My dad and i recently got into reloading also known as the most addicitng thing ever!!!! Crack and heroin pale in comparison.;) We have a few reloading manuels and we are reloading 30-06, 300 winny mag, 257 weatherby mag, and 7mm remington mag, we will also start handguns and 30-30 soon. Most of the recipes we have found call for federal primers. We have searched high and low and can't find them anywhere. Everywhere says no backorder out of stock or something to that affect. My question is where have they all gone? Are they not produced anymore? Just want to see if you guys know anything about this

federal is the only manufacturer of ammo for our military.
cci and federal are now the same company, however not the same primers as they are made in different locations.
i would follow the loads and use winchester,or whatever you can find, start at the low end of the books
reccomendations and work up.
watch your pressure signs,you will be okay

I use Federal and CCI primers interchangeably and never have had any problems. My loads are not ever on the ragged of edge of safety where a primer change would be dangerous. My .02

Where in Georgia are you? I might can tell you where to go buy them locally.

i agree with KenK. federal and CCI primers seem to be very similar. winchester primers burn hotter than either so i wouldn't interchange.

Remington is closer to Federal in strength, though less sensitive. Some good things are being said about PMC primers.

Can't believe Lake City and the other contractors aren't supplying military ammo? Or maybe Fivedog meant only small arms primers? CCI makes full mil spec versions of their #41 and #34 military hardness primers, I know. I am unaware of Federal being tooled for those? Certainly the Federal primers I have are way too sensitive for military applications, though they could retool for the purpose, obviously.

I saw a few Federal primers at Gander Mountain a couple of weeks ago. None that I needed, but they were there. The store was reworking all its displays and most of its stuff was depleted (year-end inventory tax avoidance-common in stores). I've heard the big crunch from the quadruple normal size military order last year is coming to an end and that things should be back in supply this year. PM Rocky and ask him if he's got any inside poop from the manufacturers on that?

No PM needed. The crunch is indeed tailing off and most manufacturers are beginning to devote at least some production time to civilian products. I've even seen some newly packaged Federal primers on the shelf recently. A trickle, but at least the pipe isn't dry.

You can credit the former Mr Bill Presidency for the crunch. He not only cut the military budgets so much they couldn't order ammo, but he closed all but one government ammo plant.

We reloaders may in fact be the only reason there is ANY ammunition-making capacity in this country. If we weren't buying it, even the civilian plants would have closed. Think about that and you'll realize that the 2nd Amendment has MUCH further reach than even the right to own arms. We gun owners are keeping an entire industry alive - and that industry is essential to the national defense!

I have couple boxes of Federal 210 and everybody that comes by wants them, best I remember before this shortage, some of the same people said that they didn't like Feds.

A few months ago I could not get any Federal's for my 9mm. I was told the CCI's were interchangeable. For just practice loads, that has been true. 2 weeks ago I picked up a few thousand large and small pistol Federal primers. They were spotty in the market but seem to be getting more plentiful now. However, if you like them and see them, buy a few extra assuming a lean cycle again.

with lee auto prime federals have been known toexplode

Puhleeze. I've never loaded anything but Feds except in my .45 Autos, and never in anything but a Lee Autoprime.

Check Wideners, they had plenty last I checked.

Lee does publish a warning about using the Autoprime with Federal primers, claiming the tray can go off.

Well, maybe.

If you follow the rule to wear safety glasses, you should make it through that sort of event. I know I put plenty of Federals through my Autoprime before I had progressive presses. The only gripe I have about the tool is it doesn't square the shell holder to the primer ram very precisely, so a slight semi-circular ram indentation appears on one side of each primer. That might pop a Federal, eventually, if I put enough through it? It just hasn't happened to me. Lee's warning is that Federal's are sensitive enough that one going off in the case can start a chain reaction that sets off the rest in the tray. I presume they tried it, but don't know how much effort it took to bring about? These days I use my Markel tool for single priming. Sit if front of the TV with it. It has a coaxial sleeve that forces proper alignment, but then, it doesn't have a tray, either.

A friend of mine had one of the old Lee Loader shotshell versions. I recall him setting off maybe half a dozen primers an evening while loading shotshells with it. His fingers started to look a little charred, though it might have been graphite from the powder? Too long ago to remember. You used a mallet to seat the primers in those tools, IIRC?

