Hi all I need your advice on some thing technical. I recently bought an old but unused .30-06 bolt action rifle made by E. J. Churchill, gun makers from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.shootersforum.com/ /><st1:City w:st=London</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">England</st1:country-region>. It is built on the Military Mauser 98 action. It takes seven rounds in the magazine. Year of make is 1941 and it was most probably made for the British army in the world war II. The rifle is drilled and tapped for a scope mounting.

I took this rifle to the firing range to test fire it with the open sights. It has a V-notch sight with a fixed 100 metres, alongwith 200 and 300 metres flip up leaves. I fired Winchester Super speed 180 grain rounds. I used the 100 metre sight only. The problem is the bullet did not drop more than two inches from 100 metres to 550 metres (with the same 100 metre sight). It practically flew flat to the target!!! None of my friends would believe it as the result defies the standard ballistic charts that atleast I have seen for any .30-06 rifle cartridge. I tried some other rounds such as Sako Hammerhead (180 grain) and a couple of East European rounds. I then asked a senior member of our rifle club to try it out. The results were the same.

My question is that
1. Can a .30-06 shoot with such a flat trajectory? Or is there some thing wrong with the rifle?
2. Has any one heard of this make or tried one made by them?



P.S. If Mike is reading this Hello MikeG how have you been? (Mike has helped me out with my shotgun queries in the past)
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OK, the laws of pyhsics rule over this like any other object and any other cartridge. For instance if you place the rifle perfectly level on a level range and drop a rock at the same instant the rifle is fired, the rock will hit the ground at the same time as the bullet. Gravity is gravity. The only way I know that would be possible is for the round to be still going up at 100 meters, and on the way down at 500. I did learn though that the m2 ball ammo with was the us standard in 1940 was a 150 grain bullet which would have a different trajectory that a 180. What I'd do is check all along the bullets flight path and see how the arc goes.

I think I will do that next once I have bases and rings for my rifle and it has been scoped. I only tried it at 100 metres, 200 metres and then jumped to 550.

E.J. Churchill is still around. You could send them a note with questions. Your rifle is a modified '98. Many manufacturers used surplus actions to build sporters. The action is a 1941, the modification could have been done up into the 1960's. If you send Churchill all the info you have, they could shed more light on the origin of the rifle. I would have to say I doubt it was built by/for the Brits in WW2, 30.06 is a U.S. cartridge, the Brits used .303. It was not common practice to re-arsenal or convert an enemies arms for use in your army. Parts, ammo, would be an issue. 30.06 was a common sporter conversion because of the case dimentions. No bolt modifications were needed. Jim

The only way I know that wouyld be possible is for the round to be still going up at 100 meters, and on the way down at 500.
Don't rifles have two points of zero for that very reason? As an example, one point of zero is when the bullet is rising up to the line of sight, and the second point is when it drops back into the line of sight.

I found this picture at the following link, and it describes what I was talking about.
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/ballistics_0303/index.html


http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/RSballistics_0303A.jpg

I think that means I can count out the testing at all ranges between 100 metres and 500 metres. I did send all this information to Churchill in the beginning. Reason was that the rifle caliber on the side of the barrel was not mentioned as .30-06. Instead it had the following inscription:

Cal .30 "2.49

The only reply I got from them was that it is a .30-06 indeed and its their way of writing it. .30 being the caliber and 2.49 inches being the length of the case. Rest of my questions were unanswered despite my frequent reminders. So I thought to post this problem here on the forum and get experts advice.

Don't clean the Pixie dust off of the rifle...

Can a .30-06 shoot with such a flat trajectory? Or is there some thing wrong with the rifle?
All I can say is if there is something wrong with it I hope mine go bad the same way.

Well you certainly pose an interesting question. There's just no getting around gravity and all bullets are stuck with following those rules. I'd have to say that it's something going on with your sight picture with the open sights, but without shooting the rifle myself I couldn't really say.

If you go over to Remingtons website they have ballistic tables for the 30-06 and you can take a look at what 180 grain factory bullets do in a chart like trickg posted. It will be interesting to see what happens when you get that rifle scoped. Did you ever figure out what scope bases you needed for it?

Here's Remington's web site.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/

You have a unique .30-06. Either it was not sighted in at 100 yards or the sights are shooting high. I do not have a .30-06 that can duplicate what you have described. Take care ...
Oberndorf

Physics is physics.....my vote is shooter error.

