I have seen other threads discussing OVL and placing the bullet a certain distance from the lands. I have searched the threads and have not found anything where measuring this is possible without purchasing a special tool. I am about to start handloading for my 22-250 and wondered if anyone has a way of measuring this, and if I start playing around with OVL; will I get into any problems without knowing exactly when my bullet hits the lands? I would appreciate any advice on this.

Thanks,
Doc "Zero"

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/6_steps_great_handloads/index1.html

Most rifles will "prefer" to have bullets a certain distance off the lands for best accuracy. Surprisingly, though, the exact number of that distance isn't important to know - as long as you can seat the bullet to that gun's best "off lands" distance, it doesn't matter if you know where the lands are or what that exact distance measurement is.

Here's how I do it.

For a new gun, I start loading my chosen bullet at the reloading manual (SAAMI) maximum overall length, or the maximum length that will feed through the action, whichever is longer. I work up the best powder and charge combo I can find at that length.

Now, I'll determine if a deeper seating depth might be an improvement. I seat the same bullet over the same charge, but seat it a tiny bit deeper each time. I'll either turn in the seating stem a bit at a time (a quarter-turn) or use increments of .010" measured by a micrometer seating stem or by measuring the stem extension with a caliper. If I see a definite improvement at a given seating depth, I may try two "tweak" depths at .005" either side of that depth.

FINALLY, I'll find out just where that depth is. To do so, I scribe a mark on the bullet at bore diameter. This is NOT at groove depth, but at land-land distance, which is the nominal bore diameter. Examples would be at .220" for a .22-caliber, .250" for a .25-caliber, .300" for a .30-caliber and so forth.

I set my calipers at the desired point (example .250") and lock the jaws, then lightly spin the bullet between the sharp part of the jaws. The result will be a marked bullet, as shown:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c170/RockyRaab/offland.jpg
http://www.shootersforum.com/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c170/RockyRaab/offland.jpg%5B/IMG%5D
Now measure from that line to the base of the loaded cartridge. This is your optimum "Base to Bore" dimension for that rifle. It will be valid for almost ANY bullet, no matter what nose profile. If you change bullets, simply mark the new bullet with the same scribed line, using your calipers, and seat it to the same Base to Bore distance. The new bullet will then be the same "off lands" distance as your first bullet.

Do check that any new bullet still fits the magazine and feeds. And do record your best "Base to Bore" measurement for that gun. That's it.

Thanks Rocky, I have been trying to figure out how to do that easily. Your method is as simple as it gets.

It's tough to get folks to understand sometimes that it truly does not matter if the best off-lands distance is .001" or .100" - nor that you even know - as long as you can load ammo that places the bullet in the same place every time.

That's a great explanation Rocky, and happy birthday to you also. One of the problems most of us run into with magazine fed rifles is magazine length can often keep us from seating bullets to the optimum accuracy distance from the lands. In that case you can single load to do so, but most of us just make due.

Keep in mind when seating bullets the basic rule is one caliber deep.

That's a good point to make. The only reason to know the absolute numbers is for portability between dies and presses or to return a changed set of die positions after loading for different guns of the same caliber.

I'll toss in that I try to work with a modest pressure load to find seating depth because inserting a bullet deeper in a case increases pressure. I want some headroom there. Also, I usually find a couple of optimal seating depths, one near the lands and one when the bullet is around 1 caliber into the case mouth, but YMMV.

For rimless bottleneck cases headspacing off the shoulder, best consistency comes from measuring seating depth between the bullet ogive and the case shoulder rather than from ogive to casehead, and that takes a tool to determine. A case that hasn't been annealed for awhile will usually spring back a little after sizing, and will therefore come out a bit longer than a newer one. As a result, the neck and bullet won't go as far toward the throat on firing, even though the measurement between the ogive and the casehead matches that for a cartridge with newer case. I've seen five thousandths difference in resized .30-06 cases with different load histories. This matters mostly for people seating very close to the lands, but is not so significant for a seating depth sweet spot back nearer to the magazine length, as Rocky describes. That usually less sensitive.

