i am thinking of getting a 1895GS. Wanted to know what stock helps to reduce recoil more. A pistol or straight stock. Both felt good to the shoulder.

I don't think it really matters as far as recoil. get which ever one feels best to you. I personnally like straight stocks for lever action rifles.

Neither style of stock will have any effect on felt recoil. Which you choose will depend on which feels better to you.

thanks for the input before I lay the money down. I'm going with the 1895GS. Better get one before the prices start climbing on steel. Galleryofguns.com prices jumped by $30 bucks this month (january, 2008).

Better get you hands on one quick Marlins (and everything else) are going up fast. I have never seen price increases like the ones that have been going on over the last couple of years. I am getting so I don't buy new guns anymore because of that.

Jay

If you want to tame the recoil, install a limb saver butt pad or put a mercury recoil reducer in the stock, it will add weight, but it will also reduce the felt recoil.
As far as the stock neither will give you any difference in felt recoil, but in my opinion the straight stock looks better.

I own several of both styles. IMO (and that of many others) the pistol grip helps handle recoil better because you can pull the gun back into your shoulder with that pistol grip. I also think the pistol gripped model's lever is easier to operate quickily because your wrist is in a much more natural position. That said, I prefer the looks of the straight stock. I shot both styles quite a bit, before I came to these conclusions.

Don't shoot crazy loads and recoil won't be an issue. I broke the wrist on my old 1895 before it dawned on me that a .45-70 isn't a .458 Winchester nor does it need to be hotrodded.

Swampman, I also own and shoot both styles and find no difference at all, it my be your perception but the recoil factor comes from bullet weight and speed of bullet. The same load fired in the same weight gun with different stocks are going to give you the same felt recoil. The only way you will change the felt recoil it to change one of the variables, such as load, speed of bullet, bullet weight or weight of guns.
You cannot control recoil, if you try your accuracy will be off, and some people call that flinching.

Perception is what it's all about. I also feel that the light bullets have a much more painful recoil pulse and I don't use them. Many folks feel the pistol grip helps control recoil. I'm one of them.

Swampman you have got to be joking, everyone know as you go up in bullet weight, recoil increases. It is not perception it is reality.
As far as controlling recoil in another perception not reality. You cannot control recoil, it is going to happen, no matter what you do. Trying to control recoil only leads to poor accuracy. I have been shooting for over 35 years and I was always tough, recoil is going to happen, no matter what you do. "For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction." That is part of Newton's three laws of motion.
Perception is exactly that, what you perceive, but that does not make it fact or reality. You can't argue with Newton's law. :cool:

I'm also more accurate when I don't use my trigger hand to pull the gun into my shoulder. It's possible that's why I like the straight stocks. I'm not tempted to stiffen up that arm....

I have a Savage 99c in cal. 358 win. with a pistol grip and it handles a recoil wery good.
I tried my friends lever, a Marlin in cal. 444 marlin with a straight grip, and it had a nasty
recoil.
We both used 280gr. bullits and the 358 travels faster than the 444.
It should mean that the 358 gives more energy to the recoil than the 444 but it feels
the other way around.
I think this has to do with how the rifle stock is formed and the weight of the rifles.
The Savage weighs a little more than the Marlin and it is shaped a little different.

onirx-Norway, you gave the factor difference, the Savage 99c 358 is heavier than the Marlin 444. That would be one factor as to why you have more felt recoil in the Marlin 444. But you have to compare apples to apples, you are comparing apple to oranges.
Shape as nothing to do with it, weight does.

Like most of us, I prefer the look of a straight stock on a levergun. Over the years, however, I have found that I am steadier with a pistolgrip, & shoot better. The pistolgrip seems to offer a bit more control. & positions your wrist naturally. Buy the one that feels the best, & points like your favorite shotgun.

"everyone know as you go up in bullet weight, recoil increases."

I don't find that to be the case at all. With light bullets you get a very sharp jab. With heavy bullets you just get a push like a blackpowder rifle. With velocity being equal, I'll take a heavy bullet any day over a light one. I don't really notice recoil myself I just let the gun have it's way. The pistol grip does provide better control and hence less felt recoil. Also the pistol gripped rifles are heavier which may also help.

You cannot control recoil, no matter how hard you try, you just cannot control it. You can manipulate it, but the results usually lead to poor accuracy.
I don't know why people keep saying they control recoil, you CAN"T.

Swampman, I give up, look up Newton's law. That all I have to say on this subject.

It's ok, I know lots of people that will agree with you. My comments are based on 45 years of shooting, and reloading rifles of almost every caliber. What happens on paper ain't always what happens at the bench. I'll believe my face and shoulder over a book.

