Hey guys, im trying to load up some rounds for elk hunting this year and was wondering if the nosler ballistic tip is an adequate bullet for elk? seems like a while ago i heard mixed reviews on with dealing with large game. I would ideally like to get accubonds but they are expensive, and i can get twice as many sierra gamekings (which shoot really well for me). any help would be appreciated, thanks fellas!

Well, the .30 cal 180 BTs I used a while back would not go through a small whitetail deer, or pig. We're talking animals in the 100 lb. range.

Don't know if that's been fixed or not, but I wouldn't be using them. Have been shooting 165gr. Partitions every since.

Good luck with your hunt.

For a little more help answering your question, what cartridge will they be loaded into? I would expect they would work, I have used Winchester Power Point bullets on Elk without any problems. I just bought some 165 grain Game Kings that I plan to use once I get a load dialed in.

They have blown up on deer with me, I don't shoot them anymore. I would prefer the Sierras you mentioned. I would shoot the Speer 180 Mag Tip or standard Hornady Interlock if you are concerned with cost.

I will be shooting a .30-06. I figured that about the ballistic tip but thought maybe they had improved since. well the cost of bullets isnt a huge deal, its just nice getting more bullets for your money ya know. I've been wanting to try a plastic tipped bullet lately, which would you guys recommend? thanks again. oh and are 165 grain bullets good on elk, or should i stick with 180's?

When Ballistic Tips first came out many years ago, I found them to be downright fragile -- in fact, as already noted, really too delicate for my comfort on whitetails. I did find they'd perform very well at shorter ranges with reduced-velocity loads, so I assume they'd have been OK in full loads at extreme range, but it so happens that most of my shooting is not at extreme range. It is my understanding that they have been toughened up at least somewhat since, but I still wouldn't use them for elk.

Can't go wrong with TBBC, Nosler Partition, Barnes TSX, stc.

If you really, really, really just have to have a plastic tip, Barnes is making some 'x' bullets with plastic. Those won't blow up.

Frankly, a box of even the very best bullets you can buy will last a long, long time on critters. Shoot cheap bullets for practice, get the best bullets you can for the hunt.

Excelent point MikeG, I have found that the TSX bullets in my 300 win shooting to same point of aim and trajectory as the TSX for practice and are a lot less expensive.

Ain't nothing wrong with the Hornady SST's if you want a plastic tip. Great accuracy and game bullet. They are all I use anymore for hunting. The bullet shelf is loaded down with Nosler Partitions, Barnes TSX's and others, just really gathering a fine coating of dust.

My vote is for the 180 Nosler Partition, or 180 Speer Grand Slam. I get pretty darn good accuracy out of the partition and ballistic tips out of my 30-06's, but the ballistic tips are basically a somewhat toughened up hollow-point if you remove that plastic tip - good for a ballistic coefficient value, but it gets smeared off as soon as it hits something. The grand slam is a tough bullet, although I haven't gotten them to shoot quite as well as the partitions, but even 2" groups are OK when shooting elk inside of 300 yards. Nothing wrong with the gamekings. I'd shy away from 165's for elk, unless it's a TSX or Failsafe (no longer available unless collecting dust on some small gunshop shelf).

One the gun mags I read recently (forget which one) said the heavier B.T's are now considered by Nosler as the replacement for the old solid base. I killed several elk with those in 30 cal 165 and 180 with my trusty'06. Many people (me included) really howled when nosler did away with the solid base and the BT Is suppossed to be a SB with plastic tip in the heavier bullet weights. I'm going to test some myself.

I had good look with the old solid base bullets, I wish they would bring them back!

Maybe it is just me, but I and my friends have shot a bunch of dear with BT's in 7mm, 308, and 270. I have never had one "blow up". I shot a large (for this area) 180lb buck with a 7 Rem Mag using a 150 BT. It was a close shot with a MV over 3000fps, went right through, small hole in 1.5/2 inch hole out. My buddy shot a 215lb buck with his 308 using 165 BT. Range was something over 200 yards. It was a frontal shot, we recovered the bullet and it retained 75% of it's weight and was a very nice mushroom.

i do like the 200 gr BT in my 338/06AI but i have also read several times that the bt's 8mm and above are very tough. they claim that the 200gr .338 bt's jacket actually weighs more than the core. i've only shot deer with mine thus far... very effective. an old RR friend of mine that lived most of his life in montana swore by the 165gr bt's in his '06 for elk. Joe is an exceptional shot tho, he's got more trophies from IHMSA than i'd care to guess. i think that if you can put 'em where you want and are willing to pass on less than perfect shots they'd do okay. just the same i'd shoot something tougher.

