One thing I don't see mentioned a lot when people talk about the strength of a Marlin action is recoil. I have read where people criticize the Marlin action, saying it could handle a lot more pressure if only the barrel shank was thicker. I have to wonder if the same people have actually shot a 444, or a 450, or a .45-70 with maximum loads. I am a relative newbie with my Guide Gun, I have only shot about 300 rounds, varying from Winchester Factory (mild) to Hodgdon Lever Gun starting loads (35000PSI?) and I have to say that I don't think I would care to shoot a 7 pound rifle loaded beyond what a 450 is capable of, at least I wouldn't shoot it much. I think one of the really appealing things about the big Marlins is the balance of power to handiness. There are more powerful rifles out there, but most are significantly heavier. What do you all think? You could, of course always rebarrel a BLR to .458 WM
Andy
P.S. According to the recoil calculator, a 450 Marlin/ .45-70 max 400gr. load generates 45 foot pounds of recoil energy in a 7 pound rifle. Doesn't sound like much, till you consider a Model 94 .30-30 runs about 12 foot pounds, and an eight pound 180 gr .30-06 about 24.

I think you've about hit the nail on the head Andy. Same goes for lots of other guns. Got a friend with one of the Scandium five shot Smith 357 mag snubbies. I've seen grown men drop that gun on the first shot.

When I was looking for a lighter big bore revolver than my Redhawk I liked the looks of the Taurus Tracker and shot a friends Titainum five shot 24 ounce 41 mag. It was ported, but with full power loads was more than a handful. I finally bought the Stainless 34 ounce model and even ported it's a handful.

This ultra-light fad for high recoiling guns follows the more is better and lighter is better thing and doesn't make much sense in the real world. You keep talking like you did Andy and folks will accuse you of making sense. That will keep you from ever becoming a gun writer.

The Golden Mean: moderation in all things. I agree with both of you. My .444 with Hornady Lt. Mag. ammo or my equivalent reloads is well balanced for power, recoil, weight, handling, and effective range. With a Weaver K3 on top it will handle any reasonable shot presented to me for Wyoming antelope, deer, elk, and anything else I have any business shooting. I have no interest in, or need to, pump it up to the absolute max. If a target is too far, I hunt closer or pass. And there isn't anything wandering around Wyoming that is too big for the .444.

A long, long time ago when I was a young man, I rejoiced in more recoil, was proud of more power and bragged about the most boom. But now, I truly wonder about all the abuse my rifles and I took. Today I enjoy the more moderate side of shooting. My 44 magnums see more 44 special loads than max loads and my 444 lives on cast bullets at moderate speeds. My ears and joints have paid their dues.

I think guys go through stages.
Some start out craving more energy, higher velocity, etc. just for bragging rights and a feeling of having big numbers. I was there once.
Now I'm at the stage where I'm looking for that balance, to find that sweet spot of utility. That's why I don't load my 45-70 Guide Gun to 40K+psi to hit some magic velocity that "flattens out my tragectory". And I don't lard it with a scope. After all, I have different rifles for that.

The Guide Gun is light enough that you can really get bounced around - especially bad for those who like to shoot from a bench. But if you keep the loads reasonable and you do most of your shooting "hunting" style (personally I don't drag a bench with me Elk hunting), you'll find the Guide Gun a pretty nifty little carbine that can make a big hole in things.

My friend shot his elk with his 7mm Rem Mag - a very good Elk cartridge. The Elk ran 100yds and collapsed. I shot my Elk with my 45-70 Guide Gun and it dropped like a sack of spuds - no running, twitching, anything. Now I know shot placement had a lot to do with it, but results like that make me feel good about packing around the little levergun. And when I recovered the slug (405gr JSP launched at 1800fps), which was expanded out nearly an inch after having plowed through a lot of bone, it sure looked massive compared to the 160gr slug from the 7mm. The numbers for the 7mm are very impressive. The numbers for the 45-70 are pretty pathetic.

Yeah I hear that Andy. My .444 kicks me around as bad as my .338 feels like - but the numbers tell me it really shouldn't be worse than my .30-06. But it is.

The Marlins are great hunting rifles, but they really have about the worst possible stock design for handling recoil, especially from the bench.

