I'm twitching again! I have no need whatsoever for one but I keep running into used Marlin 336's in decent shape for $200-300 and keep thinking it would be fun to have one rechambered for the 30-30 Ackley Improved. Please if someone out there has experience with that caliber either talk me into it or out of it!:D

Maybe I could beat the .444's in the Postal league with one??:D

Go ahead Mike, your not going to be in it much, of course you could just get one of the new Marlins that shoot the 308 look-a-like. I'll bet that 24 inch tube is going to be durned accurate.

All the years I've worked on guns the only wildcat I ever built was a bunch of 284 Savage 99's necked to 284/375's for some fellas in Alaska. I've often looked at the little Rem 700 mountain rifle in 280 Remington and thought about an Ackley improved for it. Naw it shoots good now.

Would you be afraid to do it one with the Micro groove barrel or no difference??

I have three rifles reamed for the .30-30 Ackley Improved. One of them is a Marlin 336 with Micro groove barrel. In general terms the micro groove barrel gets a little higher velocity with the same loads when compared to the hammer forged barrels of the Winchester Model 94. I have posted some side by side comparisons of the difference in velocity between the two types of rifling but they are not important. Either rifle will make a fine Improved rifle. Lately I have been thinking about David White’s reworking of the NEF Handi rifles, he makes up some very interesting .30-30AI rifles based on the Handi rifle. David posts on this Forum as “Assassin” and has several pictures of his rifles posted.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

30-30AI is a marked improvement in velocity over the standard 30-30.

In our 15" handguns were are getting an additional 150fps velocity increase per bullet weight. 2600+fps with the 125gr. bullet from a pistol barrel. Holds a few grains more powder and because of the improved case design one pretty much elliminates bolt thrust.

Nothing but good here.

338

That is excellent performance from the short barrel. I restrict my every day loads for the lever guns to 2,700 fps for the 125- or 130-grain bullets. About any powder between Hodgdon 4895 or H335 and Alliant Reloder 15 achieves these velocities without difficulty in the 20” barrels.
For the 125- to 130-grain bullets what is your preferred powder in the short barrels?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Using the tougher .375 Win brass I would start with 30 grains of H4198. Go up in 1/2gr increments looking at primers and in particular the chrony.
A charge of 3031 with the 150gr at 2400! as a different options.

338

I thought you would be using one of the 4198’s for the 125-grain bullets in the short barrels. In the longer barrels I restrict 4198 to the 100- and 110-grain bullets.
I don’t care for the way IMR 3031 performs in the 20” barrels on hot days and I stopped using it. For the longer barrels there are better powders.
Have you used Hodgdon 322 or Benchmark? I had good accuracy with these two in the longer barrels with the light bullets.
It’s interesting to meet someone shooting the .30-30AI in a short barrel. I have run the numbers across the Powley computer but the math does not handle the short barrels very well due to the expansion ratio. I have often thought of reaming a 16” Trapper to the Improved case but have not run across one at the right price.

The 30-30 Ackley is one of the very few cartridges that actually is "improved" by the conversion. So it's a good choice.

Yes, you really have read me say something nice about Ackley Improved. Will wonders never cease?

Now don’t go soft on me…
I like the .30-30AI and .25-35AI.
My Dad has a 6.5 X 55AI which shows no real “Improvement” when compared side by side to the original cartridge and this includes case life.

Great! Now you guys have convinced me but I 'm wondering since my gunsmith said a portion of the expense was for him to rent the reamers and headspace guages that maybe I should look around for another bargain Model 336 and get two done at the same time?:D

30-30 Ackley Improved....

Yes, ALL rifles and handguns are chambered for the 30-30 Ackley Improved....

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/watermarkcchch.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/333105-555x355.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/ContenderBarrelStub3.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/contendercarbine.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/watermark88.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/333774.jpg


A

I would like to do this conversion also to a glenfield mod 30 I have. Slim, didn't you do the rechambering on your's?
Karl

Assassin, them are some fine lookin' AI's there. Love that short bbl with the brake. Is that considered a SBR or does the brake make it 16" ??

That, with a 18" SS bbl,no brake,and a 13" LOP stock would be right up my alley. Especially with a Leupold 2X7X33, shotgun scope, with the thick crosshairs, sittin' on top.

