In this test I wanted to see if the Corbon DPX 110 grain fired into damp (not soaked paper) without the hydroulics would open and it did not.
Next I soaked the paper and shoot the 125 grain +P Rem jacketed hollow point, the 158 grain LSWCHP +P, and the 110 Grain Corbon DPX bullet.
The results are below;
The bullets left to right are, 1&2 Corbon DPX , 3- 158 Grain LSWCHP +P, 4-Corbon DPX , 4- 125 Grain JHP Rem +P
The depth of penetration is on the paper with the bullet
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/2Inch38SpecialPenetrationWetPaper.jpg
The Corbon DPX shot into the damp paper tumbled and were recovered sideways. The Corbon DPX shot into the water soaked paper expanded and was recoverd backwards.
The 125 graain JHP +P and was recovered sideways..
The 158 grain LSWCHP was recoverd realatively point on..
Chrono'ed speeds were as follows
158 grain LSWCHP +P 794.6 FPS
125 grain Rem JHP +P 810.2 FPS
110 grain Corbon DPX +P 810.4 FPS

I don't think I want any of them coming at me. I'd much rather be on the trigger end of that deal. I'm using CCI 125 grain Gold Dots in mine for carry use. Hopefully they will stay in the gun.

Cool test! A 2-inch .38 special needs all the help it can get! That said, you won't convince me to play bullet catcher!

There are 2 reasons I carry LSWCHP +P in my snubby. You just showed one.

The other is I can cast & load identical loads for practice at 1/10 the cost of the OEM I carry.

Your results pretty much duplicate my own wet-paper test results. I also found the 158 gr. lswchp penetrated as much as twice as far as the lighter bullets.

It was the chronograph results I found most interesting, the 110 and 125s were the same velocity and both were only insignificantly faster (16 fps) than the 158 grain. Energy figures run in the .380 ACP range, only 160-220 ft.lb. It's a bit surprising that the 158 didn't show more penetration.

The pure lead 158 grain LSWCHP is very soft and its deformation is the limiting factor in its ability to penetrate.

The pure lead 158 grain LSWCHP is very soft and its deformation is the limiting factor in its ability to penetrate.

Yes, but look at the tests above: The LSWCHP still outpenetrated all of the other "high performance" loads... even with its lovely mushroom.

Yes, but look at the tests above: The LSWCHP still outpenetrated all of the other "high performance" loads... even with its lovely mushroom.


Yes it did in the wet paper test, but the first test that I did was hard barrier penetration test and the 158 grain LSWCHP +P only penetrated 1/2 as far as the 2 lighter bullets.

Hard Barrier Penetration from a SD round is asking for trouble in a lot of ways.

IMO if you are shooting a .38 of at someone behind "hard cover" - regardless of load - you have a serious problem, Legal, Ethical and Tactical. It's just not necessary or prudent in a Self Defense scenerio. Such shooting is not likely to pass the Reasonable Defense test.

Hard Barrier Penetration from a SD round is asking for trouble in a lot of ways.

IMO if you are shooting a .38 of at someone behind "hard cover" - regardless of load - you have a serious problem, Legal, Ethical and Tactical. It's just not necessary or prudent in a Self Defense scenerio. Such shooting is not likely to pass the Reasonable Defense test.


Some how I figured that just because they were bad guys didn't mean that they were stupid. Almost any one his going to try thier very best to avoid getting shot and this usually means taking cover. How about drive by shootings? I consider a car door or car body to be a "hard barrier". How about some one that breaks into your home and you confront them and shots are fired, you don't think that the "bad guy would take cover behind a wall or chair, or whatever he could find? I think they would.

I agree that you have a point there, jwp475. My own limited tests indicate that penetration in different mediums require different loads. In soft materials the heavy bullets seem to do best, that is if "most" is best. In steel or glass the higher velocity rounds are most likely to penetrate.
A bit off topic for handguns, but as an example, I once did a side by side test of a 45/70 and a .223. I first fired at a standing dead pine tree about 12" in diameter. The 385 grain hard cast bullets doing about 1300 fps punched right through the hard dry wood and raised a dust cloud from the hillside behind, while the 55 grain soft point from the .223 only penetrated about 6-7 inches as best I could measure by poking a wire into the hole. I then turned to an old brake drum and the situation reversed. The .223 punched holes as clean as if milled in a machine shop while the 45/70s just made a slight dent and sent the drum rolling away. When firing edgewise at the thick cast steel rim of the drum the .223 punched a clean hole in the first side and broke out a ragged hole in the second side while the 45/70 just left a grey mark, not even a dent on the first side.
However, in your test there was very little difference in velocity between the 110 and 158 grains, so I don't know how to account for the difference in penetration. With the velocities being about the same, the heavier bullet would have about 30% more energy.