Every Sportsman's Warehouse I've been in lately has had Federal primers. As for them not workng in Lee's Autoprime? News to me. I've been using them in my Autoprime for tha last 15 years with no malfunctions or mishaps. Am I lucky? No. Am I careful? Yes. I only put 10 in at a time of any manufacturer's primer. Overkill? Maybe.

RJ

oh ok thanks guys actually i did get some federal primers from my grandpa who recently gave us all his old reloading gear and supplies i loaded some up and just primed over fifty cases today with um they still work but we do have 2000 cci large rifle primers and only a few hundred federals they will run dry in a week or so. Also thanks for the tip about the lee auto prime because that was what we are using i always have seeing glasses on when i reload but maybe i should put in my contacts and get some good safety glasses i would feel much safer. Thanks again for all the info.

Studlysmurf

Federal and CCI are both owned by ATK, there's no reason they aren't interchangeable.

I've seen all the primer manufacturers available at most of my favorite stores recently. I'm only using Remington primers now though, trying to clear out my CCI supply.

yeah thats what i had thought

were i work at we just got a shipment of federal primers 210's and 215s haven't had any before that in like 3 months still trying to wait and see if we get any 205's. Federal primers have been all i have been using for the past 10 years.

Federals are what most bench resters use. They seat easier for me and that's also why I prefer them. I've never in 50 yrs. had any primer go off when it wasn't supposed to. Maybe just lucky, but I deprime live primers with impunity and have never even had one fire.

Rev

Try prying one that went in backwards out. Wear safety glasses if you do though.

Here's the skinny. There are two types of priming compound in use. (They're called, IIRC, standard and basic) All US primer makers except Federal use one, and Federal uses the other. There are certain advantages to the type Federal uses, but one DISadvantage is that it makes the primers more susceptible to fratricide - meaning if one goes off for any reason, any other primer nearby will also go off.

It's the nearness factor that comes into play in hand priming units like the Lee Auto-Prime and other similar tray or tube devices. If you've noticed, Federal primers come packaged differently than others. Federal primers are spaced apart in individual compartments, not touching. That's because of that fratricide thing: DOT shipping rules require packaging designed to prevent fratricide.

There's little or no other difference a reloader might notice. Federals aren't any more sensitive to firing pin strike, nor "hotter" nor more liable to accidental firing. BUT, if you have them touching and one DOES go off, they all will.

Federals aren't any more sensitive to firing pin strike. . .

I'm surprised to hear you say that. Federal primers seem to "cure" guns with marginal firing pin strike, though that need not be due to the nature of the priming mix. It could be due to smaller cup diameter or cup thickness that allows easier insertion to touch down on the bottom of the primer pocket or allows easier firing pin indentation. However, if there were no sensitivity or ignition advantage, why does Federal mess with something more difficult to package and ship?

I'm guessing the fratricide sensitivity means the mix has higher brissance that creates a sharper shock wave than the other mix does. It is possible some powders might prove to like that better than others? It's hard to test, since you can't really tell whether ignition effect variance between primer brands was caused by different brissance, flame duration, or primer charge variance? Ignition sensitivity difference could be ruled out by using different guns or different firing pin springs in the testing. Be an interesting study, but a pain to design. Not worth the bother, from a practical standpoint, since you still end up comparing different brands to find the best performer in each of your guns. No free lunch there.

I think that if there is a firing pin sensitivity difference, it likely is due to cup hardness or thickness, as you say. There also MIGHT be a difference due to the priming compound, but I frankly don't know. I have an email request in to Federal to ask just that kind of question, as luck would have it. (The Lee Auto-Prime issue is also being discussed on at least one other board, and I'm posting on both.)

My guess on why Federal uses the oddball compound is that they think it is more consistent from shot to shot, but I'm just guessing on that based on Federal primers being generally thought of as extremely consistent.

. . . If you've noticed, Federal primers come packaged differently than others. Federal primers are spaced apart in individual compartments, not touching. . .
I'm surprised to hear you say that.:D Winchester primers come "spaced apart in individual compartments, not touching" or at least the sleeve of primers that I bought came that way. So now it's Federal and Winchester primers come packaged differently than others and there may be more.

Indeed, for all the reasons noted, I use only Feds except in my .45's for some reason. Have a lot of Win's I guess. They always go off, they seat well, are consistent...not much more to say. I think any primer that gets hung up in a handprimer could go, but that's the point of the handprimer, you can feel it. So when it's not right, stop.

Federal and CCI are both owned by ATK, there's no reason they aren't interchangeable.