<center> http://www.hornady.com/graphics/index_pag_r1_c1.jpg
(Print) (javascript:window.print())
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<hr> Ballistics Calculation
</center> <center> <table class="body" border="2" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="500"> <caption>Input Variables</caption> <tbody><tr><td>Firearm type</td><td align="center">Rifle</td> <td>Sight Height</td><td align="center">2</td></tr> <tr><td>Bullet Weight (grains)</td><td align="center">180</td> <td>Ballistic Coefficient</td><td align="center">.500</td></tr> <tr><td>Muzzle Velocity (fps)</td><td align="center">3000</td> <td>Temperature</td><td align="center">95</td></tr> <tr><td>Barometric Pressure (hg)</td><td align="center">27.00</td> <td>Relative Humidity</td><td align="center">78%</td></tr> <tr><td>Zero Range (yards)</td><td align="center">450</td> <td>Wind Speed (mph)</td><td align="center">0</td></tr> </tbody></table> </center> <center>

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><caption>Ballistics Table in Yards</caption><tbody><tr><td><table border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left"> 180 gr., .500 B.C.</td><td align="right">www.hornady.com</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border="2" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Range (yards)</td><td align="center">Muzzle</td><td align="center">50</td><td align="center">100</td><td align="center">200</td><td align="center">300</td><td align="center">400</td><td align="center">500</td></tr><tr><td>Velocity (fps)</td><td align="center">3000</td><td align="center">2918</td><td align="center">2837</td><td align="center">2680</td><td align="center">2528</td><td align="center">2382</td><td align="center">2240</td></tr><tr><td>Energy (ft.-lb.)</td><td align="center">3597</td><td align="center">3403</td><td align="center">3217</td><td align="center">2871</td><td align="center">2555</td><td align="center">2267</td><td align="center">2005</td></tr><tr><td>Trajectory (450 yd. zero)</td><td align="center">-2.0</td><td align="center">2.9</td><td align="center">6.8</td><td align="center">11.2</td><td align="center">10.9</td><td align="center">5.1</td><td align="center">-6.8</td></tr><tr><td>Come Up in MOA</td><td align="center">-2.0</td><td align="center">-5.5</td><td align="center">-6.5</td><td align="center">-5.4</td><td align="center">-3.5</td><td align="center">-1.2</td><td align="center">1.3</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></center><center>

The following table is provided as a "cheat sheet" that you can tape to your gun.
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><caption>Ballistics Table in Yards</caption><tbody><tr><td><table border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left"> 180 gr., .500 B.C.</td><td align="right">www.hornady.com</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td><table border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>Range (yards)</td><td align="center">Muzzle</td><td align="center">50</td><td align="center">100</td><td align="center">200</td><td align="center">300</td><td align="center">400</td><td align="center">500</td></tr><tr><td>Trajectory (450 yd. zero)</td><td align="center">-2.0</td><td align="center">2.9</td><td align="center">6.8</td><td align="center">11.2</td><td align="center">10.9</td><td align="center">5.1</td><td align="center">-6.8</td></tr><tr><td>Come Up in MOA</td><td align="center">-2.0</td><td align="center">-5.5</td><td align="center">-6.5</td><td align="center">-5.4</td><td align="center">-3.5</td><td align="center">-1.2</td><td align="center">1.3</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></center><hr> Ballistics Calculator v1.0
Hornady Mfg, Inc., by ARIS, Inc.

Well after messing with hornady's balistic calculator, this is the best I can come up with. I think 3000 fps is kinda hot for a 30-06, especially an old one. I had to decrease the barometric pressure by 2.5 and increase the heat to 95. We still have the 6.8" to deal with and I belive that could be accounted for by missuse of the bead placement with iron sights. By the way the zero range is 450 yards.

The ballistics can't lie. I can't test it for you to verify because I can't see a target without optics at 500 yds, much less hold a group with iron sights. When you get it scoped I think the tale will be told.

Coyote I don't think your going to get 3000 fps with a 180 grain bullet in an 06. 2750 is possible, 3000 is more like 300 Win mag velocity.

Bob, I don't think I am going to either. I was trying to see how close i could get to 100 yard zero and 500 yard zero by skewing all the numbers in my favor. The balistic calculator didn't care what the weight of the bullet was it just wanted to know what the bc was so if you could keep the bc up you could drop bullet weight. If I use a berger vld 210 with a bc of .640 I can get to 5" driven at 2500 fps

You're doing something wrong, because a .640 Bc and 3000 FPS and a 100 yard zero will drop more than 5" below the line of sight at 500 yards. Even at 10,000 feet of elevation with a 100 yard zero the drop below the line of sight is 38.5" ( 7 1/4 MOA)

I'm using a 475 yard zero to see how close to zero i can get at 100 and 500 yards. Thats what i mean by 100 and 500 zero jwp.

