I have been having the problem recently with my savage muzzleloader of having primers expand in their port when I fire the gun and then it is hard to get them out, I usually have to use pliers. I use, I believe, winchester primers. Are there any higher quality primers to try?

If I haven't done so welcome to the forum Quigly.

I'd guess the first thing I'd try is some different primers, it's not a great expense to do that. As far as quality all the folks making primers do a pretty good job. I favor CCI, but that's because I live where there made and like supporting the local economy.

You may also simply have a quality problem with your rifle. I'd give Savage's repair department a call or drop them a line explaining the problem and they might have an answer for you.

Usually that is a sign of excessive pressure. Primers are supposed to expand a bit on ignition and then snap back to normal size after pressure drops. When loads are excessive the pressures and heat levels are higher longer and primer may not snap back afterward. I lighter load would help a lot here.

That certainly could be a cause 54, but he's talking about primers seated in a steel breach of a muzzle loader and not in a brass case so it may be a different situation as far as pressure is concerned. Most black powder guns do not create the 60,000 psi that a centerfire rifle can. I'd probably look for a different reason than excess pressure in this case.

not to change the subject but , When reloading you can get mag, primers or standard primers, both are the same price would it hurt anything to use mag, primers on everthing you reload? target rounds, hunting rounds, etc , Thanks , and didnt mean to step on your thread Quigly

That certainly could be a cause 54, but he's talking about primers seated in a steel breach of a muzzle loader and not in a brass case so it may be a different situation as far as pressure is concerned. Most black powder guns do not create the 60,000 psi that a centerfire rifle can. I'd probably look for a different reason than excess pressure in this case.

The primer and pressure is exactly the problem. Shotgun primers are not designed for 30,000 PSI with can be achieved with a 3 pellet load in a inline muzzle loader. Those primers were not designed with those pressures in mind. This is a case were industry has marketed something using components that were never intended for such usage. The "cure" is lower pressures from reduced loads. Also you could try to polish primer pocket to smooth its surface more to remove minor roughness that is helping grip the primer in pocket after it expands on firing.

You could be right 54, I didn't think about shotgun primers combined with triple 7. It does seem that full throttle has somewhat of a solution going to Winchester 209 primers, but his friend had the same problem. Perhaps contacting Savage is a good idea.

There was a lot of controversy over this rifle that could use both black and smokeless powder when the fella that tested and helped develop it for Savage blew up one and got injured. He held that it was to dangerous to use smokeless powder in them and Savage held they were safe. They ended up ending their association with the fella and I can't remember his name for the life of me.

Anyway like fullthrottle says Savage is very good about service on their products.

Myself I have "issues" with the whole inline thing. I have been muzzle loading hunting since the 70's and to me it is cap and ball or flint and ball or maybe a full sized lead conical slug. Not this sabot shotgun primed gun they have created. I am sure that many do not share my view otherwise they would not sell as well as they do but when I drop the hammer on a #11 cap and send a RB or conical to its target and take a game animal I feel like I have stepped back in time a bit, overcome the odds and I have done it the way primitive seasons were meant for it to happen. While inlines can have some impressive ballistics with 40 and 45 cal saboted bullets, a 54 or 58 RB is extremely effective even if ballistics are not as impressive. (in the old days when you wanted more power you increased the bore size) Never lost one hit with a RB nor had to follow it far or shoot it again. And if I was going after really large or potentially dangerous game, a 50, 54 or 58 cal conical in the 400 to 550 grain range would hit much harder and drive deeper than a saboted smaller cal and lighter bullet. Even a 45 cal cap and ball with a 300 grain conical is very effective even on larger game even though it does not have impressive ballistics. I might also add that I have never had a misfire in the field either with a properly loaded cap and ball gun. Sure it is a bit harder to use (you need to know your trajectory/range better) but it makes it more worthwhile when you score.

54 that's been a real issue with many states fish and game services. Idaho changed our muzzle loader hunting regs over the last couple of years to basically outlaw inline muzzle loaders. Today for the muzzle loader only hunts you can only use a swing hammer gun with loose black powder or black powder substitute. No sabot's and no palletized powder. You can still use patched ball and conicals.

Many other states are doing the same thing and if you look at many of the "new muzzle loaders" you'll see lots of modern swing hammer guns being introduced that are designed to get around this rule and still maintain the advantages that the inlines gave hunters.

I know that I'm sure guilty of getting away from the older style of guns and bought a Rem 700 Muzzle loader for the late season muzzle loader elk season we had. I finally sold it after the hunting regs were changed. I could have still use it for the regular rifle hunting season, but have plenty of centerfires for that duty.

My old shooting partner still has a couple of older swing hammer guns we could use in the muzzle loader season, but we do the standard rifle season with great results so far.

This has brought out lots of controversy from the folks that made investments in inlines here and in many states that have recently changed their hunting regs.

could it be that my friend and Quigly have tighter barrels on there guns? , maybe go to a smaller diameter sabot. Thanks , you can get the MMP black sabots in 3 different sizes

HPH SABOT SERIES
OUR HIGH PERFORMANCE
PRODUCT LINE
Prices delivered in 48 states - shipping and handling.
HPH Sabots are designed and manufactured to enhance accuracy with hot
powder charges. In .50 caliber rifles and charges exceeding 100 grains of
Black powder or equivalent of Pyrodex or the higher or hotter powder charges
recommended by Savage for the 10ML-II.

