Some are reporting this as a done deal, not quite. This also has some proposed regulations.

http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005119445

I like Wyoming's plan best. I'm so barbaric. Of course the Defenders of wildlife are going to sue, they've done that every step of the way making is very expensive for our Fish and Game folks to manage the wolves here in Idaho. They would have no hunting of anything if they could including our big game. Such deluded folks and such a shame.

I say any wolf outside of the Glacier & Yellowstone parks should be fair game as with any other animal. Those **** wolves you think would soon figure out that either they stay in the park or they are going to be shot at. I dont think wolves have any place on the american landscape except in the National parks, Wildlife preserves and such. We pay taxes to help ranchers raise their cattle, sheep and such. We pay taxes in order for FWP to manage the big game heards. Here we are now spending more tax dollars to bring the wolves back from extiction just to delist them. This plan makes no sense to me what soever. How long before we have to put the wolves back on the endangered species list? Don't get me wrong. I love to go to Yellowstone and see the diverse wildlife species and ecosystems. That's my 2 cents worth.

After reading that article, I looked up the group called Defenders of Wildlife (http://www.defenders.org/index.php). Interesting to check out their Annual Report for 2006 (http://www.defenders.org/about_us/index.php). Looking at some of their institutional/corporate donations, I've no doubt that some here would be interested to know where some of their patronage dollars are going.

Here is a copy of that list:

Aetna Foundation, Inc.
Alliant Energy
American Express
Avon Products, Inc.
Bank Of America
BD
Benjamin Moore & Company
Boston Foundation
BP
Th e Capital Group Companies
Cardinal Health
Computer Associates Inc.
Dayton Foundation
Th e Economist Group
Endurance Specialty Insurance Ltd.
Fannie Mae Foundation
Gap Inc.
Gartner
GlaxoSmithKline
IBM Corporation
Illinois Tool Works Inc.
J.P. Morgan Chase Foundation
Th e JK Group, Inc.
Lehman Brothers
Th e Lubrizol Foundation
Merrill Lynch & Company
Foundation, Inc.
Microsoft Corporation
New York Life Insurance Company
Newmont Mining Corporation
Nike
Open Society Institute
Oracle
Pepsi-Cola Company
Th e Pfi zer Foundation
PG & E Corporation
Th e Progessive Insurance
Foundation
Th e Prudential Foundation
RealNetworks Foundation
Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
Safeco Life Insurance Company
Temple-Inland Inc.
Tootsie Roll Industries, Inc.
Th e Toro Foundation
Tyco International, Ltd.
Verizon
W. W. Grainger, Inc.
Washington Mutual Foundation
WellPoint Foundation
Wells Fargo
Th e Whitaker Foundation
Th e William & Flora Hewlett
Foundation

Wolf tags here are going to be $19 for residents, I'm gonna get one even though I won't be hunting them. I'll be happy to know that some of those tag dollars will go towards fighting those environmental lunatics. Hey, if they get to call me barbaric, I can call them lunatics.

Well, every one is entitled to their opinion as this is a free country to say what we want. Im probably outnumbered here but I will say it freely. First off I absolutely love hunting and I feel that I will only hunt and kill what I want to eat.I love wild game be it fish or meat or crops. I cant believe the ignorance to come out and say-I dont think wolves have any place on the american landscape except in the National parks, Wildlife preserves and such.Thats an awful thing to say after the millions of years of evolution leaving the best of the best to interact in harmony with the creatures and land around them. We are the ones who disrupted this land and molded it to what we want (so called progress) which many of you detest .The heck with the cattle , bring back the bison-they taste better and they are healthier and can deal better with our wolves.When I hunt I like the excitement of knowing all the animals are here-intact .Those wolves will also help drop down the population of the coyotes which are creating problems in areas they dont belong. The only thing worse than wiping out a single species like the wolf is real estate develeopers which wipe out all our dreams of wild lands to enjoy for the sake of "progress". Please redirect your anger to that direction and let the wolves roam. (ps- if you eat them I have no problems with that.Ethically of course-not processed for dog food). OK ....now blast me about how much money this or that guy loses!!

Well it's about time, since it's been about 5 years now since reintroduction goals were met. Now that there are way more wolves than the goals that were set, Defenders of Wildlife still aren't happy. No surprise since their goal isn't really a healthy wolf population, it's to eliminate all hunting, and wolf predation gets them closer to that goal.

No, I don't think wolves should be eradicated outside of parks, I just want them controlled like any other big game animal, which is what the states management plans strive for. And I don't subscribe to the thought that something that is shot has to be eaten. There are simple reasons to shoot predators in the overall scheme of game management, and the argument that anything you shoot should be eaten is just a tired reason out of the anti-hunting playbook.

cvarcher, I can see where you got your ideas. When I was a boy, I seem to recall some wolves still in Illinois; now it’s over run with coyotes (big problem). Let me try to set you straight, as regards Idaho.

