I am in the market for a small caliber, compact, lightweight handgun for self defense and critters. The smaller the better. I will carry this gun on hiking trips, fishing excursions, and overnight camping trips. I have been looking at the Walther p22 and the Ruger LCP .380. I want something extremely reliable. Accuracy is only important at close range. My only stipulation is that it penetrate human flesh if necessary. I have heard horror stories about
.380 caliber being sub-par if the gun barrel is short. PLEASE HELP, any advice and or pics are greatly appreciated.

I carry a Taurus model 94 22LR with a two inch barrel when I am fishing or just messing around in the backwoods. This small frame gun fits just right in my back pocket and you can carry a boat load of 22LR rounds in the other pocket. The gun is an eight shot and Loaded with the Aguilla hyper velocity rounds it will definately penetrate human flesh. Being a 22 LR it is cheap to feed and is relatively accurate out to 20 yards or so. I carry a couple of speed loaders to make loading easy. Just my humble opinion. But if I am expecting any major trouble, I would have my S&W 642 38 special 2 inch (as shown in my avatar above) in my pocket. But the 22 is just fun to shoot.

why look for small cal. .. what you described would allow you to carry
the small 40s an 45s..in the woods you never sure what you gonna run into..
mabe a mad charlais bull or something..i watched one of them take over a sale barn one day.. so id be huntin a tree no matter what i had..but a 38 or .380 an such are about the most powerful smalls that i would still call a small cal.of course thats up to individual perception. good luck.

Welcome to the forum RM33. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

Like Joden I carried a small 22 revolver for years, a four inch S&W j frame kit gun then a Rossi stainless the same size. Now that times seem a little more dangerous I carry a Taurus 38 Special snubby loaded with Speer 125 grain Gold dots. This little under 20 ounce gun is accurate at close ranges and just disappears in an Uncle Mikes pocket holster in a front jeans pocket. There is no safety to worry about on a revolver, no clip to loose and it's always ready to go. The learning curve to shoot it is very short.

Here's what one looks like.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/Taurus38.jpg

This is the pocket holster it fits in. The holster stays in your pocket if you need to get it out. It's shown here by the little J frame size 22 revolver I carried for years in the woods.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/Taurusandpocketholster.jpg

Here's my old hunting partner's 40 S&W Taurus compact side by side with the little snubby revolver. Notice all the buttons and switches on the semi-auto. Way more stuff than I want to fool with if I need a firearm in a hurry and way more stuff to think about to get a gun in action.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/faucettb/Preditor%20masters/100_7553.jpg

If your new to shooting handguns I always recommend a 22 to start with. It allows you to learn to shoot at a reasonable cost and the low recoil makes handgun proficiency much easier to obtain. For a learning gun get a four inch barrel version with adjustable sights.

my 2 cents.

Numerous guns fit this description - more added every day because it's a very common need.

A Kel-Tec or other 32 would do, as would many 380s and even some 9mm guns.

You can get a 22LR or 22WMR revolver small enough to be made into a belt buckle, and there are tiny little semi-autos also. I have and carry a now-discontinued Jennings J-22 (that I had to work over to get it to be reliable) as a fishing gun, but would not recommend it for self-defense.

All in all, however, the suggestion of a 38 revolver is probably best of all. Small and light enough to carry unobtrusively, mild enough to plink with but powerful enough to do the job on man or beast if need be. Ammo choices are legion, and all are good.

I like the idea of .38 snubby hammerless. I'll have to check a few of those out. Weight is a major issue for me though. The first gun I used for the above stated purpose was a Davis industries p380. This gun was a little heavy but it did the trick until the reciever cracked. I guess this can be expected from a Davis though. I replaced the .380 with a Ruger SP101 .357 mag, love this gun. The only problem with the Ruger is that about day 3 on the backpacking trail it feels more like I'm carrying a brick than a gun. Thanks for the advice so far. Keep it coming, I greatly appreciate it. Anyone have any experience with that Ruger LCP .380?

The only experience I have with the new Ruger LCP 380 is the WAITING LISTS I run into everywhere! Must say something.

he makes a good case for the revolver.. but go S&W or something on the gun .. id never buy cheap again.. if its an imitation of a S&W just go on an buy the smithe to start with..
plus you always got the resale value when you go top line.. jmo
not saying all cheaper revolvers are junk .. they are not. but some are pretty junkie..