I wouldn't use the BT's when theres so many other, better choices. Matching the bullet to the game is an error many hunters make. A lot of good recommendations made by others. You can't go wrong with a 180 Nosler Partition. If you like plastic tips, Accubonds or Interbonds good choices. Scirrocos are another but they're more expensive and I haven't gotten the accuracy I have that I have with the Accubonds.

Like Shawn, I've not gotten very good accuracy with the Grand Slams. I've heard a lot of others say the same. I don't know what it is, but I've tinkered with probably close to a dozen powders in various charges and can think of only one that gave me close to what I get with much less effort in Sierra, Hornady or Nosler bullets. If you were thinking of 165, the only bullet I would use in that weight would be the Barnes TSX. I'm seeing a lot of elk hunters on another forum using lighter Barnes and having excellent results.

Ya i think i have pretty much thrown the BT's out of the question. I am thinking either the accubonds or the gamekings. I really like the boat tail bullets as they carry their energy better at longer ranges. thanks!

I've shot two deer with 150 gr ballistic tips out of my .300 WSM. Both were lung shots and almost instant kills. Both deer's chest cavities were a mess of bloody pulp. One was at 125 yds and the other at 300. I've shot a deer with a 180 grain accubond from the .300wsm at 290 yds. Hit the humerous but didn't penetrate into the chest cavity. Long walk down followed. I also shot a calf elk at 80 yds with a 180 gr Winchester XP from the same gun. Again broke the humerous but didn't penetrate the chest cavity. I shot another calf at 80 yds with the same gun/bullet combo. Penetrated chest cavity...pencil hole on both sides...didn't go down for 3 minutes. From these experiences I think the ballistic tips are a good bullet only if you shoot for the chest cavity and avoid any bones. If you want to shoot them in the shoulder, I'd use a heavier bullet. I'm going to try 180 gr triple shocks this year. My hope is that they will open up enough to do significant damage if I have a chest cavity shot but will hold together if I hit bone. It's worth the extra money to me to avoid the long walk down of a broken legged animal or the "did I hit him or not" question of a lung shot with poor bullet expansion.

Ya i think i have pretty much thrown the BT's out of the question. I am thinking either the accubonds or the gamekings. I really like the boat tail bullets as they carry their energy better at longer ranges. thanks!

Good decision...when you consider how much you'll spend on gas to go hunting, a few bucks for the right bullet isn't that expensive. I've not used the accubonds, but my buddy took a huge bull elk at well over 300 yards w/a 180 grainer and his 300 WSM. Very impressive.

Of course, you can't really go wrong with a Partition. Personally, I like the Barnes TSX, but I'll probably load up some accubonds this season for mule deer. I think the accubonds are a boattail bullet, which you prefer. However, I've seen some interesting studies lately that show the boattail has very little practical effect on ballistics. It's likely that some manufacturers prefer the boattail as it makes bullet seating easier.

Good luck!

i've heard that a lot of people had a hard time getting very good accuracy out of the triple shocks, any truth to that? im interested in trying them since many of you have suggested them. thanks!

If you are going to spend the extra for a good bullet, I'd skip the accubonds and go with the partitions or TSX's. For reason, see me last post. Most any hunting bullet is ok for a heart/lung shot, but if you hit bone you'll want something more solid than the accubond. Other than the polymer tip, isn't it really about the same as a Remington core-lokt?

Because so many people were using the 180gn 308cal for game bigger than deer Nosler did indeed toughen them up by using the 338 jacket . FWIW the new 168BTs (not to be confused with the 168CTs)are also made the same and again heavier than the 165BTs. This comes straight from nosler. capt david

the 180 bt's out of a 30-06 will drop an elk faster than any more solidly constructed bullet, BUT, if you hit solid bone (leg...), or need to put a shot through at an extreme angle(through the stomach to get to the boiler room), it may not penetrate enough.
nosler accubond/partition, swift A-frame/scirocco.....anything like that(they all work about the same)would be a better option.

i've heard that a lot of people had a hard time getting very good accuracy out of the triple shocks, any truth to that? im interested in trying them since many of you have suggested them. thanks!

