I just made a huge mistake. I started shooting a muzzleloader! :D I got the muzzleloader bug big time now! I got an old CVA Cougar .50 from a buddy of mine. Free ninety free. It was in real bad shape. The bore... well, it's not so good. I lapped the big stuff out, smoothed out the high spots really is all I did. I cleaned up the surface rust, smoothed, and polished everything and re-blued it. I fired my first shot with it out of a test rack (with the blast shield) with a patched ball and 70gr of 777. Anyway, to shorten up a long story, I shot that thing all day with ball and conical bullets. Paper targets and steel targets out to 100 yards. I had to swab that thing every other shot to hold any kind of group. I want to get a good one now that I can reach out there with and use for a long time. I know nothing about manufacturers of muzzleloaders, just want a traditional, accurate, quality muzzleloader. Nostalgic. What are some recomendations, likes dislikes? I've been looking at T/C, Lyman, Cabelas, etc.

How traditional? In PA we had to hunt with flintlocks in muzzleloader season for years. They are a lot of fun but take a little work to master. The t/c and lyman are good quality guns for the price. If you want to hunt and take shots over 100yrs I would recommend an inline(knight or T/C). I prefer a patched round ball out of my 54 renegade flintlock. It shoots better than I do out to 75yrds and kills deer very well.

Russ

I'm not going to be shooting at game over 100 yds. I WILL be shooting at targets over 100 yards though. Traditional as in Percussion or Flint. No inlines though.

I would go( did go) with the t/c hawken or a renegade. The lyman great plains is also a really nice rifle. I would probably go with percussion first and then if you really get the bug, buy a flintlock. I take the flintlocks on nice days and percussion when it raining.
They are all a lot of fun.

Russ

Davide Pedersoli makes an 1865 Gibbs percussion target rifle that seems traditional enough. You can get really out there too. J. Cunard & Company sells an upgrade lock, serious sights. bullet sizers, and platinum lined nipples. They also sell Rigby and Alex Henry barrels. Henry rifling is modified hexagonal rifling. Only Whitworth rifles have the hexagonal rifling. The Pedersoli "Whitworth" rifle doe's not. English long range competition rifles normally use long paper patched bullets and the rifling in the barrel is very fast. They are truly long range muzzleloaders. Here's a link. http://www.lrml.org/technical/rifles/pedersoli.htm

I prefer a patched round ball out of my 54 renegade flintlock. It shoots better than I do out to 75yrds and kills deer very well.

Russ

Hey Russ,

Care to share what sort of load you feed that .54 Renegade? Moreover, are you using the stock 1:48 twist or the replacement 1:66 roundball barrel? I'd be quite interested in hearing what works for you. :)

msj

Hi,
All three of my renegades have factory barrels 1:48, 90gn 2F with a .15 patch and a round ball alway seem to shoot well for me. In the percussion I use 70gn 777 with a felt wad over the powder and the round ball. I am not real picky about accuracy but both loads seem to shoot as well as I can at 50 yards.

Russ

In my Renegade I have long used a 110 grain volume equivalent of Pyrodex "P" with a 535 swedged RB's and a .015 to .020 patch. It loads tight getting it started but goes down bore easy once started. The 54 has a groove diameter of about .565 and a thick tight patch with a 535 ball shoots well and does 3 inches or less at 100 yards. I tried .530 balls and different patches when I first got 30 years ago it but it shot better with .535's. If you use BP, stick with 3F with RB as it shoots better fouls less and yields better velocity vs same load of 2F. I only us 2F or RS in it with conicals.

Another fine rifle out there is the Lyman Trade rifle. Mine is a .54 with a 28" barrel that has a 1 in 48" twist, and it shoots round balls just fine. Last year was it's first season and it took 2 nice whitetails. The fine rifle it replaced was 16 year old .50 Lyman Deerstalker that was still shooting great, I would recomend either rifle.

