I recently bought a Savage 1899 cheap because it is in an odd wildcat caliber - 25x303 Savage. It looks like someone shot out the barrel of a 303 Savage and then put in a barrel liner in .25 caliber. The serial number indicates that the rifle was manufactured in 1912. I bought the rifle thinking to rebarrel it in something like 38-55. However, if I can reload the wildcat cartridge to approach 250 Savage ballistics, I'll keep it as is. I'm assuming that since the 303 Savage is ballistically the same as the 30-30 Winchester that I might be able to get somewhere around 2800-2900 fps with 100 gr. bullets and 2500-2600 fps with 120 gr. bullets. That should be adequate for deer at moderate ranges. Are these velocities feasible?

You have a very interesting old wildcat. Richard Simmons does not mention this one. Ken Waters wrote of several wildcat cartridges which were developed for the purpose of saving a classic rifle and its original barrel.
As this is an old rifle it should be held to the original operating pressure of the .303 Savage cartridge – 34,000CUP.
A chamber cast will tell you a great deal about your cartridge. I used the RCBS Load Cartridge Designer and necked the .303 Savage down to .25 caliber. In doing this I changed the shoulder angle from the original 16 degrees to 17 degrees 35 min. It just came about naturally as the case was necked down. I left the shoulder at the original 1.3509”. I made the neck .455” long as a Hornady 117 grain bullet is .975” long overall and from the cannelure down is about .455” so I figured this was a good estimated seating depth although it does lengthen the COAL to 2.535” Vs the original 2.520” and I don’t know if this length will feed through the magazine or not.
My imaginary .25-303 Savage has a water capacity of 40.7 grains of water and with the bullet seated .455” deep it has a water capacity of 34.7 grains.
The problem is the pressure should be held to the 34,000 CUP mark and this limits your potential velocity.
I assume you have a 24”barrel and this leaves you with an effective barrel length of 22.44”. Using the 117 grain round nose bullet I estimate a 22.4 grain charge of IMR 3031 as giving you 2,172 fps with a muzzle energy of 1,225 fpe at an estimated 34,171 CUP.
Looking at the same 22.4 grain powder charge using a 100 grain bullet gives you an estimated 2,338 fps for 1,213 fpme at an estimated 33,982CUP.
Looks like you will be best served with the 117 grain bullet in this example.
I believe I would start off with a slower powder such as IMR 4320. The IMR 3031 load I list is only has a 65% load density and I would rather fill the case to 80% or higher.
Thanks for posting about your rifle. I have a cold and this has been a good diversion. These are some very rough estimates, when you get a chamber cast post the case dimensions and we will look at your cartridge again.

William Iorg has done some technical research. My first thought when I saw this post was that the velocity objectives were optimistic. I did some checking, as I think that this wildcat would be more on the line of a .25-35 (perhaps it is), and the expected velocities, especially in an older gun, should mirror that of the .25-35. The above post is in line with that, a 117 grain bullet at 2200 fps. A 100 grain might be a couple of hundred fps faster.

William,
Thanks for your research. I kind of figured that if I kept the pressure down around 34000CUP that I would have the equivalent of a 25-35. However, I thought that since the 99 is a stronger rifle than the Winchester 94 it should be safe to run pressures around 37000 to 38000 CUP which are the maximum listed loads for the 30-30. That plus the longer barrel should give me 200-300 fps more, which should put it in the category of a short-range deer rifle. These would only be hunting loads. For shooting at paper I would probably use lead bullets at about 1600-1800 fps. I have been trying to find out if Savage changed the metallurgy when they introduced the 250-3000 and 300, but haven't found it yet. If they did, then I can see sticking to the lower pressures. If not, then it should handle the higher pressures with no problems. I'm not looking for a magnum, just something adequate for deer, which I don't think the 25-35 is. If I stick with the wildcat I'll have to buy 2 sets of dies or a custom set plus invest quite a bit in brass, so I wanted to figure out what I can do with it before I go that route. Of course, I have plenty of other deer rifles, so I could leave it as is and use it only on paper.
The rifle is mechanically quite sound. It locks up tight and I can't feel any slop in the action. It has some pitting on the receiver and barrel and someone butchered the butt stock, removing the crescent buttplate and replacing it with a flat one. I can't imagine why, since it is quite a heavy gun and would have kicked less than a 94. I was planning to get a new stock and buttplate for it to restore it as near to original as possible. However, I also think it would look nice with a tapered octagon barrel in 38-55, which was an option at the time. Or I could put a .30 cal barrel on it in either 303 Savage or 30-30.
Ken

