After about 9 months of a very hectic schedule as well as a number of changes in my life, I am able to slow down a bit and return to Shooters Forum. It is good to be back.

About a year ago I asked the members of the forum what they thought the optimum church size was. Our church, Evangelical Free, has grown to over 900 per sunday over the past 10 years. It seemed to have lost quite a bit once it exceeded 500. The intimacy, the "going deep" with God, the participation, all seemed to be missing. A shallowness grew in our teaching as well as the serving within the church. A financial crisis brought me back in as Treasurer as, like all else, the commitment to tithe fell off in spite of a full church.

Over the past 12 months we have lost a number of families who were very active in the church. In talking with them they indicated they left because they were not being spiritually fed at the church.

At this time I would have to agree, my family is not being properly spiritually fed at this church either. However, we sense that God does not want us to leave right now. In 22 years of marriage we have attended only 2 churches, leaving the first when we felt God calling us to leave.

Like being physically fed, I seek out super markets and restruants that provide the food I desire. Similarly with Spiritual feeding, I seek out sources that meet the needs I am seeking. This includes, but is not limited to the church we attend. Christian Radio, books, devotions, etc all play a part. However, there will come a time where if the spiritual feeding does not improve, we will "shop" elsewhere.

By spiritual feeding I mean hearing a sermon that challenges you to think, to want to leave and dig into the Word deeper to get the meaning, something new, to be led by the Spirit to discover something that would otherwise not have been shown.

I would appreciate hearing from the members of this thread on what they look for in a church, how important spiritual feeding is at a church and for what reasons you would consider staying or leaving a church.

Thanks, and it is good to be back.

Brads
Hebrews 10:39

Brad,
Good to have you back. Missed having you here and did notice.

At what point to do we have to start feeding the flock. I know what you mean as far as not being fed. All the things you stated ring true with me and my church. Turmoil after tremendous growth then an exodus from the church. The Lord has always told me to wait. You know it seems like the sermons come from Cliff notes sometimes. I do not do well in large groupings. I need a more intimate close knit relationship with people. It seems to me that people just don't want this like I do. Everyone has so much to do and no time to think of anything other than themselves. It makes me think that Jesus never seemed to worry about others and definately not himself but he did heal others and feed them.

Maybe that's why we should do just as Jesus did. Make ourselves available. But how many want us to be available to them? I find myself talking and hanging out with the street people when I can. Remember that I too am filled with busyness. By spending time with them and talking with them and trying to lead or guide them in the way of the Lord we all grow. They are very appreciative that someone would take the time and talk to not at them. To look into their eyes and learn their names and shake their hands and take them to church.

I took one of my homeless friends to my church a couple of weeks back. Sometimes it's like what do they ( the homeless) have to offer us (the church). Well it's not our church it is Gods and we bring nothing in comparision to his Love and Grace. Now after church my small group met and they all made him feel at home and comfortable. We ate laughed, told stories and made new friends. I really don't know how many really know that Dan lives behind a Phillips station dumpster. Sleeps outside on an old mattress, begs for money on a street corner for beer, smokes and food probably the least important to him.

1 of my friends and small group members is my dentist and together we are getting his mouth fixed up. Loads of extractions then a denture. Takes time but otherwise Dan would never had had this done. Dan is even talking about checking into a hospital for detox from the beer when his teeth are alright. I never even knew how self conscince he was about his teeth. I didn't notice. Listen Brad, the church doesn't find an interest in what I do. I believe that their are many lost souls right in our own neighborhood and they (the church) want to spend tons of money vacationing around the world on missions. Yep I have an issue with that but I will get over it.

Oh and Dan knows my entire family( My mom and dad, of course my wife, my son at home and my son in the Marines) Let them nourish him as well and they will be nourished too! Then there is David and Debra. There are good people with no where to go because they don't know where to go. They are lost amongst all of us. Floating among the sea of humanity.

The Lord instructed us to spread His Word to the 4 corners of the earth. We can all do it but to each let the Lord lead them. Stay strong and never fear the Lord will never leave you. Listen quietly and follow his instructions.

God bless,
Greg

Greg
Thanks for the reply. I agree with all that you wrote.

I have done some deep thinking and praying about the subject over the past couple of days. I have been a Christian for over 30 years, have taught sunday school for 20 years now, including our Bible Instruction class, comparable to a confirmation class for 6 years. Over the past five years our chruch has become a "seeker" church. We have ministries that bring in those that are new Christians, seekers looking for answers, as well as those that are hurting that need healing.

Our pattern apprears to be rapid growth while people come to seek. As they mature in the faith they move on to a more mature church which can provide the spiritual food beyond the "milk" level. A while back we started a small group ministry that was to target mature Christians and feed them. This was to counter the loss of those that needed more than the Cliff Notes sermons that you referred to. Once the groups started taking shape the leadership of the church instructed us that we needed to build new leaders, split and become evangelistic. Again, the result was that the mature Christians who were serving every sunday and not receiving the spiritual food they needed, were not serving as leaders of small groups, feeding others. Many became burned out and moved on. Others like I indicated sought out other churches that cater to the Mature Christian.

