Finally after 8+ months of waiting I was able to get my hands on a Savage Model 12 223. I originally wanted a plain FV but the local Cabela's only stocks the SS version ... plenty good for me and thank you Cabelas. As for the other local store that promised me an 12FV in a few weeks last year and still don't have any stock ... I won't be shopping there anymore! :)

So I'm a happy camper, got my new rifle, loaded up some ammo, mounted the scope and headed off to the range yesterday. So I get to the range and did my initial shots at 50yds at a 3 ft square piece of wood with only one shot hitting the wood. :confused:

Ok, that was weird, never have I come across a sight in as bad as this so I go over everyhting on the rifle .... nothing seems odd and the scope was previously used on another rifle without issues. So now I put another two shots down range and nothing hit the target. Now as I move my bench up to 25 yds from the target and I'm thinking to myself, nobody can make a rifle this bad but also thinking a may need to find a broad side of an old barn. ;) So another three shots fire out with only ONE making a mark on a 3ft x 3ft piece of wood ... I'm totally speechless at this point.

So just to get a good frame of mind back I pull out the 22 and fire off some rounds at the targets. After a few clips I took a look through the scope at the piece of wood I was sighting the 233 in on and noticed something very odd so I walk over to the wood and sure enough, enlongated hole. Luckily, I figured out what was happening right away and since I've never used SPSX bullets before I thought I'd better check it out. Sure enough, they were the problem.

Today was a much better day despite a few light rain showers and moderate gusting wind. I loaded some 55gr v-max and a few 69gr match kings as I thought I'd better try a few different bullets today. :) I got the Savage sighted in quickly at 50yds with the 55grs and pulled back to 100. I continued to shoot off the rest of my rounds switching between the 22 and the 233 in a little competition. The 223 beat the 22 grouping most of the time which was very pleasing to see as the Marlin 2000 is a good shooter. Of course this was also kind of expected due to the strong wind.

Overall the new Savage shoots fine, big sigh of relief, and now its time to do load work as I was only using the starting loads today, let the fun begin!

Glad you got things on track. What kind of groups where you getting once you got the ammo straightend out? Keep us posted.

Congrats and good luck with your model 12. I've been very pleased with mine. I'm also curious what loads end up working best in it.

Mine likes H4895 and Sierra 52's on paper. On varmints been using the same powder with 55 V-max's. Varget or a heavy load of BLC2 worked almost as well. I still try new loads from time to time, just trying to leave no stone unturned....

I was shooting 3/4" to 1" 5 shot groups with the 55's and 69's at the end of the day. This is also my first time out this year so I'm a little out of practice but if the weather is nice I'll be out all next weekend, I'll also bring wind flags just in case.

I loaded both at 24.5 grs of Varget so I'll start loading up from there. These little cases sure don't hold much before going to a compressed charge so there's not much room to play. I guess I'll try a .3 gr run up to 26 and see how they group and shift.

Monty, how picky have you found your Model 12 to changing the off the lands distance on those 55 v-max's?

Congratulations on your purchase. My new 223 is a Kimber. The gun has a "match chamber" according to the info that comes with the gun. The chamber is on the small side with almost no jump to the lands. My first loads were 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips over a 1.9cc Lee Dipper cup of Varget powder seated to SAMMI COL depth (because I had to seat them that deep to get them to chamber). It shoots little bitty groups and I have nothing I can or should play with to make it better. Kind of bummed me out because I'm used to tweaking the loads on my other guns to get the best results. With this one I just load and shoot......and smile. I think you will find you really like Varget in your new gun.

Monty, how picky have you found your Model 12 to changing the off the lands distance on those 55 v-max's?

Mine shoots best with the bullet resting on the lands. Just for ease of removing loaded rounds from the chamber I back 'em off .010

Monty, I'll try pushing them up real close on the next batch, the previous ones were well back.

Flashhole, congrats on your Kimber, they're very nice guns. Don't think I'd have a problem with a rifle that shots tiny groups without playing around but you can always try to see if any powders don't work in it! :)

Monty, I'll try pushing them up real close on the next batch, the previous ones were well back.

Just watch it when you have 'em close, it don't take much of a load, when you close it up, high pressure signs suddenly appear.

I've pulled the bolt back once and left the bullet in the rifling and dumped powder all over, what a mess. Anymore I just point the muzzle up to prevent the same thing from happening again.

Give Benchmark a shot too. I am very happy with it in my 223

I just picked up my new 223 toy. I was able to get a H&R ultra for $283.00 due to an old web page on Walmart. I was so tweaked I loaded up 350 rounds with 55 grn sp with 25 grn of Vaqrget. It never occurred to me to see how the loads print before I bulk them up. The scope is mounted, and we are off to Moab for the weekend. I cant wait to get it dialed in. Provided I dont kill my self in the jeep 1st...

So what powder did you use in your first loads? What is your barrel twist and did the 69 grain bullets work well?

I've only used Varget so far, got a couple of lbs to try out and I've also got H335 which I'll load next. The barrel is a 1 in 9 and the 69 gr BTHP shot the same group size as the 55's did just about an inch lower and to the left.