The TSX has a reputation for great accuracy. That's what I've seen in my loads. My 350 Rem mag has grouped 3 into 2/3". THere's probably some guns that don't like the TSX, like any other bullet or load. THe old Barnes X bullets did have fouling problems, but that's largely gone w/ the TSX.

However, any of the premiums should give acceptable accuracy. 1 moa is more than adequate for most hunting and 1.5 to 2 moa gets the job done at under 100 yards.

the 180 bt's out of a 30-06 will drop an elk faster than any more solidly constructed bullet, BUT, if you hit solid bone (leg...), or need to put a shot through at an extreme angle(through the stomach to get to the boiler room), it may not penetrate enough.
nosler accubond/partition, swift A-frame/scirocco.....anything like that(they all work about the same)would be a better option.

I'd have to put the A-frame and the partition in a different category than the bonded bullets like the scirocco and the accubond.

the 180 bt's out of a 30-06 will drop an elk faster than any more solidly constructed bullet, BUT, if you hit solid bone (leg...), or need to put a shot through at an extreme angle(through the stomach to get to the boiler room), it may not penetrate enough.
nosler accubond/partition, swift A-frame/scirocco.....anything like that(they all work about the same)would be a better option.



What do you base your opinion?
I use TSX and if the Elk & Deer that I have taken with them as well as the ones taken by my hunting patners hit the ground any faster they are going to have to start falling before the bullet gets there.

'they all work about the same', meaning they'll all put a deer down with similar efficiency.
from my experience with ballistic tips vs other 'premium' bullets, if not hit in the shoulder with a bonded bullet/failsafe they will most likely not drop straight away, where as with a bt behind the shoulder almost all the energy is dissipated within the animal resulting in massive hydrostatic shock/lights out.
i think jwp you must be using a 30cal+ rifle if you are getting them dropping straight off with the tsx's, smaller calibers just don't transfer enough energy.

Monmentum is what is transfered not Kinetic Energy (FPE) and yes I do shoot 30 Cal and a friend shoots 7mm and about any decent hiit puts them on the ground fast. The internial damage is quite spectacular

Well idk about all you guys, but I thought a round that doesnt pass all the way through to be transferring 100% of its energy to the target.

Well idk about all you guys, but I thought a round that doesnt pass all the way through to be transferring 100% of its energy to the target.

No it doesn't.

But the critter will still be dead!

That is just one of the most irrelevant things that hunters have been fed over the last hundred years.

No it doesn't.

But the critter will still be dead!

That is just one of the most irrelevant things that hunters have been fed over the last hundred years.

er...if the energy is not going in to the animal, then where exactly is it going?

Well idk about all you guys, but I thought a round that doesnt pass all the way through to be transferring 100% of its energy to the target.


Energy, in and of itself, is worthless. It's the work that the energy does that's important. In the case of a bullet, that work is destruction of vital tissue. A bullet that doesn't pass through may do enough damage, or it may not -- same as a bullet that passes through -- but the mere fact that it stays in the beast and "transfers all its energy" means nothing at all. It MIGHT mean something if there were enough energy involved to "knock down" the animal, but knock-down is a myth until we get into the realm of artillery pieces. All things being equal -- especially on big animals with a tendency to take a hit and then run off -- I prefer bullets that make two holes and do plenty of destruction in between them.

er...if the energy is not going in to the animal, then where exactly is it going?

Doesn't matter. You do know that the animals die because they bleed to death, correct? Either that or trauma to the spine / brain.

er...if the energy is not going in to the animal, then where exactly is it going?

Who cares? Look at it this way -- suppose you are afield with your trusty .475 Supermega-atomoblaster rifle and encounter that rarest of all trophy critters -- a giant buck wearing a bulletproof vest. You plant your big bullet, packing umpteen pounds of energy, right in the ribcage but, of course, the bullet is stopped (we all know deer wear only the very latest in ballistic armor!) That deer has now absorbed every ounce of energy your load has to offer. It may flinch, it may utter the deer equivalent of "ouch!" It may even stumble or fall for a moment if your firearm is truly mighty, or if he's been severely startled -- and then it will get up and bounce away.