I think something is bad wrong with that gun. You probably ought to let me take care of it for you, hehe.
I'm gonna say shooter error with open sights 550 meters. I know I couldn't shoot open sights accurately that far. Ballistics and gravity don't lie. But there is likely something bad wrong with that gun. Let me know if you need me to take it off your hands.
Coyote, I use that ballistics resource from Hornady also. It is really nice for comparing load data and elevations at various distances.

The short answer is no, a 30-06 cannot do that. You have some sort of error going on, most likely sight picture, or simple shooter error. What kind of 3 or 5-shot groups are you shooting at 100 yards and at 500 yards, just out of curiosity?

Well, I just dug out my 2008 Hornady bullet and ammo catalog.

It shows their Light Magnum 30-06, 180 gr cartridge has a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps and at 500 yds the drop is 42.4" with a 200 yd zero.

Their standard loaded cartridge in 180 gr has a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps and a 500 yd drop of 51.3". The same loaded with their SST bullet has a drop of 48.7".

Something is haywire with a bullet having only 2" of drop between 100 meters and 550 meters.

Is it possible the range runs downhill a little? 38" in 500 meters would be hard to see maybe.

Woodwright, at first I thought you had it solved. But, wouldn't the bullet still fall the same amount if the sight were lined up the same whether shooting flat or downhill?

Woodwright & doctor duck, yes an incline could do the trick, but it would have to be really steep to do the trick.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm

I think something is bad wrong with that gun. You probably ought to let me take care of it for you, hehe.
I'm gonna say shooter error with open sights 550 meters. I know I couldn't shoot open sights accurately that far. Ballistics and gravity don't lie. But there is likely something bad wrong with that gun. Let me know if you need me to take it off your hands.
Coyote, I use that ballistics resource from Hornady also. It is really nice for comparing load data and elevations at various distances.

Thanks for the offer Sir, I'll stack it along with all the other ones I've had from whoever saw the Rifle. It could have been shooter error if I had tested it on the only. The senior guy I asked to test it to confirm used a Olympic standard Prone Shooter's Jacket and a sling which is tied to shooter arm and connected to the rifle through a hook which is attached to the front sling swivel. So maybe I could have made a mistake but not that guy.

The Brownels tech support wasn't much help. They dont have such a base nor did they offer any custom bases in their reply.

Friends, the problem is that the same make of rifle (Churchill) on their website www.ejchurchill.com (http://www.ejchurchill.com) costs around 13,000 pounds sterling. They did reply to my initial queries but when I qouted the serial number of the rifle, they just stopped answering.

One thing is for certain. It drops hogs well and I would just love to scope it to take it to the mountains for the Wild Goats and Rams.

The short answer is no, a 30-06 cannot do that. You have some sort of error going on, most likely sight picture, or simple shooter error. What kind of 3 or 5-shot groups are you shooting at 100 yards and at 500 yards, just out of curiosity?

That's exactly the reason why I put up this question. There was only one guy I know who told me to hold on to the rifle coz he had one made by Sako in .30-06 doing the same thing.

My group sir at 100 metres on the bench with a small sand bag to keep it stable was two inches. At 550 metres it was around nine and a half inches. Not good though for practical shooting but consider the distance and open iron sights. The only help was the large roundel on the target. I had used the same for shooting the G-3 made by Heckler & Koch. helps in alignment. Human eye picks the centre of a circle automatically (as I was taught). The range was a Military practise range. Not inclined (I think)

By the senior shooter in the shooters jacket:
0.4 inches. For him the target was automatically changed every shot and scoring was done by a scoring machine. The range used was equipped for 300 metre standard rifle matches.

E.J. Churchill is still around. You could send them a note with questions. Your rifle is a modified '98. Many manufacturers used surplus actions to build sporters. The action is a 1941, the modification could have been done up into the 1960's. If you send Churchill all the info you have, they could shed more light on the origin of the rifle. I would have to say I doubt it was built by/for the Brits in WW2, 30.06 is a U.S. cartridge, the Brits used .303. It was not common practice to re-arsenal or convert an enemies arms for use in your army. Parts, ammo, would be an issue. 30.06 was a common sporter conversion because of the case dimentions. No bolt modifications were needed. Jim

The rifle has a hinged floor plate, and I couldn't open it coz there was no release button. I searched on the internet and came across an article on Military Mauser action rifles. To release the floor plate, one needs to use a Full Metal Jacket bullet. Place the tip of the bullet in the hole on the floor plate and press and at the same time press the floor plate (like in a sliding action when the rifle is inverted). That is how the floor plate is released. I tried the same and got it released.

My guess is sir that it is a military rifle. Plus why would any hunting rifle take seven rounds in the magazine? But again, the sights look like the ones I've seen on double rifles and the ones used in African Safaris.

I am PERPLEXED!!! :confused: