I've never considered reloading myself... but after paying almost $17 a box for 5 shells of 20 gauge Remington Core-Lokt Ultra this week (times a few boxes), I got to thinking...

Can you reload 20 gauge slugs??? I know the answer will more than likely be "no", but just thought I'd ask anyway.

What makes these rounds so darn expensive? The bullets and sabots don't seem any better than the Hornady's XTP's with a good MMP sabot that I shoot from my muzzleloader... and then you have a 20 gauge shell hulk, primer, powder...

I just don't see why they are so darn expensive, unless the loading process is what drives the price up.

Winchester, Federal, etc... all seem the same - why are they so expensive for a sabot slug???

All the best,
Glenn

I prefer to think that all things are possible. You just need the right tools and componants. Those sabots are what I don't where to find. Would have to search out a source for those. Published load data too.

I think they price them that way because most folks that hunt deer with them just don't shoot all that many in a season to justify tooling up to reload. They just throw the money down for a couple of boxes and go hunting. Makes a high profit margin for the makers.

Cheezywan

Gardners Cache, http://gardnerscache.com/12_gauge_sabot_slugs.html, has Lyman 350 gr sabots for sale in several quantities, including reloading information. The slugs are for "RIFLED barrels ONLY" as they are cast sized that way. If you have a smoothbore stick with Hornady SST's.

Commercially loaded slugs cost more to develop and manufacture so of course they cost more than run of the mill shotshells.

They are simple and easy to reload, if you can reload any cartridge, be it shotshell, rifle or pistol or anything else, you can reload a slug cartridge. I use Lee Load-Alls for both 12 and 20 ga, 2 3/4 and 3". The Lees are cheap, simple and effective and I've used them since they first came out...way, WAY back in the day.

Want an eye opener, compare the energy figures with a 45-70 of the same weight and velocity and it might give you a flash.

The latest Lyman shotgun manual has lots of information. Shotgun sites.
Shotgun World - http://www.shotgunworld.com/,
Duck Hunt - http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum.php,
Graybeard - http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/index.php
all have excellent information on shotgun slugs and reloading, you just have to search a little harder to find reloading components, but as slugs become more popular and more information is presented, I think you will find a resurgence in popularity.

Check out "The 12 GA FH" on this and other sites...I think it might just give you a wake up call.

I shot my first deer 40 odd years ago with a 12 ga and Rem punkn balls. Hit the shoulder bone knuckle joint at about 35 yards and completely destroyed the whole shoulder and dropped the deer like a rag doll. It weighed 246 lbs, gutted, skinned and hanging WITHOUT the whole front quarter and ribs on that side.

Just got back into 12 ga slug reloading and I can tell you a 525 gr Lyman sabot from 1700 - 1900 f/s is deadly at both ends of the cannon.

Start with the sites I listed and they will lead to others and your question should be answered very well. :D

'Njoy

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/. These guys also have a ton of slug supplies and info

Commercially loaded slugs cost more to develop and manufacture so of course they cost more than run of the mill shotshells.

They are simple and easy to reload, if you can reload any cartridge, be it shotshell, rifle or pistol or anything else, you can reload a slug cartridge. I use Lee Load-Alls for both 12 and 20 ga, 2 3/4 and 3". The Lees are cheap, simple and effective and I've used them since they first came out...way, WAY back in the day.

Thank you all very much for the information. I wanted to ask about the quoted parts above though. I want to start out by saying that I have not reloaded shotgun shells since I was in my early teens, and that was at a friends house. That was well over 25 years ago. :eek: (wow, I'm getting old!) I do not own, nor have ever owned, my own reloading equipment. Please do not take my questioning of the quotes as anything but extreme interest, and a lot of confusion, as I still do not understand this.

I'm not in total "tune" with what NFG said about commercially loaded slugs and their reason for costing more. Here is why I am confused - I can buy a 15 pack of Winchester X slugs for less than $9. The crimp looks the same as what is used on the Remington Core-Lokt Ultras. The ONLY difference that I can see is that one is loaded with a solid rifled slug, and the other is loaded with a saboted bullet. So... my question arises again - as I do not think that the cost of the saboted slug contained within the housing costs that much more.