The Savage 99 lock up has traveled through the years virtually unchanged. When you think about it the pressure range from.32-40WCF to the .284 Winchester is about 43,000 CUP. It’s hard to disparage such a versatile action. I believe the steel got better through the years but it would be hard to put dates on improvements in the materials the rifles were made from.
Somewhere around serial number 1,000,000 the safety was moved up to the tang, the striker fall was reduced, mainspring strength increased, lock time decreased and the trigger pull improved. The only real drawback was an increase in the required pressure to close the bolt and retract the mainspring. I have a late model rifle in .358 Winchester and I have no serious criticism of the way the bolt closes.
In 1938 E. C. Crossman wrote that with improved material and heat treatment the Savage 99 had adequate strength for the .300 Savage cartridge, the highest pressure lever action cartridge available at the time. The .300 Savage cartridge appeared around 1921. Ken Waters had a case fail in the primer pocket during his Pet Loads test and the high pressure gases split his butt stock. Just something to keep in mind with an older rifle.
I figure about 35 fps per inch of barrel with the medium capacity cartridges.
I am not a Savage Model 99 expert so I cannot make an informed comment on how well the older rifles handle pressure. Make a chamber cast and lets see how tapered the case is, the shoulder angle and case overall length. If you need a shoulder angle protractor I have attached one to several posts here on Beartooth and I’ll hunt up a link or attach it again. The protractor makes it easy to find a shoulder angle. There is a remote possibility this rifle was lined and rechambered in the late 1930’s or up into the 1950’s and the gunsmith straightened the case walls out a little.

Don't forget them .303 Savage cases are hard to come by. Just have it rebored and chambered to 38-55 but specify .376 groove. You will then be able to use .375 bullets which are numerous. The .377 and up size for 38-55 are not easy on the wallet, unless of course you go with cast. Which with a fine old shooter like your 99 I would make it a cast shooter.

I've now had a chance to make a chamber casting with Linotype lead. The measurements appear to be pretty close to the 303 Savage dimensions, except for the length, which is about 2.05 instead of 2.016. It appears that the neck and leade were made the same diameter, as there is no intermediate step between the neck diameter and the bore, just a chamfer of about 45 degrees. The resulting case is essentially a 25-35 Improved. I found load tables for the 303 Savage in an old Lyman reloading manual and the maximum loads listed for a couple of powders (3031 was one of them) were a couple of grains more than the maximum loads listed for the 250 Savage with similar weight bullets and the same powder. So, the case capacities must be nearly the same. I realize that the maximum listed loads may not be safe in all rifles, but I think that the 25-303 Savage is close enough to the 250 Savage to warrant further experimentation. It should at least be the equivalent of the 25-35 Improved, which seems to be quite adequate for deer-sized game. I'm going to make brass out of 307 Winchester - run it through a 303 Savage die, remove the belt on a Unimat lathe, then run it through a 250 Savage die to size the neck. It's a lot of work, but it should be fun to shoot.
Ken

KenKalt
I am afraid you have lost me on your last post. I am not quite sure how your .303 Savage case necked down to .25 becomes equivalent to a .25-35 Improved. It is not based on the leade from the case mouth to the bore. The .25-35 Improved is a blown out case that is straight, with a very sharp shoulder. I have attached a photo of a .25-303 Improved to illustrate the point.
As for comparing the .303 Savage to the .250 Savage, you have me confused again. The .303 Savage is very similar in shape, case capacity and performance to the .30-30, whereas the .250 Savage is a completely different cartridge and performance level. I am not sure how you can compare powder loads with 'similar bullet weights' since they don't use similar bullet weights. I believe it would be a bad starting point.
I believe some of the advice in the posts above would lead you to consider starting somewhere around the .25-35 loading data, and use a chronograph to check on what you are doing, and not try to hot-rod this cartridge and rifle into something it isn't.

