Hello! New guy here, cautiously investigating Black powder cartridge options...I am tossing an idea between the 45-120 and the 50-140...I would like to get at least 500 nitro express knockdown, with around 150-200 yd ranges, but havent found any 50-140 BP ballistics. Also, if a case were set to handle 140 grains compressed traditional blackpowder, and Pyrodex carries more giddyup per grain weight, how would a 140 gr charge of Goex (or any traditional black powder) compare to a 140 grain charge of Pyrodex? Also, what is the benefit of a 34" barrel to a 30", other than recoil control? Would Pyrodex perform better in a longer barrel, and is there a happy medium where traditional bp and Pyrodex can meet? And lastly, rifling twists for these things-heavier bullet, faster twist? My knowledge is pretty much in the flintlock area...sorry...

Any info is appreciated

Well, some people really like these thumpers and thats fine with me. A properly loaded 45/70 will shoot all the way through a bison so why one needs more power than it or say the 45 2 7/8 (modern 45-110) or 50/90 is beyond me. These two are more historically correct if you're into that.

I suggest you take a look at Mike Venturino's "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the OLD West" and the BP Reloading Primer by he and Steve Garbe. Both have tons of info on loading and give trajectory charts (the primer does).

Don't know what rifle you're contemplating or what you intend to shoot with it,but you sure will appreciate a shotgun buttplate instead of the crescent (a killer).

There shouldn't be much difference between BP and pyrodex. The Swiss BP is a little hotter and Hogdons 777 is about 15-20% hotter. According to the "Primer" they achieved 1479 fps with 140g of Fg pushing an NEI 537 gr bullet. This rifle, a Shiloh, had a 30 in barrel with a 36" twist. I have seen data with this cartridge where a 700 gr or so bullet was used. Recoil, as if you needed anymore, was described as very, very brutal...this from a 12 lb rifle.

You can get a lot of info from www.cascity.com (http://www.cascity.com) in the BROW and Darksider forums.

I think it is pretty well agreed that the 50-140 cartridge was never chambered in any rifle in the late nineteenth century. The 3 1/4 inch 45 caliber case is also controversial in that same regard. From what I have heard on some of the black powder forums, the 45-120 (3.25") is frustratingly hard to find an accurate load for.

That being said, a real authentic big thrumper would be the 50-90. It was originally chambered by Sharps, and is the cartridge that Billy Dixon used in his famous 1538 yard shot at Adobe Walls. Dixon was a buffalo hunter, and this cartridge obviously was able to dispatch those large critters easily, even at several hundred yards.

In the vintage days of Creedmoor target shooting, at 800, 900, and 1000 yards, the 45-90 (2.4") and the 45-100 (2.6") were very popular. Rifles chambered for these two cartridges are certainly capable of performing with a high degree of accuracy. If I can someday manage to scrape together enough sheckels, my next rifle will be an Axtell 1877 Sharps Creedmoor chambered for either the 2.4" or 2.6" cartridge.

8Iowa, I'm with ya but he says he wants 500 Nitro Express power. Take that 50-140 and start shovin a 700+ gr bullet (NEI makes a mold) around 1300 and it'll be there. These things are akin to shooting 3 1/2 in 12 ga Turkey loads thru a 7.5 lb shotgun.

The primary Buffalo calibers were the lowly;) 50/70, 44-77, 50/90, and the 45 2 7/8 in case that we call now the 45-110 although it was available in loads ranging from 90-120 gr of powder. The 40-90 SBN and 44-90 SBN had a pretty good following too. Most of the authenticated buff rifles were in the 11-12 lb range but there was a reason for the 16 pounders: 1) to dampen recoil and 2) to slow overheating of the barrel.

Still don't know what you're wanting to do with your blaster. If you can stand shooting those big Turkey loads off the bench for several shots then I guess you're a candidate for the 3.25 in cases. Personally, I wouldn't go for anything above a 45-90 or 50-90.

However, its your go. If you've already had experience with them then go for it, but I think I'd find a shoot somewhere and courteously ask if you might try a shot or two before you invest in a lot of very expensive dies and brass. Like Iowa said, these are tricky to load for too.

Yellowhouse:

It's not commonly known that W'm F. Cody "Buffalo Bill" killed over 4200 buffalo in a two year period using a 2nd model Allen conversion 50-70 Springfield trapdoor rifle. He determined that his rifle was so deadly that he named "her" Lucretia Borgia.......but that's another story.