The LSWCHP is a very soft lead bullet and the deformation is the limiting factor in the hard barrier test IMHO. The 158 LSWCHP is one of the very few bullets that I have tested in various calibers that dramaticaly deforms in hard plyboard.

Some how I figured that just because they were bad guys didn't mean that they were stupid. Almost any one his going to try thier very best to avoid getting shot and this usually means taking cover. How about drive by shootings? I consider a car door or car body to be a "hard barrier". How about some one that breaks into your home and you confront them and shots are fired, you don't think that the "bad guy would take cover behind a wall or chair, or whatever he could find? I think they would.
There's a reason they are called "drive-bys" and not "stop & shoots". You, as a civillian, do NOT have the right or authority to shoot at a fleeing vehicle - no matter how many rounds they sprayed at the neighborhood - not that ANY handgun short of a .44 would really matter anyway.

As a civillian, if you continue to engage a target who has gone behind hard cover, you are opening yourself up to Liabilities beyond your wildest imagination... If the BG is behind cover, then you are, more likely than not, no longer in immediate danger and your legal options diminish precipitously.

I think you will find that the percentage of "BG behind hard cover" justified Self Defense Shootings to be vanishingly small.

I beg to differ, If I am shot at at a red light I will return fire and I am justified. If I am in a 7-11 and an armed suspect is engaged and he takes cover behind anything I am justified to fire, it is not over because he ducks. If an intruder in my home takes cover I am still justified. The confrontation isn't over just because an adversary take cover.

Old Ironsights, I must point out, as I have many times to many people - police ARE "civilians".

That term applies to non-military personnel.

However, I carry the Buffalo Bore 158 grain SWCHP +P in my S&W M337.

[quote=Nathaniel;348569]Old Ironsights, I must point out, as I have many times to many people - police ARE "civilians".

Even though they are not always "civil".:D

I beg to differ, If I am shot at at a red light I will return fire and I am justified. If I am in a 7-11 and an armed suspect is engaged and he takes cover behind anything I am justified to fire, it is not over because he ducks. If an intruder in my home takes cover I am still justified. The confrontation isn't over just because an adversary take cover.

You are kinda scary because you sound trigger happy and looking for a reason to shoot. There is a time to escalate and a time to deescalate. You seem to not be clear on or understand this.

You are kinda scary because you sound trigger happy and looking for a reason to shoot. There is a time to escalate and a time to deescalate. You seem to not be clear on or understand this.


You're a little scary with your logic an amred bad guy that takes cover is still a threat. He is still armed and he will still shoot you. I am not the least bit looking for a reason to shoot, once an individual is in that type of situation thier life will be turned upside down. I simply intend to survive

You guys keep it civil.

A few years ago there was a video on the local (Atlanta) news of two neighbors involved in a gunfight. The point of contention was a shared driveway that one thought the other drove too fast on. One of them had a video camera set up to record the action.

Said gunfight consisted of both of them taking cover behind opposite sides of the same car and periodically popping up and taking a shot at the other. Either one could have used some "hard barrier" penetration (or enough sense to avoid the confrontation) or a pistol that could shoot around corners.

One was killed, I disremember the legal outcome.

Probably on youtube but I'm not looking for it.

You cant expect too much penetration from a 2 inch snubbie.

Around my neck of the woods, the convience store owner will probably sue you. The perp certainly will.....even though I am a CC type....I really do look at my weapon as a means to protect me, my family and any innocents in the area. If I was still alive after a "red light" incident I would me more inclined to grab a camera than my weapon.

I respectfully suggest that we never ever allow our personal interpretations to be into print that could be used against a fellow shooter. If you want to warn someone please PM them... this is what antis want to home in on.. that judgmental remark could make a close call fair shooting in defense into a criminal prosecution .. I do not think that many folks here will take the time to fully set up a legally defensible scenario that would provide a more appropriate set of facts and circumstances illustrating they are not wanting any justified shoot or justifiable shoot or excuse to shoot... things fit for reading by others ... I will just try to give other gun owners the benefit of the doubt and will caution them in private as to how things read by another look at least to me.... we all stand together or we all fall apart...
please excuse my soapbox but as an attorney I feel we have to be careful... the other day a receptionist stated that cause I get some reloading supplies at the office : we will see him on tv one day... that kind of talk can be used more effectively by prosucutors than one thinks... lets just all get along and protect our shooting and ownership rights and do not let anything into print that would be damaging...
that is just my two cents... you ought to read a bit on the sniper forums where the law enforcement officers and military chat...
I hope I do not offend any one...
dan k

Ihave a colt snubbie coming in lightweight 38 detective special .. it is not a plus p gun I do not think so anyway as there were no plus ps in the sixties or not many that I can think of.. anyway...
is the load ironsides or others use shootable in the lightweight sixties model gun ?
dk

You're a little scary with your logic an amred bad guy that takes cover is still a threat. He is still armed and he will still shoot you. I am not the least bit looking for a reason to shoot, once an individual is in that type of situation thier life will be turned upside down. I simply intend to survive


I agree. You need to be prepared -- it's not enough to just carry if you can't press it into action and aren't prepared to use. And they do not cease to be a threat if they take cover, they are simply making it harder to get hit.

