Here's another potential civil trial question. In a break during a range class recently, the owner had what he thought was a terrific idea. He would sell us at his cost a binder to contain documentation on all our training there including permit class, endorsements for certification on any additional carry guns (not required in Tennessee) and any other course completions. We would then have a nice record of activity for our defense lawyer if needed. Everyone thought this was a good idea except me.

When we discussed it later, one guy stated that proficiency is a big plus with attorneys and judges (holds a law degree but is also a part time employee or consultant with the range owner). Excuse me but does anyone remember "jury nullification" ? It's a jury I would be worried about, fearing the type of jury I would draw in this town. I'm afraid of appearing like a Rambo wannabe and feel like I just need to prove ability to hit what I was aiming at and nothing else, stopping the threat. Any additional skill level need not be mentioned and might be a negative.

I would just want to appear to be an average guy like them who wanted to stay alive for his family instead of being a victim. I keep a low profile with the handgun thing. My last child at home (15) is forbidden from even telling anyone I own handguns.

Feedback please.
Mike

Sounds like common sense to me Mike. A couple of years ago out here in Idaho I wouldn't even have considered carrying a gun for protection, but now it goes with me, just part of getting dressed anymore. Sometimes I wonder what the world is coming to.

I can see your point Mike, but I respectfully disagree. If a good prosecutor is doing his job, He is going to do the leg work of finding out how much i spend at the indoor pistol range, how much training I have had, etc. And I think I might look like a Rambo type, when they search my home and find many many thousands of rounds and enough reloading components to produce that many more.

Skill? Practice at the range? You guys are WAY off base.

If you are involved in a shooting, what will make or break it is whether deadly force was justified. That's it.

No more. No less. If you aren't familiar with the deadly force statutes in your state - you are in for big trouble.

I see your point too Tom, BUT remember we"re talking about a civil trial here, not criminal. Does an attorney have the legal right to search and inventory your belongings in a civil matter if you have not been accused of any crime? Volating one's civil rights would make you a victim of a federal prosecutor, but a wrongful death civil suit or damage suit would not. In the second case he's not a prosecutor, he's just the plaintiff's attorney.

Mike

As pointed out...in the CRIMINAL trial, it's pretty cut and dried. The shooting was either justified or it wasn't. In a potential follow-up CIVIL trial however...ANYTHING goes. The plaintiffs attorney may try to convince the "jury of your peers" that since you have a DOCUMENTED RECORD of firearms profeciency...you should not have had to kill the poor socially deprived victim( notice how your attacker just became the victim....). After all...EVERYONE KNOWS...( if you've watched enough TV...) that it's possible to shoot an attacker in the arm, or leg and stop their attack. So Mike...you find yourself trying to explain to the jury why,.with all your firearms expertise and experience...why did you CHOOSE to murder the victim...??
Gets ugly quick huh...???
The only good thing about this scene, is that depsite the best efforts of the P.O.S. that attacked you...YOU are alive to try to defend your actions.

I would rather see some shooters, hunters and CCW holders on a criminal or civil jury to provide balance, perspective and justice. Take care...
Oberndorf

Some of you guys are making way more out of this than reality dictates.
If you are justified in the use of deadly force that’s the end of it criminally.
As far as a civil suit brought against you by the estate of the P.O.S. you killed yes it could happen however a good many states now provide provision in law that protect you from said suits if you’re action was deemed justified.
You must also take into account the financial ability of the estate of the P.O.S. you killed.
Odds are they are in no way able to finance a civil suit against you.
Many scumbag attorneys will convince these grieving family members they have a suit and get them to put all they have into it knowing that regardless of the outcome the lawyers going to get paid.
Being killed while committing an act of violence against another person will not provide a decision favorable to a case in civil or criminal court.
Any lawyer can bring a suit against you if the wanted to and yes at first you would be in a bit of financial jeopardy. Say around 10 to 15 grand in attorney fees if you are perused to the extreme.
This isn’t an episode of CSI. Your mental judgment would already be deemed sound and you actions justified by the prosecutors. There would be not justification for a civil attorney to have to obtain a search warrant to see your gun collection or your range time.
These fees’s can and should be recouped when you win your case. Yes I said when.
It all goes back to the bottom line. Your either justified or not.

No prosecutor will allow a CCW holder on the jury (either criminal or civil). What he/she wants is a bunch of dunderheads that are easily persuaded or led to a conclusion.

Remember who got acquitted because his BLOOD-soaked gloves had shrunk? Remember who WON a million bucks because she spilled coffee on herself? THAT's the kind of jury YOU are gonna get.