Since the early 70's I've been carring a OMC Back up in a shoot through Tex Shoemaker holster in my back pocket. While with the P.D. I used it to qualify on the snubby pistol course, and never had a failure to fire or a failure to feed. even after over a 1000 rounds, it still functions without a bobble. Note: (OMC is now AMT.)

Some of the S&W revolvers out there are less than a pound, unloaded! They'd be a pure joy to pack, but a pure pain to shoot much, though.

Back when they introduced the first .22 in that line, they had the demonstration gun suspended from a small helium balloon! Brother, THAT raised some eyebrows.

One of the original Charter Arms revolvers would do ya, also. They came in .32, .38 and .44 Special. My own Bulldog .44 weighs under a pound and 12 ounces, loaded and in its holster! I can wear it and truly not know it's there. Here it is...

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c170/RockyRaab/Bulldog.jpg

I have 2 P22s. They are great guns. Pretty accurate and great to learn on. They are picky about their ammo though. Not much good for anything besides targets, training and plinking when I am low on expendable ammo or income. If you dont have one, get one for the heck of it. I paid $250 NIB for each of mine and never thought twice about it.

But for what you want, you really cant beat a good old revolver. Really, it doesn't get any more reliable. I'm a bit dismayed that you didn't like the weight of the SP101. Its a great gun. I carry my 3" .357 Gp100 all over the place, even if it is a bit heavy. A much lighter option may be either the Taurus Ultra-Light Titanium or the Hy-Lite In Magnesium. They are at least a little cheaper than the S&W scandiums. Honestly, give me good old stainless any day over these new alloys.

If you have big hands or weak hands, a small auto might not be a great choice. Nothing against them, but they are very susceptible to limp-writsing or a bad grip. They require all the inertia they produce to cycle the action. That being said, I have giant hands and I really like the Ruger LCP. Can't find many, but $350 will get you one off gun broker. A little more than MSRP, but if you want it and you want it now, it might be worth it. I'm going to wait till they catch up with production. I also liked the Beretta ?Tomcat? in .32acp. Not bad for a little gun. I would be hesitant to go much smaller than the .380 for anything besides shooting paper and squirrels. Just an opinion. A well placed pebble would probably do the trick, but why worry about hitting the perfect spot. If you are going to make a hole, make a big one.

Where you are in the woods and looking for 2 and 4 legged defense, I probably wouldn't be caught with less than a .357 and in large game country, a 44 mag. But again thats just me.

To answer your question, Taurus makes some innovative revolvers at a good price, I would explore what they have to offer. But really, to me, it sounds like you have a great gun for the job already. Maybe try a new way to carry it??

Good luck.

During Upland season in PA I cannot legally carry a gun, other than my shotgun, larger than a .22. I have been carrying a S&W 317 Airlite; it only weighs 11oz. loaded.
Other than that, I have a Taurus titanium .38 snubbie that is very light also - got it from a friend who is ill and can no longer shoot.
Both are easy carries.
Pete

I'd suggest a MkII Ruger semiauto .22 with 5.5" bull barrel~have to find one used (wouldn't recommend the MkIII with its idiot mag safety thing)...10rds, utterly reliable...accurate with selected loads, and easy to carry.

Back in the day we'd practice shooting empty soup cans tied in against haybales~the goal was to keep all 10 shots in the can at 20' as fast as possible; that's good training :)

Load it up with whatever shoots the best~especially some of the hypervelocity stuff~and you'll have a good time in the woods...if you want to go with a .22~you didn't say if you were in bear country; you'd probably want something more.

Do you own any handguns or have you been trained in their use?

The only experience I have with the new Ruger LCP 380 is the WAITING LISTS I run into everywhere! Must say something.

I am still trying to figure out what it is saying!!! A Bersa is 100 X the gun, in my opinion.

Jim

The only experience I have with the new Ruger LCP 380 is the WAITING LISTS I run into everywhere! Must say something.

Heheh. I think it really just says there's a big demand for pocket guns, and people are excited to see a name like Ruger on one.

"but if you want it and you want it now"

More like, if you want it and you want it in less than a year's time. Seriously. Those LCPs are so backordered, it's insane.

I'm going to second the statement that pocket autos are really picky about how tight you hold them. The NAA Guardian .32 ACP and .25 NAA frame is too small for me to hold well enough, because I can't get both my middle and ring finger on the grip. It just wouldn't feed anything reliably because I couldn't hold it well enough. I scaled up to the .380 Guardian, and it's been great.

