G'day,

I've been shooting long range matches with bpcr rifles for a few years now, (Belgian Comblain rebarrelled to .30/30 and an Armi Sport Sharps .45/70) but have in the past only used light loads with smokeless propellents. I'm in the process of buying another Sharps, this time in .45/90 (it takes a while to buy a rifle here downunder) and want to load with blackpowder. I usually only see my mates who shoot these a couple of times a year, so any feedback on loading the round would be appreciated.
I've got some starline brass coming, was hoping to get away with using my .45/70 dies to partially resize cases and seat the bullets. In the .45/70 I use 405gr Westcast projectiles (west aussie manufactured pills, good quality, hard as S***) but for the .45/90 will probably use a 500gr slug from a lee mould I've got, and straight wheel weights for the lead. (Need to get a better mold down the track too)
So, will I get away with using Lee liquid allox as a bullet lube with black, and what's the dope on grease cookies? I was hoping to get away with a wad of milk carton with a newspaper wad under the bullet, and not worry about wasting powder space. I'm prepared to run a patch down the barrel between shots if I have to.

-Kilburnie

Stay away from the alox-type lubes when using black; you'll get the ugliest tar deposits you've ever seen.
The grease cookie will keep the fouling soft.......if you're wiping, you can probably forget it.
Some guys have had problems with the Lee 500 running out of lube at around 30" of barrel length.
The starline brass is hard and may require annealing when using black powder loads.

If you want a bunch of info, try here:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

http://www.bpcr.net/forum/

Thanks for the advice and the links. I was hoping allox would be alright, as it's easy to get and I don't own a lubri-sizer. Looks like I'll be concocting some homemade recipes for lube on the stove top...

You can use SPG lube, or if you can't get it, here's a couple that I've tried:

"1995 Lube" - sourced from Paul Matthews

2 parts yellow beeswax
1 part Pure Neatsfoot Oil
1 part Murphy’s Oil Soap

(easy to make in 8-oz batches)

1) Melt 4 oz of beeswax in the microwave. Usually 6-8 minutes is about the right time.
2) Stir in 2 oz of Neatsfoot oil when beeswax is melted. Stir until the mixture is lumpfree.
3) Stir in 2 oz of Murphy’s Oil Soap, stirring continuously as the soap is added. Again, mix until there are no lumps.
4) Pour into storage containers as soon as batch is well mixed.

Very soft and sticky. Will not melt in the sun, but works well in the cold, too. NOT suitable for pan lubing.

“Shows Promise Lube” - sourced from Paul Matthews

8 oz Yellow Beeswax
4 fl oz Pure Neatsfoot Oil
1 cake (3 .5 oz) Neutrogena Facial Soap

1) melt the beeswax over a low fire
2) stir in the neatsfoot oil until lumpfree
3) cut the soap into fine peels, then add to the melted mixture.

Don’t boil the mixture. A very sticky bullet lube. Looks to be very good.




70% Soywax
20% Avocado oil
10% lanolin
......................this is good for cooler weather, spring/fall

By Weight:

6 Parts BeesWax

1 Part Murphie’s Oil Soap

1 Part Pure Neats Foot Oil (PURE Neats Foot Oil, NOT Neats Foot Oil Compound)

1 Medium sized eye dropper Peppermint Oil (helps make lube more pliable without lowering melting temperature)

1 Part LubeGard.

Thanks for those recipes, Skipper. I'm unfamiliar with Murphy's Oil Soap, (perhaps I can substitute a similar product?) but everything else I can get out here. If SPG lube is available here, I've never seen it anywhere. I Imagine the beeswax will make the lubes harden again once mixed, do you have to reheat the mixture to lube the bullets?

skipper,s first and second lube mixes work great .substutute the soap with pure soap from the supermarkets(wollies coles etc,) grate the soap before adding in a big container as it frothes up. ie. 8oz wax mix in a 500gram coffey tin. reuse the lid as meeses and dogs love it. try about 3/4 cake of soap which is what i use for my 38/55.scale the mix down to try it. more soap for harder mix. best of luck.

Kilburnie, I'm not sure where you live but I've have trouble finding any lube outside of Brisbane. I mostly make my own but wanted to try some Lyman lube in a gun that was leading badly. I ended up getting it from R&R Arms in the states. With the current exchange rate it was quite competitive.

Kilburnie, this time of year (up here) you don't have to reheat the mix. I like to pan lube my bullets, but you can just smear it on the slug with your fingers if you want.
b&aroberts is right on the money with his instructions. I imagine that his recipe will work very well.
Why don't you send Steve Garbe at SPG an e-mail and see if he'll ship it to you?

http://www.blackpowderspg.com/contact.html

Thanks for all the advice guys, I've got a bit to work with there now. Aussie collector, I'm from up near rocky in central q, not a lot going in the gunshops department up this way. Generally have to mail order things up from Noosa or Cleavers. Bought a 500gr tin of AS30 shotgun powder in Rocky the other day, it cost $49. :eek: I won't be doing that again.

Well, the new rifle arrived and I've blown a bit of smoke downrange. Skipper, that first recipe for bullet lube seems to be a real winner, haven't tried the other two yet. My bullets cast from wheel weights using the 500gr Lee mold used to foul quite badly in my .45/70 with smokeless and liquid allox lubricant, but using your recipe for lube in the .45/90 I haven't had any lead fouling, even with 90gr FFg behind the bullet in the 34" barrel.
Accuracy so far hasn't been real great, getting about 3" groups at 100 yards (but it is s**tty conditions, has been blowing about 20kts here all weekend and quite gusty). I've backed the load off to 85gr and changed primers, see how that goes next. I did have trouble with the first lot of ammo compressing the powder charge enough to get the projectiles to seat deeply enough to chamber, turns out the rifle has a fairly short throat. Dropping 5grs seems to have helped in that regard. Going out again today to make some more smoke so I'll see how it goes...