Have you heard, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. This is a perfect example why I hate giving people advice that is fact, not perception. :rolleyes::confused:


cali-newbie, sometimes you just need to go out and see for yourself. Getting facts from Internet experts can get you more confused. ;)

Thanks swampman and redhawk1 for the two perspectives on recoil. But I think I'll just keep this simple for me. "If it feels good, do it" :)

Hi guys, I am a newbie to the forum from old KY. I have shot many 45-70 rounds out of a 1895 and 1895 Cowboy, and I can tell you for certain that the 300 grain bullets in factory loaded Remington ammo kicks a right smart harder than the 405 grain bullets. It may be that the 300's are hunting rounds and pumped up a bit more, but for sure have a stiffer punch to my shoulder. One gun is pistol grip, and the Cowboy of course is straight. I like the 45-70 very well, and would not hesitate to shoot anything that walks with it loaded accordingly.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. If you have both a 300 and 405 gr. bullet going the same speed you will see what I am talking about. The 405 would kick much more than a 300 gr going the same speed. All things have to be equal.
I have a gamo air rifle that shoots a 17 gr. pellet at 1600 fps with virtually no recoil at all, if you look at the velocity of the 45-70 with a 405 gr bullet going 1330 fps you will notice a big difference in felt recoil.

But we are getting so for off track here, take the same bullets and shot them in the same rifles with a different stock, that is the only why you will see how there will be no difference in felt recoil as long as every thing is equal..

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R4570L*R4 570G

This argument is going around in circles. The Remington 405 grain load is equivalent to Lyman #48's starting Trapdoor load, which uses 33.0 grain of 4198 for 13,800 CUP. The Remington 300 grain load is equivalent to Lyman #48's maximum Marlin load, which uses 40.0 grain of 4198 for 26,800 CUP. Beartooth's recoil calculator gives 18 ft.lb. recoil for the 300 grain load and 15 ft.lb. recoil for the 405 grain load in an 8 lb. rifle.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm

The stock does count. A friend and his father-in-law had post-64 Winchester Model 70 rifles in .300 Winchester Magnum. The father-in-law's rifle had the factory stock. My friend's rifle had a custom stock made by old Al Peterson of Riverhurst, Sask. I shot them one after the other and the custom stocked rifle's felt recoil was noticeably less.

Bye
Jack

I wasn't arguing at all. I simply said the factory 300 grain bullets I had shot had substantially more recoil than the factory 405 weights that I have been shooting. I also said the 300's were loaded heavier.

I never relly noticed much difference in the stright or pistol grip stocks.

Even at the same velocity the 300 grain bullets seem to hurt your face and shoulder more than the 405 grainers. That's why I quit using the 300 grainers. I call it "recoil pulse" for lack of a better term.

I've found the same thing in the .30-06 when comparing the 150s and the 220s.

This argument is going around in circles. The Remington 405 grain load is equivalent to Lyman #48's starting Trapdoor load, which uses 33.0 grain of 4198 for 13,800 CUP. The Remington 300 grain load is equivalent to Lyman #48's maximum Marlin load, which uses 40.0 grain of 4198 for 26,800 CUP. Beartooth's recoil calculator gives 18 ft.lb. recoil for the 300 grain load and 15 ft.lb. recoil for the 405 grain load in an 8 lb. rifle.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm

The stock does count. A friend and his father-in-law had post-64 Winchester Model 70 rifles in .300 Winchester Magnum. The father-in-law's rifle had the factory stock. My friend's rifle had a custom stock made by old Al Peterson of Riverhurst, Sask. I shot them one after the other and the custom stocked rifle's felt recoil was noticeably less.

Bye
Jack

Jack I am done here, you are so right about this thread going in circles. Can't argue with the experts.

Swampman, believe what you want. But I would love to take you to a range and I will load up some rounds in my 45-70. I will load some 300 gr bullets going 1800 fps and some 405 gr, bullets going 1800 fps and then have you tell me the 300 gr. bullets have more recoil, you will be surprised. But in the mean time keep living in your fantasy land. And the same applies to your 30-06.

Thanks Redhawk1
I suspected that the weight was responsible for the differens but many has told me
that so little differens in weight (a little more than 1 pound) should not make so big a
differens in recoil.
Glad to hear I was correct.

onirx-Norway, no problem.

"I will load some 300 gr bullets going 1800 fps and some 405 gr, bullets going 1800 fps"

I've already done the same thing on my own. The 300 grain bullets had more recoil. I'm not sure why. I've been shooting the .45-70 since around 1978 in pistols and many types of rifles. I still think the lighter bullets kick more. I've found the same thing in the .44 Magnum as well. The 180s have a much sharper recoil than the 240s.

my .02 I find straight stocks fit and feel better with heavy hitters. My 450 marlin and my 44mag 1894C both with straight stocks. the Limbsaver buttpad on the 450 was a worthwile investment.

Just to continue beating the deceased equine:
sorry for the long winded def.
I think you both are right to some degree. pure Recoil (Newton's law in effect a object in motion... for every action...) is a function of weight of the powder charge, the weight of the bullet, the muzzle velocity of said bullet and how fast the bullet accelerates in the bbl, and the weight of the firearm to oppose that rearward "Pulse". ( also Newton's law --about a object at rest tends to stay at rest...)
However one thing most people miss is that this all occurs over TIME. albit all happen in a very short amout of time but still the time factors in, as some happen faster than others. which is why we Precieve things differently on our shoulder.
So Felt recoil is different. a "hard" push that shoves you back over a foot say with a 700 gr 50 BMG round with a muzzle break in a heavy bolt action is nicer on the shoulder than the Felt recoil than say my light weight 270 rifle firing a 150 gr that slams your shoulder with a faster impulse. the muzzle break pulls the rifle forward some and the weight of the rifle all act to slow the impulse so it still set me back on the chair when I fired it. However, my shoulder was still intact and not bruised. However my 270 moutain rifle has less calculated recoil, but it hurts. it is sharp and painfull. the 270 recoils faster than the 50 cal. the 50 has a harder recoil but it occurs over a longer span of time. the 270 is lighter recoil but occurs in a shorter span thus not allowing my shoulder/body to displace so all the force is applied to the meat/bone of my shoulder compressing the muscle= more brusing. check out the slow motion videos of the 50 bmg sniper rifle on www.splodtv.com (http://www.splodtv.com) you will see what I'm talking about.


Also if you put a nice soft butt pad that absorbs some of the impulse it feels better on your shoulder but the recoil is still there (Newton's law). the soft butt pad slows down the recoil impulse!

Just a word to those who don't evidently know, putting a recoil reducer in the stock of a rifle and then adding a scope on top, is a road for disaster as far as the rifle scope is concerned. The tests were done back in the 70's and the results were printed in several gun rags at the time....Just a word or two of advice!

Cozy, I don't think the 70's scope and today's scopes are even in the same league. Plus I take everything written in a gun rag with a grain of salt.

I have a few guns with mercury recoil reducers in them. I have shot my 416 Rigby with it a ton of time and there is no ill effect to the Leupold scope what so ever.

I don't know how you can compare the technology of the 70's with the technology of today. They did not have mercury recoil reducers in the 70's, it was lead weight, I totally different concept all together. And scopes have come a long, long was from the 70's.

It's ok, I know lots of people that will agree with you. My comments are based on 45 years of shooting, and reloading rifles of almost every caliber. What happens on paper ain't always what happens at the bench. I'll believe my face and shoulder over a book. it may sound illogical but i agree with you to at least some extent. ive used the same powder charge of h-335 using the hornady 350 grain rn and the speer 400 grain fp in my cowboy in 45-70 and i can attest that the 350 grain hornady is a bit more nasty to me anyway than the 400 grain speer. btw, i have a straight stock.

Here we go again. Another person fails to understand Newton's law. :rolleyes:
There is no way a 350 gr. bullet with the exact powder charge is going to have more felt recoil in the same gun with the same charge as a 400 gr. bullet. You two may want to blow smoke up each others back side, but those of us that know better are sitting back laughing at you... :D

i could care less what you believe or think. and i dont give a da-n about newtons law or yours, im just stating my own experience, period.Here we go again. Another person fails to understand Newton's law. :rolleyes:
There is no way a 350 gr. bullet with the exact powder charge is going to have more felt recoil in the same gun with the same charge as a 400 gr. bullet. You two may want to blow smoke up each others back side, but those of us that know better are sitting back laughing at you... :D

I'm just basing my observations on 45 years of shooting. Newton can kiss my rebel backside.

there is also the possibility that the marlins straight case desighn is alowing the projectile to reach its maximum velocity faster than the savage adding to your Felt recoil. my 444 hits me twice as hard as my 300 ultra mag did i use a limbsavers pad on my 444 it helps alot.

gray rice, believe whatever you want. I am just stating facts, not perception. No need to get your panties in a bunch.

Swampman, I already have you figured out. I know when you have your mind made up, you stick to your guns, even when your wrong....lol

Sometimes the powder charge also factors in here. With heavier bullets it all burns before it leaves the barrel. With lighter bullets it may not, and so it becomes projectile weight.

Bullet dwell time in barrel also effects recoil.

You're right once my mind is made up, I almost never change it. I'm cranky that way.

I've been watching this thread with some bemusement. Some here are talking about Newton's law, (which btw is always right) , and some are talking about FELT recoil.
Two different animals entirely.
X powder charge, along with y bullet weight in Z weight rifle will always result in "B" recoil.
Now comes the Alchemy; Felt Recoil.
If a stock fits, a shooter will FEEL less recoil than if he has one that doesn't fit.
While I am not sure if there is a difference in pistol grip and straight, if a particular gun does not fit, it will kick the snot out of you.
A friend had a Browning A-bolt in 338 Win mag. Nice rifle, but it kicked so badly he was about to give up the 338 entirely. Then he shot one in a Ruger with the "boat paddle" synthetic stock. He sold the Browning and bought the "boat paddle". Within a few ounces of the same weight, same ammo, same shooter. One kicked, one didn't. Why? BECAUSE ONE FIT AND THE OTHER DID NOT!
Actual recoil does not count for a hill of beans in the field, what the shooter percieves is all that counts.

I have to agree with snowtiger. With FELT recoil, what you feel in the field is what actually matters. I mean, heck if some little leprechaun comes out of the woods and kicks me in the stones every time I fire a 357...I'd probably prefer the 454.:)

BTW, I am a staunch believer in Physics, but Newton's Law is not always correct...some things just can't be explained by it...relative things for example like FELT recoil.

Back in th 50's, Astronomy textbooks taught that there was a Planet Vulcan between the Sun and Mercury...they based this hog-wild theory on a little too much faith in old Newton. Not to get me wrong Redhawk1 (btw, Redhawks rule), Newtonian Physics explains just about everything, but it too is based on experience.:)

Take care and happy shooting ya'll.

My first experience shooting was over 60 years ago with a pistol grip stocked double barrel shotgun & 22 rifle .That set in motion my lifelong preferences so all of my centerfire & rimfire rifles & shotguns have pistol grip stocks , I'd never buy a straight stocked weapon.

The mathematical formula for the mass of a bullet is:

M=W/7000g

where: W=bullet weight in grains
and g=32.174 ft/second (squared) which is acceleration due to gravity.

The kinetic energy (recoil) of a bullet can then be found from the formula:

KE= m(VxV)/2

where m=mass of bullet
and V=velocity

THERE IS NO ARGUEMENT!! It's Physics (math), and unlike humans, infallible. 2+2=4

Gary you said; " ive used *the same powder charge* of h-335 using the hornady 350 grain rn and the speer 400 grain fp in my cowboy in 45-70 and i can attest that the 350 grain hornady is a bit more nasty" and you were correct, but your V was different.
Don't cuss Newton, he was one smart guy.

Swampman, if Newton were to kiss your a**; twice with the same velocity(not powder charge); you would find your recoil greater as the mass of his lips increases.

Need Medicine... "Newton's Law is not always correct"------ Bull****, that"s not Newton's theory; it's a LAW of nature ie. always correct.

As, far as felt recoil, my Marlin336 in 35rem. kicks quite well, on paper, but on deer and pigs; I never feel it.

Stock preference is just that; preference; however, you should use your fore stock grip to pull the rifle into your shoulder, not the pistol grip.

What a way to start my first post. Hello all!! sincerely, mad scientist

My .35 rem before a curved lever, after a straight lever. No difference in felt recoil to me.

The mathematical formula for the mass of a bullet is:

M=W/7000g

where: W=bullet weight in grains
and g=32.174 ft/second (squared) which is acceleration due to gravity.

The kinetic energy (recoil) of a bullet can then be found from the formula:

KE= m(VxV)/2

where m=mass of bullet
and V=velocity

THERE IS NO ARGUEMENT!! It's Physics (math), and unlike humans, infallible. 2+2=4

Gary you said; " ive used *the same powder charge* of h-335 using the hornady 350 grain rn and the speer 400 grain fp in my cowboy in 45-70 and i can attest that the 350 grain hornady is a bit more nasty" and you were correct, but your V was different.
Don't cuss Newton, he was one smart guy.

Swampman, if Newton were to kiss your a**; twice with the same velocity(not powder charge); you would find your recoil greater as the mass of his lips increases.

Need Medicine... "Newton's Law is not always correct"------ Bull****, that"s not Newton's theory; it's a LAW of nature ie. always correct.

As, far as felt recoil, my Marlin336 in 35rem. kicks quite well, on paper, but on deer and pigs; I never feel it.

Stock preference is just that; preference; however, you should use your fore stock grip to pull the rifle into your shoulder, not the pistol grip.

What a way to start my first post. Hello all!! sincerely, mad scientist

Welcome and great first post...:D:eek::D