I bought some expensive 219 Zipper brass hoping I could fireform it to 21 Zipper Imp but the first 2.00 case split the neck. Appeared to be annealed at the neck but do I need to try more annealing or buy a 219 Zipper?

I've made the brass from 30 30 and 25 35 before. Is this my only route?

Assassin knows more about this than I do but I form standard .219 Zipper cases from .30-30 using Redding </ST1:pform dies. I have never formed the Improved case but it appears to me that simply using the .219 Zipper No. 1 die and the Improved sizing die would do it.
I know that David uses a different method to form the Improved Zipper and the .225 <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:place>Winchester</ST1:p</st1:City> from .375 <st1:City><ST1:pWinchester</ST1:p</st1:City> cases.<O:p</O:p

Did you split the neck, or the shoulder? A neck split on fireforming would be quite unusual, whereas a split on the shoulder where the brass is being blown out could happen. If this brass is splitting at the shoulder, then I would try to anneal a bit further down, to improve the ductility of the brass during the fire-forming procedure.
I have a .25-303 Improved, similiar in many ways to the .219 Zipper improved (tapered case being blown out straight), and occasionally I would lose a case to a split at the shoulder. Usually with range pickup brass of unknown history.

Did you split the neck, or the shoulder? A neck split on fireforming would be quite unusual, whereas a split on the shoulder where the brass is being blown out could happen. If this brass is splitting at the shoulder, then I would try to anneal a bit further down, to improve the ductility of the brass during the fire-forming procedure.
I have a .25-303 Improved, similiar in many ways to the .219 Zipper improved (tapered case being blown out straight), and occasionally I would lose a case to a split at the shoulder. Usually with range pickup brass of unknown history.
Actually it was in the shoulder of what would have been the Improved case--probably neck material in the 219 Zipper. I was using 8 grains of Bullseye, wad of tissue, Cream of Wheat and a wax plug. Shoulder wasn't completely formed--still rounded but the split likely had something to do with it.

I load for a 6mm 30-30 AI and even tho its not exactly the same many of the same traits exist as with your .219zip imp. It is a radical change from the basic 30-30 brass and I can offer a couple of suggestions. I made my own neck die and bump dies and bullet seating die from salvaged .243 Win. dies and modifications. Because this is a Contender format it is all that is required.

1. if you choose to use 30-30 brass neck down in steps - I go from 30-30 to 7-30 W, then a shortened .260 Rem and then finally my modified .243 neck die. you will have to add a step at this point

2. you will most definitely have to anneal to get cases to fire form correctly without neck splits.

3. fire forming will result in cases shorter than their original length due to the brass taking on the sharper shoulder and filling in the spaces from the less tapered chamber

4. If you are planning on using .219 Zip brass I would start out annealing it right from the get go and this almost always gives better results in fireforming.

the 6mm 30-30 AI
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/156016mm.JPG

Thanks for your help. I went through my stash of dies and found the #1 and #2 219 zipper forming dies and a trim die. I now have 25-35 and 30-30 brass worked this way plus a few of the 219 zipper brass--all have now been annealed. May wish I hadn't trimmed them first--seems the final brass was a bit short the last time I did this. Also in the past I had to thin the necks to get them to fit. Does 8-10 grains of Bullseye with Cream of Wheat and a wax plug sound like a good way to go for fireforming? Think I used bullets in the past.

I haven't ever used the cereal method for case forming. My fire form loads are accurate enough that they make decent prairie dog rounds when loaded as pictured.

If I recall I lost .013" in length from fire forming I would expect you will too.

Looks like I may have to buy a 219 zipper. Tried three rounds--one from 30-30 Winchester brass, one from 25-35 Winchester brass and one of the new 219 zipper rounds. Used 25 grains of 3031 and a 55 grain Remington bullet. The 30-30 and 25-35 brass formed perfectly, the 219 zipper brass blew out the shoulder. It might still work with more annealing but it has to stretch more than the other two and 30-30 brass is so easy to come by.

That is one of the reasons I went with the 6mm 30-30 AI. I wanted the hottest 6mm I could get for a Contender, cheap, easy to get brass and an experience in loading and working with a wildcat. The 6mm will move a 58 gr. Vmax at nearly the same speed a 22-250 will move a 55 gr. Vmax. It is a true death ray out on the prairie.

If I go to the local rifle range just before deer season I can get boatloads of once fired brass for the price of watching "once a year hunters" bang off a box at a time.

Good luck and if you get a chance post a pic of a fire formed .219 Zip Imp.

Here are five cases from Left to right. 1. A previously fire formed case after 2nd firing with split neck, 2. Split shoulder trying to fire form directly from new 219 Zipper case, 3. New 219 Zipper case, 4. 219 Zipper Improved case before fire forming from 30-30, 5. 219 Zipper Improved case after fire forming from 30-30 loaded with 53 grain Barnes TSK.


http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii37/gdaddybill/219ZipperImprovedLR.jpg

I'm not sure if I did it right, but the link works now. Click on the edit button to see what I did. The top link is yours.

Bye
Jack

I edited again to get rid of some of the extra stuff. Be sure to copy the URL in Photobucket called the "Direct Link", and place that one between the image tags. If you pick a URL that already has image tags, don't duplicate them. Just one set will operate.

You want it to look like this:

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6660/phototagssi6.jpg

Nice picture and does illustrate your point nicely.
Based on my experience with fireforming and resizing or necking down cases:
1. Nice example of a case that was necked down, and might have been stored a while loaded. The brass may not have been annealed, resulting in this type of split.
2.

Nice picture and does illustrate your point nicely.
Based on my experience with fireforming and resizing or necking down cases:
1. Nice example of a case that was necked down, and might have been stored a while loaded. The brass may not have been annealed, resulting in this type of split.
2. Classic split while fireforming out to an improved case form. Brass is not ductile enough to do this, and would

Nice picture and does illustrate your point nicely.
Based on my experience with fireforming and resizing or necking down cases:
1. Nice example of a case that was necked down, and might have been stored a while loaded. The brass may not have been annealed, resulting in this type of split.
2. Classic split while fireforming out to an improved case form. Brass is not ductile enough to do this, and should be annealed before fireforming. This will vary from lot to lot, or manufucter of brass. I have had some that fireformed nicely without any annealing.
4. The partially fireformed case illustrates the relatively low pressure of the load fired. Nothing wrong with it, as the next full load should fully expand the case. I always use bullets and my full loads when fireforming, as they provide good target practice, or for hunting groundhogs.

I always trim after fireforming, as the case length will change. After fireforming I trim to bring all cases to an equal length.

Stick your 30-30 cases in an oven on broil as high as you can in a pan of water heat until you see them turn red tip them over go at least half way. New brass works the best for the annealing. Use a very light load that will not fully form the case on the first firing. Try like 3gns of WW231 and a wax plug. This is just to get a partially sized shoulder. Then usually a moderate load will work well for the rest of it.

Some claim the slower burn the better as a gradual case blow out is better than a quick slam when forming cases that drastic. If you have something like H870 or H5010 comes to mind. Sounds odd don't it? I've never personally used that idea but when I was in the bench rest game I had heard it a few time. Me I'll stick with the two step method of partial case blow out then moderate load that worked for me.

Thanks for everyone's help. I hope to get to the range and see if I can fire form some of this new brass from 30-30 and 25-35. The older stuff was formed in the 90's so I'll shoot some of it too and see if it can still be reloaded. Can't remember why I had to turn the necks on the 90's brass but this new stuff seems to fit fine.