Southern Idaho was desert and mountain, with some good salmon creeks running through, when the mountain men got here. Was a lot of white tail deer (where now there is mule deer) and elk and buffalo. Was a wild grass provided wheat for the people and grazing for the herds, and camas (a most remarkable food, cooked right). Not to blame Californians for everything but, settlers passing through fouled the camp sites & streams, fished out the creeks, grazed out much of the grass and spooked off the game; to a considerable extent. Buffalo went extinct out here. Then came farmers. They ran hogs on the camas, irrigated the desert, created new fields and set to planting new crops and raising new stock. Then came game and forest management. Much of what we have out here is created and/or managed land; same with the animals.

No shortage of predators, coyotes & cougars especially. But we thinned out our wolves considerably, though not totally. Were good reasons to do so, and good reasons to stop where we did. Our native wolf fit in, had their niche, right up until 1995. Exotics brought in then don’t. From personal observations, of myself and friends, the differences are: size, social structure, food resources, habits. First to go were our native wolves, then a lot of our hunting dog packs. Also been hard on elk and, to a lesser extent, deer & cougar. People in California want the exotic wolves out here; we don’t.

Silvertipmo, Could you tell me what you meant by exotic wolf as opposed to native wolf? I understand the changes that happened to the land but there must be room for all creatures to live.Maybe at the expense of some of our conveniences.I can go with a management plan outside the parks but not a blatant disregard for these animals that some think has no purpose in life.As for Shawns comment- There are simple reasons to shoot predators in the overall scheme of game management, Eagles were part of that thinking . They were considered vermin.Great shooters like Elmer Keith and Howard Hill shot them at a time when people did not have any understanding or compassion. Who here on this forum will shoot a Bald Eagle or Golden Eagle ?

This is a very emotional issue. Everyone needs to keep in mind the other person's right of opinion. Please keep it respectful so that we don't have to lock the thread.

Just a kindly caution to keep things from getting out of hand. Thanks.

Seems to me it would be a real good idea for folks from NY, DC or where ever to take care of their own back yard and let us here in the North West take care of the NW.

Things are so different than back when the wolf ran free in America there is no way we can return to the 1800's.

Idaho's Fish and Game Dept. although I am sure not perfect, had done a pretty durn good job of game management IMHO the last several decades. It just seems out of place and not quite right that decisions are made for them by folks that don't live here.
Akin to Seattle residents deciding how to manage alligators in Florida. It would be impossible for them to do a decent job of it.

As I suppose you can tell I will be glad when and if I get the opportunity to shoot wolves here in Idaho. Control is badly needed and beyond.

cvarcher, since you live in New York, you might not have any knowledge of how the wolf, grizz, mountain lion, and the like are changing life in the west. As people, are we to just move out of Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana and leave the entire area as wilderness, leaving a couple of roads through the area for the really brave of heart?

I live and work in Jackson Hole. I came up to Jackson from Laramie to enjoy the outdoor sports, like most. But the hills around here are changing.

These animals are multiplying in such great numbers that they are threatening the viable existence of other game animals. In another couple of months, come with me into the back country and you will see a slaughter of animals that no one is talking about in the press. A couple of years ago my wife and I took trip into some areas I like to hunt bear in. After seeing dozens of carcasses, she was asking what was the cause. It is simple I told her, we are in the "Detroit" of the woods.

It doesn't take great numbers of them though. A friend of mine shot a lion that they were documenting sometimes 14 kills a week. She wasn't eating 14 animals, just killing. She had some tooth problems or something and it was thought that she was just being cranky.

These are animals that have no preditors, except man. People are having more encounters with these animals, making it much more dangerous to enjoy being in the mountains. I will no longer hike without a weapon. Please, I'll try to be polite, but I don't see where anyone who doesn't live in these states or anywheres close can have an informed opinion. An opinion based on media, isn't an informed opinion.

I like the bumper sticker that says, "Save 100 elk this year, kill one wolf."

I like the one that says "Forget wolves, save a Rancher"

Everyone should keep in mind that wolves do exist outside of MT, ID, and WY. They are currently in Minnesota and Maine, and jumping those borders is not far away.

Yeah, but the biggest part of the stink is with Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming where they are growing them and sending them out to feed and breed at will.

cvarcher, in case it doesn’t show, I have an inordinate fondness for wolves and cougars. Our understanding of wolves is quite imperfect, and in an early developing stage. One theory would have the Asian Siberian Timber Wolf and the American Coyote as the base stock for all the diversity. I’m not ready to buy off on that, there is great diversity and a lot yet to be contemplated, let alone understood. My interest is based on enjoying quality time with these creatures.