In my Renegade I have long used a 110 grain volume equivalent of Pyrodex "P" with a 535 swedged RB's and a .015 to .020 patch...if you use BP, stick with 3F with RB as it shoots better fouls less and yields better velocity vs same load of 2F...

Interesting load. A load equivalent to 110gn of fffg, is my understanding of the load correct? That's quite a bit hotter than the max recommended load, yes? And, you've had no problems with it? Again, interesting. I have read on a few occasions where some prefer to use fffg in lieu of ffg - and for a number of the very reasons you cited, less fouling and more accuracy. I have also read where some feel fffg touches of just a wee bit quicker, too. I have always used ffg in my MLs, but have been toying with the idea of going to fffg. Since I am experienced only with ffg, is there some way to calculate equivalent loads between ffg and fffg, a chart perhaps? Also, like you, I load my .54, which is a 1:66 RB barrel, with a .015 patched .535 RB. It is tougher, no doubt, but it is a nice tight fit. Undoubtedly, I would welcome the benefits of fffg if I could, in fact, figure out an equivalent load to the 100gn ffg I am now using. Where would one start building a load with fffg in a .54 and how far can one safely go?

msj

Pressure wise it is not really a issue in a 54. With larger bore ML with RB's is it about impossible to overcharge. Especially with a slow twist (slower the twist, the lower the pressure) According to Lyman 2nd edition black powder handbook. 120 grain of FFF with a RB in a 1/60 is about 7000 PSI which is peanuts so to speak. In a 1/48 it is about 11000 PSI which is still not a problem. I see no benefit with FFF in 58 and bigger but 54 is the cross over caliber and still benefits for FFF with RB's and it should always be used with 50's and below with RB's. Also according to Lyman, my 110 grain (volume not weight) "P" load makes about 12000 PSI and well over 1700 FPS MV. TC rated Renegade at 120 grain FF with RB or Maxi and maxi load makes about 13000 PSI. With a modern side load 16000 PSI or so is a reasonable limit (moreso because of nipple blow back venting than burst concerns). On inlines pressures with some loads can approach 30,000 PSI (not using smokeless powders too). One more thing on limit, with your 1/66 twist and a RB with FFF even 140 or 150 grains would not be a issue. large bore slow twist ML are just about impossible to overload using black powder of Pyrodex with any reasonable load. going from 90 grains of FFF to 120 grain raise pressure from about 5000 PSI to 8000 PSI so 140 to 150 should not be a issue other than more fouling. BTW, I shoot a lot of 140 grain RB loads in mine gun years ago but I found tha accuracy with its faster twist suffered so I settled on 110 grain load. (I will not tell you right now about some of the heavy maxi ball loads I shoot then, they were extreme and recoil was a very serious issue)

If you just want to shoot all day at targets it would be cheaper to shoot a .40 caliber. Its a popular choice for competitive shooters. I dont think if it would be a very good choice for shooting over 100 yards though. If cleaning between shots is an issue I'd get a smoothbore and move up close. A Shultzen type rifle would be another choice for target shooting. It all depends on if you just want to have fun or if you want to compete in shooting matches. If you want to compete I'd get a false muzzle for loading. That would take up some of your shooting time however. I dont know but it seems that a large bore might beat the snot out of a .40 caliber in a turkey shoot when the wind is blowing. Since you won't be hunting you could use a very slow twist barrel in a largebore roundball rifle and shoot only heavy loads. Like Markkw says, it would need to be meticulously loaded however. If you want to compete I'd look at the different match rules and then decide which type of rifle would suit you best. The English match rifles are used in contests up to 750 yards or so if you want to get really far out there. These are all traditional rifles if you ask me. Depends on how you define traditional. You didnt mention a price range. I guess that might be important. I dont know if they still make it but there was a .40 caliber Cleland T/C Hawken "match rifle" that appeared only to have a 31 inch barrel instead of a 28 inch barrel and a better trigger. The logic being a longer sight radius for improved accuracy. That's a simple advantage. It would be cheaper to build from a kit but substitute a quality barrel and lock.and trigger You would have to inlet the lock and trigger yourself but you could have the barrel channel done elsewhere. Something like this if it is allowed here.... http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-41311.html I do not think that the barrel was meant for this type of rifle but it gives you an idea. If you want a plinking rifle, your decision will be much easier. A production .54 roundball rifle sounds like a good choice to me. Slow the barrel twist down to 1:100 and take your time loading and weighing the balls then you would have an even better "long distance" target rifle good for more than 100 yards. I would not be good for hunting however. It is all about what you really want to use the rifle for. Hope this helps. I tried.