I think that the 45-90 should have had the spot that the 45-70 holds today as it is a truer old time high powered round than the 45-70 (the cartridge looks more impressive too)

Kilburnie, the load I've used for many years is as follows:

Paul Jones Creedmore bullet
https://www.sageoutfitters.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=44501

75 Grains Swiss 1 1/2 F
Large pistol primer
.060 Veggie wad
.002 neck tension

Actually, 3" at 100 in crappy conditions isn't too bad. What is your bore size? What alloy are you using?

G'day again,

I've been able to get hold of a ready supply of wheel weights, so bullets are cast from them. Thrown from the 500gr Lee mold they weigh about 489gr I think from memory. I haven't slugged the bore to measure its diameter, but I've been shooting the projectiles as is, unsized. Actually, what I really need to do I guess is weigh every projectile and sort them by weight, no doubt that will have quite an effect on grouping. I could never get those pills to shoot in my .45/70, but I attributed that to the leading they always caused in the fairly rough barrel, and the 1:22 twist that rifle has.
Tried my second batch of ammo yesterday. I didn't resize the brass this time, just decapped it and flared the neck slightly to take the projectile. I used 85gn Wano FFg, a milk carton wad and the projectile seated and just slightly crimped to remove the bell on the neck from flaring. I changed from Win large rifle primers to CCI 250 Magnum primers. Conditions were still pretty lousy, this time I had about a 10kt tailwind, gusty as anything. I did my shooting off my cross sticks this time, and from my first 3 shots at 100 2 were inside of 1" and the third was a crazy flier that opened the group up to about 7". Oops, think I may have flinched there, or the 'cross stick shuffle' got to me. But anyway, went back and fired another two from the same position, this time I thought I'd shot to the left a bit. I went up and those 2 were within an inch of each other, but sure enough they did go to the left, making a group of four shots within about 3". I went out to 200 and had a couple of shots, they went inside 4" at that range. I think this load shows some promise, I'll have to try it off a benchrest on a better day.
Oh yeah, the rifle is an armi sport Quigley model, with 34" barrel. I put a secondhand Pedersoli Soule long range sight on the tang but at this stage haven't gone to a globe front sight. I like the look of the original blade sight. I've got globe sights on my comblain .30/30 and .45/70 sharps and I always end up using the post inserts anyway.

Oh, and wiping between shots seems to be a 'must' with this load. Just for curiosity I fired a 3 shot group without wiping and it opened up to about 8" at 100yds.

Which Lee 500 are you using? The flat nose nose or the 500-3R?

It's the 500 3R

I think that the 45-90 should have had the spot that the 45-70 holds today as it is a truer old time high powered round than the 45-70 (the cartridge looks more impressive too)

Perhaps one round that is a bit more impressive than the 45-90 is the 50-90 :) but what you typed about the 45-90 is true... always amazes me how history gets re-written.

and the 50-90 compared to the 45-70 is a no compare!

I enjoy my 50-90. I can load it soft or heavy and both hit where I aim the gun.

Hey Kilburnie
You want good results at long range you need good bullet and paul Jones is about as good as you can get in 45-90 75 gr. swiss 1.5 and starline brass with fedral 215 mag primer and .60 veg wad do everything the same during reloading watch compression make sure it is the same for every round then try loading by volume carfully loading . Swiss does not like being compressed to much load it so that you are compressing it about 1/8 in I would pay more attention to the compression than the weight 1.5 swiss weights better than any other black powder I have used and is more powerful than 2f Consistincey is the key I know I spelt that wrong but I never went to school had to work

Regards
Bob

Kilburnie: Have you taken a look at the CBE moulds from The Ammo Dump in NZ? Very nice. Pricier than the Lees, though.
http://www.theammodump.com/
Pete

Kilburnie,I am surprised you can cram 90Gr of Black Powder in a45/90 case,I have almost given up trying on my 1885 Winchester, and gone back to useing my Pedosoli Sharps in 45/120,at least I can get a decent charge in the case(although not 120Gr)I think the modern Bertram cases are much more heavily built than the old Baloon head cases,and I have never compressed my charges to much,it seems to me that if you are going to use Swiss No2 there is no point in compressing the column into a solid wodge,much like the early .303 which was charged with black powder bebore the case neck was formed.As for lube I find it very difficult to duplicate some of the components in American lubes as I can never be sure I have the crrect make of soap ,and some of the oils are difficult to find in UK or France(where do you find Bear Fat for instance) It is easier to order direct from Sheryl at SPG,She will send you a large lump of it for very little money,and you can spend more time shooting.

Kilburnie,I am surprised you can cram 90Gr of Black Powder in a45/90 case,I have almost given up trying on my 1885 Winchester, and gone back to useing my Pedosoli Sharps in 45/120,at least I can get a decent charge in the case(although not 120Gr)I think the modern Bertram cases are much more heavily built than the old Baloon head cases,and I have never compressed my charges to much,it seems to me that if you are going to use Swiss No2 there is no point in compressing the column into a solid wodge,much like the early .303 which was charged with black powder bebore the case neck was formed.As for lube I find it very difficult to duplicate some of the components in American lubes as I can never be sure I have the crrect make of soap ,and some of the oils are difficult to find in UK or France(where do you find Bear Fat for instance) It is easier to order direct from Sheryl at SPG,She will send you a large lump of it for very little money,and you can spend more time shooting.

Kilburnie, you don't NEED bear grease, any tallow will work. It's just that some will work a tad better. A good, simple black powder lube is beeswax and olive oil, equal amounts. If too thick, add a bit more oil, if too thin, more wax. Emery