Each area of the US has certain species native to it, as in established in some harmony in the area at the time of European arrival. Little is set in stone, and most things are in a state of change. At my time of arrival in Idaho, 1970’s, the species of wolf was pretty well established. Arm chair biologists claim it was a gray wolf, but they also claim they were long extinct. In case it doesn’t show, I don’t think much of any biologists not in the field; our Idaho Fish and Game biologists’ knowledge is surpassed only by their love of the wild; therefore, they are not armchair. The wolves I interacted with in the forest were more like the red wolf; not red wolf crossed with coyote until it takes a DNA sample to tell the difference, more like a red wolf gray wolf cross (as is now being proposed for the basis of the eastern timber wolf) would be a possibility. They were much smaller than the exotics (just over twice the size of a coyote), they ran in much smaller packs, they were very interested in beaver and not interested in elk, and seemed to view me as an idiot that would leave them the choice parts of a deer (cougar seem to share that opinion). Our natives were not as aggressive towards other species as the exotics are; they did not engage in noticeable warfare with other wolf packs, or take on our dog packs.

The exotics are of a different size, appearance, temperament, diet, social structure & habits and behavior. They have greatly disrupted the area. One would have to have seen, lived with and interacted with our natives to understand how obviously the exotics are an exotic introduction, NOT a native re-introduction.

Natives ate less per wolf and smaller packs, so their diet was based on smaller needs. Natives broke off from their packs early, mated and formed new packs; exotics stay with Mamma & Papa, form large packs. Exotics are incredibly territorial. The large packs lead to a far greater survival rate of the pups, also to much greater food needs, both per wolf and per pack, spook more game. The exotics kill for the joy of it, eat very little of what they kill; something not observed with the natives. The exotics make war amongst themselves for control of territory; something not observed with the natives. Natives were not in the habit of coming into town, circling our homes and looking in the windows like the exotics are wont to.

I understand that New York City has a bit of a garbage problem. Nothing that a few hundred problem black bears, re-introduced at strategic spots, couldn’t handle. They are, after all, native to that part, at one time, you understand. And a whole lot easier to live with than the exotic wolves. Irrigation has changed Idaho as much as concrete has changed NYC, so it shouldn’t be no more problem for them than the problems they are making for us.

Silvertipmo summed up the problem pretty good and so did several others. The wolves were facing now are not nor were ever native to this part of the country. They are the Canadian Gray Wolf that's been raised in captivity and released here. They are devastating our big game populations and our cattle production. They are being produced and released from captivity. Once in the wild they breed and produce an animal that kills for fun as well as to eat.

The folks that live here and grew up in this country, that have hunted, camped and recreated here all their life have lived to see the difference the Canadian gray wolf has made and are pretty passionate about the changes. Their also pretty unhappy about not having any say in the decision made to introduce this species into their ecoculture.

I have no problem with anyones opinion. But I have to live and support my family in the state of Montana. One of the ways I support my family is the harvesting of the big game in this state to put food on my table.

My biggest beef is the taxes that we pay to support these different wolf programs. We payed to eradicate them and now we are paying to bring them back from extinction to compete with the elk & deer herds that we pay our taxes to manage.

Good grief, make a decision and stick with it.

BigSky

I can appreciate your input on the differant subspecies of wolves and there non native reintroduction. I wouldnt agree with that at all either. But remember it was our dumb government that issued the eradication of the original wolves which now led to this. I thought red wolves were the southern cousins to the northern grey wolf and here in the east was the Eastern Timber wolf.There is a similar problem with wild hogs which none were native here but now there are differant strains and crosses.That thing with a cougar killing excessively because of an aggravated tooth doesnt sound right. My readings claim a deer kill a week to eat. I am offended that some would say because I live in the east I should have no say at all.To them I say these animals belong to me as anyone else .I pay taxes too. In fact I will be moving to the Northwest very soon and will develeope my own opinions to this. I am educated and do believe the biologists are the best group for getting sound advice as long as no lobby groups and politicians use their influence for their own gains. We spend money to destroy countries and then pay to rebuild them. Thought you knew that!

I don't know what part of the Northwest your moving to CV, but your welcome to come over and talk about it anytime and I'll show you some places to hunt if your near me. Your right we all should have a say and your also right when you talk about the government making some silly decisions. The folks that live here where the Canadian Gray wolf was introduced sure didn't have any say in this issue at all.

Only thing I can say for sure is were having more and more wolf people interactions here and I suggest you carry some kind of sidearm when your in the woods out here. We've had two interactions here in Idaho in the last few months where the folks were scared out of their wits. Nothing came of either, but there will come a day. Even being able to shoot to scare them is better than a sharp stick in the eye. I used to carry a 22 pistol, but now when I go fishing or camping a 41 mag stays on the hip.

