This is my first post on this forum so first off hello all. I have a Thompson Center Hawkins
.50 cal kit that I just finished. It was my dads that I inherited that he did not finish. The date on the manual says 1978. Finsished it finally this week and took it shooting yetserday. This was the most fun I have had in a while and opened my whole world up to what I have been mising!
I used .495 Hornady lead balls, no. 11 CCI caps, .010 pre lubed patches, and 60 grains of Hodgen Pyrodex RS. I have some questions on this. Shot very well at 50 yards within 2" groups which was much better than I had anticipated not knowing what to expect from a round patched projectile. Went to 100 yards and was within 2-5" of center. The wind was awful and by this time had 15+ shots and gun was probably dirty.
First the patch shows what the manual refers to as "burned out" not the x on the patch that shows an "efficient patch". The .010 does seem thin. The brand of patches Cabelas 100% cotton pre lubed. 2nd the CCI cap seems to slip on too easy onto the knight Red Hot .75mm stainless nipple. If I turn gun sideways the cap just falls off, shouldn't this be tight? I can't hunt like this because it won't be there when I need to shoot. I have a Turkey hunt this coming weekend and really want to take a Turkey with this gun.
Was also wondering what loads and grains of powder you all were using that were proving to be the most accurate results, in a round ball. I was very happy with what I experienced for the first time, would have liked tighter groups at 100 yards, but concidering my first time and up to 40 mph crosswinds I was pretty happy. Thank you all in advance and any tips and suggestions is what I need.

that rifle sounds like a good one to me. as for as the cap falling off i would take a small ball peen and lightly expand the nipple.

I haven't run Pyrodex much but with 2F or 3F blackpowder charges from 65gr to 85gr by volume are normal, usually the rifle will settle in with a particular charge and ball/patch combination.

With the 0.495" balls, a patch thickness of 0.013" to 0.016" will likely give you a better seal to stop the blow-by that's tearing up the patches. The patches could also be burning in that there is insufficient or poor quality lubricant on them and they are simply being consumed by the fire. Third condition could be a rough bore, if it's not rusted, burs and/or sharp edges formed during the manufacturing process can be cutting or tearing the patches - the bore may need to be burnished and/or lapped to solve these issues if they are present. If you can't see/feel any problems, likely a thicker patch material and/or better lube is all that's needed.

As for the caps falling off, you have several options, the easiest being to change the nipple to one that fits the caps snugly or squeeze the cap lightly between your fingers to make it oval so it stays on the nipple. The nipple will likely get peened on its own just from normal use also the caps may be slightly larger or the nipple slightly smaller than they should be. If you have the factory nipple, try one of your caps on it and see if it fits or falls off and go from there.

You're getting 2-5 inch group at 100 yards your first day out, with iron sites, and in 40 mph winds!?... wow. I say be very happy! Plus you shot it 15+ times without even swabbing the bore clean, it sounds like. I am amazed at your accuracy, actually. It should have been far worse.

Plus it was your first time with this gun! You and the gun did great!!!

Question---
Are you going to be shooting the turkeys at 100 yards or more like 25-60 yards....?

As recommended above,---slightly "ovalizing" the cap is a great easy fix for you to do so the caps stay on more snugly.

I use 90-100 grains of GOEX 3F Black Powder in my 54 caliber and I recommend trying GOEX instead of that PYRODEX stuff. The GOEX worked much better for me compared to Triple Seven...

It could be the .010 patch thickness is fine. You only have .005 "clearance" between your .495 round ball and your .500 bore (rifling). You are wrapping .010 around that ball on all sides and it mathmatically she should be satisfactorily tight. Wasn't it difficult to start the ball in the muzzle? I can't understand how a round ball with a .496 diameter using a .010 lubed patch in a new 50 cal bore would be sloppy.

Perhaps the issue of the apparent inefficient patch is from the PYRODEX.

I realize you do not have alot of time before the Turkey Shoot but try the ovalizing to secure your cap and IF POSSIBLE try GOEX. Otherwise I think your first shot out of this gun will get you that turkey. 15 or so shots out of a dirty barrel should result in decreasing accuracy.

Make sure before you shoot it again you really dry out the barrel and the nipple and the charge hole. Use several patches and a pick to clean any oil or bore butter (if you used that) out the charge hole. My biggest problem after using my muzzleoader the first time was the second outing: I didn't get all the oil residue out and had to pull the ball... A common mistake. Dry fire with just a cap too to be certain you've cleared out the charge hole after you clean it well. Nothing worse than shooting a muzzleloader after it has been oiled and stored and you are hunting and the hammer falls and nothing but cap happens...