If you experience accuracy problems with our standard sabots and hot
charges, the HPH Series is the sabot of choice for you.


The big difference between Black HPH12 and HPH24 is HPH24 is .002" smaller
in loaded diameter. Loaded diameter is a sabot with a bullet inserted.
With a .452 diameter bullet the HPH12 is .507-.508" diameter, the HPH24 is .505"-.506" diameter.
If you have a tight loading rifle you may want to choose the HPH24
or if you have a very tight rifle, consider our 3Petal-EZ.
However, if you shoot a Savage muzzleloader with smokeless powder the HPH24
may not fit tight enough to consistently ignite the smokeless powder.
The HPH12 is the stronger of the two sabots although both usually shoot very well with hot charges.
3Petal-EZ easiest loading MMP sabot.
Loaded diameter .502"-.504"

54 that's been a real issue with many states fish and game services. Idaho changed our muzzle loader hunting regs over the last couple of years to basically outlaw inline muzzle loaders. Today for the muzzle loader only hunts you can only use a swing hammer gun with loose black powder or black powder substitute. No sabot's and no palletized powder. You can still use patched ball and conicals.

This has brought out lots of controversy from the folks that made investments in inlines here and in many states that have recently changed their hunting regs.

I can understand this. Industry will always try to exploit loop holes for profit. 10 years ago, inline were rare and in last 5 years they exploded. It is getting hard to get supplies for real muzzle loaders these days. I like the feel and look of a replica Hawken or Plains rifle which no inline has. I bought my first muzzle loader about 33 years ago in a 54 cal and still have it and it still raises eyebrows in field and gets job done too. A few years ago I was hunting and ran into a hunter and was chatting a bit. A deer brought across a ridge above us that had been jumped by hunter and ran down to cross valley in front of us and head to next ridge. We watched it for some time as it was a long trip and when I realized that it might come in range and offer a shot, I started to swing on it. They guy I met had a high tech inline and shot a few second before me and missed. I put a lead on it with my 54 and fired as it broke into a brief opening on the run about 85 yards away. It went down in next few steps after you heard big RB hit home in lung/heart area. The inline hunter was quite impressed. I was too because it was a running broad side which is not a easy one and I lead it about 3 to 4 feet and the lead was perfect with a heart shot too. (I was aiming for shoulder/lung area but bullet caught in on a leap. I was a bit lucky that day)

I dont think the problem is with excessive pressure. I do use smokeless powder in it, 34 grains of Accurate Arms powder which is in line with factory recommendations, but the primers will expand more often when I fire a primer while the gun was not loaded. The savage people and my local gun shop owner told me to do this if the gun sits for a while without being shot, helps make sure the firing hole is open. The primer sits in a bolt in the gun and the brass colored part that the firing pin hits will usually push back and there will be a gap between the rim of it and the metallic casing of the primer. It doesn't actually get stuck in the whole where the primer sits when you fire.

First, I ALWAYS snap a few caps on a gun before I load it to clean out any oil residue in chamber and flash hole area before I load it so this is a given. Also, while Savage says barrel is safe with that powder and load, the primer design simply is not designed for that usage and pressures. They should have gotten the industry to make a new cap made for that application rather than adapting a shotgun shell cap too it.

I realize that, but what I dont understand is why it rarely happens when I have the gun loaded, but often does when it isnt. I have considered that possibly the primer pops out everytime I fire it, but when there is a load in the gun, it pushes it back together so that it is easy to get out, whereas when the gun isnt loaded, it just pushes out and there is nothing to press it back together. I dont know. I really isnt a huge issue, because it doesnt happen when I am in the field hunting, but is annoying trying to get them out when I am at the range getting ready to shoot.

Most curious. So they try to let primer float a bit in there so that charge sets it back a bit? But then when not loaded there is nothing to set it back after firing pin drives it forward and it is then difficult to remove? I guess that is the nice thing about old low tech #11 caps, this is never a issue and when shooting moderate to warm loads there usually not even a cap to clear after shot.

Yeah, I know. I remember the days of using the old primers, having them out and exposed to the snow and weather in January, crossing your fingers when you pull the trigger and hope it fires and trying to pull your gloves off when it doesnt trying to put another one on the nipple before whatever your shooting at runs away. I think I will stick with carrying pliers around.

I never had ignition issues with caps in bad weather. If I knew it was going to be real wet, I would use a snug cap and paint it with finger nail polish around base and seal it. When you fired it, it would clean polish off. A big help was to leave gun out in cold at end of cold wet day some you did not have condensation issues when it was brought into a warm room. Once I carried it for 3 days in slop and it went off without a hitch when called upon to do so.

Quigly,
Almost every ML10 is slightly different when it comes to primers. The WIN primers will stick in my gun almost every time. Heavy load, light load, no load regardless of bullet or sabot. The CCI primers never stick in my gun. I have friends who swear their gun works best with WIN primers and a couple use nothing but FEDs for the same reason. Try a different brand and stick to the standard shotgun primers. Do not use the 777 primers designed for blackpowder muzzleloaders. They cause problems with smokeless.