Anyway lets not let this degenerate into a political argument and a diatribe on politicians and keep it wolf orientated.

I have about 3 years to go before retirement so Ill make the best out of upstate New York. We have our northern wilderness which you probably know as the Adirondack Mts. Years ago when I was 18 and camping/hunting deep in with a buddy we came upon a open bog meadow.There were moose prints in there when supposedly moose were eradicated in NY. I took a spot in a gnarly blow down and waited. Just before dusk two canines came lopping out pissing and playing.I swear they were Easten Timber wolves. Heads looked like Siberian Huskies but much bigger, bushy tails long bodied.Man that really got to my soul. Dont take much for me either. whether Im canoeing with my fly pole trolling a fly for trout listening to the loons crying in the backround or watching the bats almost hit me in the head while Im paddling ,I can never get enough. And I do believe in carrying a firearm for protection eveytime.It upsets me to see how man screws up the harmony of our environment .I think I must have some redmans blood in my body.!Im not your typical Easterner . I am also a falconer and hunt small game anywhere theres pockets of wildness left in our citified jungle. And of course a traditional bowhunter using bamboo longbows and wood arrows that I make. I was thinking of Southern Oregon near Roseburg or Grants Pass.

Education is extremely important but without it's use in conjunction with hands on experience in the field, preferably years of it, in the area and with the critters your decisions will have a substantial local effect is like shooting blindfolded and expecting to hit your target.

The idea that a animal is allowed to once again "run free" because it gives folks a warm good fuzzy feeling doesn't necessarily mean it is a good idea.

Jury is out as to whether red wolf is an American species of wolf or a hybrid, something they are wont to do. Biology should be studied in the field and the library, only one leads to error. Arm chair biologists have no actual knowledge of what’s in the woods, and are usually political rather than scientific. Our Idaho Fish & Game biologists are dedicated, knowledgeable professionals who spend much of their own time in the forests. I have nothing but admiration and respect for them.

Arm chair claim is that red wolves could not cross rivers, except the lower Mississippi. Therefore, any wolves north of the Ohio or west of the upper Mississippi were classified as gray. In Indiana, Illinois & Kentucky, native wolves were identical on both sides of the Ohio. Recent DNA evidence on your Eastern Timber Wolf also shoots down the red wolf distribution theory. Another site posted a picture of an “extinct native” in Pennsylvania got hit by a car a few months ago. He thought it had been “re-introduced”.

I am offended that people who live in areas with no “re-introductions” claim the right to destroy our home. Was trying to make that point with my NYC suggestion. Might also mention that according to the Constitution, it is our call not yours. I can understand how you read an article that completely contradicts what those of us on the ground are telling you. I was expecting a different wolf when I came out here. Over the years I’ve known various people raise wolves (gray and red) and have a bit of experience with the breeds, the same as with dogs, as context for my experience of them in the forest.

Cougars eat the guts of their kills, returning once or twice, usually. They stalk continually, but usually seem to kill only when hungry. The size and well fed nature of the cougars I see would imply more like two deer a week. Their preferred cuisine is can fed dogs. Otherwise, they are pretty happy to stick to deer (and trash fish thrown on the bank, another a gift of the government). That one who couldn’t eat much of her kills would go on killing, lapping blood and trying to eat what she could, is absolutely consistent with my experience of them.

As for Shawns comment- There are simple reasons to shoot predators in the overall scheme of game management, Eagles were part of that thinking . They were considered vermin.Great shooters like Elmer Keith and Howard Hill shot them at a time when people did not have any understanding or compassion. Who here on this forum will shoot a Bald Eagle or Golden Eagle ?

Diversionary discussion, at best. Since you seem to admire the "redman", what do you think of their headress of eagle feathers? Who knows, maybe that was just a Hollywood fabrication??

So, let's just give some history so everyone will know why this is such a hot issue.

In 1995, the wolf reintroductions began. The goals for the tri-state area of Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana were for 30 breeding pairs. In Y2K, 30 breeding pairs were achieved, and according to the plan/agreement, this would begin a 3-year countdown to wolf delisting.

In 2004, wolves were not yet delisted, and there were 66 breeding pairs, and an estimated 835 wolves in the tri-state area.

In 2005, there were estimated 600 wolves in Idaho, 153 in MT, 200 in WY. Delisting is still just a figment in someone's imagination.

Fast forward to 2008, and there are approximately 1500 wolves in the tri-state area, and approximately 1000 of those are in Idaho. And FINALLY, delisting is in sight, but Defenders of Wildlife threaten lawsuits to block that delisting.