I now have a 50-70 trapdoor Springfield and can hardly wait to shoot it.

The 50-70 is a great and underated round! If you're talking Indian Wars and the early Buff rifles...this is it!

Me? I'm sticking with my Shiloh 40-70 SBN which is a genuine pleasure to shoot and with a 400 gr bullet I'm just not too afraid of much of anything and it could, but I won't, be loaded to around 1800 fps. Venturino did this on a trip to Africa back in the 80's before he discovered BP. This round, no doubt was used some for Buff, was considered too light for that animal. Reason...never offered in anything but the 330 gr.

Aside from that, a 45/70 Marlin 1895 loaded with a 300 gr or heavier bullet in the 1700+ fps range with take anything out there...that I can afford anyway.:D

if you want the 500 NE power, get a Ruger No 1 and get it rechambered to 50-140. JD jones has some real cool stuff about hotloadin' the 50-140 on his website. he loads his stuff with the Hornady A-max 750 grain stuff, I not quite sure of the velocity so I won't post that for safety reasons

Get yourself a SPG Reloading Primer and you will have all the information you need. Mike and Steve have done a really good job on this primer and its all about reloading BP Cartridges and the 50-140 is listed.

Thanks much to all-I'm waiting on the SPG manual...I probably will swing the .45-120 route for range, since knockdown is a foregone conclusion with eiither. As far as what I'm planning to do with it, well, If Fred Bear can (could) kill anything with a bow, why not a BP cartridge?

Thanks much to all-I'm waiting on the SPG manual...I probably will swing the .45-120 route for range, since knockdown is a foregone conclusion with eiither. As far as what I'm planning to do with it, well, If Fred Bear can (could) kill anything with a bow, why not a BP cartridge?

Most everything outside of dinosaurs already have been and a lot of them with the 45/70:) I think you'd enjoy Venturino's book on Shooting Buffalo Rifles too.

Good Luck and Good Shootin!:D

i researched this for the last month or so. so far not many people have anything good to say about the 45-120. it seems to be almost unbearable in recoil dept unless you have a 15-16 pound gun. the 50-140 is even worse. i have fornd loads for the 50-90 (also called 50-110 when loaded up) that are only about 200fps lighter than 50-140. and if you get a masochistic urge in the future you can ream it to 50-140. just my thoughts on this. my plan is the 50-90

Mark:

While you have received great imput here, I just noticed that your initial questions regarding the loading of black powder and pyrodex have not been answered. If you load 140 grains of black powder in the 50-140, you DO NOT load 140 grains of pyrodex. Pyrodex is loaded on a VOLUME TO VOLUME basis with black powder - not weight to weight.

While pyrodex and a dizzing array of "substitutes" dominate the in-line rifle field, they are used far less in cartridges. Even though pyrodex is legal in Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette competition, no one uses it. Keep in mind that these are sophisticated shooters who tune their rifles and loads down to the last minuter of angle. Obviously, pyrodex doesn't cut it.

8iowa, thanks for reminding us all here that.

I've had a lot of people forget the Pyro for BP substitution, sometimes with unpleasant results.

I've got a 50-90 double rifle enroute to me now and I hope to load it down with Black Powder and BP substitute sometimes. Partly for the smoke (hahaha).

I will be happy with a 1100 fps load with a Cast Performance or my own cast lead bullet. I notice you say, Mark, you hope to get NITRO EXPRESS knockdown. I would say the most you could probably hope for is LIGHT NITRO, and that would most likely be with Reloder 15 or 5744 powder (not BP powders).

As you know, the difference between the 50-140 and 50-90 is case length. You can pack more powder in a 3 and 1/4 inch case compared to a 2 and 1/2 inch case. The original loads were 90 grains of Black Powder in a 50-90 and 140 grains of Black Powder in a 50-140. Normally these were FFG and not FFFG. I know expert ballistic guys like Graeme Wright strongly recommend FFG and NOT FFFG in large capacity cases which of course the 50-140 qualifies as.

So, If you want to go ballistic, you can load up your 50-140 cases with 140 grains of FFG Black Powder. I would start with 90 myself. Do not do Pyrodex in same weights as BP as others have warned. It could be dangerous.

Since I am playinga orund with laods for my 50-90 I would be glad to see what may be out there for loads for 50-140 that uses powders other than traditional BP.

