to ban our guns in a heartbeat.

I gotta admit when I shot my bison it wasn't too sporting. It was glorified grocery shopping. Not because it was canned - because they just aren't too smart. That's why they were nearly wiped out the first time. The critter had plenty of opportunity to escape. It just wasn't smart enough to.

It ate good though.

So where does my idea for profit from hunting fit. Raise game chickens and release them on a 17 acre enclosure. More to keep the preditors out than the chickens in. Have stands and you pay per bird you shoot. Bow or airgun. Just to keep the noise down. I dress and package your bird for the trip home to the cook pot.

Strictly free range wild chickens.

.

Strictly free range wild chickens.

I've shot many a game fowl in my day. I'd pay $2.00 a pound.

So where does my idea for profit from hunting fit. Raise game chickens and release them on a 17 acre enclosure. More to keep the preditors out than the chickens in. Have stands and you pay per bird you shoot. Bow or airgun. Just to keep the noise down. I dress and package your bird for the trip home to the cook pot.

Strictly free range wild chickens.
Now that's a canned hunt, I'd be interested in!!!
What's a trophy chicken look like?

I hit a chicken with a potato cannon, once. Quite the accident :rolleyes: although "Lucky" the chicken lived to see another day.

Smoothbore and no sights! Couldn't have done it again ....

So where does my idea for profit from hunting fit. Raise game chickens and release them on a 17 acre enclosure. More to keep the preditors out than the chickens in. Have stands and you pay per bird you shoot. Bow or airgun. Just to keep the noise down. I dress and package your bird for the trip home to the cook pot.

Strictly free range wild chickens.
Make sure you keep th e rooster/hen sex ratio as close to one to one as possible. Also how many chickens per acre are you raising?
I guess you game pole wouldn't need to be so big!

Field dressing and dragging wouldn't be that hard of a chore either! :D

One thing that the anti-hunters are trying to do is to devide the house, or split the hunters. The anti's themselves dont have the power, but they have a chance if the hunters help them. Regardless of your opinion on pen hunting, you must vote pro hunting or they will win. They know that they cant outlaw huntin all together but they can possibly get pen huntins, then baiting, Then hunting with hounds, pretty soon you will have to claim self defense to take veneson home. Think big picture guys.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned CWD yet? Isn't it the association of high fence places and CWD that caused Montana and Wyoming to outlaw the practice?
As for "canned hunts," I have a high school classmate that owns one. He has a 20acre enclosure that he will release an elk in for your hunt. In this fenced area, there is only one tree, and that is in the center. From what I have seen, you can pretty much get a clear shot on the elk from outside the fence with no problems...NO place for it to hide.
Hmmm....sounds like a challenging hunt, doesn't it?!

Jim

I love this "infighting" arguement. We are helping antihunters.

Why not support poaching. That is one form of hunting, at least it used to be until it was outlawed. That was the original intent of "hunting seasons"; to set means and methods as well as limit numbers. With the advent of "primitive" seasons, i.e. bowseasons and muzzleloaders, the intent was to give limited range/functionality weapons a season of their own so they could hunt per the weapons demand(camo and stealth)...safety. Then comes along the compound and changes all. The compound per se didn't change things, but the evolution of bigger and better sure has. Now we have drawlocks and crossbows to contend with, not to mention the Lamps/ Managed Land(Texas) that allow hunting with rifles to start in October during bow season...doesn't sound safe to me to be running around in camo when guns are just across the fence.

Now, pen/high fence comes along and really hurts the image of hunting. Here in Texas, baiting is allowed and I've hunted over feeders and I'll prolly do it again. But it is not my REAL idea of hunting. Yes, hunting oak flats and trails is just anothe form of "baiting", but at least you have to "HUNT'' where these are, therefore HUNT the deer. I am not going to politic for "Baitings" demise, but I sure wished they wouldn't show so much of it on TV. It sure looks ugly to me and I am a hunter. The pen/high fence issure looks ugly to me also.

But that's just me.

Laws ought to be written with the INTENT written in also and taking priority, not some $$$$$$lawyers twisted interpretation of poorly written words that don't cover 25 years of unusual development. Of course then the intent would be twisted also.

So, it seems we are stuck with ourselves and can only hope things fall in OUR favor.