Previous studies done in Yellowstone indicate that wolves account for 22 ungulate kills per year, per wolf. 80% of those ungulate kills are elk. 22x1000x.80 = 17,600. That's 17,600 elk being killed by wolves. Our state population is (or was) 125,000 elk. Hunters killed approximately 19,500 elk in the last documented season in Idaho.

What do you think is going to happen to our available elk hunting tags with these kind of numbers? And with wolf numbers being so far beyond what reintroduction goals were, yet Defenders of Wildlife still aren't satisfied with that, what do you thing their motivation is?

You can go stomp around the Northwest Woods with your traditional bow, and that in itself is probably satistying. But most of the rest of us want something to shoot at while we're out there if we've bought an elk tag.

In this part of Idaho, the Clearwater Drainage, our elk hunting has gone down the tube and anywhere you camp you can listen to the wolves gather to hunt at sundown.

It's an eerie feeling when you get up in the morning and there's hundreds of wolf tracks around your camp. I quit putting an elk camp up two years ago. I'm handi-capped and need to hunt area's that are fairly easy to get to or hunt from a vehicle and our elk have been driven to places that are simply to hard for me to hunt. Add to that more wolves mean less elk and elk that are far more scattered. Less elk also mean less cow elk to hunt for us folks that used to hunt the late season or muzzle loader season when cows were easier to get.

Up out of Grangeville a fella watched a wolf pack kill and eat two of his bear dogs and could do nothing about it. In a few minutes there was nothing left but a head and part of their spines. Here around Dwarshak lake most of the bear and cat hunters have given up trying to keep a pack of dogs.

The new rules will at least allow a fella to protect his dogs in a case like above. When we do have cattle deprivation the feds have come in and killed the lead wolf in the pack. This is supposed to stop the cattle killing. Somehow killing the lead wolf will instantly make the others loose their taste for beef. I've never quite been smart enough to figure that one out, but the feds tell me it's so.

This has caused an increase in the bear and cougar population to the extent we can shoot two bears in certain areas and I've had cougars in my back yard for the last three years now. They love our town deer population along with any dogs or house cats they can catch. Fish and Game told me to get a tag and shoot them when I see them, but I live in a small town of about a hundred and fifty folks and there's simply to many houses around to do that safely.

From a hunters standpoint I'd much rather see the situation the way it was before the Canadian Gray Wolf was introduced into our ecosystem, but now that were to this point my wishes nor none of my fellow's that live here were ever consulted or given any kind of credibility.

As a varmint caller and coyote hunter I know that once a viable population of canines get established it's darn hard to get rid of them. I've been trying to do in the coyote population for 45 years now without much results. I'm going to buy a wolf tag when available and see if they will come to a call. I sure know where a bunch of them are.

As far as the pros and cons when the wolf is considered it doesn't matter as were loaded with them now. I know that everytime I fill a tag it's going to be a wonderful feeling for me. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

There are more wolves in Minnesota than every lower-48 state combined.
My children have grown up with them as did I and as did my father,grandfather and great-grandfather.
Up until 1972 Black Bear were listed as varmints over here too.

We may shoot wolves if they are "about" to do damage/harm to pets/livestock/persons.

I've lost dog's,horses,cattle,fowl and goats to wolves.

We have zero coyotes in the area as wolves kill off all competition that threatens their range.
Any K-9 that happens into a packs range is dealt with harshly to say the least.

George

I just want to say that I am always for keeping the balance of everything intact .If these wolves are exotic non native as you say then it is wrong to be stocking them period and it should have been nipped in the bud right from the start. We have our own non native introduction problems here in NY as well and we also had reintroductions that were done well.So you are not alone. Those elk numbers dont sound that bad with 36k out of 125k take per year .But Im not a biologist knowing how many are needed to replenish the herds.Here in NY we have close to one million deer where it was once extinct as well as our turkey. Now the coyotes are supposedly hitting them hard. They shouldnt be here at all and wouldnt if our own wolf was not exterminated.Of course you have to expect some ungulate takes but its the working together of the government -biologists and hunters that are suppose to regulate so theres enough to go around for everything.This sounds like the same horror stories of the African killer bees which are hybridized european and african .Another one of mans follys playing with nature.Oh well, if those wolves are non native then shoot them .

I agree with everything Silvertip and Faucutte said. You have to live hear an go into wolf country to know about these exotics.

One thing for shore, even a season on them is not going to help much. We can shoot cyotes and we have not wiped them out. wolves are smart, if you are up in there country you will find how smart they are.