There's been a lot of banter here on which is better for a small self defense gun. Is an auto or revolver the best. I like the revolver because it's simpler and there's no magazine nor safety. It's a matter of pointing and shooting. They hide well in a pocket and seem very reasonable to own.

One of the folks above mentioned get the S&W and they are very fine guns, but Taurus and Charter Arms also build fine guns. I spent lots of years tuning and working on handguns and especially Smith and Wessons and the little Taurus I carry has an out of the box trigger that most folks pay a gun smith good money to make an S&W J frame feel like.

The little Charter Arms Rocky mentioned above are simple and reliable. For the folks that want to carry a semi-auto there's nothing wrong with that, but after teaching self defense courses for several years I've found it much easier for a person to learn to use a revolver than become proficient with a semi-auto.

Carrying one type of gun or another really depends on how much time you are willing to put into learning to shoot it well enough to protect yourself. For me that means the littel 38 snubby. For each of you it depends on what you really like and feel comfortable with.

If your setting up your wife or daughter or son with a self defense gun and they are not a diehard shooter then I sure recommend a small frame revolver. I also recommend that any new shooter start out with a 22 to learn to shoot with. This offers a no recoil way to get a person started shooting. Learning to shoot a light self defense gun in 32, 38, 9mm or 40 caliber is almost impossible. Start them out with something that is easy to shoot and those skills will pass along to a centerfire. It's also much less expensive to become a passable shot with a 22 than a centerfire.

Just keep in mind that whatever you get you need to shoot it to become proficient. Taking a concealed carry course is a dandy way to do that and a really good investment in your safety.

I like the idea of .38 snubby hammerless. I'll have to check a few of those out. Weight is a major issue for me though. The first gun I used for the above stated purpose was a Davis industries p380. This gun was a little heavy but it did the trick until the reciever cracked. I guess this can be expected from a Davis though. I replaced the .380 with a Ruger SP101 .357 mag, love this gun. The only problem with the Ruger is that about day 3 on the backpacking trail it feels more like I'm carrying a brick than a gun. Thanks for the advice so far. Keep it coming, I greatly appreciate it. Anyone have any experience with that Ruger LCP .380?

Well I own three Keltec's and from what I've read on the Keltec forums the Ruger has some bugs to be worked out, the new P3AT's seem to be pretty trouble free after many upgrades. I would be leery about buying a first generation semi auto, from any manufacturer, check out the PF9 in hard chrome I have one and it's small light and very powerful for such a small package just make sure if you do buy a Keltec that you find out the latest serial numbers to get all the latest upgrades, new trigger frame ect.

Tom j.
.

I have owned probably 40 semi auto handguns. Finally decided they are not for me. But, the only one I ever had that never malfunctioned with any ammo. Was a Sig P230. So if I wanted what I consider the ultimate in reliable, light, small, concealable, I would get a Sig P232 today.

berretta tomcat semi-auto in 32 acp--small light--best I can find for the money

I like the 25acp and 32acp calibers. The Taurus PT 25 is an awesome DAO gun holding 10 rounds. The Firestorm/Bersa 32, resembling a Walther PP, is also very good, holding 10 rounds as well. I own and thouroughly enjoy both.The Taurus cost $250.00 and the Firestorm/Bersa was $299.99. They are each very accurate, mechanically sound and reliable. And, both will penetrate human flesh, any other kind of living tissue and non living material. The recoil is very soft on each gun,allowing you to maintain target acquistion and accuracy with 1 shot or multiple shots fired. Remember, it's not the gun,but the gunner.Good luck on your search.

I like the 25acp and 32acp calibers. The Taurus PT 25 is an awesome DAO gun holding 10 rounds. The Firestorm/Bersa 32, resembling a Walther PP, is also very good, holding 10 rounds as well. I own and thouroughly enjoy both.The Taurus cost $250.00 and the Firestorm/Bersa was $299.99. They are each very accurate, mechanically sound and reliable. And, both will penetrate human flesh, any other kind of living tissue and non living material. The recoil is very soft on each gun,allowing you to maintain target acquistion and accuracy with 1 shot or multiple shots fired. Remember, it's not the gun,but the gunner.Good luck on your search.


Speaking of Bersa, I also like the thunder in 380 small light very reliable relatively inexpensive and with the Cor-Bon 90 gr. +P or Golden Saber 102 gr. deadly! Check out what they have to say on their website.

Tom j.

