last night i was killing time so i picked out an fence post 5inch deep and 6 wide to check penetration of the winchester flat nosed in my .380..after i made the shot i stuck a pencil in the hole to see what kinda penetration i got..imagine my surprise when the pencil went all the way thru..exit hole similar to the best protection rds ive found..this has me thinking or i should say rethinking the whole protection rnd thing..i know none of the protection rnds ive tried would have come close to going all the way thru.. cause ive shot them at the same post ..
its got me thinking ,,now which of these rnds do i want to hit a mugger with. the $20. for 20 kind or the $30 dollar for a hundred winchester that has earned my respect..that flat nosed winchester is about got me sold..time will tell its tale i guess.

Try that test again, you must have hit a soft spot.

well thats why i didn t check for exit ,to start with .. i had no idea it would go thru ..
i ll keep playin but for now ive seen enough to switch to flat nosed winchester ..
at the low handgun speeds . the flat nose has just enough speed to knock the fool outa
something and still penetrate .. ill be testing a little more tho ..
im not saying these protection rds wont do what they say.. just that there might be another way to skin that cat without paying 20 bucks for 20 rds ..and do it with more penetration ..
when im hunting i know the exit wound is gonna be the place where mosta the life runs out on the ground..sounds gross but necessary for quickest kill.in the case of a mugger ,,im poed
at him for making me do it so its on him..
also never ever pull the trigger if anyone is behind the target ,,just like when you hunting..any law officer is schooled an double schooled on that..
course you could drop to one knee and shoot up on a head shot.....if it was available, id do that..but now we getting into having to do split second thinking.. not something i want to get into,in that situation.,.work the plan

Penetration can be scary for self protection. You won't have any control over what direction you might need to shoot or what will be beyond it, like your neighbors house or the street.
Granted, I don't think your .380 had a valid test based on one shot at a post.
This will show a revolver that I would not think about using. This boolit from my .475 penetrated 16" of seasoned white oak. That might make several houses and anyone it them. Even through a car if hit.

Penetration can be scary for self protection. You won't have any control over what direction you might need to shoot or what will be beyond it, like your neighbors house or the street.
Granted, I don't think your .380 had a valid test based on one shot at a post.
This will show a revolver that I would not think about using. This boolit from my .475 penetrated 16" of seasoned white oak. That might make several houses and anyone it them. Even through a car if hit.
(From the movie "Johnny Dangerously")
Dutch: They made it for him special. It's an eighty-eight Magnum.
Danny Vermin: It shoots through schools....This goes through armor. And through the victim, through the wall, through a tree outside... :D

Is penetration always the best thing? It sticks in my mind that the FBI once had a problem with the 9mm because it penetrated but didn't stop.

(From the movie "Johnny Dangerously")
Dutch: They made it for him special. It's an eighty-eight Magnum.
Danny Vermin: It shoots through schools....This goes through armor. And through the victim, through the wall, through a tree outside... :D

Is penetration always the best thing? It sticks in my mind that the FBI once had a problem with the 9mm because it penetrated but didn't stop.


You've gotten this one incorrect. I have read the forensic report and the 9nn and the 38 special +P failed to stop because of noit enough penetration pure and simply.
A 9mm 115 grain Silver Tip +P failed to reach Platt's heart a 158 LSWCHP +P failed to disrupt Matrix's spinal cord when it ran out of gas against his spine. A center chest hit on Platt failed to reach his spine as well.
Lack of penetration definately

Fair enough - the FBI did have a problem with it though, which is why my Dad who was career law enforcement always opted for larger, more powerful calibers and rounds, (.45 ACP, .41 Mag, .357 Mag, .44 Mag) which to him was a better choice.

Fair enough - the FBI did have a problem with it though, which is why my Dad who was career law enforcement always opted for larger, more powerful calibers and rounds, (.45 ACP, .41 Mag, .357 Mag, .44 Mag) which to him was a better choice.


Your Dad made much better choices with those calibers IMHO.
The 170 grain JHC loaded by Buffalo Bore is a real winner in the 41 Mag IMHO. A good penetrator ( betters the 45 ACPs best loads by just a bit) mand leaves the barrel of my 4" M-57 at 1536 FPS. In my test this load leave a very good wound channel and also offers enough penetration for a defensive load without being excessive.

that aint the only time ive shot these flatnosed into various materials .. just the most surprising..now the only test worth anything except entertaining reading is thru flesh an bone,,
in my opinion....ive come to some conclusions about round ball ammo ,,protection ammo and flat nosed ammo..these are the tools which arn t worth didley if you dont know how to use them..hence you practice to try an be able to put the round where it will stop the assailant..
there lotsa cases where men took hits to chest and body from 45s on dn.. then finally somebody hit him in the right place ,and he don t try an get up no more..
now i aint carrying a 45 or 40 or even my 9 mil sig.. im carrying a pocket pistol like i have all my life
i know this gun will get the job done ,if i do my part..don t matter what nobody else thinks .. i just gotta know,, it will ..and i do..i like to read all this stuff here but i think for myself using gods primary gift to me .. a purty good helping of common sense..not bragging really ,,but im glad he did..now ill continue testing this flat nosed to find out its capabilities..which is all i said i was going to do in my original post.
ps trick if you dad had found a flat nosed rnd for his 9 mm ,i think he coulda saved his self a pile o money ,mabe:p

With all due respect Slim60 a flat nose 9 is still less than a falt nose 40, 41, 44 or 45.