I've seen all the primer manufacturers available at most of my favorite stores recently. I'm only using Remington primers now though, trying to clear out my CCI supply.

C.C.I. and Federal are owned by ATK, the primers are not interchangeable they are two seperate products manufactured in different facilities.

Right-O, 762

Differemt companies, different compounds, different primers. Don't know what the brisance factor is for the two, but bet they are not the same.

I had a CCI tech tell me they were... i'll see if I can find the email.

Well, if nothing else, Federal puts that pretty purple coloring in their's.

I have never been able to tell any difference in results between Federal and CCI. To be clear though, I don't think any of my loads are close enough to the "danger zone" that a primer change would make the difference and I don't have any super accurate rifles.

I do dislike the Federal box, all else being equal that makes me buy CCI when they are available.

Agree, KenK -

As much as I like Fed primers, they are a PITA when it comes to bulk packaging.

Have used CCI's most of my reloading life and never had a problem with them, especially the benchrest primers. Always reserved the Federal's for the big boomers.

I can't find the email... it was the same one that said they would have .204" bullets soon, over a year ago.

Got e reply, and they confirm what I said above...

Dear Rocky,

Thanks for your inquiry. Federal uses only basic lead styphnate. All other manufacturers use normal lead styphnate. The difference between the two forms is the pH (basic vs. neutral) at which the crystals are formed, the molecular makeup, and final crystal morph.

Federal primers are within SAAMI sensitivity guidelines. Therefore, ANY handloader priming unit that does not include ALL SAAMI compliant primers is not recommended for any primers. The term "fratricide" implies intentional injury. I would not associate this term with any handloading product.

It is true that the Federal packaging is for DOT compliance. Specifically it is for the DOT-6C burn test compliance. All primer manufacturers use package spacing to comply with DOT sympathetic detonation requirements. Federal primers are known for being the best igniters in the industry. This is because they produce the highest level of hot particulate with the lowest gaseous overpressure, at the slowest rate.

Sincerely,
Federal Communications Team

as for LEE vs. Federal...
I seem to remember a feud between the two companys for some reason and thats why LEE will not reccomend them. Not trying to start a rumor, just relying on my 52 year old memory banks.:confused:

they produce the highest level of hot particulate
with the lowest gasseous overpressure
at the slowest rate.
what?
what are they fastest at?

does this mean they spit more ignition matter out, without the gas, but they do it real slow.

Means just what it says: the most hot particulates, at the lowest pressure, for the longest time.

They don't claim to be "fastest" at anything. Nor is "fastness" of any matter nor worth in primers.

The hot particulate matter is what lights the powder, kind of like thousands of little glowing embers. Think matchlock thousands of times over. That the Federal product produces the most such ignition material at the lowest pressure suggests it makes the least addition to the pressure created by the powder. That is considered desirable for accuracy by benchresters, who want the powder they measure out to control the pressure as closely as possible. That the flame has long endurance means a stubborn powder should have plenty of time to get going. It's sort of like leaving the glowplug heat on a little longer in a diesel. You may not need it all, but it is there.

The low pressure and long endurance suggest the lowest brissance, contrary to what the Lee warning made me think originally. Instead, if there is any truth to the idea of "inadvertent fratricide", which is, as Federal suggests, an oxymoron, then it will likely be the long enduring shower of hot particles that sets adjacent primers off, and not detonation shock. Off course, it it turns out it is all speculative nonsense, which may also be the case, then it wouldn't be the first time. Such positions are often taken when dubious liability concerns arise.

i just kinda got a kick out of what they said
because the proponentsof winchester primers say almost the same thing, except that
instead of lead spagnate they use aluminum spagnate, [styphnate,whatever]
which provides a longer burn on the powder.

Yup to both nick and fivedog. Let me say that "fratricide" was my own unfortunate choice of word. I should have used "sympathetic detonation" as the Federal staff did. That's what I meant.

Lee asserts that Federal primers are more susceptible to sympathetic detonation, and my own observation about the design of Federal packaging seems to enforce that statement (as does Federal's reply to me, without saying so directly).

Most of us have used Federal primers with complete safety in Lee and other priming tools. However, one should realize that IF you use a priming tool that holds more than one primer and have an accident where one primer goes off, so might one or more others - regardless of brand of the tool or the primer. I think that's the important point to remember here.

Unless winchester changed since the last batch they are packaged horizontally, whereas the Federal are packaged vertically. Also, isn't Federal owned by stoeger? Is it all just one big conglomerate with the beretta family as well as RCBS, Speer, et al

i'm pretty sure that federal and speer are owned by alliant tech systems (ATK). not sure about the others.