Read the articles from Dr. Valerie Geist. He preaty well what we are up against and iit is not preaty
Ron

If man coulda wiped out Wylie E Coyote he woulda a long time ago.
The wolf may be a smart critter but he was purty much wiped off the map in most area's of the country. Man tried to do the same to Wylie too even to the use of cyanide, traps, and placed bounty on his head, plus Government paid hunters. Coyote made it through and has spread to take root in the East where the wolf was exterminated. Don't count Mr. Coyote out when it comes to survival.

Marlin and tybo hit the nail on the head. Treating the wolf as a big game animal isn't going to put much of a dent into the population. That will take an eradication program such as happened before and that just isn't going to happen in this day and age.

We also have a growing bear and cougar population here so much so that were seeing bear and cougar's in our backyards where they were never there before. We had a bear in our back yard last year here in town and a yearling cougar for the past two years. Wolves have been sighted up Little Canyon three miles from my house and across the Clearwater River from my place less than two miles away.

I haven't heard any howling from the house yet, but I'm listening as it won't be long. I'm not elk hunting again this coming fall, but will deer hunt around the area I live in. You ought to see how spooky the elk are in the Clearwater drainage in this country. I can sit on my porch though and hear the coyote's almost every night.

When the wolves were re-introduced into Yellowstone there was an interesting study done on plants on the creek bottoms. Species that had all but disappeared that the elk favored were re-appearing all along the creek bottoms. It seems that the wolves kept the elk so scattered that they weren't gathering and eating those plants that they used to when they could herd up. Were seeing the same thing here on our creek bottoms in our elk country.

As you can probably tell I think the Canadian wolf introduction was a terrible idea and I see no cure for the problem coming along in my lifetime. I know that now were stuck with the problem and costs for control now will fall on the good folks that live here. At least if I'm ever faced with having to shoot one now when I'm out camping it won't be a Federal offense anymore. Folks can at least protect their pets in the woods now where before all you could do was watch the wolves eat Fido.

Bob, but are there any true native western US wolves alive anywhere? What doesnt make sense is before they were wiped out (true native)what kept the Canadian Grey Wolf from coming down to the US western range and taking over the native wolf if they are larger more aggressive and more territorial.? Also the fact that your seeing more bears and cougars in your neighborhood when you havent before doesnt neccesarily mean theres more of them now. It could also mean develeopment and suburban sprawl is encroaching on their food range in other places nearby and so they are wandering out more looking for an easier place to make a living.Unless the biologists take game counts and noted the population rise. Whoever mentioned about NYC having a garbage problem and that bears should be brought back to help clean that up. I have no problem with that! Theres a lot more than trash that needs to be taken away!! We have bamboo growing along our parkways now, eurasian milfoil,and cabomba plants in our lakes and rivers choking fish out,and I think they are getting ready to stock wolves up in the adirondacks mts.

I just want to say that I am always for keeping the balance of everything intact .If these wolves are exotic non native as you say then it is wrong to be stocking them period and it should have been nipped in the bud right from the start. We have our own non native introduction problems here in NY as well and we also had reintroductions that were done well.So you are not alone. Those elk numbers dont sound that bad with 36k out of 125k take per year .But Im not a biologist knowing how many are needed to replenish the herds.

"Nipped in the bud from the start" would have been nice, but none of us here in Idaho had any say in that.

36k elk out of 125k is quite a lot. Consider that F&G are managing elk numbers with hunter harvest, normal mortality, and predator take. When hunter harvest in years past has been between 16k-19.5k, an additional 17k in estimated wolf predation has to be absorbed somewhere. Take that to mean reduced hunter harvest.

Now, my 17k number may be off; I'm going by numbers from studies done in Yellowstone and using the same percentages. Idaho could be very different, but it provides a basis for discussion.

Understand, I do believe that when things are balanced, the wolves will have an overall beneficial effect on our elk herds. For example, cow elk fertility decreases dramatically by age 12-14. If there are a bunch of old cows out there depleting winter range to the detriment of younger fertile cows that would otherwise be giving birth to healthier calves (because they themselves are in better condition), then predators taking out old cows is overall, beneficial. That's assuming that winter ranges are being overgrazed - maybe a false assumption. However, I don't believe there exists this "balance" at this time - there are too many wolves.

There are of course many different factors affecting elk populations. The 1910 and 1927 (?) forest fires that burned millions of acres of Clearwater forest were very beneficial to the elk herds. In the mid 1900's, Idaho had the best elk hunting in the nation due to the overload of browse produced by those forest fires, and that benefit lasted dacades. Now, most forest fires are suppressed, and endless lawsuits by environmentalist organizations blocking logging (almost as beneficial to elk as forest fires) have hindered elk populations in the Clearwater region. Then, our '96/'97 winter killed about 50% of the elk in the Clearwater region, and that on top of some of the highest bear populations ever. And bears are very effective at killing newborn elk calves.