If energy had a decisive role in killing big animals, no animal bigger than a rabbit would ever succumb to an arrow. One thing and one thing only kills, and that is the reduction of the blood pressure to zero, be it caused by destruction of vascular or neural tissue. I repeat myself -- it is not the energy dump that kills, it's the work that energy accomplishes.

er...if the energy is not going in to the animal, then where exactly is it going?


Go and ask a Physics proffesor what happens to Kinetic Energy in Collisions and he will tell you that Kinetic energy is transformed into other forms of energy mostly thermal.
It is momentum that is transfered in collisions. It all goes back to Newtons 3 Laws of motion. The laws of motion deal with acelleration, momentum and mass, NOT ENERGY RELATIONSHIPS.

er...if the energy is not going in to the animal, then where exactly is it going?


A 240 pound NFL running with a speed of 30 feet per second (10 flat hundred yard dash) has 3358 foot pounds of energy this is with his speed alone. Now if foot pounds of energy killed, then the morgue would be full of football players after each game, now wouldn't it.

If you are going to spend the extra for a good bullet, I'd skip the accubonds and go with the partitions or TSX's. For reason, see me last post. Most any hunting bullet is ok for a heart/lung shot, but if you hit bone you'll want something more solid than the accubond. Other than the polymer tip, isn't it really about the same as a Remington core-lokt?

Actually, the Accubond is a bonded core bullet... So one should be able to blast through the shoulder of an elk with it. Don't know why anyone would want to waste the meat with that kind of shot, but to each their own.

Jim

Actually, the Accubond is a bonded core bullet... So one should be able to blast through the shoulder of an elk with it. Don't know why anyone would want to waste the meat with that kind of shot, but to each their own.

Jim

...shot in shoulder, anchors them right there. Otherwise you can be canyon crawling the rest of the day following a blood trail, if you're lucky.

Personal aside...If you're unlucky, you'll be chewing nitroglycerin pills, and hoping to make it out of the hole where the dang elk should have piled up (but didn't), so you get back to have bypass surgery before you die.

So ive been thinking about the berger bullets, either 175 gr. or 185 gr. anybody have any good .30-06 loads for them? thanks for all the input guys

ok, maybe i'm not a an internal ballistics expert, but i can't deny what i see with my own eyes. A ballistic tip WILL drop an animal (with a correctly placed shot) faster than just about anything else.

I can't deny my own eyes either and like I say if the animals that me and my hunting partners have shot with TSX fall any faster they will have to start falling before the bullets get their.
Together we have taken about 50 head of game and that is a substantial amount. I have been hunting since I was 10 years old and I do not believe that a BT is any quicker on dealing death on average than any other good bullet that is well placed.

ok, maybe i'm not a an internal ballistics expert, but i can't deny what i see with my own eyes. A ballistic tip WILL drop an animal (with a correctly placed shot) faster than just about anything else.

Yes it will - till the day it runs 150 yards with no blood trail and you don't find it. If Nosler has toughed them up, and made them as reliable as the old Solid Base bullets, great. When I couldn't get one to go through a small hog or deer, that was kinda disturbing.

Partitions work, every time, big or small.

The day I shot a hog with the .458 Win Mag, and it ran off, that made me quit believing in energy guaranteeing that animals will drop on the spot .....

Are the Remington Accu-tips essentially the same as a BT?

Doesn't matter. You do know that the animals die because they bleed to death, correct? Either that or trauma to the spine / brain.

er...I know how and why they die. The statement was about the energy...and yes it's all transferred to the animal. I never said a thing about the energy being what killed them. When cave men killed mammoth it had very little to do with the amount of energy they expanded. They just had to puncture a whole in the chest wall with a stick. The beast then killed itself using it's diaphragm's energy to suck air into the pleural space, crushing the chest's internal organs (tension pneumothorax).

Momentum transfers not FPE..

so how about those berger bullets guys? should i go with 175 gr or 185 gr for my .30-06?

...shot in shoulder, anchors them right there. Otherwise you can be canyon crawling the rest of the day following a blood trail, if you're lucky.

Personal aside...If you're unlucky, you'll be chewing nitroglycerin pills, and hoping to make it out of the hole where the dang elk should have piled up (but didn't), so you get back to have bypass surgery before you die.

