Ok,

I have scoured the boards once again to find as much info on the 45/70 as I can. I am fascinated by the hard cast bullets and have pretty much settled on the Piledriver Jr's for my first attempt at loading hard cast bullets.

Being new to the big bore arena, I have no idea about what any of you might be talking about concerning fire-lapping/slugging....etc. I am accustomed to buying a rifle, taking a couple of published loads and finding one that shoots well and then using it.

In the Piledriver Jr. 425 grain selections, I have my choice of 458, .459 or .460 diameter bullets. Which one should I choose? Does it really make that big of a difference? Should I be concerned about a big pressure variance in using one diameter to another? .458 to .460?

I may be showing my ignorance here, but this whole world is new to me. I am used to reloading, only at the very basic level, meaning setting and seating the lengths of my cartridges to factory depths, using a nosler or barnes bullet and picking a load out of there manuals and trying it. If it groups well, I am set and don't change it. I don't ever recall having a diameter selection within a certain caliber. .308 is 308.

If my Marlin Guide Gun should get firelapped, does Beartooth provide that service for a fee, or can a regular ol' gun smith do that? Where would I find that service if I didn't want to mess with it myself? If I do that, can I still interchange jacketed bullets with hard cast or do I need to stick with one?

Any advice and experience on any of this would be wonderful.

Thanks,

Autumnpulse

Pulse,

All of your questions are answered on the web site:

www.beartoothbullets.com

There you will find extensive information regarding fire lapping, slugging (measuring) the bore and, and reloading information.

Marshall Stanton, creator of beartooth bullets, published this load for the 425g piledriver jr:

starline brass
53g H322
WLRP
425g bullet

If you change any components you have to start over. Good reloading practice dictates that you double and triple check that information to be sure there are no typos. Then decrease the load at least 10%, load a few and fire them, then inspect the cases, primers, and gun to determine if everything is OK. Just grabbing a load you see in print and filling 'er up is very amateurish, and has been known to cause damage.

I shoot .460 dia bullets in my guide gun on Marshall's recommendation. My gun shoots .459 very accurately also.

I recommend you do some more research on the website, where there is seriously good info, as opposed to mere opinion on the forums, mine included.

Regards,

Grizz

You might want to look at the "Tech Notes" section of the forum. There is a lot of good information there.

Let me help you get started - order 0.460" diameter bullet for your Marlin. If they shoot well you are done. But some lapping is generally a very good thing for a rifle that is going to shoot cast bullets, and I would recommend you get Marshall's technical guide and read through that first.

If you have any handloading skills at all - you won't have the slightest trouble with the lapping process. Marshall sells the supplies you need.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Unless you discover a problem with shooting cast bullets caused by bore imperfections I would advise against firelapping. It reduces the life of your barrel and may not be necessary. You can just about accomplish the same thing by shooting a hundred rounds of jacketed bullets through your rifle first (a good way to get familiar with it), then remove any copper with WIPE-OUT bore cleaner before shooting cast. Generally, the reason there are different bullet diameters with cast bullets is they should be sized 0.001" to 0.003" larger than bore size to ensure complete obduration. Slugging the bore reveals your bore diameter, or as was suggested you can just start out with .460" bullets and only try .459" bullets if you can't get decent accuracy with the larger bullets. I routinely shoot both jacketed and cast bullets, just thoroughly clean the bore between sessions.

Fire lapping is just controlled wear to make things progress a little faster so you get to the point of having fired enough rounds to smooth out the chatter marks from the reamer, even out the depth of rifling, and getting the leade a little more concentric with the bore. Yes, care is called for when handling the lapping compound. You don't want to get it on the bolt face or mired around the firing pin. YMMV, but I have to say my .444 and .22LR rifles, and .45LC revolver are more accurate in my hands since I fire lapped them according to Marshall's instructions in his Technical Guide. In the grand scheme of things, the relatively small amount of barrel wear from fire lapping has increased my enjoyment many times over from 500 rounds for the .444, 1500+ for the .22, and 3500+ for the .45LC.


Factory ammo is somewhat undersized for bore as an additional safety factor and to aid with the more modern jacketed bullet designs. Generally, a larger for bore cast bullet can increase accuracy since it will rattle less while traveling down the barrel. Since the factory reamers wear with age, it's important to slug your barrel so you can learn what its diameter is. Then you can select an appropriate diameter cast bullet for your gun. Slugging helps you feel where the barrel restrictions are. As you go through the lapping process you can reslug to check for improvements to these restrictions.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I have placed my first order with Beartooth and have the Piledriver Jr's with a .460 diameter on their way. I spent a little time talking with Marshall on the phone and he was incredibly helpfull. Regardless of whether I like the bullet or not, I will do business here, as I make it a point to patronize any establishment that offers up such a wonderful resource, free of charge to their customers and is willing to take 10 minutes out of their busy schedule to answer beginner questions from from someone who isn't even a customer yet. ....However, I am sure that I will like the bullet.

I also have an interest in the 525 Piledrivers. Grizz talked about his 32 grns. of H322 for his pet load with the Piledrivers. Is that your Rockbreaker load or do you need to push it hotter to break those big rocks? What velocity are getting with that 525 Piledriver with the 32 grains of H322?

I am still a little ways out from being able to shoot my 1895GS, but already have the Starline Brass, WLRP's, RCBS Dies, and some bullets. So far, I have a box of the Hornady 350 Gr. FP, Northfork 350 Grainers and have the Piledriver Jr's in the mail. A quick trip to Sportsman's Warehouse and I will have some H322 and probably another selection like Re-7 or H4198 to try some different stuff out. I am really looking foward to it!