HPdrifter - reading your post, I can't figure if you're arguing against baited/fenced hunting, against firearms during bow season, against modern archery, or saying we should legislate against all forms of hunting except "primitive long bow" hunting. :confused:

The only thing I MIGHT be against is the high fences.

I'm tired of the " don't be against high fence because it is what the anti's need to help them fight their cause" argument.

If we aren't against something, then the crap just keeps building until hunting looks like just shooting. More fuel for the anti's.

OK, I see your point and agree with you on most all.

Hunted a ranch in Texas that had primarily low fences on most of the property and then had 2500 acres of high fence which contained exotic game and some trophy native game. The high fenced area was reserved for clients of the owner's oil field business that would be flown in on company planes still dressed in business suits and ties. They would be given a firearm of their choice plus ammo, driven out to the enclosure in a Jeep Grand Wagoneer with a "guide". Whatever particular game type the client desired was located, the client would shoot from the vehicle and the guide would load it into the Wagoneer, haul it back to the ranch headquarters where the vaquero's would dress it, send the meat to a processor and the head/cape to a taxidermist - all at the owner's costs.

That, to me, was "Canned Hunting" in it's highest form.

The rest of the property was pretty much normal hunting, except conducted from stands. Feeders would be located at least a 1/4 mile from any stand and out of view. Ranch minimum was 8 points and if you shot a buck, you were obligated to shoot a doe. Had a contest with a 4x Stetson hat going to the hunter with the biggest doe for that group. There were some nice bodied bucks on that ranch which were allowed to cross-mingle with other ranches in the area due to the low property fences.

The only thing I MIGHT be against is the high fences.

I'm tired of the " don't be against high fence because it is what the anti's need to help them fight their cause" argument.

If we aren't against something, then the crap just keeps building until hunting looks like just shooting. More fuel for the anti's.
How about this arguement then, We are also on a deer management porgram, and we do not shoot 8 point bucks. The goal for this ranch was 130 class or better 10 point minimum and we see them every week-end.

Now the owner of the ranch on our south fence line has high fenced. He brought in 5 Big South Texas Bucks to help that progran get going. If one of his 150 class bucks jumps the fence, is he going to survive on our lease,,,no!.

Our standards were high, but this rancher has higher standards which you can accomplish once you control your property. I don't want to hear that the deer belong to the state, when what most hunters want is to take advantage of the work and effort that the other rancher has initiated.

If you are not going to shoot over his fence line, then you are hoping that his superior deer herd will jump the fence to the ranch you are hunting. Why can't a man high fence his own ranch. What difference does it matter to the hunter on the other side unless he wants to take advantage of the situation.

That's why I think this whole arguement about high fences is based on envy or jealousy that you can't take advantage of that piece of property.

That's about as blunt as I can be.

Who cares if someone kills an "easy trophy". Its his ornament on the wall, so it doesn't matter to me.

BTW, Two of our hunters this year killed big 8 point bucks when they knew what the rules were. So in January when season is over, they will be informed to get their blinds, feeders, and trailer, and go. We also have "easy trophys", but is it worth loosing your lease over. They just did!

I don't want to hear that the deer belong to the state, when what most hunters want is to take advantage of the work and effort that the other rancher has initiated. .... That's why I think this whole arguement about high fences is based on envy or jealousy that you can't take advantage of that piece of property.

That is a rather pessimistic and narrow inference to draw TPV ... respectfully, I disagree. I for one oppose high-fences (not the typical barb wire fences which deer easily pass over) and it has absolutely nothing to do with envy or hoping to take advantage of someone elses "work." While it is true someone can shoot a deer that wonders off the property -- so what! (they belong to the public argument again). Besides, it works both ways and if the property in question is large enough, the fenceline trickle would not be too significant. I would never shoot game across a fenceline without permission. While I find the idea of "canned hunts" and artificially large trophys distasteful, that still isn't the issue (for me). As you say, if some guy puffs his chest over a canned hunt, oversized trophy, that's his deal not mine. BTW, I am not a rabid big govt. loving liberal either and want as little regulation as can be had of any shape/form.

Like hpdrifter said, the old, "oh ,you are falling into the anti's divide and conquer plan," is a false herring provided to shut people up with opposing views. The sky will not fall because of a little disagreement. If the "anti's" were to initiate a divisive agenda, I'm sure all but the most hardheaded of hunters would close ranks quickly once fully informed. It is simply amazing how quickly news disseminates on the Internet.