Al:
The case dimensions of the 25-35 Improved and the 303 Savage are virtually identical, with the 303 Savage being about .020" larger at the base and and .010" larger at the shoulder. The shoulder on mine is actually a few thou wider than the 303 (about .420 instead of .415) and the case tapers only about .020" from base to shoulder. The 25-35 Improved tapers about .015" from base to shoulder. So there isn't much difference in taper. The sharper shoulder angle on the 25-35 Improved may reduce case stretching, but doesn't increase case capacity appreciably. So, the case capacity of the 25-303 Savage is the same or marginally bigger than the 25-35 Improved, just as it is marginally bigger than the 30-30. The dimensions I have seen for the 25-35 Improved are actually almost identical to the dimensions for the 30-30. There may be straighter versions, but they can't increase the case capacity by much since the base diameter of the 30-30 (and 25-35) are around .422". So, for all intents and purposes the cartridges are almost identical. Furthermore, since the 25-35 Improved has been chambered in weaker actions that the Savage 99 the operating pressures should be comparable to the 30-30 and the 303 Savage.
As far as the 250 savage is concerned, several soureces, including an old Lyman reloading manual I have lists similar maximum loads for the 303 Savage using 130 gr. bullets and the 250 Savage using 120 gr. bullets. If I recall correctly, the 303 has the edge by 1 or 2 grains of the same powders. I have no intention of hot rodding anything. The point I was making was that if the 303 Savage and 250 Savage can be loaded with the same quantities of the same powders, then it should be safe to load the 25-303 to within one or two hundred feet per second of the 250 Savage, which, again, is right around 25-35 Improved velocities and was my stated objective. I also have no intention of starting at maximum loads, but will work up gradually with a chrono and watch for pressure signs. Whether the 25-303 is identical to the 25-35 or not, it's certainly in the same ballpark and is not that far removed from the 250 Savage, which is not a high pressure cartridge, either. The 25-303 Savage certainly has considerably more case capacity than the 25-35 Winchester and should easily get a couple hundred feet per second more than that cartridge, unimproved. Which makes it an adequate deer cartridge.
I'm not sure what point you were making about the leade. I wasn't suggesting that it had anything to do with case capacity. I was just describing my chamber casting and noting that it wasn't throated normally. I'm just not sure how accuracy will be affected by not having a normal throat in the chamber.
Ken

The long leade may be to accommodate the 117-grain bullets.
I load the .25-35AI to higher pressure than the standard .250 Savage. It is not an apples to apples comparison but I obtain higher velocities with my 24” .25-35AI than I do with the same bullet weights in my 22” .250 Savages. I am comparing published load data for the .250 Savage and data I feel comfortable with but have no pressure information for in the .25-35AI.
The difference in bore diameters can have an affect on maximum load data.
I am lost with the “remove the belt” comment.
I took what I could of your measurements and figured the water capacity.
I reduced the neck diameter to .2816” (the same as the .25-35AI) and this altered the shoulder angle to 27 degrees 30 min. (original shoulder angle was 16 degrees) which was a common method of forming wildcat cartridges, This gives us a rather long neck, .576” long which is not a bad thing.
I left the point of the shoulder at 1.3509” and the bottom of the shoulder at 1.4774”.
This leaves the .25-303 Savage with a water capacity of 44.3 grains. The .25-35AI has an approximate water capacity of 40.9 grains. I didn’t spend a lot of time with case taper but it will not make a significant difference. Is you neck this long?

Just a suggestion, the older 1899's should no be pushed to hard, anything made before I think it was 199,000 didn't have the heavy duty heat treating. I was told not to do a 25-35 AI in one I have because of that. Les

Les,
Did you Consider the Tomcat? A little less radical with a good case shape and improved performance over the standard cartridge.

