Well, one of my friends wanted to build some saboted subsonic 30-06 loads. I tried to talk him out of it, but finally agreed and he's paying for all the testing so I don't lose out on anything except a little time.

I've read a bunch of stuff already. Its got to be possible.

I found and ordered the sabots and I have some 77 grain .224" bullets.

What powder do you intend to use? Unique, 2400 or ?

The best that I have seen published is Blue Dot, but thats still 1000 FPS faster than I want it.

I'm thinking Trail Boss is the way to go...

If you want subsonic rounds from the 30-06 case, why are you going to use sabots? Generally, the point of a sabot is to increase velocity, so you will be working at cross purposes.
I have loaded subsonic rounds by using light charges of Unique or Red Dot and fairly heavy cast bullets. I use them in an old Springfield.
SoS at standard temp and pressure is about 1130 fps. Is it important to be under 1000fps for some reason? Seems like you are just making the task more difficult.
Trail Boss might be a workable idea.
Pete

I wanted to go with the cast lead, but the customer wants sabots... I'm just gonna dump in 10.0 grains of Trail Boss and run them over the chronograph and see where I'm at with velocity.

I picked up the Trail Boss powder and some 80 grain .224" Hornady A-Max bullets today. The TB is super bulky, the round IMR/Hodgdon/Winchester cans are filled completely and only weigh 9 ounces.

The sabots should be OK with Trail Boss, but don't try to use it with jackets of any kind. They report unexpected pressure spikes with jacketed bullets, and that's why you don't see it listed for jacketed loads by Hodgdon. Trail Boss has a little saltpeter mixed in with the smokeless constituents to help burn off carbon. It works. Super clean, but apparently that also makes it sensitive to higher start pressures.

Nick, what do you think on a starting charge? I was trying to go by case volume and came up with about 10.0 grains. I'll be using mil-surp 30-06 cases, since I have a lot of them and they are sturdier than commercial cases.

I definetly won't be shooting jacketed bullets with this.

Should I use a Magnum primer or not, does it matter? I have read to use a Magnum primer and enlarge the flash hole to 9/64", that was with lead bullets though.

Please report the results. I'm curious as to the velocity of the proposed load and the saboted bullet. I was just looking at the Lyman # 47 manual which, alas, does not list Trail Boss. It does, however, list a 10 grain load for 700X which is similar in burn rate (that iffy science). That load drives a 150 gr. cast bullet at 1408fps in a 30-06 case. I wonder how far down you can drop the bulkier TB and still have a consistent load.
Be interesting to see.
Pete

The fast powders don't tend to be very sensitive to position in the case or %case filling because they light up easily and the flame spreads rapidly, relative to bullet movement, so pressure has no trouble building within a reasonable amount of bullet travel. You won't need magnum primers for the same reason, and, indeed, with a lighter load like this you may find magnum primers introduce some pressure variability unless they are match types? I don't use them enough to predict that. I do know a lot of benchrest shooters prefer the mildest primers they can get their hands on so they can control pressure as much as possible by controlling the powder charge.

Your 10 grain load should be fine. You may even find it wimpy. I ran a bunch of fast powders under the Remington Accelerator Sabot with 55 grain .224 bullet in QuickLOAD and the max loads are all in the twenties of grains. You shouldn't have enough energy in 10 grains to make enough pressure to be an issue. I tried loading a bunch of fast powders at 10 grains to learn maximum pressure, and Vihtavuori N310 was the winner, producing 17,300 psi and about 2350 fps from a 24" barrel. All the rest produced lower pressure and velocity.

If you want to get that load subsonic, good luck. 5 grains of TB might do it? You may have so little pressure at that point that you don't need to resize the cases to reload? Since Trail Boss isn't in the QuickLOAD database and is non-standard formulation, I don't want to overplay guessing at its characterization, here.

It would be simpler to buy a chamber adapter for .32 H&R/S&W Long. Subsonic, you don't have to mess with sabots, buy ammo at any gunshop...simple. Never mind, I realize that logic is not the issue.

I think that you will find that with the low velocities and the 10" twist, you are not even going to come close to stabilizing 77-80gr .224 bullets. Those bullets are too long to stabilize in a 10" twist even at full .223 velocities. My guess is that 35-45gr bullets are the most likely to stabilize at the speeds you are working toward. BOL

Thanks Nick, I'll start at 10 grains and work my way down til I get subsonic, thats all I have to do for this project.

Blackhawk-
Thanks for the jab. .32 H&R is above the speed of sound. All my friend asked was to build a subsonic load that used the sabots. He didn't say anything about accuracy or what he was even going to use it for.

Did not mean to jab. The .32 S&W Long and Short (which fit the H&R chamber) would definitely be sub sonic.