Thanks guys once again for the information and tips; I'm sure I will have a lot of questions as I begin my journey down the road of handloading.

Doc "Zero"

For what its worth, my 22-250 likes 10-15 thou off the lands.

I made a dummy round with a slightly necked case and I seated a bullet in there enough for it to hold. Then I ran it carefully through the chamber. I made sure the neck tension was loose enough so when the bullet touched the rifing, the bullet was seated back further to a point where it was at the point of contact with the rifling. A quick measure with my verniers, then back in the seating die to make it that 10-15 thou shorter. Then i make another dummy round up with plenty of neck tension to seat the bullet at that same depth. It wont budge. Now thats my dummy round, I reset me seating die to suit it every time so I know its right. It might pay to make a couple of initial dummy rounds to make sure nothing went wrong with one of them.

Now my 55gr vmax load has a COL of 2.496" and best of all it takes headshots at foxes at 200 yards. Plenty accurate enough for me. And compared to before, Im not getting pressure spikes, as I used to have the bullet seated 20 thou ONTO the lands. Verniers are a handloaders best friend.

I use a tool consisting of a brass rod and two aluminum stop collars, all can be had for under $10.00 at a good hardware store. You could also use a cleaning rod if you thread a jag with the point filed off so you have a flat surface. With both collars on the rod against the end of the barrel, and the bolt closed push the rod against the bolt and tighten the top stop collar. Remove the bolt, put a bullet (bullet not loaded round) in the chamber and hold it against the lands with a cleaning rod while you push the brass rod against the nose of the bullet and tighten the lower stop collar. OAL for that cartridge/bullet combo with be the distance between the INSIDE of the two stop collars. Once you know your OAL you can start experimenting as every gun is different. Frankford Arsenal makes a tool similar to this made out of plastic http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=190644&t=11082005 but personally I feel using the aluminum stop collars is more accurate.
I have found that most 22-250's seem to like a little bit of jump (.010-.020) rather than being against the lands.

bsn

Do you have any pictures of your method?

My method :

Seat a bullet in case to Maximum Overall Length as specified in manuals
Chamber round regardless of how much force it takes(bolt actions only)
This seats bullets to lands.( in safe place,please)
Remove, measure length, record data for this particular bullet.

Now just a matter of adjusting seater die in small increments until bullets seats at an exact distance from lands that you want. No guessing at all,precise.

:)OldManSedgwick:)

bsn

I looked at the link you provided, thanks.

After studying that set up it occurred to me if the stop at the furthest end of the barrel had a hole the same diameter as the bore of the barrel you could measure the exact seating depth distance where the bulet contacted the lands. That would make the tool unique to one specific caliber but there wouldn't be any uncertainty associated with non uniform bullet tips. Probably not a big deal with plastic tip bullets but lead tip bullets can have quite a difference in length.

Thanks for sharing. Now you have me thinking how to rig one up. The explanation in the product description said it works for most bolt action rifles but I don't see why it wouldn't work for my Ruger #1 or my lever gun.

As long as it's kosher to point out shortcomings . . .

All "rod down the barrel" methods only measure to the point of the bullet, which varies quite a bit even in the same box of bullets - and the point of the bullet never touches the lands, besides.

All slip-fit bullets chambered by the action actually jam the bullets into the lands, not just to touch. Some of them are also pulled back out slightly when extracted, but no two attempts are ever alike.

None of the measure and set methods account for firing pin strike. If the firing pin drives the round forward prior to ignition (and ALL guns do) what happens to your carefully measured "off lands" distance? Ditto for case sizing/headspace.

Trying to measure to the lands is both difficult and futile. The simplest and most effective method is to allow the gun to tell you its most accurate seating depth, and then repeat that depth with all bullets. The Base to Bore method does that, and is determined by actual accuracy results, NOT by some arbitrary and impossible to duplicate measurement between bullet and lands. B to B is self-compensating for firing pin strike, headspace and case sizing issues because it is determined based on what happens AFTER ignition, not before.