William,
The chamber casting has a very long neck, but I'm not sure how long the neck would have been on the cartridge. Presumably it could run a little longer than on the 303 Savage. I haven't measured the shoulder angle, but it's a lot sharper than the 30-30. It looks to be about 30 degress or so.
The reference to removing the belt was regarding forming 303 Savage brass out of 307 Winchester brass, which leaves a "belt" at the base which has to be machined off. However, I tried that method and my press just isn't up to the task, so I've ordered some 303 Savage (Norma) brass from Buffalo Arms and will neck size it to .257.
Once I get the brass and fire a few cartridges, I'll measure the water capacity of the cases. I figured on starting a bit below 303 Savage minimum loads because I figured the smaller bore may increase pressures somewhat. Then I'll work up from there. The 250 Savage was introduced in 1914 and my rifle was made in 1912, so it will probably handle the same pressure levels, but I don't think I want to push it. The twist rate appears to be 14", so I'm not sure that it will stabilize 117 gr. bullets, but I'll be happy if I can get 100 gr. bullets leaving at about 2700 fps.
Ken

I clipped this drawing from Greg Mushials RCBS Load Cartridge Designer. RCBS Load is user friendly and its easy to change specs on a cartridge.
I am only posting the picture to give you something to compare with your chamber cast. I'll be interested in seeing how close Cartridge Designer came to estimating the case shape.

Tell me more about this Tomcat William. Les

William,
I couldn't read the dimension on your drawing, but I re-measured the chamber casting. Some of the measurements, particularly the length measurements are a bit difficult to do accurately because the chamber doesn't have sharp corners. The measurements I got are: .442" just ahead of the rim; .415 to .418 at the shoulder. The length from inside of rim to shoulder is between 1.360 and 1.370 (proably the former as that is the .303 length); the neck diameter is .289 and the length from the base of the neck to the end of the leade area is .550. The shoulder is very close to .125 in length, which results in a shoulder angle of approximately 30 degrees, according to my math. The overall chamber length form the inside of the rim to the end of the leade is about 2.050.
Ken

Well, I finally received 50 303 Savage cartridges from Buffalo Arms. I ran them through a 303 Savage resizing die, then necked them down to .250 with a 25 WSSM resizing die and a 250 Savage neck sizing die (the 25 WSSM die left them a couple of thou loose in the neck). I then trimmed them to 1.912" so that 100 gr. Hornady bullets could be crimped on the cannelure and give me an overall length of 1.520, which is the maximum length that will feed through the Savage magazine. I started with 28 gr. of IMR 4230 and increased in 1 gr. increments up to 35 grains (5 cartridges each). I weighed every charge. 34 grains came to the bottom of the neck and 35 grains came halfway up the neck, so was slightly compressed. I took them to the range today to clock them with a Chrony Beta chronograph. From 28 to 32 grains I got steadily increasing velocities and extreme spread of around 50 fps. Average velocity went from 2285 fps with 28 grains to 2475 fps with 32 grains. The average spreads were 6 fps to 20 fps. At 33 grains things went strange, with 2 shot coming in at 2590 fps and the other three at 2921, 3077 and 3189 fps. This continued at 34 grains with two at around 2690 fps, a third at 2870, one at 3175 and the last at 3290 fps. Then, at 35 grains, everything settled down again, averaging 2730 fps, with an extreme spread of 56 fps and an average spread of 19 fps. Richard Lee claims that compressed loads burn slower and reduce pressures, so that might be what's going on. I thought at first that the chrony reading might be wrong, but the higher velocities also recolied a bit more, so they're probably accurate. There were no signs of high pressure with any of the loads, but it's a relatively low-pressure round so pressures would have to increase a lot before pressure signs would show up. I mic'd the heads of all the cases before and after firing and there was no expansion on any of them. Also, extraction was no more difficult with the hotter rounds than with the others. I'm satisfied with 2700 fps, so I have no desire to duplicate the faster rounds, but I am concerned that something was causing the pressure to spike somewhat.
I was basically fire-forming the cartridges, although the changes were minimal. The shoulder moved forward a bit and the taper was reduced a bit. After firing, the dimensions were: base - .440; shoulder - .425; rim to shoulder length - 1.370; neck length - .383 and overall length 1.938. The measured case capacity after firing is 45.5 grains of water, filled completely. A fired 30/30 cartridge was measured at 46.7 grains. Given that the neck diameter is quite a bit bigger on the 30/30, the powder capacity of the two is almost identical, so the 25-303 Savage is pretty close to the 25-35 Tomcat.
All of the cartridges were stretched about .025" after firing - from 1.912" to 1.938". There doesn't seem to be any difference between the lighter and heavier charges in this regard. With the long throat, I doubt that pinched necks would explain the pressure differences. However, I plan to trim them back to 1.912 and shoot some more of the 33, 34 and 35 grain loads to see if the pressure spikes return and I'll also start working up loads for accuracy.
Ken

