I finally recovered one while cutting firewood.. I have been watching for one since I started casting for rifle. New at that. Found it during the splitting operation of a dead elm tree that needs to go up the chimney.

Firearm is a Winchester 94(top eject).
30-30 Winchester
Bullet is from a Lee mold C309-170-F.(170 grain flat-point) that I would have launched at between 1400 and 1600fps. when I was playing with this load at this tree!

I am grateful to find this bullet because it shot poorly. I have wondered why?

I see rifle marks from nose to base on this beat-up bullet. Good news on the tail end.
My question is about rifle marks on the nose. A new one is a “slip fit� when inserted nose first into the muzzle. Stops at the driving band.

Your thoughts.

Cheezywan

No idea why it shot poor, but from the sounds it's bumping up to fill the rifleing. May be a tad undersize, or it may be too hot a powder charge for the bullet shape?

I make a habit of lapping out the noses of bore riders so they show at least a trace of engraving the rifling at the muzzle. What alloy was used?

It depends on the rifle marks that you are seeing. If they appear to be extensions of the rifling at the base of the bullet, and the whole bore riding portion has bumped up to fill the grooves, you have a pressure and alloy problem. The bullet is getting too distorted and therefore is unlikely to perform well. The bore riding portion should be lightly marked (in my experience) by the rifling, but the nose should not expand to fill the grooves.
Fast powder used to achieve your velocity, such as Unique?

Agree with al_sway, it sounds like too soft an alloy and/or too sudden a boot in the butt.


Once captured one of the worst shooting .44mag. loads I'd tried (from a carbine)...bullets started life as standard SWC's...the recov ered bullets looked like T/C round noses. They were soft and just "slumped" at the hard acceleration.

I'd tend to toughening up the alloy just a little bit and/or going to a poweder a touch slower.

Thanks for the replies folks. You are thinking like I was while pondering this.

I can't know what powder/charge launched this one? I used two powders for this with wheelweight metal only. Air cooled. Cast hot and frosty all.
IMR-4227 and IMR-4198. I clocked them all! Speed was from 1464 to 1624 fps.
Lee LA only for lube. As cast diameter(0.310).

The only other observation I made was leading near the muzzle(two inches or so). It brushed out easy from the breech end(yes, I clean my 94 that way).

Base of the bullet offers me no clues that I can offer.

Goal was to get my son shooting centerfire(cheap). Range was 55 yards. Seems to "pattern" about 4 inch there. I want better than that(cheap).

Rifle is good. Will do 1 1/4" at 100 yards with jacketed handloads from the bench.

Thanks for replies. Is a project for winter.

Cheezywan

I use the Lee 150 grain FN, with gas check, in my .30-30, using 4198 to achieve about 1800 fps. I also use a mongrel alloy of wheelweights, but my rifle does group much better than what you describe. I haven't recoverd any bullets, but I size them to .309 with Alox/beeswax, and I don't have any leading showing after a couple of hundred rounds.

I just received that exact Lee mould (it's on sale now for $14) but haven't even gotten it warm yet - and my gun range closes for the winter today.

Did you shoot them bare-bottomed (the bullet, not you, silly!) or with gas checks?

I shoot them with the Hornady crimp-on gas checks. I don't have the exact load of 4198 with me, but it is relatively mild. Good practice load, and certainly in the lethal range if I were hunting in the right spot.

Bare butt bullet Rocky. Just for close range work around the farm.

Cheezywan

Ahhh. My pet load for that bullet without a gas check is 7.0 of 700X (easy to remember, huh?). IIRC, it gives me about 1200 fps and great accuracy.

With a GC, I use AA5744 and juice it up a bit, but I don't have my load sheets in front of me for the charge.

1200fps. I don't currently have any 700X. I suppose I could mosy over to the neighbors and ask to borrow a cup of powder.

WW-231 and Blue Dot are the fastest I have. Thanks for the tip. I'll look into that.

Cheezywan

I tried 7.0 grains of about every powder from Bullseye through BlueDot, and 700X was the most accurate in my gun. But yours might dote on 231 or Blue Dot - or Red or Green or Scot 1000 or Nitro 100 or...

But 7.0 seems to be a sweet spot with them all.

I'll give that a try next time I load. I like the economy of the idea.

Cheezywan

Cheezy,

If you're running a 26" barrel, that shouldn't be a lot of pressure. QuickLOAD puts you in the 13-14KPSI range with around 15 grains of IMR 4227 and around 16.5 grains of IMR4198 to get to 1500 fps from a 26" tube. Shouldn't bother even a plain base cast bullet in the least. Even loading to that velocity for a 22" tube only raises the peak pressure about 1 KPSI. If we use the rule of thumb that a peak pressure of around 3 times the yield of the alloy is the minimum pressure needed to achieve base obturation, and 5 times is the maximum pressure a well-dimensioned rifle bore will handle, you wind up in the range range of BHN 6.7 to 11 corresponding to 22" barrel chamber pressures from about 16.0 and 17.5 grains of IMR4227 and IMR4198, respectively (the loads needed for 1500 fps from a 22" tube). With wheel weights at about BHN 9, you should be right where you want to be.