I do agree on the smaller caliber being cheaper. I picked up a clean TC Hawken style 45 a while back and I have yet to shoot it but it will be cheaper to shoot. I have a few hundred balls and patches for it I just need to shoot it when I have some time and see what load it likes. I am hoping to find a RB load in the 50 to 70 grain charge range that shoots well. 45 is the smallest RB I would ever want to use on deer and even then I would limit shots to 75 yards or less and try to pick them well. I live on 12 acres in country with some woods and there is a lot of deer around here and may try the 45 out here for that this fall with RB's because it would not carry far if you missed. (even a 22 RF would easily out range it in max possible distance)

Thanks for all the replies and ideas. I went ahead and ordered a Lyman GPR .50 kit. The ol' CVA Cougar I was given is a great challenge that I am looking forward to. I read the article on the fire lapping process. I ordered some lapping compound from Beartooth, now I just need to find some Minie's that are 11-12 on the Brinell scale. I don't cast my own...yet. I plan on getting the Cougar to shoot sabots and Maxis for deer. I've got a 1:48 twist in it. The GPR is coming with a 1:66 for PRB's.

If it is not too late, you should consider a 54 GPR as it is a very effective caliber with RB's and will pretty much take anything withing its effective range.

I have Lyman Great Plains Rifles, Trade Rifles. T/C Hawken and T/C renegades all are flintlocks in .50 and .54 caliber. These are all great quality guns. My preference is for the Lyman rifles because they have a much better frizzen. When used with excellent flints, they shoot even in bad weather. All the best...
Gil

Hey 54cal, I just might have an excuse to get ANOTHER one, in .54! The funny thing about guns, ammo, hunting, and shooting, I can always justify to myself the "need" to get what I "want"! Like I said I'm new to BP and front stuffers, but I can already tell I'm going to have a whole lot of fun spending a whole bunch of money on this deal.:D

I have 50, a 54 and a 45 but the 54 was my first that I bought over 30 years ago and still my favorite. While black powder hunting has morphed into inline and sabots with pellets, I have stayed the course with patched RB's. When you get up to 54 cal and above RB's they kinda defy ballistics in that while they might not look impressive on paper compared to sabots, they are extremely effective on game and any reasonable range that you can connect with one, it will do the job. A 50 RB can be effective but a 54 will do better and add about 25 to 50 yards to effective range too if you can do your "windage" right. A 54 RB has never failed me in field and has very good penetration too. 58's are somewhat better killers yet but it gets tuff to get enough velocity for a fairly good RB trajectory. A 54 is kinda like the power of a 58 RB crossed with the velocity of a 50 RB.

...Pressure wise it is not really a issue in a 54...


Hey 54cal, thanks for a very informative replay to my question re: 2f and 3f loading. Most, if not all, of what you shared about pressures with different propellants and loads, etc, was all new to me. I guess I'll be doing some reading - and perhaps some experimenting, too. Thanks for the info.

msj

Hey 54cal, thanks for a very informative replay to my question re: 2f and 3f loading. Most, if not all, of what you shared about pressures with different propellants and loads, etc, was all new to me. I guess I'll be doing some reading - and perhaps some experimenting, too. Thanks for the info.