I've loaded up my ladders on the 55 v-max and I'll probably fire off a few groups of 75 gr a-max's to see how they go.

I've only used Varget so far, got a couple of lbs to try out and I've also got H335 which I'll load next. The barrel is a 1 in 9 and the 69 gr BTHP shot the same group size as the 55's did just about an inch lower and to the left.

I've loaded up my ladders on the 55 v-max and I'll probably fire off a few groups of 75 gr a-max's to see how they go.

I'm very curious how your load development works out.

I've noticed Sierra recommends H335 for several accuracy and hunting loads but for me it didn't work out. Found at least four other powders that worked better in my rifle. My hunting partner uses H335 for his .223's, but I think he mostly likes the way it goes thru the powder measure on the Dillon.

Also the same thing with heavier bullets. I figured with the 1 in 9 barrel, for sure would prefer longer bullets. The 69's shot well although not as accurate as the 52's at 100.

Like they say, "Your results may vary!" :confused:

I was fully expecting you to say that you inspected those single holes on target and found that they were actually GROUPS. Knowing how Savages can shoot, that may well have been the case! Try some of those first loads again, but using a slightly different aimpoint each time. I would not be surprised to learn that you get one hole for each shot - right where you aim it!

Got out for some shooting today so here's a quick range report.
Only had one wind flag, broke the ground spike on my other one today. :(

First off, thank you MontyF, close to the lands (.01-.015) worked out well.

Even though today was to windy for a good test, more about shooting skills than a load & rifle test as the wind was real challenging, but it was fun none the less. Also, I definitely gained an deeper respect for those who do well with benchrest shooting on windy days, still don't know how you people do it ... but I think I'm getting a little bit better.

Started off in the early afternoon with the wind variable (12 - 4 o'clock, mainly at 3) and gusty ~10 - 25 mph. Shot 5 rounds of 5, Sierra 69 gr BTHP, 24.5gr Varget, seated .020. One group was 1.5 MOA, 3 groups 1 MOA, maybe slightly better, one 1/2 MOA. Before and after the 223 rounds I shot the .22lr to see how well I was reading the wind as they really drift at 100m ... lets just say it wasn't pretty.

After those rounds I moved over to the other range which had the main wind at 12 o'clock, almost head on. The 22lr groups, could actually call them groups now ;), got better so I decided to run the ladder, 4 rounds of 6 shots from 24.5 to 26.0 gr Varget. Here are the results (grid is one inch)

http://members.shaw.ca/savage223/ladder2.jpg

Since I didn't find a truly consistent pattern I figured the wind was still the biggest factor so I'll have to run the ladder again. :)
If its a real calm day I'll try shooting from 200m.

That's great - it looks like you you're getting it dialed in. My 223 has a 1:9 twist and I'm thinking about trying some of those 69 grains bullets too. All my 223 work to date has been with the 55 grain Ballistic Tips and Varget powder. Here in the scenic Southern Tier of beautiful New York state we get a lot of wind and the wind bucking ability difference between 40 grain and 55 grain bullets is pretty significant.

Manitoba is about the same, windy most of the time so I'll probably try an evening shoot when the wind tends to die down. So far I don't notice much difference between the 69 gr BTHP and the 55 gr v-max in the wind.

One odd thing I noticed about these 69s is the OAL seems to vary a fair amount. This is due to variance in the ogive, mostly towards the front of the bullet. If I measure the OAL with the bullet seating die the difference is much smaller. Not sure I like that and its kind of disappointing considering these are labeled "match" bullets.

By the way, I also shot five 75gr a-max at the end of the shoot on Saturday, I had almost forgot about trying them. I was kind of rushing and really just wanted to see if they stabilized as some say they may not in a 1:9 barrel. The result was promising, they grouped just over 1 MOA and I wasn't paying much attention to the wind at that time. I'll do up a batch of the 75's for the next range visit.

That is odd. Usually the bullet makers do a better job of holding a constant ogive profile than overall length, especially with soft lead tipped bullets. The seater die has a refief in the stem to accept the tip and grab/seat off the ogive, if that (ogive) changes bullet to bullet it won't allow a consistent depth.

Would recommend bore sighting it first thing next time. Then it might not take so much ammo to figure out the problem.

flashhole, I'm spliting hairs here as the difference is mainly in the tip I gather. I don't know how much a difference it would make if one would sort the bullets.

myt-bird, I did a rough bore sight before heading to the range just never had, or expected, the bullets to tumble and/or come apart when fired.

You might consider investing in a bullet comparator to measure bullet length and cartridge overall length. they measure off the ogive and not the bullet tip

Wouldn't I get the same measurements with a bullet comparator as I do right now when I measure using the piece from the bullet seating die?

My Savage .223 shoots Hornady 55 gr. V-Max and soft points great using Varget. Couldn't get Nosler's 55 gr. to group nearly as well. Using a max charge of H-335 on the Sierra 69gr Matchking proved to group better in mine than the Varget. Now, I have 30 rounds left to test. 10 using CCI primers - 5 at .015 from lands and 5 at .010, 10 using Winchester primers same increments, and 10 using Remington 7½ primers same increments. Maybe overboard but I bought this rifle to shoot so I may as well experiment.