What kind of gun are you looking at getting in the 50-140 caliber?

If you take a look at the chapter on black powder cartridges in Cartridges of the World, you will see that they don't get a whole lot of extra velocity or killing power by increasing the powder charge. In fact, MOST of the black powder rifle ballistics can be equalled by using high pressure pistol cartridges (.44 Rem Mag and .45 LC) in 20-26" barrels.

As a class, most of these cartridges have a practical hunting range of about 150yds. Beyond that and you have to start doing some pretty good range estimation, something the buffalo hunters excelled at. You can kill WAY out there with the big, heavy bullets (far better than kinetic energy might suggest) but the problem is hitting with them consistently at that range.

My advice would be to stick with a .45-70 and learn to use that, then think about going bigger.

True, but that's because the magnum powders cook longer in longer barrels. I'm not interested in the BP cartridge strictly for ballistics-If I were, I would skip the grief and buy a Remington 700 in 300 winchester mag. The hunting tools I have, modern and BP, have killed everything from Elephant on down--I just have an interest in the could-have-been side of things-like why buy a buffalo gun, a hippo gun, and a an elephant gun when if your hippo gun can take both buffalo as well as elephant, just own it?

Mark---

I am with ya there. BP is for those who want to work within the BP world, it is NOT about MAX killing power. I'm having a similar obession; except I am pursuing the use of BP in a few different guns AND working with a 50-90 using EITHER Black Powder or smokeless modern powders like Reloder15 and Accurate 5744. I think your 45-120 caliber will be mighty lethal and will take big game out to the ranges you spoke of in your first post. And it should be able to take the really BIG guys too at closer ranges.

What style/make gun are you thinking about getting in the 45-120 caliber?

I'm looking at a Sharps/1874 Long Range Express w/ 34" barrel-due to the butt width and barrel length standard. I will be forced to use a tube scope rather than a tang sight/hood front setup as a primary sighting system, as my vision is not geared for long range (I'm a shotgunner by skill, rather than a long ranger). I've heard of this cartridge being offered in an (double) express rifle, with an intersecting flight path of bullets being around 200 yards, but can't see the break action being as strong as a locking breech...

Mark

Those Sharps 1874's are beautiful. I rather like the tube scope for that long range shooting.

45-120 should be able to be loaded up to something else. I know some guys with the sharps in 45-70 and they think THAT is a cannon... wow the 140's will be way more than I'd want to shoulder regularly methinks.

Although there are so many variations with loads you cna just about achieve anything. So many load options, so little time...

Howdy pardner.......

I noticed that you were interested in the 50-140 cartridge. Great choice! I've have a C. Sharps 1875 in that caliber that I have been shooting for about 15 years now. I use mine mostly as a target rifle for both short and long range shooting.(300 - 1000 yds) It has a 34" N0. 1 heavy Badger barrel with a 1 in 22" twist. The load I use most often is 110 grs. of Fg with 1 card & 1 milk carton wad & a custom 790 gr. semi spitzer bullet cast 20/1.(1350 fps.)You will need a long bullet (1.625") in order to stabilize at long range. If you are only hunting with it then you could use a slower twist barrel & a smaller bullet ( 550 - 650 grs.), more like an "Express" rifle. Shooting 60 to 80 rounds prone at a match can be a lot of fun. Bring your asprins.

Hmmm...I understand the slower twist with the lighter bullet, but the 20/1 lead bullet-Would a harder lead achieve the penetration factor needed for an African buffalo type animal? I have noticed Cabela's offering a dangerous game muzzleloader bullet, but no way am I putting anything copper down a Sharps chamber. Also, what is your zero? 300 yards? What kind of drop at 1000?.(sorry, I'm nosy) As far as the aspirin goes, I shoot trap, and am familier with a number of recoil control systems...maybe I take off the Sharps butt, bore a lengthwise hole in the stock, and throw a pound or so of lead shot into it to deaden it some.

Mark

Mark,

I made up a 577 NE on a rolling block action. I use and NEI 750 gr. bullet. While it is fun to watch somebody shoot it, they always have to take a couple of steps back from the recoil. I would imagine that the recoil of a 50-140 would be much the same with a heavy bullet. I cringe at the thought of what your eyebrow would look like after you touched off a heavy kicker like that.
I did a bunch of research before I settles on a Sharps for hunting and competition. I cmae down on the side of the 45-90. With a nice 546 gr soft slug, it will penetrate a bison completely.