If my words are hash, I don't mean to be. But I have seen this issue "up close and personel" from both sides of the fence. The arguement never goes anywhere.

I've never heard a hunter tell a rancher that the state of Texas sure has helped you raise some big deer on your ranch. Once the place is high-fenced, the state will help manage, but all the expense is on the back of the rancher,or rancher/hunter.

Now I'm sorry I even brought this up. But yes, it depends on how domesticated the game is and how unsporting the hunter is doesn't it?

You don't need to be sorry about bringing it up. It was a hot issue down here when it first started, but now most people are use to it. We have three ranches within about 3 miles of us that are high fenced including one on our fence line. Some of our hunters had hunting stands built close to that south fence line before it was enclosed and the hunting was great. But since the work was done, it has changed the deer movement and the hunters were grumbling about it. See what I mean.
It doesn't mean that we have less deer, it just means that the deer's movement has changed.
I guess canned hunts do exist, but I don't think there are that many of them around.
Again. if I had the $$$, I'd buy my own place and high fence it in order to create a deer sanctuary. I'd grow the biggest bucks I could.
Good Luck

Having a private reserve is one thing. Stocking it with game which is basically domesticated with racks so large they can barely move their heads...sad. But I wouldn't make it illegal. It's private property. Just don't call it hunting.
I have to agree. Every time they pass a law that sounds good in the press they also add something that takes another bite out of our right to hunt ethically as well. If someone wants to hunt what is essentially farm stock? Well so be it. It isn't worth my losing what few rights I have left to stop them.

I'd like to anounce that the Gamecock Hunting Presearve is open for buisness. I figure my main clientel for the opening will be USC football fans since they are staying home for Christmas and they just can't get enough Gamecock. That's Univ. of South Carolina or you left coast folks. Now do I really know how to pluck a chicken?

Sorry guys. I just had to add some more levety. And as you can tell, I still have not found the spell check.

Are you taking deposits yet?
This subject is about the only one I get a little testy about.
But I really like the "chicken ranch" idea.
Me and a friend of mine were discussing the big hunting shows where all of the guides and ranches display their operations. Everyone is so serious about big deer, big racks and big money.

We thought it would be fun to pay for our own booth, and bring in a couple of mounted spike bucks, and rabbits. Maybe have a caged hamster on the table. Spread some beer cans around the booth, and announce "Tom & Ed's Cull Hunts - You won't see as many big deer but you'll have more fun and it won't cost as much as these other ranches"

I wonder if that would go over. At least it would be honest.

Now that's the spirit. Hunting is something we enjoy. It is one of the few things you can make your own and you still have a wide variety of options. I know there is a lot said for what we do now effecting what our kids and their kids got to do in the future but there are a lot bigger and more important issues that will shape our children's future to get in a huff about.

Do what you can but try to love each other and enjoy God's creation. He wants us to. And when others see our joy of what He has made they can see Jesus in us for sure.

Now. Go kill a chicken.

Hey Chief - when you use the "Quick Reply" box, look over to the upper right of the box. You will see a check mark below "ABC" - that's the spell check! :D

Thanks TW. It must be a Mozilla thing. I don't have that.

I'd like to anounce that the Gamecock Hunting Presearve is open for buisness.

Chief,
I wish you prosperity. Are slingshots and 9-irons legal here? They should be fairly quiet.:)

I think they should be. I will take it up with the BOD. Or should that be COTB or CFO. I just don't know who runs the show anymore.

Everyone here has such good argument and points to be shared. So good you almost had me convinced one way or another =) I for one understand that this type of "hunting" is just personal preference, I don't find it right, or wrong. I personally wouldn't pay that much money to do it, and I'm not that lazy (yet). But i would fence my own property if i had enough land to not feel like a total fraud.


also just felt like sharing, up north on my friends 88 acres in Isabella county Michigan, maybe 12-14 miles away theres a ridiculously high fence and incredibly long drive way. And come to think of it must of been around 200 acres give or take. Anyway we saw quite a few buffalo along the fence and road a few times. The more i read this thread the more it reminded me of this property... I tried finding something on google but couldnt find anything.