Gotta try that Benchmark powder next.

I'd really like to see the results of your last 30 rounds of 69 SMKs. I haven't noticed any difference in primer yet but have only tried Win and CCI 400 so far. Have you noticed a fairly large (when compared to say the V-Max) OAL difference in the 69s?

Wouldn't I get the same measurements with a bullet comparator as I do right now when I measure using the piece from the bullet seating die?

Hey Bud, that's pretty clever.......and yes, you should get the same kind of measurement data as long as the insert contacts the ogive of the bullet without contacting the tip and you can get good axial alignment with the insert.

My Savage .223 shoots Hornady 55 gr. V-Max and soft points great using Varget. Couldn't get Nosler's 55 gr. to group nearly as well.

Is the Nosler bullet the 55 grain Ballistic Tip or another bullet? I've had pretty good results so far with the BT.

It all depends on where your seater plug contacts the bullet, and like flash mentioned, how your seater plug aligns on the bullet. A good comparator isn't all that expensive, here is the hornady, formerly stoney point. You can also get inserts to measure cartridge headspace as well
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=231904&t=11082005

It definitely seats on the ogive and getting good alignment on the calipers doesn't seem to be a problem. Is there any bullet comparators (or seating dies?) that would measure to where the lands would touch?

can06 yes there is a difference in OAL of each, and the SMK's have to be loaded single shot because they simply will not fit into my magazine and feed properly at the length loaded. The 69 SMK's have a to the lands length of 2.437, V-max 55 is at 2.391 and Hornady SP 55 is at 2.321. This would of course be for my rifle, yours will vary. Will let you know on the difference of primers.

Flashhole, yes that would be the very bullet, the Nosler 55 gr Ballistic tip. Just couldn't get them under an inch group at 100, although I must admit I didn't really give them a good try.

Ya know, it makes me sick, but the most accurate I've ever had in this rifle is factory Hornady ammo using the 55 gr. V-max (not moly). Just can't get that kind of accuracy despite numerous attempts using the V-max reloads. Played with OAL, powder charges, primers. Only tried Varget and H-335 though, so I may try some Benchmark next. I can sit 38 spl brass up at 100 yards and never miss a piece using that factory ammo! Guess I'll shoot out the barrel trying to match it haha. I will say I'd rather reload though due to the cost and I enjoy it.

I believe that the Stoney Points are bored to mimic the diameter of the bore at the lands

can06 yes there is a difference in OAL of each, and the SMK's have to be loaded single shot because they simply will not fit into my magazine and feed properly at the length loaded. The 69 SMK's have a to the lands length of 2.437, V-max 55 is at 2.391 and Hornady SP 55 is at 2.321. This would of course be for my rifle, yours will vary. Will let you know on the difference of primers.

I didn't realize the same rifle could have such a large difference in freebore.

I looked up my model 12's jam length. I'm using a fireformed case and my own guage built much like the Stoney Point. These are OAL's I can supply dimensions based off the ogive with a Stoney Point comparator if wanted.

2.341 52 SMK
2.325 53 SMK
2.337 55 V-max
2.374 69 SMK

Also the magazine in my rifle was easily modified. I just shortened the sheet metal stuffer in the mag and reshaped the lips. It now feeds up to 75 grain bullets without a hitch.

Definitely a fair bit of difference in freebore.

My OAL for 55 v-max is 2.332 which is very close to what your's is MontyF. What I find really interesting is my 69 SMKs are at 2.337, a difference of 0.037 from your measurement. I would have figured they'd be very close considering the v-max's were only 0.005 off, can't really explain that ... weird.


Got back out to the range today and had quick go with some 75gr a-max's. Got a 4 (pulled the fifth one) and a 5 shoot group under 1/2 MOA @ 100 so I'm very pleased. I'll try a few loads close to that one again and vary the seating depth to see if it can get any better.

buy that stainless savage at Gander yet. There are a few 223's in the store, 2 in particular I'm looking at. One is the Rem hvy barrel sps 700 and the other is a 12 BFVS.

Last 2 guns I bought were savage, so was looking to give the rem a try, it is blue. Not that the savage's were bad, just looking for different.

Now you guys are teezing me with the great tales of the savage and I find myself drifting.......................................... ............

I don't think you'd go wrong either way, both the Rem and Savage are nice guns. The way I'm going looks like I'll end up with one of each as I've got a Win, Marlin, Rem and now a Savage.

Here's the last two 5 shot groups I did about 10 mins apart, the top right hole is the one I pulled.

http://members.shaw.ca/savage223/75amax_may29.JPG

Also, now that I've got a few rounds down the tube I might actually be getting better at shooting it. I know I'm getting a bit better at reading the wind, my 22lr groups on that same day, same 100m distance, were smaller with the wind running between 5 and 15 mph from the 12 to 3 o'clock position.

If I can get back out this weekend I'll try some 55gr v-max again to see if I can get those to group better. Right now I think its a case of me holding the gun back and not the other way around ... we'll see.