Exactly how far have you had an animal run after a double-lung shot? What bullet were you using at the time?

Jim

Hey guys, im trying to load up some rounds for elk hunting this year and was wondering if the nosler ballistic tip is an adequate bullet for elk? seems like a while ago i heard mixed reviews on with dealing with large game. I would ideally like to get accubonds but they are expensive, and i can get twice as many sierra gamekings (which shoot really well for me). any help would be appreciated, thanks fellas!

Mate,
I think you will find the BT's to work just fine on Elk, I wouldn't use a bullet lighter than 180gr though, just to be safe.
If you want a tougher bullet with a plastic tip, then go for the Accubond, they penetrate moreso than Partitions, and almost guarantee an exit hole on broadside shots.
Ballistic Tips are far stronger than they ever were, above 30 cal, they are just as strong as Accubonds, but aren't bonded, that's the only difference.
The 180gr BT is plenty strong enough.You won't be able to fault it's on-game performance!

On a side note, I wouldn't shoot Sierra Gamekings on any animal larger than a coyote!
MagnumManiac

Exactly how far have you had an animal run after a double-lung shot? What bullet were you using at the time?

Jim

In this case the bull was shot with a 180 gr corelockt from a 30-06 at nearly 400 yards. In that country, 1 foot horizontal equaled about 25 feet vertical. The bull was off and far gone down the hill and into the thick in seconds...never to be seen again.

I stopped helping him look for it after nearly inducing a heart attack working thru the thick stuff.

A few days earlier a bull was taken with an accubond and ran/fell hundreds of feet down into the same canyon before stopping. Horrible job to get him out.

In those conditions I think a shoulder shot is wise...as is passing on poor shots at longer distances than you or your rifle are capable of.

er...I know how and why they die. The statement was about the energy...and yes it's all transferred to the animal. I never said a thing about the energy being what killed them. When cave men killed mammoth it had very little to do with the amount of energy they expanded. They just had to puncture a whole in the chest wall with a stick. The beast then killed itself using it's diaphragm's energy to suck air into the pleural space, crushing the chest's internal organs (tension pneumothorax).

But the point is that energy transfer is completely irrelevant - so why do we keep bringing it up in terms of bullet performance? I don't care where it ends up or what it does, because it doesn't predict the outcome - a dead animal!

It keeps comping up because we have been fed that line of B.S. for many years by the gun magazines, so they could sell "new and improved" cartridges every year, never mind that the "old and lousy" were just as good for the job at hand......

But the point is that energy transfer is completely irrelevant - so why do we keep bringing it up in terms of bullet performance? I don't care where it ends up or what it does, because it doesn't predict the outcome - a dead animal!

It keeps comping up because we have been fed that line of B.S. for many years by the gun magazines, so they could sell "new and improved" cartridges every year, never mind that the "old and lousy" were just as good for the job at hand......

I agree with you on this.

That's my thinking, too.

But, just read an article in the new Shooting TImes by their new ballistics guy. He said the military did tests in the 1970's that directly correlated the size of the temporary wound channel (in gelatin) with the energy dumped by the bullet. This was when the police began shifting over from lead round nose 38's to hollow points.

Guess that make sense, because we all know that just drilling a 30 caliber hole in and out is not the most effective way to kill or create a wound channel.

Energy and momentum are only physical properties of a projectile, but they can be measured. They don't kill...the projectiles do. And those projectiles are much more complcate than any mathematical equation.

On a side note, I wouldn't shoot Sierra Gamekings on any animal larger than a coyote!
MagnumManiac

I've shot several elk, and deer, with a 338-06 with 215 gr Sierra's, and 338 WM with 250 gr Sierra's, and all that I can recall expired within 50 yards, with complete pass-throughs....except 1. And that 1 first passed through a 4" spruce before embedding in the far side of the neck of a mule deer. I've found them to be a good bullet when launched at reasonable velocities. I probably wouldn't use them with a huge-cased magnum-boomer, although even then, when using the heaviest bullet available for the caliber, they will do fine.

That's my thinking, too.

But, just read an article in the new Shooting TImes by their new ballistics guy. He said the military did tests in the 1970's that directly correlated the size of the temporary wound channel (in gelatin) with the energy dumped by the bullet. This was when the police began shifting over from lead round nose 38's to hollow points.