What is the case capacity difference 'tween the .30-30 and the AI. I have heard somewhere that it is the most of any of PO's chamberings. Somewhere around 30%. That seems to be too much to me,but......... ?

Again,great lookin weapons. -----pruhdlr

I'll go contrary here. I did the 30-30 AI rechamber a few years ago in my Marlin 336 and it was a disaster.

Cartridges wouldn't chamber properly, and accuracy was miserable. Never did get the velocities touted by others. I consider it a big waste of time and had the rifle rebored to 356 Win...now that's a cartidge that delivers.

In defense of the AI, the smith that did my rechamber created excess headspace that may have been the source of my accuracy headaches.

But if you're looking for 308 Marlin or 307 Win perfomance from a 30-30, you'll likely be disappointed.

Uh huh, as they say, "stuff" happens.

Two things must be true for ANY "Ackley" version to be a success: the job must be done right, and the parent case must be a good candidate for the job.

Done correctly, the gun must be able to safely fire the unaltered parent case in the altered chamber. Getting there varies with the parent case design, primarily rimmed versus rimless, and I won't get too far into it except to say there are right and wrong ways to cut the new chamber.

The case must be a good candidate. By far, the best cases for "improvement" are tapered cases with sloping shoulders and (sometimes) long necks. Examples are the 22 Hornet, 25-35, 250 Savage, 30-30, 30-40, 303 Brit, 300 H&H and a few others. Note that there are no "modern" cartridges listed. Modern rounds with little case taper, 30* shoulders and short necks are domed to disappoint because they simply can't be "blown out" much to begin with. Case capacity hardly changes at all. The ones listed, however, can show remarkable additions to case capacity.

Added case capacity allows extra powder. Some of the added powder has to be burned to overcome the added case volume, just to get back to the parent case bullet velocity. There has to be enough additional volume beyond that to accept additional powder to boost velocity.

Unless you go beyond the pressure specifications for the original round, you'll get about 1/4 the percentage of case volume change. (A 12% increase in case volume will net you about 3% added velocity, AT THE SAME PRESSURE.) Any higher velocities are due to operating at higher pressures.

(Which in turn brings up the point that if you are willing to go to higher than specified pressures in the modified case, why not just do that in the parent case? You'd get the same added velocity burning LESS powder than you would in the "improved" case!)

The short barrel with the brake is 16 1/4" and is "legal" as a rifle...

Useful case capacity with the 30-30 Ackley Improved is about 5 grains over the regular factory 30-30 Winchester round. Yes, the Ackley Improved version "does" hold more powder than that but, you can only burn just so much powder....

DAVID

“I'll go contrary here. I did the 30-30 AI rechamber a few years ago in my Marlin 336 and it was a disaster.”

Whenever I begin to “wax ecstatic” over the .30-30AI I try to remember yours and Taylor’s experience with the cartridge. I try to keep in mind that not everyone has had a pleasant experience with the .30-30AI.
I believe some of the reason for shooter dissatisfaction with the .30-30AI is the lack of writing on the cartridge. It has only been in the last few years that a simple Dogpile search would bring up a wealth of factual information on the cartridge.
I try to tell anyone new to the .30-30AI that a good chamfer on the case mouth is an important aide to seating bullets. During bullet seating the case will sometimes “swell” just below the point of the shoulder without collapsing at the neck/shoulder junction and this will cause difficulty chambering cartridges that display no visual signs of dimensional distress. A good way to “overcome this in the early stages of handloading this cartridge is to bell the case mouth as if you were shooting cast bullets. This aids in initial bullet seating. My inability to chamber seemingly correct ammunition caused me quite a bit of confusion in my early re-loading of the .30-30AI. I believe it was something Terry Murbach wrote on this board that caused the light bulb to light up for me, but I have no idea where the post would be now.
I have been interested in .30-30AI for a long time. My reason for finally looking at the cartridge was because I read so much about the cartridge that either could not be true or was already reported on differently by P.O. Ackley, Homer Powley, Robert Hutton and H.V. Stent. When the .307 was being wildcatted in the late 1960’s it became obvious this was the direction to go. It certainly took Winchester awhile to get there.