Speaking of Bersa, I also like the thunder in 380 small light very reliable relatively inexpensive and with the Cor-Bon 90 gr. +P or Golden Saber 102 gr. deadly! Check out what they have to say on their website.

Tom j.

I agree,Tom. I once owned the Bersa 380 in Duotone, had some custom wood grips for it and enjoyed it tremendously. It always funtioned 100%. One does not always need to use the 'ole hand cannons to "get it done."

A little trivia question: What make and caliber gun was isued by His Majesty's Secret Service(that British, for all you moderators and admins out there-just kidding)to the one and only JAMES BOND,who always proved that "bigger isn't always bigger" and that is easy to conceal a gun in either a tux, in an Aston Martin or while in the bed:D

i personally love my walther p22, its accurate as ****, and never had a problem with it. only thing is, i would not ever use a 22 for self defense. it certainly will kill someone, but that would be hours later in the ER. it simply lacks anything even remotely symbolic of stopping power. cant advise on a 380 as i have never shot one. i do know that its pretty much a low power 9mm though and with defense rounds i supose it would do the job

i have the .380 keltec.. shoots plenty hard but no matter what gun you have to be able to hit what you want to ..groin ,heart or head, for me it would depend on what i percieve his offence potential is..

Here's a link that will show what a 380 with the right load will do. Check it out and let me know what you think.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209241627/0

Tom j.

my fiundings about the same.. i wish i could use the corbon 90 but alas its not smooth enough for a protection gun.. likew i said the flat nosed winchester has shown me what i want to see in my lil gun..it knock the fool out of anything i hit ..and has penetrated 5 inches in cedar post..
to be sure it may not be the best for everyone but its what i want if i have to start slinging lead at a bad guy. if he can take that flat nosed smack and penetration and the ones coming behing it .. he ll outgun me..at 10 ft i ll just put one in his head,,first mabe
with all this stuff about people walkin thru handgun rds .. kinda makes me think thats the way to go . a head is pretty big that close in.:)

my fiundings about the same.. i wish i could use the corbon 90 but alas its not smooth enough for a protection gun.. likew i said the flat nosed winchester has shown me what i want to see in my lil gun..it knock the fool out of anything i hit ..and has penetrated 5 inches in cedar post..
to be sure it may not be the best for everyone but its what i want if i have to start slinging lead at a bad guy. if he can take that flat nosed smack and penetration and the ones coming behing it .. he ll outgun me..at 10 ft i ll just put one in his head,,first mabe
with all this stuff about people walkin thru handgun rds .. kinda makes me think thats the way to go . a head is pretty big that close in.:)

How many grains is that Winchester, Buffalo Bore makes a really nice flat nose, think they call it +P but there really are no official standards for +P in the 380.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=188768

Tom j.

the one i use is 95 grn..as with any aoto loader you got to put a rnd in it that it really likes..
for me that was dpx corbon 80 grn until i got to looking at the damage i could do with that flat nosed rd id been practicing with..man its coming hard and being flat its like using a ball bat on
impact.. still i ll look at that buffoloe rnd and see if my gun is dependable with it..thats the absolute necessity with any protection pistol. never had one gitch using those two rds
ive shot two holes thru an 5 + inch cedar post and last time it left a split for me to hide on exit..you couldn t have surprised me more the first time i shot one of those post..i went over there with a pencil to stick it in an see how deep it went..
now my gun being still reletively new i use a dab of grease at apprpriate places ..smooth as silk.. both the sig p225 an .380..good luck

I like a handgun that is simple, in a caliber that starts with the number 4...and is reliable...having said that, the man that is trained and practices with a .22 is better armed than the man who has a .45 and never fires it. For general use it is hard to fault a revolver and if you can have only one....then a .38 is a good choice. I have a freind who has armed his family with Markarovs....all smoothed....they are cheap to shoot and inexpensive to buy...so they practice a lot...that is the key....good shooting

Charter arms has a 12 oz concealed hammer 38 that would suit your needs. Check their site for more lightweight guns.

the one i use is 95 grn..as with any aoto loader you got to put a rnd in it that it really likes..
for me that was dpx corbon 80 grn until i got to looking at the damage i could do with that flat nosed rd id been practicing with..man its coming hard and being flat its like using a ball bat on
impact.. still i ll look at that buffoloe rnd and see if my gun is dependable with it..thats the absolute necessity with any protection pistol. never had one gitch using those two rds
ive shot two holes thru an 5 + inch cedar post and last time it left a split for me to hide on exit..you couldn t have surprised me more the first time i shot one of those post..i went over there with a pencil to stick it in an see how deep it went..
now my gun being still reletively new i use a dab of grease at apprpriate places ..smooth as silk.. both the sig p225 an .380..good luck

Drop me a line and let me know how you like em, I'll do the same with the Winchester's.