Thanks again to everyone for the replies.

AutumnPulse

I also have an interest in the 525 Piledrivers. Grizz talked about his 32 grns. of H322 for his pet load with the Piledrivers. Is that your Rockbreaker load or do you need to push it hotter to break those big rocks? What velocity are getting with that 525 Piledriver with the 32 grains of H322?

I hope I didn't type the load as 32 grains. My load is 39g H322 in Starline brass. I apologise of I typoed the load.

That's the rock crusher. It's penetrated a dozen one-gallon water jugs, the video is linked at the end of the piledriver article on Marshall's site. That was fired from a guide gun and I estimate the mv was around 1470fps.

I get APPROXIMATELY 1315fps from a 10" BFR, 1450-70 from my guide gun, 1520 or so from a 26" Marlin Cowboy, and (I think) 1580ish from the 32" H&R single shot. Can't find my notes but this is what I recall.

Please don't use my data. Please use the published data, reduce 10%, and work up your loads NOT TO EXCEED the published velocities. This is the only safe way to reload.

Nick from this forum calculated with reloading software that my load runs 26,321 PSI. If that's true this is a Level ll load and if that pressure is correct that load is safe in any modern firearm. It has been discharged from many different firearms, usually with big grins from the trigger puller.

Again, my apologies to everyone if I mistyped my load info..,

Grizz

"I hope I didn't type the load as 32 grains. My load is 39g H322 in Starline brass. I apologise of I typoed the load." GRIZZ


The question of "What really was the amount of powder" in these post absolutely points up the fact of how easy it is to really get in the sh**...and I'm not pointing the finger at any one person...many of us have posted similar information over and over again. :confused:

It is also the reason I quit posting my loads...it is too easy for a beginner OR expert to mistype, misread or misinterpret a powder amount or brand type and cause a very nasty situation. I also deleted as many of my posts that contained questionable information as I could find or get rid of.

I would recommend that NO ONE post ANY powder amounts for their favorite load and reference a loading manual instead. None of us want to be the direct or indirect cause of a dangerous situation...there are enough built in dangers without adding to the fact.:confused: :(

Happy Holidays

'Njoy

Grizz,

The typo wasn't yours, but mine. In your posts about bustin rocks, and other posts, you have referred to that pet load and it was 39 Gr. of H322. I guess I dropped the last number of the powder name and filed it away as a grain measurement in my brain.

NFG, you bring up good points and I will certainly be more careful to type the right info and make sure my references are correct. Very Respectfully however, how careful can you be? The regulars know what you each are talking about when you post loads and everyone else is a guest, and are going to do what they are going to do. You have all posted many, many times about what proper load generation protocols are and why they should be followed. If I want to get a trapdoor and reload for it, I better know or learn what the protocols are for that rifle before I ever do any loading or even shooting for that matter. Someone's knowledge or lack thereof, should not deter us all from talking about the subjects that we love in technical detail. After all, isn't that what this sight is for?

The risks that you have all referred too, has made me a better reloader (if for no other reason than showing me how much I didn't know) and I have spent numerous hours on this sight and others, reading to fill in the many gaps in my knowledge base. The information, experience and warnings have all served to move me toward greater reloading maturity, and wasn't that the goal all along?

I would have never considered launching a " 525 Gr. Ford Festiva" at 14XX feet per second, until I learned what it does to fairly large rocks. This I gotta see!.. So, I will be trying some Piledriver's down the road to itch that curiosity. Being of an intelligent nature, I will follow protocols and back off at least 10 % or more and work up, but it is very nice to have an idea of where you want to work up to, while concurrently watching how the loads and pressures perform in your own gun.

I for one, appreciate the different loads that have appeared on these threads. I have written some of them down and will be "working up to them" to see how they work in my guide gun. There is are so many options that it took me a long time to decide on where I wanted to start, but the posted info and commentary, helped. I now have my starting point and can't wait to begin down the path that has no end, called "the quest for the perfect load"

Thanks,

AutumnPulse

Thanks for the clarification on that. BTW, my 39g H322 IS the reduced load for working up. The published load is in the piledriver data with the pressure it generates. I just backed off to the starting load and haven't needed anything 'more'. heh.

The other very important thing is to use the same brass, or to make further reductions if you use a smaller capacity case.

The differences in case volume can amount to the equivelent of a couple grains of powder. ( ! ! )

Be safe out there..,

Grizz

Autum,

I just stumbled across your post and thought I would repost a small section from one of my previous post. The following load is the one I settled on for MY BFR. Do a search for my other post. You may find them helpful. Good luck, John

Today my goals were more than realized for the BFR. Using Beartooth 425 grain Pile Driver Juniors on top of 52.5 grains of Hodgdon Benchmark I shot a five shot group at 100 yards that measured 2.4 inches with a velocity of 1618 fps as measured by my Oehler 35. The standard deviation was 5. This was shot from a bench with a two power scope.

Wowsers John, that's some great shooting and what a load. That should take anything on our neck of the planet, possibly anything that a 444 can take. heh. Good report, good one...

Is that a compressed load? What a powerhouse. What's the barrel length?

Grizz

Grizz,

Thank you for the complement. As you can imagine I was quite pleased with the group I mentioned.

The charge is slightly compressed, just enough to keep it from moving around.

My plans to put it to work in AK were interupted last year. Maybe I'll get to this year.

Take care,

John

I'd like to know where the manual with published data for the BTB Piledrivers can be found!
I've had a tough time trying to locate data for BT bullets. As for NFG saying to not publish your powder charge info I disagree, although common sense must dictate our actions.