I'm a new member and blackpowder shooter. Have just bought a new TC Hawkins muzzeloader and have a question on using Sabots:
What are your thoughts on shooting Sabots in a new "unseasoned" bore? Or should I season it first with lubed lead Maxi-Ball boolits?

Thanks for your answers.
-al

Welcome to the forum lv. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

I've shot sabots in several different muzzle loaders and never had really great luck with them, but that's just me. I don't think the barrel cares if it's seasoned with something like bore butter along with shooting the sabots or lead bullets. I've always used a black powder substitute like Pyrodox and triple 7 and not black powder. I like Lee's Minni balls cast in pure lead or Hornedy's Great plains lead bullets or even round balls better than sabot's. Sabots can require using something that will dissolve the plastic left behind after shooting though.

I wouldn't shoot either. A patched round ball over 80 grains of 3F Goex would be my choice.

Stay on the wise side of caution here. The percussion rifle has an open port to the chamber. The only thing sealing it is the hammer's spring tension on the thin fired cap. Don't assume that any load used in an in-line rifle can be also be used in your Hawken. My neighbor tried his friend's load in his Hawken and it blew up in his face.

The sidelock percussion rifle is basically a 10-12,000 psi rifle. Get a copy of Lyman's "Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual". There are many good loads listed along with pressure levels.

Thanks for all of your replies.

faucettb: Good to hear that the pure lead LEE mini ball will work I have been looking at that mold, but wasen't sure if it would work a 1-48 twist barrel. Also, never thought about sabots leaving a plastic residue. Good Info.

Swampman: 80 grains of 3f Goex was going to be my first choice. I'll pick-up a box of RB's and give them a try. Will Bore Butter work for patch lube OK?

8iowa: I have a T/C Hawkins, .54 Caliber. There good for 110 Grains BP according to T/T's information. I DON'T plan on using that much though. I think my 67 year old shoulder would "strongly" object to the abuse. :mad: And thanks for recomending Lyman's BP book. Will be gettiing one soon.:)

Bore butter is fine. Crisco, olive oil, or even spit will also work. I've shot hundreds of rounds using only spit.

It will make no difference using sabots. In fact, seasoning never makes any difference unless you're going the full route -- use only real BP; use only pure organic patching and lubes like spit, lard, lard/beeswax mix; clean with pure water only, never any detergent; use only olive oil (what the oldtimers called "sweet oil") for bore preservative oil.

Plenty of folks buy T/C's hype about their Bore Butter. In my experience, it's the worst glop I've ever put in a bore. In my .58 flintlock rifle, I go the "traditional seasoning" route I've laid out. In my sabot-shooter, I use Triple7 and no lube of any kind, and clean up with whatever's handy.

IMO you should ALWAYS smooth out a new bore with at least 50 lead conicals. Then it will be ready for ANY sabot loaded with standard approved weights(200-400grains) and powder loads.

Saboted rounds almost always, will start out moving with less initial pressure spike than lead conicals.:)

Of course PRB's give the least resistance of all, because of their light weight;)

Seasoning is for cast iron frying pans, Not for modern replica muzzleloaders made of quality gun steel!:rolleyes:;)

I'm a new member and blackpowder shooter. Have just bought a new TC Hawkins muzzeloader and have a question on using Sabots:
What are your thoughts on shooting Sabots in a new "unseasoned" bore? Or should I season it first with lubed lead Maxi-Ball boolits?

Thanks for your answers.
-al

A rifle bore cannot be "seasoned" its not a cast iron skillet.
Lead bullets cause NO wear to a bore. Rifles shot with unpatched lead bullets and blackpowder have an unlimited service live since there is no wear.
If you think it needs "breaking in" 0000 steel wool on a tight patch will take off any burrs. But i doubt the TC has any if its button rifled.
Dan

IMO you should ALWAYS smooth out a new bore with at least 50 lead conicals. Then it will be ready for ANY sabot loaded with standard approved weights(200-400grains) and powder loads.

Saboted rounds almost always, will start out moving with less initial pressure spike than lead conicals.:)

Of course PRB's give the least resistance of all, because of their light weight;)

Seasoning is for cast iron frying pans, Not for modern replica muzzleloaders made of quality gun steel!:rolleyes:;)

Thanks Lane. I thank that I'll go with your recommendation of putting at least 50 lead conicals down the barrel. I'll also put a batch of patched RB's using olive oil that Swampman and pisgah recommends as I have that on hand.:)

Also I was at a local Black Powder Muzzeloader evening "gathering" and inspected a number of muzzeloaders. Not a single one had a nice shinney bore. They all had what looked like "frying pan" seasoning in the bore. When I asked about it, their response was: "Thats what happens when you shoot natural lubed patched boolets. Kinda like what happens when you use a cast iron prying pan with crisco.":rolleyes:

Also will make up some "Moose Milk" (Ballistol and water) to swab the bore with after shooting.

I'd swab the bore with Windex or Windshield Washer Fluid. It works great. I believe in seasoning but you still have to clean the salts out after shooting. I don't like hot soapy water. Plain tepid water causes less rust IMO.

A rifle bore cannot be "seasoned" its not a cast iron skillet.
Lead bullets cause NO wear to a bore. Rifles shot with unpatched lead bullets and blackpowder have an unlimited service live since there is no wear.
If you think it needs "breaking in" 0000 steel wool on a tight patch will take off any burrs. But i doubt the TC has any if its button rifled.
Dan

Actually is does season a bit. The lube cooking into surface a bit and even soft lead or patches wear bore a bit over time. Call it something else if you want but is does season.