“But if you're looking for 308 Marlin or 307 Win performance from a 30-30, you'll likely be disappointed.”

This is a pretty good statement. When used with equal barrel lengths there is very little difference between the .30-30AI and the .308 Marlin Express because the .308ME is held to a reduced pressure level and I am certain that with my top loads I am running the .30-30AI cartridge at 50,000 CUP – and I have no way of proving it.

“Unless you go beyond the pressure specifications for the original round, you'll get about 1/4 the percentage of case volume change. (A 12% increase in case volume will net you about 3% added velocity, AT THE SAME PRESSURE.) Any higher velocities are due to operating at higher pressures.”

This it is “IT” in a nutshell. P.O. Ackley wrote several times about pressure and the wildcatter. I have posted my favorite gun writer quote (an Ackley quote on pressure) on at least two threads having to do with Improved cartridges so I won’t repeat it. I will say there is no pressure tested data for the majority of wildcat cartridges and the handloader is: “on his own.”
I am getting off topic here but I’ll wager if we were “industry insiders” we could have a very interesting discussion with the folks at Hornady on the .30-30AI and pressure. Before the .308 Marlin Express hit the street you know Hornady looked very closely at the .30-30AI and the .307 Winchester. For me these thoughts just reinforce my notion that Winchester had it right, first, they just didn’t know what they had.

Marlin Shooter,
I lost my mind and didn’t answer your question. Yes I have reamed four .30-30AI chambers, three Winchesters and a Marlin. With an extension this is not terribly difficult. I have been re-thinking Leverite’s headspace issue as I never had a good understanding of his problem back then. This is just not a very difficult project for the home hobbyist. The problems arise when the rifle will not feed. I have read of at least three rifles that simply would not feed the Improved cartridge without alterations to the lifter. I didn’t encounter these problems. I would like to have seen a Marlin 336 lifter that would not handle the Improved cartridge coated with “Prussian Blue” so I could see how the cartridge fit or didn’t fit the lifter. The Winchester Model 94 is a controlled feed rifle and mine will feed 150- and 170-grain bullets while upside down or lying on either side.
This is where the gunsmith earns the price of the rechamber work. When your rifle returns from Mr. Noonneman or any other reputable gunsmith it will accept the Improved cartridge through the loading gate and cycle the rounds through the action smoothly. You know the chamber will be smooth and the cartridges will extract without stickiness when loaded to high pressure. You also know the gunsmith has looked at your locking bolt and sliding bolt fit which is important. There are quite a few small items to be looked at to ensure a trouble free conversion. The going piece of a little over $100.00 it’s not a great deal to send a rifle to the professional for re-chambering.
Here is a link to my thread for the basics.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=8472&highlight=hand+reaming

Mike-

Due to Slim's bad influence, my dad and I did two model 94's almost a year ago as a "home project" - Couldn't have been simpler, and I think we got lucky in that they required no modification to feed the rounds easily. Lee is still stocking the dies, so that part hasn't been bad either.
For this first year, we've just shot 110 grainers through them, but we are starting to work with 170 grainers now. As an interesting aside, I've got a 1964 Ackley manual, with various reloading information. His 30-30 improved data does not include any loads for the 170 grain bullet? Do you suppose he considered the improvement in that bullet weight to be minimal? Or just a case of what had been tried so far?

(All - We're not using the manual for the reloading data!! Since the standard 30-30 loads are a couple grains over current published data, the powder differences between then and now have been noted!!)

:)I have a 30-30 AI on a H & R 158 single shot.
Was chambered by Ross Collings and is very, very accurate.
There is a bit of attrition with cases whilst fireforming but once formed they are ok.
Chrono testing reveals a good velocity increase for a modest increase in powder charge but accuracy is improved over the standard previous chambering. I use Lee dies which are available in 30/30 Ackley.
Cheers pete


I'm twitching again! I have no need whatsoever for one but I keep running into used Marlin 336's in decent shape for $200-300 and keep thinking it would be fun to have one rechambered for the 30-30 Ackley Improved. Please if someone out there has experience with that caliber either talk me into it or out of it!:D

Maybe I could beat the .444's in the Postal league with one??:D

You've talked me into one. I am going to have to try the .30-30 AI now.