Make sense? AND, it requires no special tools, only a caliper. It is what engineers call "elegant" because it is as simple as possible yet accounts for as many difficulties as possible.

This is the best I could do.

Part
2 of pics

Rocky,

Your method started at max COL for a given bullet and worked to shorter distances. What if you needed to go longer than max COL for a single shot for example?

You are correct about bullets out of the same box often having a slightly different length. To get around that I make a dummy cartridge using the same bullet that I got my OAL and use the dummy to set up the seating die. Since the cartridge length is max OAL I have an ending point and work back from there in .010 increments, measured off the seating die and fine tune from there until I get the sweet spot. The seating die contacts the bullet at the ogive so your bullets will be a uniform distance from the lands even if there is a slight difference in length. The above 25 WSSM in 75 gr Vmax has a listed COL of 2.350" (Hodgen reloading) but in this case the actual is 2.374" (Winchester Stealth) and on another 25 WSSM (Winchester Coyote) I have its quite a bit longer.

I end up with a dummy round too and I'm sure a lot of handloaders do. Once the seating depth is tweaked to where I like it I make the dummy. It makes it real easy to set up the seat die.

Going longer is exactly the same. You simply seat progressively longer until you find a sweet spot, then measure that B to B distance. The semi-rule about one caliber deep still applies, generally.

Dummy rounds are only good for bullets of the same ogive and tip profile, but won't be accurate for any other.

I make a dummy round up for each bullet type and rifle, makes setting your seating die up a breeze when you have multiple rifles in the same caliber.

Sinclair also makes a version of this tool, but note what Rocky said about bullet tips not all being in the same place with respect to the ogive. The only measuring tools that stand much of a chance of working well are those that measure off the ogive. The most consistent of these, IMHO, is the Sinclair variation (http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=09-1000&type=store) of the Stoney Point (now Hornady) caliper adapter. This is because its stainless steel inserts (http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=09-0XXX&type=store) are cut with a chambering reamer to ensure they will touch down on the bullet in like manner to an actual throat. It's a bit of bother. Sinclair also sells a version of the collar tool (http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=59-4000&type=store), by the way.

Here's the measuring problem I referred to earlier and that Rocky mentioned. The firing pin shoves the cartridge forward against the headspace determinant before enough powder burns for pressure to swell the case into the chamber and stick into place. The base or face of the casehead is not the headspace determinate. The rim, belt, or shoulder are. If you are a benchrest shooter, using only fireformed and neck-sized-only cases, then there is no significant wiggle room in the chamber, and the firing pin won't move the cartrige forward any significant distance on firing. In that case, measuring seating depth from the base to the bullet ogive works fine, and the benchrest guys will do this on every loaded cartridge, even if they leave their seating die adjustment alone. They want to check that variance in ogive profile doesn't cause the seater to put the bullets in at slightly different depths. 'Slightly' is the keyword there, but the BR guys are picky, picky, picky.

When you full-length resize, you create wiggle room in the chamber. At that point you have to switch to measuring from the headspace determinate to the bullet ogive to indicate ogive to land distance. Cases headspacing on their rims or belts should be pretty consistent in the wiggle room they allow, so base-to-ogive measuring should still be pretty consistent for them. Cases headspacing off their shoulder are more problematic. Resizing results in some variance in the distance from the base to the shoulder, and I have found several thousandths typical of cases with mixed load histories. The Redding Instant Indicator (http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/rickjamison.html) is the only tool on the commercial market I am aware of that measures the shoulder-to-ogive depth. I made one of these for myself about three years before Redding came out with theirs. My design lets me change chambering with two small parts. I don't know if Redding's does? I have a picture of mine below, too.