The point to all this? Idaho (and MT and WY) should be able to manage these factors that they can - hunter harvest, and predators - to achieve a balance in elk populations. Especially in areas that are already stressed, like the Clearwater region, predators should be able to be controlled. For 11 years since wolf reintroductions, Idaho's hands have been tied in managing one top predator, the wolf. Delisting is a step in the right direction, but anti-hunting organizations may tie this up in the courts for years.

Bob, but are there any true native western US wolves alive anywhere? What doesnt make sense is before they were wiped out (true native)what kept the Canadian Grey Wolf from coming down to the US western range and taking over the native wolf if they are larger more aggressive and more territorial.?

Also the fact that your seeing more bears and cougars in your neighborhood when you havent before doesnt neccesarily mean theres more of them now. It could also mean develeopment and suburban sprawl is encroaching on their food range in other places nearby and so they are wandering out more looking for an easier place to make a living.Unless the biologists take game counts and noted the population rise.

Whoever mentioned about NYC having a garbage problem and that bears should be brought back to help clean that up. I have no problem with that! Theres a lot more than trash that needs to be taken away!! We have bamboo growing along our parkways now, eurasian milfoil,and cabomba plants in our lakes and rivers choking fish out,and I think they are getting ready to stock wolves up in the adirondacks mts.

CV We've always had a small native population of wolves and even a few grizzly bears in our back country, I've seen several when I was younger and back packing. Certainly more folks building out of town is happening and that can account for increased sightings, but I've lived here all my life and I'm 61 years old now and both friends and I am seeing more than we used to.

I've lived thru the "good elk hunting times" and so has Shawn so we know what really good elk hunting is. I've hunted bears in this area for lots of years and there just seems to be more than there were ten or fifteen years ago and so our Fish and Game seems to thing so to so that it's increased the take limits to two bears a year in certain areas. Up to five years ago I'd only seen three cougars out in the wild and now I'm seeing them on a monthly basis.

Basically I'm a hunter and as a hunter I was very pleased at the elk status quo before the wolf introduction, but then as a back country hunter and fisherman and backpacker I didn't like the idea of the Forest service dumping the Yellowstone Grizzly's into Idaho either, again something the folks living here had no choice about. Add to that the devistating winterkill that Shawn was talking about and it's made elk population recovery a very dicey thing.

Anyway lots of folks that live here used to talk about SSS (Shoot, Shovel and Shut up) though most of it was just talk. At least being able to protect your pets when you have them in the woods and being able to buy a tag and feel like your helping the elk by legally harvesting wolves will be a help.

While this was all going on CV one our our Idaho jokes was thay should stock those wolves in Washington, but they would starve to death there as there are no poop eating wolves around.

As you can see this is a pretty hot subject out here and lots of folks are really passionate about this problem and rightly so I believe.

Well, I know the English Sparrow and European starling was an unwelcomed accident introduced bird that has created problems for our native songbirds.Did you know the Starlings can kill wood peckers? I shoot as many of them as I can and they have no protection either. If I see any coyotes here in NY I will shoot them fast. I suggest you do this too then. Sorry if I came off too "Eastern like" ! On those Elk numbers and tag costs maybe they wont raise the fees.Who knows maybe they want a smaller herd anyway for a while.

I think the release of bears in New York would be a great thing. Goes right along the release of wolves. I don't think they should be only black bears though as someone suggested. I think the grizz would do well there. Maybe a couple thousand mating pairs with full protection so that if anyone harms one, they will go to prison. I mean, it's my country too.

Maybe a couple thousand mating pairs...

that's funny.

Being an easterner all my life, and hunting throughout New England, and NY for close to 33 years now, this statement amuses me. While the habitat could surely support the bear, a couple of thousand pairs would just end up mixing with man and losing. All of the NE states have too much population, compared to the great wilds of Wyoming, Montana, and other western states.

Introducing that many bears, or any other species, in a man-managed system, would be a recipe for disaster.

Minnesota has over 3200 Timber Wolves by itself,Wisconsin has between 300-400 Wolves and Michigan has but 200 total.

Over here we have whitetail population densities of 20 to 43 deer sq/mi.
We have large expanses of timber/low country with low human population density and huge populations of beaver too(favorite wolf/bear chow).

George

At last cencus, NJ has/had over 6 million deer!!!!:eek:

For the Wooded, NON populated areas, that is darn certainly overcrowding.

The coyote population is just now on the rise here, but there is very little other predation on the NJ deer.

Why don't we just introduce the grizz here in NJ too, with a human population of 8,724,560 according to the 2006 cencus, and households of 3,472,643. Bet the darn bears would feel overcrowded, and want out.

Take into account that number, when the entire US population was 299,398,484 in 2006.