How about this arguement then, We are also on a deer management porgram, and we do not shoot 8 point bucks. The goal for this ranch was 130 class or better 10 point minimum and we see them every week-end.

Now the owner of the ranch on our south fence line has high fenced. He brought in 5 Big South Texas Bucks to help that progran get going. If one of his 150 class bucks jumps the fence, is he going to survive on our lease,,,no!.

Our standards were high, but this rancher has higher standards which you can accomplish once you control your property. I don't want to hear that the deer belong to the state, when what most hunters want is to take advantage of the work and effort that the other rancher has initiated.

If you are not going to shoot over his fence line, then you are hoping that his superior deer herd will jump the fence to the ranch you are hunting. Why can't a man high fence his own ranch. What difference does it matter to the hunter on the other side unless he wants to take advantage of the situation.

That's why I think this whole arguement about high fences is based on envy or jealousy that you can't take advantage of that piece of property.

That's about as blunt as I can be.

Who cares if someone kills an "easy trophy". Its his ornament on the wall, so it doesn't matter to me.

BTW, Two of our hunters this year killed big 8 point bucks when they knew what the rules were. So in January when season is over, they will be informed to get their blinds, feeders, and trailer, and go. We also have "easy trophys", but is it worth loosing your lease over. They just did!

you can offer up all the arguements you want, but I have just about been priced out of hunting. I'm sure others have to. When enough of us have been priced out, YOU lose much needed support.

I just want a place to hunt. I don't care about no stinking 130 class horns.

Last year, I posted info about a ranch that had guaranteed doe hunts. No kill/no pay for $250 per doe. You could kill up to 5 doe.
Not one person inquired.

Go figure!

Loan me $500 and I'll shoot a few does fer ya.

I happily hunt NForest, but you can't shoot does there and the d*mn monster buck madness has crept in there also. Gotta meet certain restrictions to be able to shoot them.

http://news.clevescene.com/2007-11-14/news/contract-killing/1

I didn't know these places existed, What kind of fun is it when there's no risk? It's like that episode of the Twilight Zone when the dead guy thinks he's in heaven and keeps winning when he's gambling. Only to find out he's in ****. If you're guaranteed a kill, is it still a sport? Where's the skill?

****, I wonder if the TimberGhost ranch is like this ?

If so , I will deff forget about going on a trip there !

It is not just going on here but in Africa too. My taxidermist told me a few archers went to Africa for leopard and each hunter got at least one leopard with the bow and all kills were in broad daylight and not over bait. To get a rifle shot at a leopard in daylight is very rare, to get within bow range is even harder. The taxidermist questioned the hunters and he believes from what they said that the cats were pen raised and or drugged.

Kudu40

Banning "Canned Hunts", especially of Non-native species is absolutely a restraint of trade. Such a ban should not be allowed to stand. That said...my personal preference would be for canned hunt operations to wither and die simply 'cause no one wishes to participate. If on the other hand, they flourish...so be it. Debating the issue of the minimum size of an area under fence reminds me of the old joke...
Man in a bar offers a pretty lady 10 million dollars for one night of sex. She thinks about it for a while, then agrees. He says...OK...how about one night for 100 dollars..?? She is immediately insulted, and asks the man..."what do you think I am...some kind of whore..??"
The man calmy replies..."Madam...we've already decided what you are by your initial response...all we're doing now is negotiating your price."

Yep Hate High Fense!! It gottens to the point that in TX there are almost no free range deer! Don't believe me try hunting Public land in TX You'd be lucky to see a deer let alone any with horns! I'm sorry Wild Game is just that wild !! No fense should impede them from moving anywhere. And I could careless if you feed them they are wild animals not your pets or your property!!

From what I have heard from many people, Texas whitetail hunts and all non native hunts are far from hunting. Sitting in a stand, not far from a timed feeder, the birds reming you when the feeder is about to turn on. The deer come from all directions. This to me is not hunting, it is shooting. The same can be done at any dairy farm when the cows return to the barn for milking. That said, if someone wants to pay to do that, by all means let them, but I don't consider anything that is killed under those cricumstances record worthy. I will continue to cherish the wild game I have killed in its native habitat over canned hunts.

Kudu40

This thread has been available for comment for some time and there are a lot of diverse opinions expressed - some several times!

Its time to close this one and move on.

Thread locked.