The exaggerated illustrations show how variation in the sizing difference distance results in the bullet distance off the lands changing even though the base-to-ogive measurement is the same.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8477/1eaggeratedcasesizingdilo5.gif

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1162/2bulletofflandsdifferenxd6.gif

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4158/3seatingdepthgauge2withak4.jpg

I just wanted to say; this is whats great about this forum. You can hear everyone's opinions and techniques they use. You can never go wrong with an open conversation of ideas; what ever the topic. I can not wait to start trying some of your ideas and see which one works best for myself. I'm a very much a person of detail and hope I may be able to contribute to these discussions with time. I actually look more forward to the experimentation with the minute tolerances contained in handloading as I do in the actual shooting. Although I love to shoot, I am not a lead slinger; I can spend about an hour firing only five rounds. I am already finding amazing accuracy out of my Shilen barrel with factory rounds and can only dream of what I will get out of it with precise handloads. When I get the rifle and load tuned in I will post my results.

Thanks,
Doc "Zero"

I had another question; will max COL change with different bullets? I have measured from the ogive of my factory rounds to the base; I then set me a dummy round with 55gr. V-max with the plastic tips with the same ogive to base measurement. The problem is that this leaves this round longer than the max COL for the 22-250. Does the plastic tip of the V-max throw off the COL? Will seating these deeper in the case to max COL create greater pressures? I wanted to find out before I load a few of these; the longer COL cycles fine in my bolt action with no added pressure on the bolt.

Thanks,
Doc "Zero"

Doc,

Maximum COL is a SAMMI specification agreed to by gun manufacturers to be adhered to for the purpose of guaranteeing fit and feed in magazines. Nothing else. Certainly it has no bearing on the different chamber throat lengths available in going from standard to match to military reamer profiles. When you fix seating depth by measuring from the ogive, you are controlling bullet jump to the lands. The former affects feed functioning from a magazine, the latter affects accuracy. Some people use a separate (not maximum) COL as an indirect means of controlling the ogive to land jump, working on the assumption that the bullet nose-to-ogive distance will match from bullet to bullet. In some bullet shapes it does that pretty well, in others it doesn't do so well, so it is not as precise as making an ogive measurement directly. Neither is as precise as measuring from the ogive to the headspace determining contact surface on the case.

So, the answer to your question is, no. Maximum COL does not change with bullets, since it is a fixed specification. Some bullets are too short to reach the maximum COL spec and still be seated. These need to be seated shorter than maximum, and that's OK. If you are using COL as an indirect means of trying to control ogive to throat lead jump, then, yes, that COL will change with bullet ogive profile.

Nick is correct. The short version of what he said, for clarity: If your base to ogive distance is set, and the overall cartridge length still fits and feeds, you are fine.

SAAMI maximum OAL is (as mentioned) a magazine-length number. No guns should have magazines shorter than that number, and most magazines are longer. The longer ones will allow a larger OAL. Yours, for example.

Thanks guys for the good answers; thats what I wanted to hear. I have set this savage I built up to more like a benchrest style rifle. I machined an aluminum follower to fit in my current magazine, so it is for now a single shot. I don't want even the temptation of getting my new shilen barrel hot. So magazine feed is not really an issue, but I still feel pretty comfortable with my COL, and I will be starting at the lower end of the charge scale for my bullets. I'm sure I will have some other questions as I go. I just want to keep everything within a safe level.

Thanks,
Doc "Zero"

Doc,

You may want to borrow or buy a copy of the January issue of Precision Shooting. M.L. McPherson had an article on bedding and other issues with the Savage actions and some approaches to improving on it. I've had good luck with the V-block approach used in Choate stocks, and have my 10FP in a Choate Ultimate Varmint stock, currently. I hate its cheek pieces, and modified that, but the stock holds the action very successfully.