That's what I was thinking as well, but I went to stoeger website and Federal premium is listed under their banner (look at bottom of the page) http://www.stoegerindustries.com/

On Federals own site they say they are owned by ATK.

http://www.federalpremium.com/default.asp?br=1

if you double click on the federal premium icon it takes you to the federal homepage where it states that they are owned by atk.... kinda odd, actually isn't stoeger primarily just an importer anyway? mabey stoeger handles federal's distribution? doesn't make any sense but who knows!

I don't care if Federal primers explode in a Lee Auto prime I'm going to use them anyway. Mommy never let me have a dog and this is a good way to get a guide dog.

Yes, Federal is a part of the ATK empire. The link on the Stoeger page may simply be an advertising spot.

Being owned by the same umbrella corporation does not mean Federal primers are the same or even interchangeable with any other similarly owned brand - any more than Land Rover parts will interchange with Ford.

I noticed that if you hover your mouse over the general vicinity of the links at the bottom of the page, a little popup type thing appears and says "benelli brands and sponsors". So I guess federal falls under sponsers. I would have sworn they were an ATK brand until I saw that page, then I was confused, until aforementioned popup type thingy appeared.

I don't care if Federal primers explode in a Lee Auto prime I'm going to use them anyway. Mommy never let me have a dog and this is a good way to get a guide dog.

You must be a glass half-full kinda guy.:D

Actually, even though experience says Federal primers are more sensitive, if brissance isn't the cause, I would like to quiz Lee as to how they made the determination that Federal wasn't safe in their tool? Lee has got into public p***ing matches with other company's in the past. Most notably with Sierra over whether the slight distortion Lee Factory Crimp dies cause in the side of a bullet actually compromised its ballistics significantly or not? After publicly sniping at each other's views in advertising, Sierra just said something like 'don't use that die on our bullets' and Lee just said something like 'all bullets are capable of working with this die except Sierra's'. I haven't noticed either thing being said for awhile now, but they were at it hot and heavy for awhile.

I might give Lee a call and ask how they came to decide Federal primers were an issue, if I can't find it spelled out somewhere? I seem to recall Lee recommending CCI primers back before the last improvement to the Lee Loader was made. That tool used to set off primers periodically, and the thicker CCI cups would no doubt have reduced that problem. Whether they extrapolated from that experience that there was a liability concern or actually blew some Autoprimes up, I don't happen to know? Maybe Rocky has some info on it? I'm out of town and can't check Lee's book at the moment, but if you have a copy it may say something in there?

Only problem I've ever experienced seating primers was back years ago and trying to seat them in 44 Mag brass with the Lee Classic Loader. Every so often there would be an exploding primer. Got so I would wear a glove on the hand holding the seating rod when hammering down to seat the primer.

Quit using the Classic Loader and never had a problem since. I've run all brands through the Lee and the RCBS hand primer loaders with nary a problem. Even used their Auto Loader without any mishaps.

It's quite simple. Lee got sued by somebody that had a tray of Federals all go off at once, causing injury. The out-of-court settlement mandated that neither party discuss or even mention the details (which is very common in such settlements.)

So, Lee won't directly comment on why they have that warning, and neither will Federal. Both of them had that little CYA match in their ads, and when both sides were happy, they simply stopped talking about it. They may have even privately agreed about what each would say and for how long, but I'm purely guessing there. It wouldn't be surprising - I've seen similar things happen in industry.

If you look at them, the RCBS tools have a sliding gate that separates the primer being seated from the rest - and the reason is to isolate those in the tray and prevent sympathetic detonation. The strip-loading tool was designed to create primer spacing, too. None of this is surprising, nor a conspiracy; just smart engineering and careful legal positioning.

I've put thousands through my Lee Auto Prime and never had a problem.

I've used CCI primers for years until one day when my wife went to town and I had to work, I asked her to go to the gun shop and get 1k Large rifle primers. She came back with some Federal 210's at a remarkable price, and I started to use them. No problems, good accuracy, I was happy. I still have a supply of CCI 250's that I'll probably keep for hard times...

Then my youngest son brought over 1k of the Federal Match primers,both the GM210M and the GM215M so I tried a box of each. I will say that for me it was the only change that I made in my load for my 7mm Rem Mag and my 30-06, but it did tighten up my groups. I'm now using up what CCI primers I have left for plinking loads, and will use the match primers for all of my hunting applications. When the Federal 210s are gone, I'l be buying the match primers

My son shoots a lot of long range target, and he now uses the Federal Match primers exclusively.