The leadership of the church has dictated that beyond 9th grade there will be no sunday school offered. We have an evangelistic Youth Group on Wednesday night that brings in a ton of kids, but the dedicated youth of our church go elsewhere to participate in Bible groups. Our Youth Minister is charismatic and gets the kids who are searching committed to be saved, but offers little in the way of direction after. I fear we are creating a number of Christian orphans primarily because we do not have the leaders to follow up with each and every one who is saved on Wednesday night. They leave with a false or incomplete impression of what Christianty really means.

As for sermons, I would be very interested in hearing what others think about what I would contend is a watered down effort by the Ministers in many chruches. I know they are very busy and are as distracted as the rest of us, however, does anyone else think the sermons are softer or contain less depth than they have in the past? Is it just me or has the evangelical church seemed to have lost some of its passion? The songs are upbeat, the message is bland and the commitment to serve is lacking.

Yesterday our Pastor spoke on worship. He hit on 8 physical forms of worship in about 20 minuted. He did not detail the context of the forms, when they should be used, what their meaning was, etc. In the end I felt I had just been given a concordance lesson on finding where song, dance, raising hands, etc were found in the Bible. He was definately rushed to finish the message, reading the Bible passages before we even found them, moving on before we got to the the last passage. Most around me gave up after about 4 passages.

Greg: so much more could be done, so many more could be reached and brought to spiritual maturity if they followed an example like yours.

Maybe it is time to start a new church with a remnant. One that balances the seeker and mature approach?

Brad
Hebrews 10:39

I've been at my church now for over ten years. It's only the second church of which I've been a member since I graduated from high school. So, it's been a long time since I've looked for a church home.

As for the sermons, one thing I really looked for when I was searching for a church to join, was "expository preaching" that covered large sections of scripture over time. For example, our paster spent about 5 or 6 years preaching through the Psalms - sometimes two or three sermons in a row on the same Psalm. We just spent about 6 months going through the ten commandments from Exodus 20. Before that, it was about a year preaching verse by verse through the book of James.

Something I don't like in sermons is topical preaching where the pastor/minister chooses what topic he thinks the congregation needs to hear and then goes to the Bible to find out what it says on the topic. The pastor at the church I grew up in preached this way. It seems I heard about 1000 sermons on tithing, divorce, or alcohol. But, I don't ever recall hearing sermons on trivial little matters such as the doctrine of justification or God's immutable nature. When the topics of the sermons are dictated by the text rather than by the decisions of a man, I think the hearers get a much better assortment of what God emphasizes rather than what the preacher thinks is important.

Also, I don't like sermons that try to be "practical" and seek a way to apply to our modern life today. Practical sermons attempt to relate God's word to modern situations and tell us how to live better lives accordingly. God's word is not a self-help book intended to give us "5 steps to a more harmonious family life" or some such. I don't think there is anything more practical than just letting the God's word speak for itself. Let it tell us about the nature and personality of God as revealed through his Son. Let us see the course of redemption througout human history. These are the things that feed young and mature believers alike. There is an engraved brass plague on the inside of the pulpit in our sanctuary (so the pastors can see it). It says, "sir, we want to see Jesus". I don't want to hear about three easy steps to finding my purpose in life. I want to see Jesus.

Finally, one thing I've noticed from most of the big, suburban mega churches these days, is that they are focused on the worshipper, not the one being worshipped. The liturgy and even the sermons are all about how I experience God and what he means to me. It's about my spiritual experience and how worhsipping God makes me feel. The lyrics and melody of the songs focus on how I feel about God and seem intended to stir up an emotional response within me. The church where my sister is a member has some mamby-pamby "worship leader" who leads the songs by lifting his face to heaven, closing his eyes, singing softly, and swaying along like he's slow dancing with his lover or something. YUK! I can't stand a worship service led by some Richard Simmons type who's just up there "feeling the love". I want a worship service that is focused on Almighty God, concentrates on praising him because of his attributes, who he is and what he has done, and not on how I may or may not feel about it. How I feel about it is not important. I want a worship service and a sermon that focuses my attention on God and not on myself.

I think the modern church in America should do some deep thinking about what it is called by Christ to be and to do. Alot of today's church programs are far outside the scope of the church's intended purpose of equipping the saints, preaching the word, and administration of baptism and communion. I don't believe the church is called to establish weight loss programs and addiction self-help groups. If the members of the church take it upon themselves to run those sorts of programs on their own, then that is just great. But, it's not what the church proper is called to do and shouldn't be something that falls under the authority and sanction of the church elders/deacons/pastors. I certainly don't think the church should use tithed funds to hire staff to organize and lead these kinds of "programs".