Interesting quote from a more interesting article on the development of the confluence of ballistic gelatine testing & real world Police Testing.

... I walked into the conference room, and the captain said, “You’re doing the presentation.”
I hadn’t seen so much brass since my last visit to an ammo plant. I presented our recommendation: the Winchester 158-grain lead hollowpoint semiwadcutter (code W38SPD), which would today be a +P load. It stood out from the pack with a 260 ft-lb energy transfer, low exit energy, a point of impact very close to the old duty ammo, relatively decent performance on car windshields, and the ability to expand its diameter when fired from a snubnose revolver. It alone had all the right attributes.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/ST_crimelabtests_200807/index.html

I beg to differ, If I am shot at at a red light I will return fire and I am justified. If I am in a 7-11 and an armed suspect is engaged and he takes cover behind anything I am justified to fire, it is not over because he ducks. If an intruder in my home takes cover I am still justified. The confrontation isn't over just because an adversary take cover.

No, it isn't over, but you also no longer have a viable target.

Rule #1 when pointing a gun - Know your Target.

Unless you have Xray vision, once your target is behind cover/concealment you stop shooting and wait for good target aquisition, take cover yourself, or flank to reaquire your target.

But unless you are behind the paddles of an M2, at Point Blank range where you can still see your target (carjacking scenerio), or have a car coming right at you (windshield) it is not a good idea to try to shoot through things.

Ihave a colt snubbie coming in lightweight 38 detective special .. it is not a plus p gun I do not think so anyway as there were no plus ps in the sixties or not many that I can think of.. anyway...
is the load ironsides or others use shootable in the lightweight sixties model gun ?
dk

Probably... just not a lot of it. Practice with unleaded, but carry hi test. ;)

No, it isn't over, but you also no longer have a viable target.

Rule #1 when pointing a gun - Know your Target.

Unless you have Xray vision, once your target is behind cover/concealment you stop shooting and wait for good target aquisition, take cover yourself, or flank to reaquire your target.

But unless you are behind the paddles of an M2, at Point Blank range where you can still see your target (carjacking scenerio), or have a car coming right at you (windshield) it is not a good idea to try to shoot through things.


That's an interesting way to look at an armed confrontation, wait untill the suspect exposes himself and can shoot you before you shoot at him.

Okay. You have my attention. How about trying the 135 grain loads developed with the snubbie .38SPL in mind? I think it's a Federal load, but can't remember 100 percent at the moment. Thanks for the test. I'm going to comment on another point in a separate response.

I must say that if an armed felon opens my refrigerator door to hide benind I want him dead on the floor instead of bolting down the hall to hide in my kid's room. Barrier penetration is important because there are no end of objects that can get in the way of your defense -- counters -- dutch doors -- just use your imagination. Fact is genuinely stranger than fiction. You may live out your life with no more than a few hard words to mar your peace or you may pick up a black lottery ticket and step into the path of a fleeing hard core felon in body armor the next time you go to get groceries. It's okay to choose a relatively light gun or load or whatever to improve the odds that you'll actually have it on hand but deliberately handicapping yourself just doesn't make much sense to me.

Old Ironsights
My friend you've been drinking to much of the Mayor Daily Koolaid!! If you got an inturder in your home (Armed or Not where I'm from) You can shoot to your hearts content- barrier or not! Now from what I know of Chicago you can't shoot in self defense at all according to Daily's law!! Now here where I live I could justifably shoot at a drive by shooter-Armed felon-perfectly legal! You seem to hung up on the liability thing as well- what the lawyers got you scared? My state, I can't be sued for a justified shooting!! You also sound like the type that will not shoot a fleeing(armed) criminal-again as long as he's armed I can and will shoot at running or not! Just because he's running don't mean he will not stop to shoot you dead or come back!

I carry a S&W 642 Right know I have 135g speer GD loaded in it. As far as the barrier penetration, trust me there are criminals out there that know how to use guns and many of them are trained or have trained in tactical shooting. Anybody that thinks that only good people get training is wrong. I work in the county jail we have a population of 4000 inmates. I speek to multitudes of them that tell me of there days in the Military. Beleve it or not we have had instances where criminals with out a record will join the police departments and military to get trained. Then they go to the getto and teach there fellow thugs how to use guns. I have on occasion found make shift training guns in the Jail that are used to teach each other how to gunfight. We have cought this in action so thats why we know what they are used for. We have had on occasion cought people teaching H2H teckniques and ways to defeat the taser, yes it can be defended agenst. You should always assume that your adversary is a traind individual. Never underestimate them!! Now I am not saying that they all know combat the great majority of them don't. However remember most of the "thugs" have been fighting a long time.