I once experienced something similar when fire forming .22K Hornets using Winchester 296. I recorded higher velocities than I believed I could achieve using the fully fire formed case and my extreme spreads were above 100-fps.
I have thought about reflected pressure waves (not certain if I am expressing this clearly). My thought was as the cartridge case expanded against the chamber walls the pressure dropped and the bullet may have slowed as it entered the throat. As the pressure increased the bullet accelerated. As the cases are all slightly different I believed it explained the high extreme spreads between shots. I was using a maximum load for the standard Hornet in the standard Hornet case with bulk Remington 45-grain bullets. In the standard Hornet chamber these loads had proven uniform and quite accurate.
I stopped using Winchester 296 for fire forming. I have never experienced any thing of this sort using extruded powders. In general I can say I have never been surprised by the performance of IMR powders. I find IMR powders very predictable in their performance. With that said I have never been able to truly understand IMR 4320 in any caliber. I feel very comfortable using IMR 4320 in the .25-35, .25-35AI and in the .250 Savage.
I can say that something odd is happening here. Would you happen to have any sized but not fire formed dimensions? I am wondering how much your shoulder diameter was increased in addition to how far the shoulder moving forward – which you have given.
Personally I believe you will find your results using these same loads in the fully formed cases considerably different. I would predict you will find the velocities slightly lower for each specific charge weight – and this is all a “wag” on my part.
One thing I would do is to fire the loads in the fully fire formed cases before attempting to fire form any more cases with these heavier loads. This will confirm what I predict will be uniform results with IMR 4320 in the fully formed case.

I ran your numbers to make a model.
I left the outside neck diameter at .2856” at the case mouth and .2887” at the neck shoulder junction. Your dimensions gave me a 23 degree 10 minute shoulder angle.
I think you intended your COAL to be 2.520”?
My model shows a case full of water as 40.9 grains of water and with the Hornady 100-grain bullet seated .385” as 35.6 grains of water. The prediction and your reality are not too far off.
I put your cartridge on the Powley computer using a 100-grain Hornady Spire point at .987” long and seated to the approximate middle of the cannelure is .385” deep. This works out very close to perfect for your neck length.
With a 24” barrel length you have an effective barrel length of 22.473”.
The Powley computer selects the powder for you so I started at:
28.0 grains of IMR 4895 2,590 fps at 41,578 CUP.
29.0 grains of IMR 4895 2,631 fps at 43,117 CUP.
30.0 grains of IMR 4895 2,672 fps at 44,708 CUP.
31.0 grains of IMR 4320 2,712 fps at 46,255 CUP.
32.0 grains of IMR 4320 2,752 fps at 47,755 CUP.
33.0 grains of IMR 4320 2,790 fps at 49,307 CUP.
34.0 grains of IMR 4320 2,828 fps at 50,809 CUP.
35.0 grains of IMR 4320 2,865 fps at 52,366 CUP.
I estimate:
36.0 grains of IMR 4320 2,901 fps at 53,869 CUP.
So at the top end we are about 135 fps apart. What velocity did you get with 31.0 grains?
Here is a link to the shoulder angle protractor. Print it out if you can and let’s see how close my shoulder angle estimate is.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=32188&highlight=protractor