So, questions come up: Did the rifling on the nose portion engrave evenly, or was it predominantly on one side? In the latter case, bullet tilting in the bore may be an issue? I have heard the comment in the past that the bore riding nose designs shoot best when singly loaded and can get tilted in a magazine feed situation. Have you chambered then extracted one of these to see what marks appear on the nose? Did the rifling engraving have, as was asked earlier, the same depth in the nose as in the bearing band engraving? Have you slugged your bore with pure lead to check its dimensions and to feel for constrictions? These matters often don't bother jacketed bullets much, but can wreak havoc with your cast bullets. If you have a constriction, you will need to hand lap or fire lap the bore for best cast bullet performance. If you have a wide bore (.309 or so) you will want to consider sizing wider. The Marlins seem to like cast bullets about 0.002" over groove diameter. Your Winchester may, too.

You may have considered all this already? It may also be this is just a situation that requires more hardness than the normal rules of thumb suggest you need? Nonetheless, I would get some pure lead and slug the bore before I did anything else.

This bullet is kind of beat up to the point that I can't get any meaningful measurements from it. Rifle marks look to be all around the nose and shank(as others suggested,is like alloy was too soft for the acceleration). Bullets were seated well short of the rifling 2.535" COL. Most were single-loaded though I can't say for certain that this one was.
My barrel is about 19". I am moving into a new computer and have not transfered load notes yet.
Slugging the bore is a good idea. I will do that.

Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers Nick. That was very kind of you.

Cheezywan

Chezywan,

I did a quick re-calc with the 19" barrel. Bullet hardness range moved up to about BHN 7.2–12. Your BHN 9 wheel weights are still right in the middle of that rule of thumb range.

If you had deep rifling engraving all around, there really is no sensible conclusion other than the bullet is too soft and needs to move at least to the upper end of the range. Constriction may fool this a little and you are still likely to find accuracy improves from lapping your bore and, especially, from custom sizing for your bore. So, slugging to see what you have remains your best next step.

Still, it looks like you want to consider at least dropping your cast bullets from the mold into water to harden them a bit. I've used the floating sponge technique for that, but find the required aim slows me down a little. I also don't like the potential for a splash to send water airborne and maybe toward my melt pot. I finally went to a deep bucket (5 gal paint bucket) filled pretty full and tied an old rag over top like a drum skin, then used a box cutter to slit the rag with 1/2–3/4" spacing. The rag strips slow the bullets gently on their way into the water and block return splashes. You'll get bullets with BHN's in the upper teens this way. A little firm for best obturation, but if you size them 0.002" over groove diameter, they should still seal the bore well.

People have been hardening cast bullets, then separately heating and softening the noses for expansion for some time. I've not heard of the opposite being done; hardening the nose to survive firing, but annealing the base to improve obturation. Maybe it's time?

Have fun!

Roger that Nick. I’m not likely to be doing any casting for awhile Nick. Winter arrived here Saturday in the form of an ice storm (is why I was cutting/ splitting firewood when I recovered this one bullet).
I might try the “momma’s oven heat treat method” that I have read of here and in Lyman’s good book. Trouble there is convincing my good wife. Casting in a blizzard might be easier?
<O:p</O:p
Rocky and Ribbonstone have a lot of experience at this stuff. Those light charges of fast powder for sub-sonic speeds are attractive to me if they shoot ok. Still enough horsepower to roll a raccoon. I am trying to keep things simple for now.
<O:p</O:p
I tried to post this yesterday. The server change over occurred as I hit the submit button.
<O:p</O:p
Yeah. I’m havin’ fun.
Thanks for the wisdom.
<O:p</O:p
Cheezywan

Chezywan,
People have been hardening cast bullets, then separately heating and softening the noses for expansion for some time. I've not heard of the opposite being done; hardening the nose to survive firing, but annealing the base to improve obturation. Maybe it's time?
Have fun!

I had to re-read all to pick-up that important bit. Yeah, I'm slow.

Big project for this member. Day job is gonna conflict. I want to recover another bullet at a known speed/distance to proceed down this path. "Bore slugging" must happen first so as to make it all worthwhile. It's on the list of stuff to do.

I "prefer" to stop mine in water.