Thanks Nick, I have this savage in a laminate monty carlo stock that is glass bedded at the rear of the reciever and at the recoil lug/locking nut; with the barrel free floated. It seems to be a pretty solid platform. I will see if I can find a copy of that issue; I can use any improvments. I currently have the factory trigger assembly on the action, and with it set at its lightest is pretty crisp. I will probably work it a little and get it a little lighter, but right now I'm pretty happy with it. I'm sure it won't be long and I will want to upgrade to a good thumb hole stock and aftermarket trigger. I have to admit with the beautiful multicolor laminate stock and SS barrel it is a very nice looking rig. Now all I need is the weather to cooperate and I will be happy.

Thanks,
Doc

DZ - I think you said you had a 22-250. What kind of scope did you put on it? Post a pic if you get a chance.

At the moment I have a 6X24(44mm) platinum from BSA on it; this is a very inexpensive scope ($120) compaired to some of the better optics, but I have been pretty impressed with its quality so far. As I go I plan on investing in a higher quality scope. I have better scopes but they are all fixed power scopes and was to scared to order an expensive variable until I decided thats what I wanted. My wife has a good digital camera and I'm going to take some pictures and try to get them on here, a lot of people on here has helped me get this thing together by answering my questions. I have a post about it in the gunsmithing section under rebarreling a savage.

Thanks,
Doc "Zero"

Rocky's right about the variation in lengths of bullets. Either hp's or spitzers with lead tips do vary in length. I like to use a little gizmo that attatches to the calipers to measure bullet seating depth. These are called "comparators" I believe. Mine are Davidson Seating Depth Checkers. I got mine from Sinclair. They allow measurement from the head stamp to bore diameter on the bullet ogive. Once you have that measurement, you can use it for different bullets in that calibre that may have different contours.

Warren Page in his book THE ACCURATE RIFLE said that most of his rifles liked about .010" off of the "jam length". That being the length with bullet ogive jammed into the rifling lands with bolt. For me that puts the bullet ogive just a hair off of or slightly touching the lands. That's what works for me.

Rev

Rev,
Yeah, I've noticed the difference in lengths of bullets; even with bullets from the same box. I have been using my calipers set at .220 and marking the ogive for each bullet, and measuring from there to the base. I have checked on one of the "comparators" and plan on buying one, because it is very difficult to get an accurate measurment trying to hold it on the line I've marked. I've found alot of things that I need or want for my reloading, but I'm sure that will never end as long as I'm reloading.

Doc

The marked line on the bullet works fine, Doc. Scribe the line just a bit deeper by holding the bullet into the caliper jaws (which are locked) and spin the bullet. That will create a microscopic ledge in the jacket. Then when you measure, hold the bottom jaw against the case head and slide the top caliper jaw slowly down the bullet until you feel that ledge. A comparator is great if you buy one for every caliber you shoot, but your calipers alone work for all of them.

Rev,

You might want to look at adjusting that seating depth to find a sweet spot? I just got done helping someone do that via PM's. We found that nearer to 0.020" short of the "jam length" gave the tightest groups in his gun. It varies with the gun.

I like that Davidson shell base restraint to guarantee casehead location repeatability on the caliper jaw. I use it with the new green Sinclair comparator whose stainless caliber inserts are cut with chamber reamers so they actually find the right spot on the ogive. Rocky's line works, but he still has 20/20 vision, and I find I'm using magnifiers and worrying about parallax when eyeballing measurements these days, so I just get a comfy feeling letting the instrument do it. Besides, I like toys, and since I mainly load .224, .264, .308, and .458 diameter bullets for rifle these days, I didn't find buying 4 inserts a terrible burden.

Grinning behind my reading glasses here, nick! Those are good tools, though.

Thanks Rocky,
I'll try getting the ogive line a little deeper; I was a little worried about digging in to deep on the bullet, but I guess it won't affect accuracy. I still can see up close pretty good; I guess I'll keep doing it this way until I feel I can't get a good measurement. I only load a small number of rounds at a time so this method works good for me, but I can see where loading alot of rounds this way would be very time consuming. Even after setting the die; I still check each round.

Doc