i just got a new 30-30 and was thinkinhg about having reamed for an ackly improved cartridge mostly i guess to say ive got an ackly improved and ive heard it helps greatly with brass life and slightly with accuracy.

while loading up some rounds to break it in i was looking at the .444 brass and notices they were the same base diameter or realy close but i can slide the etire 30-30 case minus the rim inside the .444 case.

all the bench rest cartriges are short and stubby so might a .444 necked down to .30 and shortend to say 5-10% more case capacity than the 30-30 AI maybe put out 100-200 fps more than a standard 30-30 and be inherently more accurate?

You have just invented the 307 Winchester! It was chambered in the Winchester 94 Big Bore for several years. Or you may have invented the 308 ME which you can buy from Marlin right now!

Good morning, the search feature works well but requires some getting used to for best results.
Below are some threads on the .307 Winchester and the .30-30Ackley Improved – in no particular order.
There are more active .307 and .30-30AI shooters on this board than any other I have visited.
Before reaming your rifle to .30-30AI thoroughly explore it as a .30-30. In this way you will have a good knowledge of the standard cartridge and its capabilities. You will also have a better idea of the level of Improvement attained by reaming to the Ackley chamber. As you will see when you read the threads not everyone is happy with the Improved chamber. Carefully study both sides of the topic before making your decision.
Marlin and Hornady have changed our options with the introduction of the .308 Marlin Express. You will see this as you look at the .307 Winchester thread. Both cartridges are compared side by side with handloads.
I am also including a link to the 26” barrel .30-30 thread. You will see that Grandfather knew what he was doing when he chose the 26” .30-30 in rifle configuration.
The 26” barrel thread
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=24356
.307 Winchester threads
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=26200&highlight=.307+winchester
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=14764&highlight=.307+winchester
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=24190&highlight=slim+iorg
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=19942&highlight=magazine+tube
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=37467&highlight=.307+winchester
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=5417&highlight=.307+winchester
.30-30Ackley Improved links
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=12144&highlight=30-30ai
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=9924&highlight=30-30ai
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=6794&highlight=30-30ai
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=9669&highlight=30-30ai
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=5813&highlight=30-30ai
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11363&highlight=30-30ai
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11920&highlight=firing
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=15167&highlight=30-30ai
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=12629&highlight=30-30ai

thanks for all that info thats a real help BUT i was thinking more like 1.85 brass length make the neck an even .400 with a 30 degree shoulder and ai type taper to help with bolt thrust . speer lists the 150 grain at 2238 fps in the 30-30 and 2603 fps in .307 i was hoping to get more like 2450 with with long brass life and pressures in the 44-48,000 cup area. and mainly i just wanna be different

it would be realy close to what a .300 savage would be if there was a 300 savage AI

from what i can see the .307 is identical to a .308 with the exeption of the rim is .063 on the .307 and its ..054 on the .308 so perhaps what i should do would be to shorten the .307 instead. all the short action mags ppc and bench rest cartridges are short fat and most have a 30 degree shoulder angle im trying to get closer to that design and still gain just a little speed and alot of case life with less bolt thrust.

maybe il call it the .306 since the .307 is a modified 308 and this would be a modified 307

maybe go down to 1.80 length since the body is wider although i dont know how well it would feed in a 336 action

It never hurts to look. If we shorten the .444 Marlin case to 1.850” overall and blow the case out so we have a .003” taper from the base to the point of the shoulder and use a 30 degree shoulder with a .308” long neck we have a diameter at the shoulder of .4676” (we start out at an optimum .4706” at the base). This gives us a total water capacity of 50.6 grains.
A Speer 150-grain bullet is .904” long. Seated .308” deep we have a water capacity of 44.0 grains.
Using a 2.446” COAL with .308” of bullet seated in the case and using a 20” barrel – leaving 18.458” effective barrel length.
43.0 grains of either IMR 4320 or Alliant Reloder 15 will give us about 89% load density and an estimated velocity of 2,570 fps at an estimated 47,800 CUP for 2,200 fpme.
Powley won’t get much closer. If someone with Quick Load wants to compare my figures it might make a good cross check.
My 20” .307 Winchester will exceed 2,700 fps using Alliant Reloder 15. The problem with .444 Marlin based wildcats is the COAL restriction of 2.600” or less. This has been increased by some with prudent gunsmithing but the gain in useable case capacity is modest.
For single shot rifles forum member David White is the guy to talk with as he has built quite a few wildcats based on the .307 Winchester and .444 Marlin cases. It is fun to look at these ideas and play with the “what ifs.”
The standard .308 Marlin Express or an Improved version may be your best bet.

thanks thats sounds pretty good im gonna have to get that computer program so i can play around a little bit. whats it called?

if i do decide to do this wildcat il probably start shortening the case till i hit that 2450 2500 fps at a max of 48,000 cup of course that will most likely change the powder which makes the best results.

i wonder how hard it is to increase the length of time at or near max pressure is sustained without exceeding it.