Thanks,

Cheezywan

Just an update on your hard work.I’m kinda back at this project again. I bought a pound of Unique ($16.99 local for a price check). I was looking for some egg sinkers that I know that I have. I remember buying a small bag to slug the bore of an old Mauser I worked with about a year ago. I know I have them but can’t find them so on to plan “B”.
I have a Lee mold #C312-185-1R that I used for the Mauser project. “I’ll cast my own bore slug” me thinks. Small amount of alloy still in the pot. No wind. Temperature is above freezing. So I cast a dozen.
Part of plan “B” was that the nose of the bullet would serve as my bore slug (wanted a nice smooth surface). No such luck. The nose measures 0.300” just above the front driving band. Too small! So I measure some more. The driving bands measure 0.311”+ cast of whatever was in the pot.
That’s as far as I got to date. I’m considering plan “C” now. Shoot the 185 grain 0.311”+ bullets in my 30-30?
Thank you folks for your input. I'm still in "search mode" for the egg sinkers.
Cheezywan

Cheezywan,

Just a quick reminder that most bullet alloy cannot be used successfully for slugging. You need close to pure lead. The various casting alloys and the stuff that Gander Mountain fishing sinkers are made from are too hard and springy and can expand a half to a thousandth or so on exiting a bore. Try pushing an alloy slug through a cleaned and oiled bore. Mark it as it goes in so you know which land was oriented where on the slug? Put it through a second time and you will feel that it takes just as much effort as it did the first time. That is due to the outward springing pressure of the alloy. Pure lead doesn't do that and is easier on the second pass, having been sized to the narrowest part of the barrel on the first pass. That springiness of alloy that makes it hard to push through on both passes through the bore also makes it impossible to identify all but really gross constrictions.

So, you need some of the flat stick-on wheel weights or some other source of pure lead for your slugging bullets. Marshall sells sinkers that are pure enough for slugging. Most swaged bullets are pure enough, also, since you can slug with .22 RF bullets. Backstop metal from an indoor range that only allows .22's would, therefore, be workable.

I found them! They were right near where I left them. In the tray on the cleaning cradle. "Water Gremlin"is the brandname. Worked for 0.312. Should also work for 0.308?
I'm just back from South Dakota. Son's scattergun is getting "first bath". 870 Remington 20 gauge for him.
Good tip about the "springback" issue unclenick. I will work with that. I gotta say again though that this particular 1894 has always shot just fine with jacketed bullets and most any decent load. It cleans fairly easy too. I would guestimate the round count to be in the "low thousands".
I'll use what I've got for now. I figure that even if I can't get a good measurment(due to slug aloy), I can still get a "feel" of the bore. I'll learn a little from that.
Thank you all for your kind(and free) advice.

Cheezywan

I found them! They were right near where I left them. In the tray on the cleaning cradle. "Water Gremlin"is the brandname. Worked for 0.312. Should also work for 0.308?

Yes. If your sinkers are pure lead, you'll just shave off or swage the excess out of the way on their way in. Don't forget to clean and lightly oil the bore before starting the slug.

. . .I figure that even if I can't get a good measurment(due to slug aloy), I can still get a "feel" of the bore. I'll learn a little from that.

Not in my experience. The time I experimented with alloy slugs the springout (built that word from a kit, just for this occassion) was too great to let me feel anything. The alloy just went through with difficulty the whole way. I marked their 12:00 position and ran them all through twice in the same orientation to see if there was a difference from having been squeezed down? There wasn't.

To elaborate on what I mentioned in my last post, Bill Calfee is a Precision Shooting contributor who builds brenchrest rimfire .22's, and he writes that the alloy most standard velocity .22 bullets are swaged from is soft enough for slugging his barrel blanks. A lot of times those will be like 2% or less antimony and not heat treated, like chilled shot with that antimony content is. So, in a pinch, you might try pulling a couple of nice soft .22 slugs, put them together in the bore between two protruding brass or CRS (cold rolled steel rod from the hardware; softer than barrel steel, but round the ends anyway) or even wood dowel rods. With one of the rods braced against a concrete floor or wall, tap the other with a hammer to bump the lead up into a slug that fills your bore diameter. You can push it the rest of the way through while feeling for imperfections. Push it to one end and bump it up in place and push it back the other way. In particular, you want to check around the throat and the sights and the barrel band. You want to be sure the muzzle is not wider than the breech.

A caution: Wear gloves and face protection pulling .22's. Apparently a little priming mix occasionally gets on the sides of the cases, and pulling the bullet can light these up. Nothing big results. You just don't want a flying spark to hit you in the eye. I've never had it happen, but there's always a first time.

Thank you all for your kind(and free) advice.

Cheezywan

". . . My free advice costs nothing, and it's worth the price."
Alan Sherman