I wouldn't make a habit of shooting at wooden fenceposts. The bullets can follow the grain and come out at odd angles.

smaller ,,yep you right there.. get the job done better ...still depends on the user.. thats what it all comes dn to..its the only thing that makes any difference whatsoever..
if i told you that horatio on miami csi uses a 9 mm.. would that make you choose that gun .. i hope not ..get good with what you use and then you have the right gun for you..know it ..know what you can and what you can t do with it.. i think we jus talking common sense here..
good shootin now.
ps mike i know an axe can follow the grain .. so i guess a bullet could to..:)

Or bounce back and hit you right between the eyes.

almost sound like you want that to happen ,ken.. but of course it couldnt.. then again never say never..i might fall outa bed in the morning and it cause all the calcium to shake off my joints.. might cause me to be as good physically as i was 30 yrs ago ... but we know that probably aint gona happen either ,,right

smaller ,,yep you right there.. get the job done better ...still depends on the user.. thats what it all comes dn to..its the only thing that makes any difference whatsoever..
if i told you that horatio on miami csi uses a 9 mm.. would that make you choose that gun .. i hope not ..get good with what you use and then you have the right gun for you..know it ..know what you can and what you can t do with it.. i think we jus talking common sense here..
good shootin now.
ps mike i know an axe can follow the grain .. so i guess a bullet could to..:)


I would say that Col. Charles Askins Jr. was a **** of a pistol shot (even won some national titles) and in his book "Tales Of An Unrepentant Sinner" even he missed at times in the heat of a gun battle. Yes I agree marksmanship is indeed important but so is caliber choice..

almost sound like you want that to happen ,ken.. but of course it couldnt..

I most certainly don't want you to shoot yourself and a low velocity pistol bullet MOST certainly can bounce right back at you.

I would more expect it to happen with a piece of green oak or hickory than I would a fence post.

Even the lowly 22LR and 22magnum will penetrate 1" plywood, so I can see how a 380 would go thru a fencepost. Isn't human flesh soft amd human bone softer than wood??!

i was really surprised tho as you just don t think of that kinda penetraion from
a pocket pistol ..even tho ive made no secrete that i think highly of this little gun.
i just watched one of those cop shows .. one officer shot a guy with a knife twice
and was just standing there baffled as the guy kept coming at him with the knife ..
his partner put two more in him as he advanced on the first state trooper the last shot cut his aorta and he finally went dn..even that trooper couldn t believe it so its no wonder
its hard for us to imagine .. i guess this just shows the importance of being able to hit where you want to . .
if a man can do that just think of these fellows who carry handguns for big brown bears up north..[i couldnt spell griz] :). not me brother.. un unh ,not me..

Slim I took the Moose on the left with my 475 and flattened the Bear on the left with the 475 when he came in on us while working the Moose kill with one shot each

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg

jwp, obviously cops should be carrying .475s! Well, the .454 at the very least.....:D

Surely you want the bullet to expand really quicky, leaving no exit wound at all?

Not sure, but surely a bullet that expands and stops leaves more energy in the target than one that punches through?

please correct me if i'm wrong...

_kar.

Surely you want the bullet to expand really quicky, leaving no exit wound at all?

Not sure, but surely a bullet that expands and stops leaves more energy in the target than one that punches through?

please correct me if i'm wrong...

_kar.

Momentum is waht is transfered in collisions not kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is transformed into other forms of energy mostly thermal. There is notghing wrong with a bullets exiting. A bullet with more penetration would have put Michiel Pratt dowwn much sooner than the 9mm bullets that lacked pentration did.

Whitworth, I was not advocting the 454 or 475 for social work. I was repling to the comment made by Slim60 that he would not want to use a handgun against an angry bear.

475 that ____ sure got my attention..you have obviously honed your shooting skill
to a greater degree than most on here ..me for sure..id have to know more about the true nature of these bears before id hunt one with any gun..we have one killed in early 20th century in a museum here.. now im 6 ft 2 and that thing had to be close to 11 or 12 ft tall...
jus aint no way id hunt something like that in dense woods:) ive held my own against a few good men but not something like that...he wins cause i aint gonna be there..
kareir. what you said is the book on effective rnds..i like expansion too... my test for
any rnd or gun is one i see my self.. preferably in an deer or somethin with body wt. similar to a man..the 2by 4s and post etc is just what gets you attention. all got to be tested in the real thing..
there is so much written about it ,,id advise you to only settle for what you see in your on test also..i can tell you hydroshock ,corban and others can do some real damage..
right now im looking for a flat nosed 9 mm rnd at least 120 grn, to try.. cant seem to find one ..

Just on the subject of Penetration, a great test is if you get a plank, about 1" thick, and cut it into equal squares. You then stack the squares and tape 'em all together. shoot into one end of the planks, and then count how many squares the bullet punches through.

_Kar.

PS: at 50 yards: .22 WMR = 7 Squares, small hole
.270 WIN = 14 squares, all cracked down the middle except the first square.

475 that one shot kill on a moose and bear is a pretty good argument for accuracy or shot placement being the absolute necessary thing.. .. right now im at 200 yds w my 30 06 . quater size target..
im hoping to exstend that to 300 . but that will mean another scope im thinking and im not exactly made outa money.also im dealing w a hand tremor problem that may limit my progess..

jwp -- you know me and you know I am joking -- and you also know that my main carry gun is a M29 with a 3-inch barrel........:D

Gentlemen, when you are starting with a .475 caliber bullet, or .45, etc. you already have a large diameter wound channel, so expansion really isn't necessary -- but, penetration is and an expanding bullet will impede penetration. On large animals, I want two holes......

found anothe post in a place where nobody should notice the hole..i thought..
5 an a half inches deep an splintered the exit hole..lets just say i ll have to shoot something else from now on...love my little kel tec .380..