Looking at the "260 grain Hollow Point Magnum Bonded Sabot Slug" housed within the sabot and shell casing, it looks a whole lot like the "45 caliber 240 grain Hollow Point XTP Mag" housed in the 50 Caliber High Velocity Sabot that I shoot from my muzzleloader. The sabots are noticably different, with the Remington load having 8 petals vice 4 of the Hornady, and the color being different.

Comparing the two is probably like comparing apples to oranges, as one is coming out of a muzzleloader loaded with black powder, and the other is coming out of a shotgun with smokeless powder, but with 150 grains of Pyrodex Pellets, the manufacturers figures at the muzzle are as follows:

XTP - Velocity 2200, Energy - 2579
Rem - Velocity 1900, Energy - 2085

At 50 yards, the figures are as follows:

XTP - Velocity 1979, Energy - 2087
Rem - Velocity 1750, Energy - 1775

At 100 yards, the figures are as follows:

XTP - Velocity 1773, Energy - 1675
Rem - Velocity 1615, Energy - 1500

The above results are suprising to me, as I would have figured the modern shotgun shell to blow away the muzzleloader round in both Velocity and Energy.

So I ask once again... why are the 5 packs of Sabots so expensive??? Remington developed the "Core-Lokt" bullet a LONG time ago. I'm about 99.9% positive that they didn't spend months in research developing a specific 260 grain bullet for this purpose, but rather just took an existing offering in that line (45 cal???), and adapted it to the 20 gauge sabot load.

The second thing that I wanted to say is to reiterate that I am not a current reloader, so a lot of the noted sites are confusing me a bit more than helping me. I am not looking to reload solid lead slugs - I'm looking to reload a saboted bullet - much like the ones I'm speaking about above.

Is it safe to cut open a shotshell? Probably not, and I won't attempt it, although I am very temped to do so. I am very curious as to what the makeup of the inside of this round looks like.

All the best,
Glenn

As long as you don't go after a loaded shell with a hammer you should be relatively safe. I've cut open many shotshells that didn't come out right to retrieve usable components. Just slit down opposite sides or cut around the shell above the base with a box cutter.

The Winchester slugs you talk about is very old technology using simple and cheap to make forster type slugs that were designed for use in smoothbore shotguns. Think of it as a round ball in a muzzle loader compared to a metal cased cartridge and bullet for a rifle. The newer sabots are designed for a rifled barrels, have more components, i.e., sabot slug, some kind of plastic container that holds the slug and engages the rifling, that needs to separate from the slug after it leaves the barrel, and so on...plus all those components cost more to make these days and more steps in the manufacturing process. Win and Rem "punkin" balls are about as primitive as you can get next to pellet shells...but still very effective.

Don't believe the velocity information given by the different makers...most of it comes from using 30" pressure barrels. I've just finished chrono'ing some Rem Sluggers advertised on the box at 1760 f/s. Two of my shotguns showed 1650 f/s or less for 3 shots. Winchesters punkin balls listed as 1600 f/s did 1550 f/s ave for the same shotguns. At least Winchester was much closer to the "truth".

If you have a smoothbore...keep using the forster type slugs or Brenneke's and forget the sabots...for the most part the sabots are for rifled barrels, and need the spin to stabilize and get the best accuracy. Those sabots are actually wasted in a smoothbore by reason of the sabots need for spin to obtain the higher accuracy. All the different makers have information posted delineating which type of barrel the ammo is most useful for.

And, yes you are comparing apples to guavas with the muzzle loader to shotshell comparison. Shotguns are limited to just under 12 KPSI because of the thin chamber walls, weak bolt lockup and receiver, while the muzzle loaders have a chamber wall thicknes compared to a rifle, a much stronger lockup and receiver. Using a 150 gr Pyrodex load I would expect pressures to be two to four times the pressure developed in a shot shell. Like comparing a lady finger firecracker to an M80 or cherrybomb in the bad old days when those devises were REAL.

I think the use of Core-Lokt is Rem play on words...the use of a well know term to transfer use appeal to another product.

