Hello all!

I'm curious about .410 reloading.

I noticed that a .410 shell (2.5 inches) with a slug fires at about 1830fps whereas an equivalent 000 buckshot fires at about 1,300 fps. The weight of the slug is about the same as the three 000 pellets [edit - not so - Slug about 0.25 ounce, 3 pellets about 0.45 ounce].

Here's a link to the slug . . .
WinchesterBuck410 (http://winchester.com/products/catalog/shotdetail.aspx?symbol=X41RS5&use=3&gauge=410)

Here's a link to the buckshot . . .
WinchesterBuck410 (http://winchester.com/products/catalog/shotdetail.aspx?symbol=XB41000&use=4&gauge=410)


My questions are . . .

1. Why is there such a huge difference in MV? Is it the powder charge, or is it the shape of the slug versus the pellets?

2. If it's the powder charge, would it be possible to replace a slug with 000 or other pellets in the original slug .410 shell to get the higher MV?

3. If 2 is possible, how difficult would this be to do? I have zero reloading experience.

Edit - And thank you!!

I was surprised to see 1830fps listed as MV for the slug. I wonder if that is not wishful thinking on Winchester's part. I'm more used to seeing 1600 fps for .410 slugs (but I haven't chrono'd them so maybe.)
The velocity difference is due to the total projectile weight. A .410 slug is commonly about 90grs. The OOO buck load is 210grs. (each one of the OOO shot weighs 70grs. nominal).
Could you single load the OOOs? Probably. You'd have to use a lot of buffer in the wad. The slug is a Foster type slug and obdurates to fill the bore. I wonder if the large amount of buffer (or a long fiber wad column) would produce the same effect. Worth a try.
Pete

Welcome to the forum Shorty. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

Going from a light slug weighing 90 grains with the same powder load to 210 grains of 000 buck could be a recipe for a blown gun and an injured shooter. I'd not recommend doing that. If you want to reload shotgun shells get a Lyman reloading manual and read up on it.

My 2 cents.

410 slugs come in two basic flavors, 1/5 ounce (about 87.5 grains) and 1/4 ounce (about 109 grains) Most are 1/4 today but were 1/5 ounce many years ago. I once saw a good sized buck taken with a single 410 1/5 oz slug at about 40 yards with a good broadside chest shot. It went down fairly quickly and it was a good clean kill and I was impressed by the damage it did too. 410's tend to defy logic a lot in field at times.

"taken with a single 410 1/5 oz slug at about 40 yards with a good broadside chest shot. It went down fairly quickly"
I can believe that. Energy-wise the slug is in .357/.44 Magnum territory with well over 600ft-lbs for the 1/5oz slug and over 800 for the quarter oz. slug at the claimed velocity. The 2.5" Winchester slug is 1/5oz.
Pete

Reloading is a complex process, and the .410 shotshell is probably not the place for a beginner to start.

Take Bob's advice and don't mess with it. You can safely shoot a lot of .410 slugs, at what I don't know, for the cost of a reloading setup (not to mention the time).

That loading strikes me as a bit of a novelty more than anything else. If you really want to hunt with a shotgun, a light 20 ga. is worlds above the .410 in effectiveness.

The .410 and 28 ga. pretty much have survived all these years for clay target competition, as the rank and file hunters ignore them by and large. If you don't believe that check the prices on ammo and you'll choke at the difference, no pun intended :)

Many years ago I hunted a lot with 410's and even took a few pheasants with them. I never reloaded them but did reload and shoot a lot of 12 ga trap in past. I found with big guns you need to be careful to not shoot too soon with shot when game breaks because it can render it not very edible and why I used 410 a lot. When I used a 12 I would only use it on birds and wait longer and take a swing and lead on birds. I have a few 20's too and 20 is a nice compromise between them. Some 410's can be very accurate with slugs in them but even still I would limit it to about 50 yards or so because that light slug runs out of gas quickly. A small compact 410 pump with slugs in a "defender" style stock would make a nice home defense round as it would be easy to control and very effective at close ranges without going into overkill/overpenetration mode.

Thanks for the input folks!

Does anybody know for sure why there is a greater MV on the slug?

Is it the same powder charge but the slug is lighter than the 000 so it travels faster?

I'm interested in this for a derringer. The problem with MV on a derringer is that the barrel is so short you lose about 25%-40% of the velocity you'd get in a 25" barrel.

So I'm wondering if there is a greater powder charge in the slug.

Based on your advice, I have no interest in messing around with the shotshells anymore.

Now I'm just curious.

I guess the generic question is, for the same powder load, will a less massive projectile come out faster?

It is the weight of the slug as to why it is so fast. A 2.5 inch 410 can carry up to 1/2 ounce of shot at a lower velocity and a 3 inch one up to 3/4's of a ounce. (all my 410 game hunting was with 3 inch shells) BTW a 410 in a derringer is going to have more like a 40 to 50% velocity loss or more and 65 to 75% energy loss.

