Have others heard about this:
http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k179/hammerspur/th_Blackhorn_209_-_Web2.jpg
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/SpecialReport2.html

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/HuntReport2.html

http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_breakthrough.htm

I heard about it a while ago, if it lives up to even half the claims made about it it will be a winner. I would suggest buying it as soon as it becomes available because come this fall it will be impossible to find.

Yikes, I hope all that stuff is true. Sounds like good stuff.

sounds good, but a bit pricey

Have you ever heard advertising claims that didn't sound good? Have you ever heard a word of truth from Toby Bridges?

The hype over in-line muzzleloaders and their powders makes the 1960's magnum craze look tame by comparision. I take anything several of those so-called muzzleloader gun writers say with a grain of FFFFg. :rolleyes:

Bye
Jack

:confused: Lordy lordy, here we go again. Lets see, since I've been shooting smokepoles, we,ve been offered Goex, Swiss,and Elephant, straight black powders. Goex has a new powder out that pretty much makes the same claims, about clean up and accuracy, as all the replacment powders do. Then there's Black Mag, Pioneer Gold, Jim Shockey Gold, Triple 777, Pyrodex, and I'm sure a few others my smoked fogged old brain has forgotten. Far as I can see, there's only two ways to look at this, one, do we need another powder, the second, **** it's great to live in America. All these choices, and the freedoms to enjoy them:D. Thats why I don't mind being a disabled vet.

Butchb, Yes it is great to live in America and enjoy the freedoms you and all our veterans fought for. "Thank You" for your service and sacrifice. I wish people would be more conscious of their freedom of choice, though. I'm tired of hearing how someone's bargain brand import muzzleloader is as good as a T/C or Knight............ Bull****! We make the best right here. We need to exercise our freedom of choice more responsibly. I can't wait to try this new powder, and as much as possible, this boys dollars are staying right here in the USA

You can get on the website , read some ML sites. This is not going to be released until after the SHot Show in Reno this month. From what I am reding it is very expensive and not much more punch than T7. The big selling point is the cleanliness of the product which will probably get a lot of buyers.

Butchb, Yes it is great to live in America and enjoy the freedoms you and all our veterans fought for. "Thank You" for your service and sacrifice. I wish people would be more conscious of their freedom of choice, though. I'm tired of hearing how someone's bargain brand import muzzleloader is as good as a T/C or Knight............ Bull****! We make the best right here. We need to exercise our freedom of choice more responsibly. I can't wait to try this new powder, and as much as possible, this boys dollars are staying right here in the USA
I totally agree, now if we can stop electing the morons who allow our businesses to go over seas, and not stay here. Made in America will be on most all of our products, like it was when I was growing up. If it didn't say made in America, you couldn't give it away.:mad:

You know, we're a funny bunch. We're willing to shell out big bucks for new rifles and powders that promise to shoot farther, faster, break down for cleaning easier, fowl less, clean up quicker, non-corrosive, etc., etc..... you get my point. Yet when Savage introduced the ultimate in clean, efficient (2 to 3 times more shots per pound of powder) almost maintenance free muzzleloader, other muzzleloader and propellant manufacturers cried foul and pressured many state game agency's to ban them from the field, even though they offer no real ballistic advantage over the "magnum" 150 gr. Wunderloaders. I guess my point is that when a BP "substitute" is developed and marketed that does as promised (non-fouling, non-corrosive, higher velocities) what's the difference between that and the AA5744 I use in my Savages? Will the game agencies ban it, as they have smokeless in a Savage, or will it be permissible because it's usable in the big name brand rifles?
BTW, I use everything from Goex FF in my .54 PRB gun, T7 and BM3 in my sabot and bullet rifles to the aforementioned AA5744. If it goes "BANG", I'm happy :>)

american gun owners better take a long look at our auto industry. our gun makers are stamping guns "MADE IN AMERICA" and should be stamped " ASSEMBLED IN AMERICA" cause alot of parts being made(stamped) cheaper "OUT OF AMERICA":mad:. thanks for the opportunity to vent.

ezhunter, I understand your frustration, I work in the auto industry. You can no longer determine where a product is made based on brand name (Ford, Winchester, Maytag etc.) However according to Federal Trade Commission regulations, in order to wear a "Made in USA" label it must be "all or virtually all" made in the United States. In the case of autos, the actual amount of U.S. content must be disclosed. As the consumers of these products we can make it clear, based on our choices, where our loyalties lie. Mine's right here. Manufacturers will "see the light" when it impacts their bottom line but that's not going to happen untill people get their heads out of their......... Just my view (and vent) :>P

tmitch4570,you`re absolutely right about the fed. trade comm. regs. problem is people are willing to spend .50 less for a product made elsewhere and big business including our gun manufactures are having parts made out of country-cheaper. that equals higher profit margin for them and most-of-time sooner or later inferior product for us. i dearly hate sitting and looking at our gun industry following suit. anyway thanks for your ear.;)

Could someone chime in here, when they do see this powder on the shelves? I havent seen it yet, and I'd like to pick up a pound to try it. -Thanx.