It might be well to look at all the presentations on the different sites as to what is and what isn't a "Saboted" projectile. In some cases there is a "sabot" surrounding the bullet and in others a sleeved shotcup the same as used with pellets, in others there is no "sabot" and the projectile is a two piece unit with slug on top and plastic pressure wad on the bottom. The word "sabot" is used fast and loose when it comes to the shotgun slug world and "expensive" is a relative term and compared to what.

'Njoy

Thanks NFG. I shoot a heavy rifled barrel slug gun - the H&R Ultra Slug Hunter. Of all the ones I've shot, I liked this one the most, and it was the cheapest of all the ones I looked at - which wasn't a priority in my buying, but definitely was a huge bonus.

All the best,
Glenn

I haven't measured the chmber wall thickness on the H&R Ultra Slug gun but I've measured several other H&R barrels including my 45-70 BC. Considering the diameter of a 12 ga shell, the ave diameter of all the barrels I measured at 1.115" and do a bit of cogitating I come up with a wall thickness around 0.1525". Not very much there to handle very high pressures, but enough to handle any slug you can purchase. You just have to try several to get the best accuracy for your barrel.

I've done all my slug testing using a Mossberg barrel which has the heaviest and longest chamber with the thickest walls at 0.221" or 0.222". I posted that data somewhere on this site under 12 GA FH I think. Even though I've come up with some calculations concerning the ability of the different barrels to handle what pressure, I won't publish that data nor will I say any more about the loads I came up with, the powder amounts or the velocities...I done shot off my face already too much in that area. Someone might try my load and have a problem. This reloading business is as safe or as dangerous as YOU make it. :D

I'm trying to decide which brand rifled barrel to purchase next or send in my extra SB2 action and have a Ultra Slug barrel fitted...I want the 38-55 barrel fitted also. :D Maybe for SantaPoppa day. Thats all I need...two more barrels to play with.

'Njoy

I've done all my slug testing using a Mossberg barrel which has the heaviest and longest chamber with the thickest walls at 0.221" or 0.222".

NFG... have you seen the 20 gauge Ultra Slug Hunter barrel by H&R? It's massive! I'd be willing to bet it blows away the wall thickness of the Mossberg you quoted above, but I'd have to measure it to be sure. It's a heavy *** too!

Basically, from what I've been told, H&R takes a 12 gauge barrel blank, but bores it to 20 instead - leaving a LOT of thickness in the barrel. For the 12, I think they use a 10 gauge barrel blank and bore it to the 12 gauge diminsions.

I put my 20 gauge barrel from my H&R USH next to my Browning Auto 5 12 gauge, and the H&R is wider in diameter!

All the best,
Glenn

I would be very interested in the measurements on the 12 and 20 ga H&R barrels if you could get them with a caliper. Barrel dia and length at the chamber, muzzle dia, I.D.'s on each end, and wall thickness for sure. I have requests out for that information but no replys yet.

I haven't seen ANY Ultra slug guns...wish one of the sporting goods shops would get one in so I could play!!!!

I don't know if H&R uses a different action for the 10 ga's but they do say a 10 ga can only be fitted to a 10 ga action. (SB2-MAG vs SB2 for the 12 ga and other barrels.) Just haven't contacted H&R yet for clarification but I'm calling them today.

'Njoy

Yep the 10 ga sb-2 mag is a different action and isn't heat treated the same, but Ed Huebel did find it harder and stronger than sb-1.The 12 ga ultra slug hunter is on the 10 gauge frame and is as heavy a 12 gauge as could be desired.

Wish I had the proper equipment to do the measuring for you, but unfortunately, I do not. I tried to measure with a small tool I bought a while back for measuring wire diameter - but it's not suited for the job. From what I can measure, the wall thickness looks to be a tad under .2 , but again, I do not have the proper tools to measure it accurately.
All the best,
Glenn

Thanx all...I called H&R this morning and "verified" the information I've read. Ultra slug 12 ga uses the 10 ga SB2-MAG frame, but the 20 ga barrel can be fitted to the SB2 rifle action. Customer service will email me the measurements.