"I guess the generic question is, for the same powder load, will a less massive projectile come out faster?"
It really depends on the powder. In general, yes, but not always.
For example, getting away from shotshells:
A faster burning powder, like Bullseye, in a .357 magnum will give a similar or higher velocity with a lighter bullet. A slower burning powder - one that requires more pressure for ignition and optimal burn may give a lower velocity. Examples are Alliant 2400 or H110. A look on the Lyman #48 manual shows a 13.5 gr. charge of 2400 behind a 110gr bullet as yielding a MV of 1045 fps. A lighter charge of 13.0 grs behind a 125gr bullet gives 1159fps.
Both 2400 and H110 are useful in .410 shotshells. What type of canister powder Winchester uses is unknown to me.
Pete

Generally speaking, if you can get the derringer in a .410, you can probably get it in a .45 Colt - a vastly more effective chambering (and probably a lot easier to find ammo for, as well).

Frankly the recoil of either is probably going to be atrocious, and if not a really seasoned handgun shooter, you'd be much better off with a lesser chambering (say .38 special), if you are going to use a derringer at all.

Awesome answers.

Thanks a bunch fellas.

Yes, I agree. I 45 colt would be better in it with 410 shot shells making a good snake load. (it is gonna kick and blast big time though with shotshells.)

Just to let you know that the lyman 5th edition have the data to load 410 buckshot. I use 2400 to load my 2 1/2 and 3 inch shells . I will be loading my own buckshot that I cast. when you look at the weight of the number of buckshot in the handbook it will tell you how much weight ,the amout you need to put in. As for how much 2400 I use for reg shot is 13 to 13.5 grs. I use. I use my savage 22cal and 410 . It is a over and under that I use once in awhile for hunting . It make a good tree rat gun . How this will help someone.Take care.

I have no pics but this is what I got when I load 4 OO buckshot in a 2 1/2" 410 hull. At 20 yards I got a 7" spread . At 15 yards I got a 5" spread. That is also usen a wad. If anyine would like to know what the out come is.
Take care

Trapper: Thanks for the feedback. Those are very tight groups - just what you want for your purposes. The rule of thumb for shot patterns is that the shot column opens at one inch per yard from a Full choked gun. So seven inches at 20 yards is amazingly tight.
Pete

Trapper: Thanks for the feedback. Those are very tight groups - just what you want for your purposes. The rule of thumb for shot patterns is that the shot column opens at one inch per yard from a Full choked gun. So seven inches at 20 yards is amazingly tight.
Pete

Thank you Pete for you in put. I did not borther to see what 25yards would be . I was thinking it would be a waste of time. I know you can only do somuch with 4 OO buckshot. When I get some spacers I will try out with only 1 OO buckshot and see what come of it. I will be some time before I do that. Just to let you all know that I use the same amout I use to load regular shot.
Thank you

Here's a bunch of .410 info...

http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm

That was a nice article. It confirms my own experience with the little .410 slug (funny, how it's a "little" slug when it's for a .410 but it delivers as much energy as the "big" 158gr. .357 Mag bullet).
In my little Springfield M6 survival O/U, which has a cyl. choke, the .410 shoots its slugs right to POA at 25 yds. I have not shot it any farther than that. But now I will.
Pete

Here's a bunch of .410 info...

http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm

Thank you for the link . I was wondering about the 410 slug and the way it shoots.

410's are awesome. I refined a double barrel, single trigger for my sister. Cut the barrels down to 18 and 1/2 inches. Polished and loosened the action. Put swivels and a sling on it for carry over the shoulder... It shoots 3 inch slugs at about 1850 fps. It also shoots the 5 ball 000 in 3 inch shells at about 1150 fps. Left barrel is spot on at 25 yards, right barrel shoots a tad left and high. The gun a great acrry gun. I wish I had one for myself for when I am hiking the woods and want protection but not alot of weight or size.

I did the work on it and practiced with it before I gave it back to her... It is her farm protection gun. I recommeneded she load two of those 3 inch 000 shells in there: with two pulls of the trigger she can launch ten 35 caliber round balls at 1150 fps at something that was scaring her. She had a mountain lion get too close to her, so now she carries this thing, and we all feel safer.

Part of the reason the 000's are slower is they are only 35 caliber balls so you have alot of blowby.

It is also easier to get higher velocity from a single projectile equal in size or nearly so to the bore size. You shouldn't load more than ONE projectile that is bore size, That could be a perscription for danger. Thus you must go smaller when you have more than one and once you start multiplying projectiles you can't get the higher pressures, that is why you can get 1800 fps or so from a 410 slug but ,at best, 1200 fps when you have more than one projectile that is smaller than the bore size.

I loaded some 410 with a single 00 Buckshot and this is what I came with. At 23 to 25 yards It shot about 7 to 8 inches off center . then at 20 yards it was with in 3 to 4 inches on center. I did try a lighter load ,it was too far off . That is when I had put a different load and it was better , Also since I case my own 00 buckshot . At first I did not roll them , they where off and yes that was also with a lighter load. and then I roll them it came out to a closer group. By the way the post I put earlyer with the 7 inch group the buckshot was not roll. If anyone want to know how I load them let me know.
Thank you

Winchester 3" shells with five 000 buck are awsome out of my Super Comanche pistol, like a whole cylinder from a .36 Navy Colt all in one blast!