Nick or Snow can tell you about Quick Load, also a Google search. I use the Powley slip stick and Greg Mushials RCBS Load program.
You may find the .308 Marlin Express does exactly what you want in the Marlin 336 action.
In my 22” barrel 308MX the 150-grain Speer bullets gets 2,500 fps from 41.5 grains of Hodgdon Varget or 39.8 grains of Hodgdon 4895.
These are relatively mild loads for the .308 Marlin Express.

Highwayman,

what barrel length are you going to be using?

I rechambered the below pictured N.E.F. single shot from 30-30 to 30-30 Ackley Improved and cut the barrel back to 16 1/4" for a short easy carry woods rifle and even with it's short barrel, it will easily match the velocities that you mention...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/333774.jpg



30-30 Ackley Improved....
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/watermarkcchch.jpg


There is a 300 Savage Ackley Improved out there, as I have been chambering for it for years. The cartridge on the left is a factory 300 Savage and the one on the right is an Ackley Improved version....
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/300Savage9_3-vi.jpg


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marlin 336 22 inch barrel

hmn i never thought of using a new england sigle shot that may be a good cheap way of working up this round start with the case shortend to make 30-30 capacity and work it up from there to find the sweet spot/powder

Assassin, have you played with any bullet over the 190's outta a .30-30AI ??

My wife's T/C Contender w/ a 21" bbl loves the 190's and I wonder how the 200's and 210's would shoot.

The .30-30AI is P.O.'s very best(IMO). I have had tons of fun playing with this round over the years.

The gentlemen that wants a little more velocity outta their .30-30AI's can always switch to .375Win. brass also. Stronger case, so have heard(only) another 100-150 fps is possible with the 150gr bullets. -----pruhdlr

pruhdlr,

I use 375 Winchester brass in place of the factory 30-30 brass and also use it in place of the 225 Winchester brass because of the larger and thicker rim...

I shoot SPEER's 180 gr. round nose and Remington's 220 gr. round nose out of various 30-30 Ackley Improved chambered rifles and they shoot very well....

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is the 375 brass thicker, can it handle higher pressures? as i understand it the 336 action is stronger than the 30-30 brass and can hadle higher pressures with the ai rounds from less bolt thrust. please corect me if im wrong

I have seen pic's of sectioned .375Win brass and it is thicker at the rim(as stated above) but the web thickness is greater also.

Can't speak to the pressures that it will handle,but have a couple of friends that start with the loading data(AI) using .30-30 brass then keep sneeking the load up till they see the normal pressure signs. (this done VERY carefully)

NOTE : This is done in single shot weapons with ample freebore.

They seat the bullets out far so this may be impossible with the levers or bolt guns with normal .30-30 length mags. -----pruhdlr

When using the .375 Winchester case in the .30-30AI and the .25-35AI I did not find I could load to any significantly higher pressure without seeing the simlar visual indications of high pressure over the standard .30-30 cases. What i did gain using the .375 Winchester cases was longer case life before the primer pockets loosened. I am not talking about leaking primer pockets but when the primers became noticably easier to seat in the pockets. It is worth while to use the .375 Winchester case but it is more work and .30-30 brass is cheap. I do not utilise used .30-30 brass except for once fired for making the .30-30AI, I use new brass.
For the .25-35 or the Improved version where there is quite a bit of work involved in making the cases to start with the .375 Winchester will help them to last a little longer and is well worth the added effort in forming.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=5813&highlight=ackley

how many times can you reload max charge 30-30 rounds? im using a 336 marlin. ive heard they require trimming often how often is often? and how many times can you reload the 30-30 ai? how often do you have to trim?

You will be able to use your .30-30 cases loaded with maximum loads more than ten times before you must discard them. Depending on several different circumstances you will probably trim your cases twice before you discard your standard .30-30 cases. I shoot both the Winchester Model 94 (both top and Angle Eject) and the Marlin 336 and I do not find any of them more or less prone to stretching a case. In fact you may find your reloading dies stretch your case more when full length re-sizing than your rifle does when firing.
The .30-30AI loaded to my velocity goals does not stretch my cases in a noticeable manner. This is to say I generally discard the cases for worn out primer pockets prior to the case stretching enough to require trimming. Remember the .30-30AI case shrinks a little when it is fire formed. I often square the case mouths using the Forster trimmer after fire forming but using the Lee Factory crimp die this is not really required.
I expect and get 10 or more full power loadings from each case. I use only new brass to form the Improved case. If your are going to load the .30-30AI to high pressure there is no point in scrimping by using range pick-up brass or cases which may have been reloaded several times as standard .30-30’s. I have thread here on Beartooth that includes a picture of .30-30 cases broken at the pressure ring after four firings. These were cases fire formed from range pick-up brass of unknown origin – although it did appear to be once fired. When I hunt with the .30-30AI I take along a cleaning rod as a broken case will end the day for you.
If you choose to run your pressures on up for even higher performance you will find the Ackley Improved case will stretch also. When you are stretching the Improved cases you are working at a pressure level far in excess of where I believe we should be. You will see in one of the threads I was getting some higher velocities from the 20” .30-30AI and not experiencing any visual signs of distress from the cartridge case. It was when I began shooting these loads side by side with the 20” barrel .307 Winchester that the little light bulb lit above my head and the voice accompanying the light said: “hey dummy, you are getting higher velocity from your .30-30AI than you are from your .307 Winchester using maximum published load data.”
I listened and have reduced my .30-30AI loads back to my original velocity goals. My .30-30AI ammunition must be interchangeable between the three rifles and it must work at temperatures above 100 degrees and to 10 degrees. It does and I feel very confident in the load data that I share. This is all just to remind myself there is no free lunch where velocity and pressure are concerned.