The Northeast is the most densely populated area of the country, and unfortunately, the wildlife looses. Fair, no, but that's the way it is. I do not like it, but for as much as I contribute to conservation, or assist, it will not mean a single drop in a bucket when dealing with development.

Me personally, I'd rather have wildlife than all these people, and the problems that go along with them.

Nuff said bout that.:mad:

Introduce enough griz to the area, Chris, and you will soon have your population density down to a managable level!!! :p.

At last cencus, NJ has/had over 6 million deer!!!!:eek:

For the Wooded, NON populated areas, that is darn certainly overcrowding.

The coyote population is just now on the rise here, but there is very little other predation on the NJ deer.

Why don't we just introduce the grizz here in NJ too, with a human population of 8,724,560 according to the 2006 cencus, and households of 3,472,643. Bet the darn bears would feel overcrowded, and want out.

Take into account that number, when the entire US population was 299,398,484 in 2006.

The Northeast is the most densely populated area of the country, and unfortunately, the wildlife looses. Fair, no, but that's the way it is. I do not like it, but for as much as I contribute to conservation, or assist, it will not mean a single drop in a bucket when dealing with development.

Me personally, I'd rather have wildlife than all these people, and the problems that go along with them.

Nuff said bout that.:mad:




6-million whitetail deer in the Garden State???????

The NJ DNR lists that before the 2006 hunting season the states whitetail population was beneath 150,000 deer.

http://www.nj.gov/dep/dsr/trends2005/pdfs/wildlife-whitetail.pdf

Number of White-tailed Deer per Thousand Humans (source: Insurance Information Institute, State Wildlife Agencies, US Census Bureau)


Miss 657
W Va 500
Mont 436
Wisc 346
S Car 285
Vt 283
Maine 268
La 236
Texas 234
Minn 219
SD 219
Mich 193
Ky 187
Tenn 184
Kan 181
MO 175
Va 161
Neb 158
Ga 154
NC 143
Iowa 126
PA 17
NH 72
Ill 65
Fla 58
NY 55
Md 47
Del 45
Ohio 44
NJ 23
Conn 23
Mass 12
TI 12

ADAM NOTE: The reason NY and NJ come out so low is that both states have large urban city populations. The suburbs of NY and NJ are among the most deer-dense in the nation.

George

Shawn mentioned forest fires, which I did not. I mentioned logging, which Shawn did not. Both helped elk populations expand. Last year, we had just over 1,000 wild fires in Idaho; my end, our mildest in years. I tell friends we have two seasons: snow and fire.

Farmland, in the east, was created by clearing forest. In Idaho, it was created by pumping irrigation water from the aquifer and planting trees to change desert into farmland. We have artificially created more of our environment than in the east; only ours looks pretty and supports life. Elk require certain habitat, bear another, deer a different preference. We can create those habitats by logging (finally learned what produces what results where) and reduce our fire hazard. Ain’t much we can do about drought, severe Winter, etc., but we can control some things. Coastal “Greens” have pretty much shut down logging, and dictated what species we can and cannot have out here. People on the coasts have pretty well made a mess of their areas. Now they want to destroy ours.

We do have cougars in town; also deer, moose, coyotes, bob cats, black bears, eagles and now elk. And some towns have wolves coming in. Picture a pack of wolves coming into your back yard during the day, with your children, or checking out the school playground. Don’t picture shooting at them, though.

Grizzly bears don’t belong back east, anymore than Canadian wolves belong here. New England is NOT large enough to support 1,000 grizzly bears, year in and year out, even if it had no people. Problem is that bears are primarily herbivores, hunt in opportunity and desperation. Their mainstays fail every 4 or 5 years, sending desperate bears out to other areas. Part of my tong-in-check NYC - black bear suggestion is that human garbage seems a relatively constant food source for bears. I’d like to see our area open garbage dumps to bears in years when their preferred foods fail. It would save lives, human and bear.

I’m feeling like a Southerner of 160 years ago; facing a war of coastal aggression.

don't believe a DNR report, and I'll try to remember where I saw my source, and post it, but we are overrun 11B3V.

New Jersey is roughly 70miles x 150miles.
The state is listed at 8,729 square/miles.


150,000 whitetail divided by 8,729 square/miles gives 17.18deer per square/mile.
6,000,000 deer divided by 8,729 square/miles gives 687.36deer per square/mile.

Not enough forage to sustain that number of deer in such a small state.

St. Louis county,MN has a total area of 6,860 sq/mi with 6,225 sq/miles of land and 635 sq/miles of water.

George

funny with his grizzly suggestion here in NY. The Grizz was never native to the east and so they dont belong here .But they do belong west of the Mississippi ---so deal with it dude.

Well time to go to a different subject, this one seems to have worn out. Thread locked.