Actually is does season a bit. The lube cooking into surface a bit and even soft lead or patches wear bore a bit over time. Call it something else if you want but is does season.

Thanks 54cal for backing me up on this seasoning senario.
I have another question for everyone. I have sent this question to LEE, but am still waiting for an answer.

"I am trying to decide which bullet mold to get for my .54 TC Hawkins with a 1 in 48’ twist.
According to Greenhis's Barrel Twist Calculator, a bullet length of .810” @ 1400 fps will be the most stable in a 48” twist barrel."
Can someone on this forum provide me with the OALength information on the following bullits::D

Length of LEE.54 Cal. Improved Minie Ball= OAL of Bullet
Length of LEE .54 Cal R.E.A.L. 300 grain = OAL of Bullet
Length of LEE .54 Cal R.E.A.L. 380 grain = OAL of Bullet

Thanks
lv2tinker

I will chime in here and say the patched round ball is the way to go. Over the past 20 years I have used evey bullet, powder, and sabot combination I could get my hands on. Good accuracy, and even some great accuracy was achieved with some combinations, but there was always something unwanted with the combination, like heavy recoil or stubborn clean up. My old .50 Lyman Deerstalker took around 30-35 whitetails, most with a round ball, and it won several shoots, all with the round ball. My new Lyman Trade rifle in .54 has already taken 2 whitetails with a round ball.

I will chime in here and say the patched round ball is the way to go. Over the past 20 years I have used evey bullet, powder, and sabot combination I could get my hands on. Good accuracy, and even some great accuracy was achieved with some combinations, but there was always something unwanted with the combination, like heavy recoil or stubborn clean up. My old .50 Lyman Deerstalker took around 30-35 whitetails, most with a round ball, and it won several shoots, all with the round ball. My new Lyman Trade rifle in .54 has already taken 2 whitetails with a round ball.

I have to side with Hawk here on this. A RB in a 54 is a very serious pill. Its terminal game performance defies ballistics. Forget the FT LBS and velocity hype from inlines and sabots. A 54 RB is a very reliable killer. Shoots flatter than a minne and is easier on the shoulder too. Many swear b 50' RB's too but extra .040 diameter and 50 grains or so bullet weight makes a big difference . The 54 with a RB combines the flat shooting of a 50 and the added power of a 58 into a nice compromise package. There is not need to use a conical unless maybe you are hunting something really big that can fight back. I might also add since the original poster lives in a CO a 6000 feet and will likely hunt even higher in elevation, the RB is more efficient in retained velocity and shoots flatter too due to less aero dynamic drag. All the more reason to go with RB here. (50 RB is a good high altitude pill too)

Thanks 54cal for backing me up on this seasoning senario.
I have another question for everyone. I have sent this question to LEE, but am still waiting for an answer.

"I am trying to decide which bullet mold to get for my .54 TC Hawkins with a 1 in 48’ twist.
According to Greenhis's Barrel Twist Calculator, a bullet length of .810” @ 1400 fps will be the most stable in a 48” twist barrel."
Can someone on this forum provide me with the OALength information on the following bullits::D

Length of LEE.54 Cal. Improved Minie Ball= OAL of Bullet
Length of LEE .54 Cal R.E.A.L. 300 grain = OAL of Bullet
Length of LEE .54 Cal R.E.A.L. 380 grain = OAL of Bullet

Thanks
lv2tinker

LEE emailed an answer today:
54 Cal Improved Minie Ball: .805 inch
54 Cal R.E.A.L. 300 grain : .408 inch
54 Cal R.E.A.L. 380 grain : .542 inch

The TC Maxi-Hunter 360gr is .662
I didn't have the Maxi-Ball on hand to measure.

All of this is out of courisity more than anything else. In "ALL" probility I will be doing my plinking and Deer hunting with a .54 RB, thanks to everyone here that has put in their 2 cents worth, ;) but my Elk hunting will be with a "heaver" boolit. (Cast, of course).:D

Don't have experience with 54 cal. but my T/C 50 cal Hawken percussion 1/48 twist likes the Power Belt 295 aerotips with 80gr of FFF. Good luck.

I have a 54 Lyman Deerstalker and shoot the Lee 380 REAL bullet with 90 grains of triple 7. 1 hole groups at 25 yards and huge holes in deer. I have watched a fist size stream of blood coming out of a deer as it staggered 20 yards and dropped.

I can hardly imagine shooting modern projectiles in "traditional" rifles. Hey if they work for you that's cool. I've neven been able to get any kind of conical to hit a dinner plate at 25 feet out of a "traditional" rifle.

It depends on the twist a 1-48 or faster conicals work fine. I have shot some out of my 1-66" GPR and they don't do so well. Conicals have been around since at least the Civil War, an all lead conical is not a modern bullet.

The 1 in 48 was kinda born many years ago as kinda a compromise twist. It can do a fair job with conicals or round balls. 1 in 60 to 1 and 72 does best with a round ball and 1 in 28 to 1 in 32 is best with a heavy conical or sabot.Twist needed with a conical depends on velocity and bullet diameter to length ratio. Heavy sub caliber sabot bullets do not tend to shoot well in 1 in 48 twists because they have a higher length to diameter ratio than a lead conical the same weight but size of bore. This is why you see inline muzzle loaders with 1 in 28 to 1 in 32 twists so that they can stabilize sabots.