Guess it keeps them from being worn out!!!!

there ain't no different perspective on recoil for my .444--it most definitely is F E L T when I launch loads above 1800 fps!! that's primary reason why I'm exploring the bigger bullet, slower velocity loads for my skinny boney shoulder. I just need enough power for one at a time bang flops. I don't need to kill 2-3 dirt piles in addition to the bang flop with each shot.

I always tell people that if you shoot much at all, you'll soon reload for 44 mag and the like. Given that, the final load will nearly always approximate factory 44 spl and 45 LC. They are more fun and easier on the the shooter. Plus, I don't know of anyone who became an accomplished marksman by starting out with master blaster loads.

Yellowhouse....who later in life favors good ole standards like the 257 Roberts, 300 Sav, and such. They get the job done as always and don't kick the snot out of you.

Exactly Yellowhouse. I like the magnums, but even with all the handgun hunting I've done I found that 44 mag loads in the 1200 to 1300 fps range killed as well and were much easier to shoot accurately.

I'm carrying and shooting a 4 inch 41 mag now and loads in the 800 fps range are pleasent and fun to shoot, not to mention accurate.

Yup, I keep my Marlin 1895 around 1200 to 1300 fps with 405 grain Remington's. Any more than that velocity I don't enjoy the gun and put it away after 5 or so shots. Those rifles can surely kick!

You are quite right, and it is a point that is not often mentioned when some of the shooters talk about loading up the .45-70. I quickly gave up on the higher velocity 400 grain loads, and now I shoot a 405 grain cast at 1550-1600 fps. Anything more becomes a challenge for me to practice with. I fired a box at 1800 fps and decided that it was more than I really wanted to shoot.

Now, I don't want people to mis-understand me. I don't think a max-load .45-70, 450 or 444 is un-shootable, just all the gun I would want.
Andy

When I broke the wrist on my 1895 shooting heavy loads I quit using them. They are too hard on the gun IMO.

i shoot a max load of h-3222 over a 300 grain xtp in my marlin 444ss but not for speed its because as the pressure went up so did the accuracy so my gun likes max loads of 322 so thats what i shoot i put a limbsaver recoil pad on it and now i can shoot 10 rounds without a trip to the hospital i have a 30-30 that likes a medium load of h-322 so thats what it shoots and honestly its more uncomfortable for me shooting the smaller bore rifles like 30-06 or 300 win mag to sharp of a recoil for me the big bores dont hurt me as bad but thats me

Al_Sway:

I was wondering if the ammo you refered to was the HSM 400g at 1800. It is pretty stout (loaded a bit hotter than CORBON), but it is pretty mild compared to most of the hot loads out there (I think "Life or Death" is the idea behind most other hot loads - you wouldn't mind a broken shoulder if it kills the griz that snuck up on ya). Last time I was at the bench, I didn't see any grizzes. :D

[ quote=al_sway;315765]You are quite right, and it is a point that is not often mentioned when some of the shooters talk about loading up the .45-70. I quickly gave up on the higher velocity 400 grain loads, and now I shoot a 405 grain cast at 1550-1600 fps. Anything more becomes a challenge for me to practice with. I fired a box at 1800 fps and decided that it was more than I really wanted to shoot.[/quote]

I have found with the heavy Marlin loads, the guns have a good amount of kick, but I would not expect less of it. I have worked up loads in my Marlin 45-70 and where I found the most accuracy was at the top of the Marlin load data scale with a 405 gr. hard cast bullet. But one thing am certain of, when I shoot something with it, it will be dead. :cool:

When I go to the range, I wear a past shooting pad, it keeps the shoulder for getting bruised and I can enjoy just shooting the Marlin 45-70. Because I practice with the load I use for hunting. :D

Me too, Redhawk1. About a year ago I started wearing a PAST strap-on, shoulder pad every time I go to the range. I bought the thinnest one so the length of pull would be least affected. It does the job of cutting recoil. I use it for all my rifles at the range from .257 Roberts and 30-30 on up to the 35 Whelen and .444.

This one piece of gear has really changed the quality of my range experiences. Now I am not concentrating on dealing with recoil, I am concentrating on sight picture and trigger control.

Of course, out hunting I never feel the recoil and hardly even hear the muzzle blast. At the range I use all the protection I can get for eyes, ears, and shoulder.:)