Just some thoughts on my decision process.

Good luck,

Mike

50-90 is quite close to that 45-90. Either the 525 Grain Performance Cast lead bullet with a flat meplat or the soft nosed copper jacketed 535 grain Woodleigh. But I could go either way. 45-90 or 50-90.

I have had a .50-140 for years and love it. I use a 550 grain hollow point bullet from a NEI mould I had made for me. I use a duplex load and if memorry serves me right, I put the data in the reloading section. A .50-110 would be a better choise nowdays as .50-3 1/4" brass is getting hard to find.

I'm finding that out-but .50 Basic is still easier to find than brass for the .70-150 Winchester...I don't even think they have dies for that one anymore.

This might help.

Or maybe this?

Hello! New guy here, cautiously investigating Black powder cartridge options...I am tossing an idea between the 45-120 and the 50-140...I would like to get at least 500 nitro express knockdown, with around 150-200 yd ranges, but havent found any 50-140 BP ballistics. Also, if a case were set to handle 140 grains compressed traditional blackpowder, and Pyrodex carries more giddyup per grain weight, how would a 140 gr charge of Goex (or any traditional black powder) compare to a 140 grain charge of Pyrodex? Also, what is the benefit of a 34" barrel to a 30", other than recoil control? Would Pyrodex perform better in a longer barrel, and is there a happy medium where traditional bp and Pyrodex can meet? And lastly, rifling twists for these things-heavier bullet, faster twist? My knowledge is pretty much in the flintlock area...sorry...

Any info is appreciated

I think you will find that few if any manufacturers of BPCRs recommend Pyrodex if you use it much it makes practical use of BP in the gun nearly impossible.
Swiss BP will likely produce as much velocity as P-dex and will produce better accuracy.
When I was Shiloh's custom shop I used to call the 3 1/4" cases "Phallic Symbol" cartridges. They are essentially useless. They are NOT the same as the 450 and 500 BPE English cartridges and do not shoot well with light bullets in most cases. With heavy bullets they produce too much recoil to produce accurate shooting in guns under 15-16 pounds and even then will throw recoil induced fliers from time to time. My 45-2.6" with 100 gr and 530 PP throws a flier now and then if not held EXACTLY the same shot to shot. Minor difference in how the gun recoils will throw a bullet out 2-3 ft at longer distances.

The best twist for a heavy bullet 50 is in the 22-26" range. For the 45 18" will usually do OK. I certainly would not go faster than this personally. Fast twist rates are another source of fliers in shooting lead bullets.

Excessive compression of P-dex can result in pressure spikes. This can cause real problems with vintage guns.

The 40-45-50 caliber 3 1/4" "Sharps cartridges" were never produced by Sharps and so far as is known only one test rifle was ever chambered for a case this long and Sharps found the cartridge basically useless and never produced any rifles for sale. But some rifles were rechambered at later dates. Some shooters liked "phallic symbol" cartridges in the 19th century too. The 45-120 and 50-120 mentioned in some accounts by buffalo were actually the 45-2 7/8" and the 50-2.5" cases. By seating the bullets out (possible with the tapered PP bullets) either of these cartridges would hold this charge or very near it.
The English 450 BPE is NOT the same as the 45-120 Sharps most were twisted for 300-350 gr bullets. My Reilly double in this caliber had a 40" twist. The same is true of the 500 BPE.
Sharps attempts to make an express cartridge failed since they used too fast a twist for the 290 gr 45 cal "Express" bullet they developed for the 45-2 7/8" case.

You would be well advised to do your home work before buying a 3 1/4" case rifle. I am not sure but I doubt that Shiloh even makes them. They are a source of grief for the maker in most cases.

Dan

My gunsmith made me up a 50-90 double barrel w th PacNor 50 caliber barrels that come in 1 in 15" twist. I have laoded up a bunch of Woodleigh 535 grainers with about 80 grains of Reloder15. I also made some loads using 5744 powder (developed for teh 50-90). I guess from what I read above this should shoot for poop.

I sure hope not.

My 50-90 double is finally being shipped.

In addition to the smokeless loads I've already loaded for her, I will load up some Black Powder (Goex ffG), most likely.

Can't wait to shoot this thing.