Frontloader - Welcome to the forum; lots of good folks here. I put a T.C. Hawkin together around 1980 from a kit and it was my "deer" rifle for 5 years while living in a state where "center fires" were not allowed. I used a standard load of 80gr of Pyrodex RS or Goex FFg behind a 178gr, .490 diameter round (cast or bought) bullet with T.C. patches saturated with "Crisco". I still have the rifle and it has never failed to fire. You've just reminded me how much fun it was to shoot that old "smoke pole", so I'm going to have to drag it out of the closet. Good luck with the "gobblers". Regards, Riley

Thank you for the responses all. Just wanted to clear up the mud a little. I am not actually getting 2-5" groups (I would be tickled with that). That was the approx distance from the center of aim. So some may be 5"high and left, others 3" low right, some low and some high. So on the average groups were more like 8" groups or so. About the size of a small paper plate. Which is still better than I initially had anticipated for my first outing but would always love much better. I feel I was holding pretty steady on the bench but the dirty barrel/new barrel not shot in and the conditions all play a factor. I would like to get as close as I can at a turkey but trying to find my effective range and hope to be 50 yards or under. The nipple I actually just pressed down on it firm and seems to seat and hold tight now, too easy. The ball is kind of hard to start but I have nothing to compare it tosince this is my first experince. I may try a little bit thicker patch, or a .490 and a thicker patch and experiment with loads. Thanks again and have fun shooting, I know I will!!!:D

I'd use a .490 ball, thicker patches, and a different brand of caps. GOEX 3F powder will give you the best groups. The gun isn't designed to shoot round balls very well because the barrel twist is too fast. Best results are usually with lighter powder charges.

You are doing fine for your first outing. I would certainly try thicker patching. You really are not limited to buying those precut packaged patches. It takes a tough fabric to withstand being shot out of a gun and .010" is pretty flimsy stuff. Get yourself a yard of the striped pillow ticking from Wally World and cut your patches at the muzzle. That is a very popular patching and a yard of it will last for years of shooting. You add your own preferred lube but for range work just wetting the cloth with saliva is generally about as good as it gets. With a little practice at cutting your patches at the muzzle you will never buy precuts again.

Hey Front-- You do have a "ball starter", right? That makes all the diference... a small wooden globe with a 6 to 8 inch round stick with metal end.

Also I do fnd that if I swab the barrel after a few shots with bore cleaner made for BP and then run a dry patch in it this really helps to take away some of the fouling that builds up especially near the muzzle. This then makes it easier to start those balls and get them past the first couple of inches.

I use .530 RB's with .010 prelubed patches in my 54 caliber and they group very well.

Windshield Washer Fluid or Windex makes a great bore cleaner. Olive Oil makes a great patch lube. I've been using it for years.

Stopped using patched round balls with the last of the Mohicans. I use the Powerbelt bullet now with 80gr of FFF. The Hawken really isn't supposed to shoot any bullet very well. It has a multi purpose twist. Once in a while you hit on a combo that works better than anything else Unless you're a dye hard traditionalist, try the Powerbelt. Good luck.

I've never tried the powerbelts but have often found the range littered with the plastic washers from the base of powerbelts and seen the targets left behind with holes spread all over the paper and nothing resembling a group at all. Those T/C barrels often do very well with the Maxi balls which were developed expressly for T/C barrels. However, 100 grains of powder behind 370 grains of lead does have a pretty sharp recoil and the T/C stock design tends to smack the cheek bone pretty hard. I generally prefer round balls even though the maxis do carry more energy down range and often are more accurate to boot. Traditional muzzleloaders are basically 100 yard rifles and within that range, roundballs do just fine with less expense, less recoil and a flatter trajectory.

Sage comments there, Coyote.

Generally speaking---over 100 yard hunting with ANY gun with no scope is not really recommended. If a person is using a traditional muzzleloader it is NOT a scoped gun, so why isn't a round ball satisfactory I ask for an unscoped muzzleloader?

Inline shooting with modern rifles and sabot/plastic belted ammo is not at all traditional muzzleloading, in my opinion and if someone has a traditional rifle without a scope, I can't comprehend why round ball or mini/maxi ball isn't adequate for all needs. As you state, Coyote: less expense, less recoil, and flat trajectory... and most importantly they get the job done both taking game and popping holes in paper.