Tom j.

its not at gods country they got 2 .380 rnds niether what i shoot.. may have to order on line ,,ill see whats in some little outa the way stores i know about..good luck

its not at gods country they got 2 .380 rnds niether what i shoot.. may have to order on line ,,ill see whats in some little outa the way stores i know about..good luck

Say what 380 the gun did you use on that post?

Tom j.

keltec 3pat .380..

In my opinion the new ruger LCP is a very nice handgun had one at work and sold it retail 299.99 but they are very hard to get right now. Also consider the Bersa thunder 380 a nice handgun for the money.

My choices for the same criteria:

Keltec P3At with Buffalo Bore
keltec P32 with Silvertips
NAA Black Widow .22 magnum
NAA Minimaster .22 magnum

The keltecs are first choice because they are autoloaders and require little thought to operate, and they reload quickly. Plus, a hot .380 is a killer, and don't give me any of that "4" stuff!
The NAAs hold fewer rounds, and have less energy. But they are very small, all stainless, yet the grips are big enough (try one). I can load snakeshot in the first two chambers, which will ruin the day of anything short of a bear.
The Minimaster has real adjustable sights.

I would not settle for .22LR. It's just not enough for the intended purpose.

Have backpacked/hunted Colorado for around 50 yrs. Used my Charter Arms Pathfinder .22 for many years with no problem. Thought I needed something bigger so got a brand new Taurus 85f .38 snubbie. Fired 15 shots at the range, gun went out of time, could spin the cylinder, in fact. Think I will get a compact 9mm now, the XD I had was accurate, light and reliable. Just my .02 worth, have fun.

Your criteria seems to fit the ultralight snubbies pretty well. I've read a lot of comments about the Walther 22s being a pain to reassemble and having at least some early production mechanical problems. S&W and Taurus both make well respected wheelguns. I'd take a long hard look at what they currently offer. You can get one in .357 Mag, carry it with .38 SPL and keep some .357 Mag handy in the event that someone creeps you out and you're worried they might come back around your campsite or wherever. Best of luck to ya.

PS -- If you do go with a .380 you could load it with FMJ for better penetration. Will still be a bit marginal, but the point is to have something viable at hand if things get dicey, so buy what you will actually carry. Bersas are good, but perhaps a tad bigger than what you're after. I haven't fired any of the new micro .380s, but don't doubt that they would have a tendency to jam if limp-wristed. They're really pushing the design envelope with those little guns. And I must add that although some folks apparently find a good one, AMTs are generally regarded as a collection of mechanical problems in the shape of a gun.

surprised no one mentioned the seven shot 22 mag revolvers in titanium, etc... I shot the kel tecs and had no problems in 380 or 9mm... I have had a ruger mark 2 22 lr for so long I would not hesitate to carry it for most uses including woods walkng defense.. an ocular or moustache shot or two will deter an attacker of the human kind and the accuracy is such that you can practice and kill game if hyou need or want to... carry the extra clips fully loaded and in a pocket.. I have about six or eight of them ... ten shots to the clip... I also would not hesitate to use a snubbie for defense, but there is much to be said for practice cheaply and accuracy and familiarity gained... if it is a camping trip, and the goal is a small fairly light gun it is the 22 ruger that gets the nod... if the 22 mag is acccurate and you practice with it then it is also a good choice... the kel tec was not a shoot a snake at fifteen yards kind of gun, it was a mulitple shot shoot a silhouette at ten to fifteen yards kind of gun for me... except for if you get really good with it and confident, the 380 or 38 is what I would choose..
the exception could be the ruger single action 32 mag single six.. I have one and am about to get closer to it... It seems to be light enough powerful enough, accurate enough and dependable enough that it would fit the bill nicely, and do everthing with applomb.. and it does handle exceptionately well... it may become my walk around in the woods gun and camping gun before long, but I am not there in my relationship- with it .. yet... I bet a lot of folks would consider the 32 mag a perfect cartridge for your question's answer, especially in one of the DA platforms... I would consider that as well especially with adj sights or a laser built in the handle etc for accurate shooting as necessary... BTWay : the laser will accelerate the learning curve for you as well and can turn an inherently hard to shoot accurately gun into a really accurate arm for you... and the red pulsing dot on a chest seems to disenchant a miscreant with the idea of doing any harm ... and if not... just squeeze the trigger whilet he dot is where you want it... I would also think the pulsating red dot of a laser on a human threat's crotch would win hearts and minds, so to speak .. lOL
dk