I should have thought to take measurements of the cartridges before firing. Fortunately, one primer failed so I had an unfired case. The fired cases were improved a lot more than I thought. The junction of the shoulder and neck only moved forward .010" (from 1.454 to 1.464), which makes sense because I bumped the shoulder back just till I could chamber the cartridges with some resistance. However, the junction of the shoulder and body moved ahead .100" from 1.290 to 1.390. The body also straightened somewhat, with the shoulder expanding from .412 to .425. The length of the neck didn't change at .400", but the overall length of the cartridge went from 1.912" to 1.938". Capacity of water increased from 41.8 gr. unfired to 45.5 gr. fired. Capacity of 4320 powder went from 35.5 gr. to 39.9 gr. (filled to the brim). I don't have my chrono sheets in front of me, but I think the velocity at 31 gr. was about 2425 fps. Velocities were increasing by approximately 50 fps for each additional grain of powder.
Ken

I printed out the protractor and will check the shoulder angle tonight when I get home. However, I suspect it's at least 30 degrees. It's much sharper than the 303 Savage shoulder angle, with the length of the shoulder being reduced almost by half.
Ken

William
I checked the shoulder angle last night. It's a little hard to guage because the shoulder is not exactly straight, but a bit convex. However, the closest fit was 30 degrees.
While I suspect my pressures were lower than those you calculated, as would be reflected in my lower velocities, I would be more comfortable in the 38Kto 42K CUP range. The fireformed cartridges have very similar capacity to the 250 Savage, so I checked out the Lee reloading manual for that cartridge. It lists a number of powders that achieve 2700-2800 fps at around 41K-42K CUP with a 100 gr. bullet. Some of those powders are not readily available here, but two certainly are - IMR4350 and Win760. I used IMR 4320 because that's what I had on hand and it is listed in Lyman's as suitable for 25-35 loads. However, if I can reduce the pressures and still get 2600-2700 fps I'll certainly use something else. Both those powders seem to get more velocity with 100 gr. bullets out of the 250 Savage (also the 30/30) at lower pressures than 4320. So, I thinking of switching to one of those for my next session.
Ken

Well, I finally got back to the range for another session with this cartridge. I went with H380 powder because the Hodgdon site indicates that in the 250 Savage it gives relatively high velocities with the lowest chamber pressures. Since the powder capacity of the wildcat is almost identical to the 250 Savage I started at 33.5 gr and worked up in .5 grain increments to 35.5 gr. which is .5 gr. higher than the lowest load listed for the 250 Savage. Hodgdon lists the pressure at 35 gr. at 36,400 CUP. and 37 gr. at 42,600 CUP, so 35.5 gr. should be somewhere around 38,000CUP. At 35 gr. the average velocity was 2650, which is only about 20 fps slower than the Hodgdon listing for the 250 Savage, so the pressures must be similar. The velocity at 35.5 gr was just over 2700 fps. This time all of the velocities were better behaved, with no surprisingly high readings. The maximum spreads were around 50 fps or less and the average spreads were in the 10 to 20 range. The average velocities increased fairly uniformly at 40-60 fps for each increase of .5 gr of powder.
The problem is that accuracy was terrible. It has a Lyman aperature rear sight with a large hunting aperature and a small bead front sight. So, with my rather old eyes I wasn't expecting MOA accuracy. But at 50 yards, all of the groups ran around 4 inches. I was shooting 10-shot groups, except for the 35.5 gr load, which was a 5-shot group. I was using a good rest. In most strings there would be 6 or 7 shots within about 2.5 inches and then 3 or 4 further out. I was waiting one minute between shots and several minutes between strings, so the barrel wasn't getting hot and the "flyers" weren't consistently in any particular direction or in any particular order. So I don't think pressure from the forend is the problem. Most articles I have read on the 250 Savage say that a 1-14 twist will stabilize 100 gr. bullets, but my Lyman manual says that most 1-14 barrels will not shoot 100-gr bullets well, so I plan to try 90-gr. bullets next. I'm thinking about using the Sierra 90-gr Gameking, which should eprform well on deer. I might also try some lighter varmint bullets, either 75 or 87 gr to see what kind ot accuracy I can get with those.
I really do like this cartridge and hope I can get it shooting well. I think it must have been an early attempt to duplicate 250 Savage ballistics with a rimmed cartridge that could still use the 303 Savage rotor, probably some time before Savage went with the tighter 1-10 twist for the heavier bullets.
Ken