Remmeber I am shooting only lever-action rifles. the single shots and bolt actions play by different rules.

what were your original velocity goals? i also am shooting levers and will the 336 reliably feed with neck only sizing?

im definately going to work on this wildcat round but im going to start with a nef rifle i think and maybe it will be more like a beefed up 7.62x39 than a .307-308 but starting with .307 brass as they fit the bolt face. i figure to cut it down till it holds the same capacity as a 30-30 standard case and have a .340 neck, a 30 degree shoulder and ai type taper, kinda like making my own short action standard instead of magnum

3,000 fps for the 110-grain bullets, 2,700 fps for the 125-130- grain bullets, 2,500 fps for the 150-grain bullets and 2,300 fps for the 170-grain bullets. You can go 2,350 fps using Alliant Reloder 15 or Hodgdon Varget. You can get this performance using a variety of powders with ammunition that is interchangeable between rifles and that will not give you a surprise on a hot day.

thanks for all the help

Any of the cartridges in this power clas intrest me.
The standard .30-30 case with a bullet seated .308” holds approximately 38.7 grains of water.
If we take a .307 Winchester case and shorten it to 1.6070” overall and blow the case out to about .003” taper or .4679” in diameter at the point of the shoulder and a 30 degree shoulder angle using your .340” neck we will make the point of the shoulder at 1.951” and the base of the neck at 1.3030” (I like that dimension) with a bullet seated to .308” deep we have a case capacity of 38.7 grains of water.
Using a 22” barrel and a COAL of 2.126” using the Speer 150 grain bullet seated .385” inside the case we will load up with 44.0 grains of IMR 4320 or Alliant Reloder 15 and get an estimated 2,648 fps and an estimated 48,000 CUP. This will give you an estimated 2,478 fpme.
While the cartridge is not my cup of tea it looks good on the RCBS Load cartridge designer and will probably be quite flexible bullet wise due to the generous neck.
Forum member Assassin may well have an existing wildcat cartridge near to what you are looking for. A closer look at the .300 Savage Improved is probably called for here.

I had a nice error in my math but fixed it. I kept telling myself this is not right and then I figured it out. This looks better

I have built Ruger #1's in 30-30 Ackley Improved and using 375 Winchester brass and shooting Noslers 125 gr. Ballistic Tip, it was real easy to exceed 3,000 fps. and with NO pressure signs...

The 375 Winchester case can safely handle pressures as high as 53,000 psi BUT, you cannot load the 30-30 Ackley Improved to 53,000 in any gun other than the Ruger #1 and then with a chamber that has ample free bore...

When using the 375 Winchester case to form other cases, such as the 7X30 Waters, 30-30 Winchester, 30-30 Ackley Improved or even the 225 Winchester, even though the 375 case is probably the "strongest" of all of them, the original cartridges chamber pressure should NOT be exceeded or it's maximum loads exceeded, especially because of the slightly decreased case capacity because of the thicker brass....

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I have a 30X444 and in a short barreled pistol (16) I am 150fps faster than the 308 Win. Basically it is a rimmed 257 Roberts AI. I use a shortened 30-06AI sizing die after fire forming the case.

The 307 Win case is a much tougher case than either the .375 Win or the 30-30. I feel that the 307 case is the strongest domestic case here in the U.S. with the exception of the various short mag cases. The 30-30Ai is a supurb cartridge in my experience for the lighter bullet weights. I went to the 30X444 because I was dis-satisfied with the enegy transfer of a 165grain bullet when my wife shot her goat a couple years ago. This cartridge will drive the 150's and 165's several hundred fps faster than the 30-30AI will do.

Just another experience

The 308X444 Improved is by far my most popular .30 caliber rechambering option of all, especially in the break open single shots like the T/C Contender, Encore and H&R...

Like 338CE pointed out, this round is loaded with a set of slightly shortened 30-06 Ackley Improved dies...

In rifle length barrels, the 308X444 is only about 100 fps. behind the regular 30-06 and accuracy has always been outstanding....

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