msj

I am from the "old school" when it comes to ML's and not into pellets and sabots because to me it just is not primitive hunting. Large caliber ML guns with slow twists and RB's have low pressures and are tuff to overload to point of failure with "reasonable" loads. Generally you would limit 3F charge to about 2 x bore diameter with a RB as a starting point for 50 cal and below (ie, a 50 x 2 would be 100 grains) but 54's and 58 can digest a lot more powder with a RB and a slow twist and it is more a accuracy thing than anything as you up the charge. As I stated earlier, 3F does foul less than 2F and will yeild more velocity per charge weight in 54 and under calibers for what it is worth. When you find the right load (powder, patch and ball diameter combo) you should be able to do 3 inches or better at 100 yards in a good barrel and 2 inches is not unheard of. ( use a tight combo) Many that shun RB's never took the time to shoot them and find right combo for gun in use or used 54 cal RB's and bigger on big game. I might add that even with reduced loads a 54 is still very effective on game so do not feel that you need to burn 120 grain for FFF to take a deer. Extra powder give you more velocity and helps trajectory to extend range but even a 70 or 80 grain FFF 54 cal RB load is quite deadly.

54cal, to be true, I have an inline as well as my flintlocks; and I have killed not a few deer with it. However, I certainly don't consider it a "primative" weapon. It is simply too easy to use. The ignition is protected, it is scoped, it is certainly light weight (relatively speaking) and it is loaded with pellets and saboted, copper jacketed bullets. It kills no less t than my 30.06 and .270 centerfires. My flintlocks, however, demand more of me; then demand more "involvement" on my part, more care, more attention. And, from presonal experince, I know those very same flintlocks kill deer just as dead as those centerfires do. But there is a difference. And that difference is me and my involvement. I have to be on top of it all. I have to care for my weapon. I have to protect it and mother it. When I do so, it'll will be ready to perform for me when called to do so - and it will perform adequately for the task at hand. Using a flintlock gives me a sense of...of....well, deeper particaption in the hunt - that I did it myself (admittedly, only so to speak.) I guess it is the same way I feel about archery. I have compounds and have killed my share of deer with them. However, my favrorite experiences are with recurves. I have missed more shots with recurves than with compounds, but I "feel" more accomplishment with the bare-bow recurves. Go figure. Just me, I guess. I am looking forward to the arrival of a new .62cal smoothbore. I love squirrel hunting. And now, well, now I expect it'll be even more fun, more relaxed, more involved with the .62 stuffed with whatever load proves to be suitiable w/#6 shot. It promises to be an enjoy hunting season to be sure. :)

msj

Yes, inlines are more protected for ignition than a cap lock and certainly more than a flintlock but that is the whole "thing" about primitive hunting. I have shot a flint a good bit in years past though I have never hunted with one, I would if need be. (I would like to have a 32 or 34 inch barreled slow twist 54 or 58 cal flintlock) I have never had a miss fire with a cap in the field even in very wet conditions. And again while sabots have impressive ballistics, if I was hunting big dangerous game with one shot, it would be a 54 or 58 with a big heavy conical slug and it will hit far harder than any sabot bullet. There is the proven performance of a larger caliber heavy bullet that tend that defies ballistics in game performance. Heck I would even choose a 58 cal RB here over a sub caliber sabot round. (a 50 with a full sized conical is deadly too) I picked up a 294 grain minne ball mold for my 45 I plan to try out this summer or fall.

Lyman also makes a Great Plains Hunter rifle with a 1:32 twist rate meant to shoot only maxi-ball type projectiles. I thought about buying that rifle at one point. The GPR has 1:60 twist rate so it would be best in .50 caliber. That's a little fast for a .54 caliber.

Lyman also makes a Great Plains Hunter rifle with a 1:32 twist rate meant to shoot only maxi-ball type projectiles. I thought about buying that rifle at one point. The GPR has 1:60 twist rate so it would be best in .50 caliber. That's a little fast for a .54 caliber.

I think it is a a little "fast" for a 50 if you plan to push loads to max velocity. I think 1 in 66 would be better for a RB 50. My take on it anyway...