It reminds me of a buddy of mine who after he saw my simple house, he said it was the best little home he ever saw!!! (He is a builder). He said he LOVED IT so much he had to have the plans, so I gave him a copy. After two weeks says he made some improvements: He doubled the sq footage(!) and added many features so now it is more practical for his needs, he also more than doubled the price(!) and the home does NOT at all resemble the looks of my "simple little home" at all. I said, "Tom, you ruined a perfect house by trying to make it better." To say the least, what he created was now nothing like the original home that he said was "the best" he ever saw. To me it looks likes poop now, too.

And, of course, black powder means different things to different people. For some, like me, I really like the traditional approach. My buddy (the same builder friend) has a top-of-line, ultra modern 2007 Thompsons inline with scope, super duper recoil suppression stock, all the bells and whistles, it looks more like an AR-15 than anything I ever saw, and he can take a deer out to 250 yards. He is all excited about his new interest in muzzlelaoding...

To me they (my muzzle loader and his) are NOT the same. Unfortunately they are called the same: Muzzleloaders.

I'll take a Round Ball any day for Muzzleloading. If I want to hunt more than 120 yards I'll use a scope and a modern cartridge.

But each person has their own preference for things.

I know what you mean there Zoar. Too many folks are "into muzzleloading" just to take advantage of the muzzleloading season, and "take advantage" is just what they do. They want something which legally qualifies as a "muzzleloader" while posing none of the drawbacks or limitations of a real muzzleloader. They want a gun which looks like and shoots like their Weatherby. They don't want to spend time getting to know the rifle and working up a load and they sure don't want to have to clean black powder residue out of it, they want to just load it up according to the instructions with the latest whiz-bang, non corrosive powder and take those 300 yard shots and put it away till next season.

With this gun I do want to stay traditional. I have a Thompson Omega inline with a scope and Powerbelts, but this Hawken rifle I'd like as tradtional as I can get, and may play with black powder eventually. Am loving it and still pretty accurate @ 100 yards and less. Probably won't try the Maxi's in this if I can keep it shooting well. I do agree about the new scoped inlines are far from traditional.

WELL JEEPERS-CREEPERS !.......Here we go !

First of all, Frontloader, My hat's off to you for starting this thread !......I just joined, and this is my very first post ! After I "browsed" for about 20 minutes, and came across this thread, I KNEW I was at the right place !

For the rest of you, I'm Markopolo......thanks for letting me (hopefully) become a member of the family.

I've got a BEAUTIFUL 50 cal. Hawken cap-lock that I've never shot.......I'm pushing 50, and only now, am getting into the gun hobby.....(also, a "MINT" blue Colt® Python 6".....but that's another story).

I've got more questions than can probably be answered, so I'll probably just sit back and read for a few days (or weeks)......and hopefully will make progress into our beloved (and MY) new hobby !

Marko.

I must have some kind of "Bad Aura" around me........whenever I try a thread (on ANY site), there is an almost INSTANTANIOUS stoppage of info !

Jeepers-Creepers.....I'm not THAT BAD.......(and I'm actually not bad looking.....:p)

So let's try and start this thing up again !.............

BASIC INFO..........

I've got a 50 cal. Hawken, cap-lock, Beautiful condition......I DON'T HAVE A CLUE.........

Took her out the other day, and ONLY because of "You-Tube" videos, was I able to light her off without killing myself !

COME ON GUYS !........Help me out here !
Loading, Cleaning, Powders, Powder Charges, Projectiles,.....(and "off-the-cuff" stuff that you don't read in the books).....

Thanks !...........MARKO.

It's a big subject. I learned that when I bought a used T/C Hawken flintlock without a manual but with a worn out frizzen and flint. Anyhow, you have to clean it after shooting or it will rust. The residues of real black powder and the substitutes are water soluble, so a number of wet patches will get it out eventually. There's various solvents that will speed it up. Dixie Gunworks Black Solve, Windex with vinegar and Murphy's Oil Soap all work. A barrel brush will too. Muzzleloader brushes are a bit different as many of them have a 10-32 thread instead of the 8-32 thread of cartridge gun brushes. Check the threads on your ramrod, which may be different at each end. Run a few dry patches through to dry it out, then oil the barrel. Some fancy oils and greases react with real black powder to form tar, which you don't want. Use a plain oil like 3-in-1 or FP-10, which is fancy and won't tar.

Black Solve: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=2070&osCsid=a0a6cca71b580092bd4501a09db6b0ba

Muzzle Protector: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1395&osCsid=a0a6cca71b580092bd4501a09db6b0ba

You'll find much more information at the Muzzleloading Forum, as it's a specialist forum.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/

Bye
Jack

THANKS JACK !.....I appreciate that ! And while I'm at it, I'd like to thank "MARKKW" for
sharing some wonderfully valuable info. with me too !

You guys are GREAT ! ;)

Marko.....