I like the bersa thunder 380. It seems like a great gun for a good price. I've been packing a russian built makarov in 380 acp for a couple days and like it alot. I plan on buying a bersa myself since the Mak actually is my fathers. As for snubby .38s, I have owned 3. 2 by taurus and 1 smith. Taurus number one was the best one since it was light and could be shot single action. Taurus number 2 was DOA but had a really long heavy trigger pull. My final snubby is a smith 637. The smith is light and the trigger is by far the best. What's bad is that the thing hits consistantly right to point of aim and I hate that. Therefore I don't carry it much. I would rather hit with a 380 acp than miss with a .38 special. The bersa has a rear sight that can be adjusted side to side unlike a fixed sight 38. CZ also makes a 380, I think it's the CZ83.

Thanks for all the info guys.
I pretty much have made the decision to go with th .38 snubbie. Thanks for all the advice. I must say it has helped a lot. I do need advice on which one to buy though. I looked at those Charter Arms .38's the 12 oz. gun with the concealed hammer. It seems to be right up my alley but how is the quality? I've never owned a Charter Arms so I want to be sure it is a good quality firearm. Anyone have any other suggestions on .38 hammerless pistols. To me smaller and lighter is better. I'm still carrying my SP101 w/.357 mag hollowpoints and it gets a bit heavy after a few days on the trail. I want something lightweight, easy to hide, and has great durability.

I agree with faucettb, the 38 snubby. Tauras is the one my wife carries, the ulta-light. I brew my own shot loads as the commercial one are laughable on a LARGE snake. It will double as a CCW gun as well.;)
I prefer SS and alloy personaly.:)

RM33
If a SP101 gets heavy on a packing trip - all I can say is leave some of the other junk your carrying behind! I wear mine on the hip 24/7 and it's never been a problem! Heck I don't even know it's there most the time! Anything you get unless it one of those super light weight guns is going to feel that way. Keep the SP101!!

My little NAA .22 mag is nice and small, with hollow points it does some damage, great little gun.7423

Gunnut45/454,

The problem is that I can't wear the gun on my hip most of the time when I am hiking. I live in an area where most of the state parks and trails won't let you carry a firearm on the trail. So this leaves me with one option in the summer. Put it in my pack. I keep it in an easily accesible pocket but, I still have to keep it in the pack. Also, the terrain I usually hike in not very level, many many uphill battles here. Every extra ounce is an ounce to much. I am very carefull not to carry any extra weight so it's not like i'm out there with my boombox, my air matress, and an extra anvil just in case. I hear what your saying though. The ruger in a great gun but if I can shed a few extra ounces or even a pound I would be very happy.

Thanks for all the info guys.
I pretty much have made the decision to go with th .38 snubbie. Thanks for all the advice. I must say it has helped a lot. I do need advice on which one to buy though. I looked at those Charter Arms .38's the 12 oz. gun with the concealed hammer. It seems to be right up my alley but how is the quality? I've never owned a Charter Arms so I want to be sure it is a good quality firearm. Anyone have any other suggestions on .38 hammerless pistols. To me smaller and lighter is better. I'm still carrying my SP101 w/.357 mag hollowpoints and it gets a bit heavy after a few days on the trail. I want something lightweight, easy to hide, and has great durability.

My $0.02 on Charter Arms:

I've never shot one, never owned one. However, we had a couple of the .44 Special bulldogs in the shop for a while. I can't think of a way to word this better than "they didn't feel like a serious gun." As if they weren't made by people who were serious about making a quality firearm. The ones we had wouldn't always work if you slowly pulled the trigger in DA fire mode. If you pulled the DA trigger fast, it worked fine, and it worked fine taking your time with SA trigger pull.

I've owned several "cheap guns" in the past, and have regretted it. Based on those bulldogs, Charter Arms just strikes me as falling within the category of guns too cheaply made. There is such a thing as too much compromise for the sake of low cost.

So, I'd recommend going with a Taurus. I think they still make ultralight .38s.