Guess that make sense, because we all know that just drilling a 30 caliber hole in and out is not the most effective way to kill or create a wound channel.

Energy and momentum are only physical properties of a projectile, but they can be measured. They don't kill...the projectiles do. And those projectiles are much more complcate than any mathematical equation.

Yes.... BUT.... is that correlation meaningful?

Where is it proven that the size of the temporary wound cavity has a direct correlation on the time in incapacitation?

If such a thing were to be proven, what is the explanation for many critters I have shot being dropped in their tracks, or shortly thereafter, by any number of "low-energy-transfer" loads, vs. instances I can cite of critters running a greater distance with "high-energy-transfer" loads?

That's the problem with presenting these things a theories... it only takes one counter-example, to toss out the entire theory.

The biggest fallacy of all "energy transfer". "Momentum transfer" now that actually happens and often the projectile with the less FPE has the most momentum.

FPE does not and can not predict the terminal performance of different cartridges.

i've heard that a lot of people had a hard time getting very good accuracy out of the triple shocks, any truth to that? im interested in trying them since many of you have suggested them. thanks!

shooter,

Think your hearing more rumor than fact!

Most all the Barns TSXs loads I've seen shoot well with only one exception: My friends Browing A-Bolt in 7-08 did not like either the Barns' TXS or the Winchester Fail Safes - With either, you could hardly keep them inside of 6" at 50 yards. With any other bullets it would group under 3/4" at 100. We figured it there must be something about that solid copper front of the bullet the rifles throut did not like! This seams the only exception - Not the rule.

Have never had any luck with the Barnes bullets - not matter what style. Just could never get them to group no matter what caliber or cartridge was used, or what powder/primer combination.

Hey guys, im trying to load up some rounds for elk hunting this year and was wondering if the nosler ballistic tip is an adequate bullet for elk? seems like a while ago i heard mixed reviews on with dealing with large game. I would ideally like to get accubonds but they are expensive, and i can get twice as many sierra gamekings (which shoot really well for me). any help would be appreciated, thanks fellas!Here's what you do go to www.shootersproshop.com (http://www.shootersproshop.com) or www.bivwak.com (http://www.bivwak.com) and look for Nosler Factory Blems in Accubond & you'll get some bullets much cheaper,I just checked bivwak & found a 50 round bag of accubond blems for $12.50(blems have cosmetic imperfections )the staff at nosler hunts with them & so do I & my friends perfect bullets!

Yes it will - till the day it runs 150 yards with no blood trail and you don't find it. If Nosler has toughed them up, and made them as reliable as the old Solid Base bullets, great. When I couldn't get one to go through a small hog or deer, that was kinda disturbing.

Partitions work, every time, big or small.

The day I shot a hog with the .458 Win Mag, and it ran off, that made me quit believing in energy guaranteeing that animals will drop on the spot .....

Amen to that! I shot a hog that went 200-lbs with my .416 Remington Mag, and despite the shredded heart, he took off like he'd seen a ghost, and it took me 30 minutes to track him despite the more than 5,000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.........yet my anemic .454 Casull has dropped them in their tracks with similar shot placement. The moral of the story? Muzzle energy is meaningless........

so how about those berger bullets guys? should i go with 175 gr or 185 gr for my .30-06?
Well, since no one else is going to bite on the question, why not buy a box of each and see which one your rifle prefers. How long of shots are you anticipating? I don't know that a 10 gr. difference is going to make a huge diff. in terminal performance, so go with the one that shoots best.

what jb says makes sense to me and i'll go one further, i personally don't think that you need an ultra premium bullets in the '06. the velocity that it will run is just about right for most any makes out there. just the same if you want to use a high end bullet go for it, it can't hurt anything. i've gotten good accuracy with the tsx in my 6.5x55AI and the standard X bullet in my 280 (both 130gr). i've also had good accuracy with the nosler stuff (bt's & partitions) i haven't tried the accubonds yet but expect good things from them.
i've got an '06 and it wouldn't bother me one bit to use a speer hot core or sierra pro hunter 180 on elk. i like what i've read about the berger as a hunting bullet but i have no experience with them. we live in the golden age of bullet making, i don't think that you could make a bad choice with any of the 180's in the '06.

I just purchased some 180 accubonds, so i hope they shoot well, thanks for all the help guys!!