my apologies fatelvis, i did get alittle sideways on the powder subject:o. will look for powder around here and report back. p.s. hope the container the powder comes in is made in USA.;)

as i promised fatelvis,went to several gun stores and can`t find powder anywere. when i ask them about ordering it i was told the same old thing about the cost of shipping b/p. they would have to order a large quantity in order for it to pay for itself. guess blackhorn 209 powder will have to hook up with some of glocks p.r. people to get the dealers to think its the best thing since sliced bread :rolleyes:. till then i`ll keep on looking, would like to try some:D

Seems Western Powders Blackhorn 209 is getting some good reviews.







http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=8453
Author Message
big6x6
Site Administrator

Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 4351
Location: Athens, AL
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Is this the final word in muzzleloading propellants?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Generally...I HATE trying/testing a new muzzleloading powder.. I've never seen anything I felt comfortable using/recommending other than Pyrodex/Triple Se7en...
Until TODAY!
TODAY I started with a brand, spanking new Knight KRB7, some 250gr/275gr Parker Ballistic Extremes, some 250gr/290gr Knight/Barnes PBT with EZ Load sabots, and some..TADA...Western Powders Blackhorn 209 muzzleloading propellant!
A little about Blackhorn 209... all per the powder container..
Front
Engineered for modern in-line muzzleloaders
High velocity..
Noncorrosive-Easy cleanup
No Swabbing between shots
Uses standard 209 shotshell primer
Back
Only for muzzleloaders with an enclosed 209 primer pocket(guess what this leaves OUT!)
Use standard 209 shotshell primers(do not use 209 muzzleloader primers)
Also do not use #11 percussion caps, musket caps, or rifle/pistol primers
High velocity
Superior accuracy
Noncorrosive
Low residue
No swabbing between shots
Not affected by humidity or temp
Breech plug easily removed after use
Easy cleaning
Volumetrically equalivalent to black powder
For bullets up to 300gr, DO NOT exceed 120 volumetric units of Blackhorn 209
For bullets above 300gr, DO NOT exceed 100 volumetric units of Blackhorn 209
Bullets over 350gr are not recommended
Not recommeded for sidelock muzzleloaders
There is also some loading data using 80. 100, 120gr of Blackhorn 209(BH209) with bullets from 200gr to 300gr.
Other observations..
When it comes to product uniformaty..Blackhorn 209 is in a class by itself! Until now..EVERY muzzleloading propellent has been made basically the same..make a batch of product and use screens to seperate it fffg/ffg/etc. Granule size varies even within granule sizes and the top part of the container will offer coarser product while down at the bottom of the container the product varies all the way to fine dust...ie the bottom 1/4 of a can of ffg Triple Se7en. I usually just throw it away! It's full of ffg, fffg, all the way to dust. Charge density varies GREATLY towards the bottom of a Triple Se7en bottle! From the top of the container to the last grain..EVERY granule of Blackhorn 209 is EXACTLY the same. It looks EXACTLY like smokeless powder! Ever seen any IMR-SR4759? It's an extruded/cylindrical granule that is hollow in the middle. BH209 looks the same:

http://photos.imageevent.com/chill6x6/shooting2008/websize/IMG_0046.JPG


I mounted a Leupold 3-9X40 VX-II using Warne Maxima rings/QD bases on the KRB7. I cleaned the bore with Hoppes #9 with a patch and jag and swabbed dry before shooting.
I started the morning with nothing more than setting off a CCI 209 cap before loading. The first shots that were fired with the BH209 were at 25yds to simply get the scope zeroed. I used 90gr and three shots later I was shooting close enough to get serious.
ALL GROUPS SHOT AT 100YDS
ALL POWDER CHARGES WERE MEASURED BY VOLUME USING A T/C U-VIEW POWDER MEASURE
AT NO TIME DID I SWAB OR DO ANYTHING BETWEEN SHOTS
The first 3-shot group was shot using 90gr BH209/250gr Parker Ballistic Extreme/CCI 209. There was certain NOTHING eventful about it at ALL! The group measured 1.53 inch and clocked an average velocity of 1726fps. Seeing I had PLENTY of room for more velocity I immediately increased the charge volume to 100gr.
The next three 3-shots groups using 100gr BH209/250gr Parker Ballistic Extremes averaged 1813fps. Three, 3-shot groups with the combo averaged 1.57 inches.
From shot number one to shot number forty-five using Blackhorn was uneventful! Really nothing to do but charge the rifle and load up! Here are the other combinations shot:
100gr BH209 275gr Parker Ballistic Extreme
Average velocity- 1773fps
100gr BH209 250gr Knight PBT
Average velocity- 1783fps
100gr BH209 290gr Knight PBT
Average velocity- 1739fps
120gr BH209 275gr Parker Ballistic Extreme
Average velocity- 1943fps
120gr BH209 290gr Knight PBT
Average velocity- 1913fps
Just FYI...the LAST group fired....120gr BH209/290gr Knight PBT..shot into 1.28 inches. The KRB7 had not been cleaned, swabbed, NOTHING done to the rifle whatsoever. It STILL hasn't been cleaned!

I also shot by Knight Long Range Hunter and Disc Elite .50 with the Blackhorn 209...
Of course the LRH shot without a hitch whatsoever as well. Velocities practically mirrored those shot by the KRB7.. Here are those velocites
100gr BH209 250gr Ballistic Extreme
1801fps
100gr BH209 275gr Ballistic Extreme
1786fps
100gr BH209 250gr Knight PBT
1812fps
100gr BH209 290gr Knight PBT
1757fps
120gr BH209 250gr Knight PBT
1982fps
Of course no swabbing of any type between shots...

The only problems were with the Disc Elite .50. I had THOUGHT there COULD be a problem with ignition since the breech plug wasn't of the "enclosed primer pocket" type. Sadly in it's stock configuration..the Knight Disc Elite .50 just isn't a muzzleloader for Blackhorn 209 use. At first I was using the W-W 209 shotshell primers and experienced hangfires using the 250gr Ballistic Extremes. Thinking more bearing surface was the order of the day I went to the 275gr BE. Still hangfires. NEXT I tried some Federal 209A primers, the hottest on the market. BETTER but still the same problem. Next I tried the tightest fitting bullet I had on hand, a 300gr SST/MMP HPH-12 and still the same problem. It is OBVIOUSLY completely an ignition system issue and the Knight full plastic jacket obviously uses too much of the flame before it gets to the powder to reliabily light off the BH209.

LOADING..
Simply a BREEZE! I thought I might have ignition problems with the 250gr Barnes PBT because it was SO easy to seat! There were ZERO ignition problems in the KRB7 and the LRH. The BH209 DOES leave a very light residue..kind of a soot. Saboted bullets seat with no issues whatsoever. Loading procedure was EXACTLY the same as when shooting Triple Se7en except NO spit patching of any type EVER!
Shooting..
Ignition was instantaneous in the KRB7 and LHR. Yes there WAS smoke but it was much ligher than with Pyrodex/Triple Se7en. When the smoke came your way..there was none of the noxious fumes associated with Triple Se7en.
Accuracy...
What can I say but after twelve, 3-shot groups in the KRB7 the average group size was 1.42 inches! Small group was .25 inches using the 250gr Parker Ballistic Extreme and a 100gr charge. I couldn't be more impressed.

The final question...
Am I going to use it? HECK yes! I absolute LOVE this powder! None of the messy swabbing associated with Triple Se7en use is a REALLY big plus in my book! I also like that using heavier bullets really penalizes you VERY little in the velocity department and I think this powder is more suited to heavier bullets. If the non-corrosive part of the powder proves to ring true, and I think it will..this powder is a home run!
I think the pinnacle of muzzleloading propellants is no longer Triple Se7en..it's Western Powders Blackhorn 209
http://photos.imageevent.com/chill6x6/shooting2008/websize/IMG_0036.JPG

_________________
Chuck
NRA Endowment Member
Last edited by big6x6 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Wonder when it will show up in stores around here?

.

that, forum readers is a first class field report. honest, in depth. post`s like this are what makes this forum what it is. THANK YOU, LANE!

Sparky357, you non-firearms political post was deleted per board rules. Also Mainer's and ezhunters further up.

MikeG, No Problem. Thank you

Lane, Thank you

You are all welcome!

Would like to update you on this:

The only problems were with the Disc Elite .50. I had THOUGHT there COULD be a problem with ignition since the breech plug wasn't of the "enclosed primer pocket" type. Sadly in it's stock configuration..the Knight Disc Elite .50 just isn't a muzzleloader for Blackhorn 209 use. At first I was using the W-W 209 shotshell primers and experienced hangfires using the 250gr Ballistic Extremes. Thinking more bearing surface was the order of the day I went to the 275gr BE. Still hangfires. NEXT I tried some Federal 209A primers, the hottest on the market. BETTER but still the same problem. Next I tried the tightest fitting bullet I had on hand, a 300gr SST/MMP HPH-12 and still the same problem. It is OBVIOUSLY completely an ignition system issue and the Knight full plastic jacket obviously uses too much of the flame before it gets to the powder to reliabily light off the BH209.


Big 6x6 said later, that the Disc Elite was using the Super Dome breech plug. This plug has a reduced-Teeny Weeny-fire channel. It comes standard with the Knight Revolutions. He will test the Elite with the Standard plug, that has a LARGE fire channel soon , and post his results.

I expect the standard breech plug to work just fine, but I've already ordered the Non Plastic Jacket modified plug for my 45cal Disc Elite--Just in case;)

http://images.ebsco.com/pob/KnightRifles/catalog/900044_100.jpg
http://www.knightrifles.com/catalog.aspx?catid=NonFullPlasticJacket


I got mine thru Midsouth for $25.02
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00061900044

I'm gonna get me some of the new powder, and run some tests of my own with the 45cal:):cool:


.

.

Have others heard about this:
http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k179/hammerspur/th_Blackhorn_209_-_Web2.jpg
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/SpecialReport2.html

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/HuntReport2.html

http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_breakthrough.htm

Its probably crap.
This is based on the other "wonder powders" that have come and gone and those that still hang on.
They all have problems compared to BP.
Dan