And, I called Bi-Mart for information on the Ultra Slug guns...the Deluxe Hunter (laminated stock) $265, standard Hunter (wood stock) $215 and scoped standard Hunter $249. Heading to town for Dr appt tomorrow so will get one ordered. 7-10 day wait. Cheaper than getting a barrel for the Mossberg or Rem 870 and no messing around, swapping around. I'll have shotguns behind every door in the house instead of rifles or baseball bats... :D ROTFL

'Njoy

To answer the original question. Yes, you can load 20ga sabots and in the prosess save yourself some money. I have a 20ga H&R ultra slug hunter that I load for and am very very satisfied with both the gun and the loads. I have been loading shotshells for over 50 years and at present have 7 presses however I do not even use a press when I load my sabots unless I use previously shot hulls. I now use new primed chedite hulls for my slugs so there is no need to reprime and resize. What is required is a powder scale and a roll crimper which you use with a drill. I buy my 300 grain hp/xtp bullets locally as well as the powder and filler wads. The loads cost me about $1.25 each to load. 80 cents of that is the cost of the sabot which I buy from gun servicing in bordentown, NJ. They cost $70 per hundred plus $10 per hundred for the gas seal. When you buy the sabots they also send you the reloading data required. They also sell factory loaded slugs for about $8.99 per box of 5. These slugs are the most accurate slugs that I have ever shot and they do a trick on deer.

BakaBob;

Do you have an address, full name, URL, phone number, or ??? for the "gun servicing" place in Borden Town, NJ. I would like to contact them to see what other slug components they have.

Is the 20 ga sabot you mentioned a one piece slug or do you use a plastic sabot around the 300 gr bullets and what caliber are the 300 gr bullets you use?

Thanks

'Njoy

BakaBob;

Do you have an address, full name, URL, phone number, or ??? for the "gun servicing" place in Borden Town, NJ. I would like to contact them to see what other slug components they have.

Is the 20 ga sabot you mentioned a one piece slug or do you use a plastic sabot around the 300 gr bullets and what caliber are the 300 gr bullets you use?

Thanks

'Njoy
Gun Servicing
101 Gilbert Road
Bordentown, NJ 08505

609-261-7373, it is best to call after 5 pm

The sabot load I am talking about is using hornady HP/XTP 45 caliber bullet in a plastic sabot similar to those used by rem, fed and win.

Gun Servicing
101 Gilbert Road
Bordentown, NJ 08505

609-261-7373, it is best to call after 5 pm

The sabot load I am talking about is using hornady HP/XTP 45 caliber bullet in a plastic sabot similar to those used by rem, fed and win.

Is the sabot load you're talking about number 6726 at the bottom of this page by Hornady?:

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=dab5a82d721c7a27ae02be173e645d63&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=fb73b4b3a3f422cdff2546992d2a2166

That one is a muzzleloader bullet, and it's the one I was thinking of using for this type of project, except I was thinking of the 240 grain version (6727 - about midway down the page).

Thanks for the info! This is a great discussion. I'm learning quite a bit, and it's going in the direction I was hoping it would go!

All the best,
Glenn

Thanks Bakabob. That's a fer piece from my west coast home. Any chance of the sabot brand so I might find a supplier closer to home?

Thanx

'Njoy

Is the sabot load you're talking about number 6726 at the bottom of this page by Hornady?:

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=dab5a82d721c7a27ae02be173e645d63&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=fb73b4b3a3f422cdff2546992d2a2166

That one is a muzzleloader bullet, and it's the one I was thinking of using for this type of project, except I was thinking of the 240 grain version (6727 - about midway down the page).

Thanks for the info! This is a great discussion. I'm learning quite a bit, and it's going in the direction I was hoping it would go!

All the best,
Glenn
The bullet in that page is similar but not the same one. It is listed under pistol bullets and it does not have the word Mag after the discription. Acually you can use different weights and in fact I shoot about as many 250 grain bullets as the 300. They are .452 dia.

Thanks Bakabob. That's a fer piece from my west coast home. Any chance of the sabot brand so I might find a supplier closer to home?

Thanx

'Njoy
Its called CCS sabots. collet cup sabot I believe is the proper name. As far as I know they are the only ones that make and sell them. It may cost a little more for shiping for you but it would be worth it in my opinion. I don't understand why no one else has produced similar sabots but I guess there is just not a big enough market for them.