Golden Rule: Carry factory ammo, preferably what your own local cops carry.

Golden Words: "Officer, I was afraid for my life, and I only wanted to stop his attack. I'll cooperate fully, as soon as I have legal counsel." And then shut up.

Does an attorney have the legal right to search and inventory your belongings in a civil matter if you have not been accused of any crime? Volating one's civil rights would make you a victim of a federal prosecutor, but a wrongful death civil suit or damage suit would not. In the second case he's not a prosecutor, he's just the plaintiff's attorney.

Mike

Search warrants have to be issued by a judge or magistrate and served by law enforcement, I don't think they pass those out to attorneys. The shoot to wound stuff doesn't matter, if you are within your right to shoot, you are within your right to kill. Sounds a bit blood thirsty but that's the law. It all boils down to what is reasonable. What would the average reasonable person do and how would the average reasonable person view what happened? If I shoot to defend myself, my spouse, my parent, my child, my employer, my employee, I am covered under the self defense act. Provided I acted against a threat of severe harm or death, it should never get past a review by the DA and I am protected against civil liability.

Absolute best defense is not need one. Avoid being a hero, walk away, run away, drive away, do whatever you can before you touch that gun. If you have no choice, shoot, aim for center of mass and shoot. If the shooting is justifiable and falls within the narrow band of who and what you can protect, then you are probably ok. Some states have Castle Doctrines that better protect you if the shooting is against someone entering your home. Some states have Stand Your Ground laws which do not require you to try to run but you will have to pick the lesser of the two evils for yourself.

As mentioned, read your states laws and make your own best decisions. I wish it was different but it gets to be less fun everyday. Peoples views and the laws have changed. When I was much younger, a simple A & B was a $20 fine and they even tended to agree he might have had it coming. Now it's $750 to bond out and they don't care if he had it coming, they treat you like criminal and you better hope it stays on the misdemeanor side. He swung first or had a big mouth, don't matter much because they like arresting folks and it generates revenue. Here is some logic to ponder, if they get very nasty because you smacked an idiot "who had it coming" how are they going to treat you if you shoot someone? I know it's a different scenario but I don't want to find out.

Be smart, be cool and arm yourself with knowledge as well as a gun, jail aint fun. Wanna know what jail is like...spend the night in the men's restroom at your local gas station, that would be the upgrade suite

As pointed out...in the CRIMINAL trial, it's pretty cut and dried. The shooting was either justified or it wasn't. In a potential follow-up CIVIL trial however...ANYTHING goes. The plaintiffs attorney may try to convince the "jury of your peers" that since you have a DOCUMENTED RECORD of firearms profeciency...you should not have had to kill the poor socially deprived victim( notice how your attacker just became the victim....). After all...EVERYONE KNOWS...( if you've watched enough TV...) that it's possible to shoot an attacker in the arm, or leg and stop their attack. So Mike...you find yourself trying to explain to the jury why,.with all your firearms expertise and experience...why did you CHOOSE to murder the victim...??
Gets ugly quick huh...???
The only good thing about this scene, is that depsite the best efforts of the P.O.S. that attacked you...YOU are alive to try to defend your actions.

So, according to what you are saying, every Concealed Carry Holder in Kansas is screwed since they are required to pass a training course that includes shooting proficiency before they can send in their application for their ccl.:confused:

Guys,

civil rules of procedure differ from Criminal Rules of Procedure. there won't be any subpoenas unless you fail to answer the discovery sent to you by the other side in civil lawsuit. In civil suits, both sides get to ask far ranging questions way before th trail about the knowledge of the other side. You could be acquitted of the criminal mess and win the civil but still have to pay big attorney fees and expert witness unless you're successful in defending the suit with a counter claim.

I didn't choose to kill anyone. The scumbag CHOSE to stand there where I was about to shoot ;)

Sounds flip, but anybody who presses forward the attack, looking down the barrel of a gun, pretty well has decided he/she/it wants to die.

Whether or not someone will try to sue you in civil court, will mostly depend on your net worth, and whether an attorney thinks they can get a paycheck taking the case on a percentage of the results.

We shooters tend to focus on the very unlikely, and ignore the most obvious parts, it seems.

Proficiency? Geez, all they have to do is look up how many hunting licenses I've purchased over the years, and ask me on the stand how many deer tags I've filled out. Don't know if I'm a firearms 'expert' or not... but to the non hunter/shooter, it won't take much to convince them either way.

Has anyone heard the phrase "committed suicide by Cop". We might be unlucky enough to run into one of those. With witnesses we should have nothing to worry about.