Remember, this is just what my son and I experienced. You may not have had the same results.

Shocked to see this thread still going. I just primed another 1000 cases using Feds and my Lee and remembering this thread was maybe more nervous than usual! But c'mon, it's the cat's meow. I even decided to give up my RCBS hand primer I bought just a couple years ago. I was tired of sore thumb using the Lee, but NOTHING feels the seating like the Lee, and NOTHING is as trouble free as the Lee. Amazing device, it really is. All the guys I shoot with, and there a bunch, warned me off CCI's a long time ago. All I know is that with the Feds, I never have had a problem. Same with the Lee. They belong together. Let's call Mythbusters.

dont have any problem geting federals here in okla. I also use some cci primers as all my guns have a stout hammer fall

I saw a video of full trays primers being set off intentionally within a 24 x 18 inch corrugated box.
When CCI and most other brands were set off, only a few would detonate and the box was not penetrated.
The same test with Federal primers every one exploded, the nylon tray blew apart and the cover penetrated the box in addition to many of the primers.
This video was shown in a courtroom. The plaintive lost.

I'm surprised to hear you say that. Federal primers seem to "cure" guns with marginal firing pin strike,

I had that exact problem with a modified S&W model 29, averaged at least one misfire per cylinder full with CCI and was told to switch to Federal and have never had the problem since then.

Dan

. . . This video was shown in a courtroom. The plaintive lost.

So it failed to convince the judge or jury, whichever was making the decision?

Hi unclenick,
Sorry that I did not myself clear. The plaintive was the injured party who was using Federal primers and claimed injury of $50,000. After the jury saw the video they decided <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas:contacts" /><st1:GivenName>Lee</st1:GivenName> was not at fault.
When a customer uses a product contrary to recommendations, the manufacturer is not liable. <O:p</O:p

That must have been after Lee started issuing the warning about Federal primers, then. I believe what lead to them issue the warning in the first place was that law suit they settled out of court that Rocky describes in post #47, above.

(By the way, if you cut and paste from Word into Notepad with the word wrap turned off, then press Ctrl+A to select All in Notepad and copy again, then paste that second copy into the forum composition window, you will avoid creating the extra characters. They are Word formatting characters that the board software misinterprets.)

Federals are what most bench resters use. They seat easier for me and that's also why I prefer them. I've never in 50 yrs. had any primer go off when it wasn't supposed to. Maybe just lucky, but I deprime live primers with impunity and have never even had one fire.

Rev

Hi . If you do not mind me asking this of you . It might sound like a dumb think to ask but will ask it anyways . How do you deprime a live primer? Is there anything different then a fired one? I do deprime live shotgun primers with no problem I use a hand deprimer.
Thank you

Hi unclenick,
Thanks for the info on notepad.
The warning has been in the catalog, and on the instruction sheet that comes with the Auto-prime for many years before the lawsuit. That is why the jury did not hold Lee liable.
If you must use Federal Primer use only 10 at a time.

dont have any problem here in okla finding federal primers I use them regularly

trapper9260
Should a live primer detonate while being removing from a case, it exits at 1400 fps. (ref. page 80 Modern Reloading 2cnd ed.)

That's no problem if it has no place to go such as with the old hammer them out Lee Loader. However, picture one shooting down the nice curved ramp of many press rams that guide the speeding primer to impact the user below the belt.
Ouch! Not fatal but, imagine how funny that would appear to the nurses in the emergency room.

Every Sportsman's Warehouse I've been in lately has had Federal primers. As for them not workng in Lee's Autoprime?
RJ

I use the Lee Autoprime, and think it's a great tool. But the precision on the unit is kinda loose. Federals tend to wind up sideways more than any other brand in my unit. But I think you'd have to be pretty aggressive on the handle to get one to go off.

trapper9260
Should a live primer detonate while being removing from a case, it exits at 1400 fps. (ref. page 80 Modern Reloading 2cnd ed.)

That's no problem if it has no place to go such as with the old hammer them out Lee Loader. However, picture one shooting down the nice curved ramp of many press rams that guide the speeding primer to impact the user below the belt.
Ouch! Not fatal but, imagine how funny that would appear to the nurses in the emergency room.

Thank you for your advice. I will just leave them like I have been and put oil on them