The note regarding bullet length was meant to save you components, frustration and time. BOL.

Well, if he has no goals regarding consistency, accuracy or anything except subsonic and sabot, then slip some cheap 55 milsurp FMJ bullets into sabots and seat them over 3.5 Bullseye or RedDot in those .30-06 cases. They'll be subsonic. Not much else, but they will be subsonic.

Hmmm... sounds like an excellent way to stick a sabot in the bore, and then bulge the barrel...

This may be counter intuitive, but have found it much easier to get a good, quiet, 800-900fps load using a medium to heavy weight lead bullet (if a gas check design, leave the gas check off...at these speeds, leaving a gas check in the bore is a real possibility).

Have wondered why...but believe once you get 170-200gr. of greasy lead started (in .30cal) it tends to stay moving a bit better than light weights.

Have run 200gr. .308's so slow (670fps) that at 50yards, they stick in a railroad tie backstop like darts...about 1/2 to 1/3 the bullet still sticking out the tie....different quality to the sound (deeper and less sharp) but about as loud as a rifle firing .22 short.

So...if the sabot idea doesn't work out, consider going to the other extream.

I use Unique for squibb loads. Always used lead, never sabots. Somewhere between 2 and 4 gr of Unique and a lead bullet in almost any 30 cal round seems to work well.

MANY
years ago I hunted woodchuck with a .308 win loaded with Remmie accellerators.

While this ammo screamed in speed, it just about took an act of the man upstairs to hit anything.

We ended up just loading light 100 and 110 grainers from Hornaday and Sierra, which gave us inherently more accuracy, and while we never chronied these loads, the recoil was so light that we referred to them as "wimp" loads.

Just another option for ya.

I believe the load was about 44-46 grains of varget, under the 100 or 110 grainer.

This may be counter intuitive, but have found it much easier to get a good, quiet, 800-900fps load using a medium to heavy weight lead bullet (if a gas check design, leave the gas check off...at these speeds, leaving a gas check in the bore is a real possibility).

Have wondered why...but believe once you get 170-200gr. of greasy lead started (in .30cal) it tends to stay moving a bit better than light weights.

Have run 200gr. .308's so slow (670fps) that at 50yards, they stick in a railroad tie backstop like darts...about 1/2 to 1/3 the bullet still sticking out the tie....different quality to the sound (deeper and less sharp) but about as loud as a rifle firing .22 short.

So...if the sabot idea doesn't work out, consider going to the other extream.

I'll go with that suggestion. 210gr. cast bullets in my .35 Rem work well with about 3 grains of bullseye, and all the polyester pillow stuffing you can get in the case.

Just a 'pop' but they will go through a whitetail's head!

I really tried to get him to go with the lead bullets, but he really wanted the sabots. i figured I'd give the sabots a try but if one of them sticks in the bore (I don't think they will, they seal pretty good) then I will go with the the lead.

I remain very curious. Did your "client" express any reason for desiring sabots? Sure makes your job harder.
I don't think that sticking in the bore is a problem. Getting the things subsonic while maintaining a useful load density is more the issue...along with stabilizing those long .223 bullets in a relatively slow twist.
Pete

Agree, it's a bit like asking to haul firewood, but you have to use a Mazda Miata...

Just load them as I suggested: some cheap bullet in a sabot over 3.5 Bullseye. You can even skip the polyester stuffing: it won't matter. The "client" will get precisely what he asked for. He'll then be quite disappointed (probably) but he'll have nobody to blame but himself. (On a sidenote, I 'd bet that the bullets and sabots won't even separate at such low speeds.)

If it's for a client, I would be wary of such a light load in such a big case. I've seen the picture (below) on the Finnish Gunwriter's site (http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA6.html) of the .308 action burst by apparent detonation of 2.9 grains of N320. That powder is nearly as fast as Bullseye and this cannot be explained by a double-charge (as "Bullseye surprise" in .38 special loads turned out to be), because it would take 7 times that much N320 just to reach a safe SAAMI peak pressure with the bullet employed.

I would go for 5 grains of Trail Boss. At least that will fill the case half way.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/mausexpl.jpg

I'll add that my Dad has shot a lot of the 100 grain Speer and Hornady half-jacket bullets through his Springfield '03-A3 and has successfully ignored this warning without incident. I think such events are highly improbably, since no lab has yet succeeded in reproducing them, but the fact they have been reported at all would cause me to err on the side of caution, especially with a client.

I warned the guy... at first I didn't really want to do it, since I'm pretty busy with work and USPSA matches anyway, but he didn't have much of a timeframe and is paying for everything, plus I get to keep the extra stuff that isn't used. Considering the only 30-06 I own is a M1 Garand and it won't see anything but Greek M2 ammo for a very long time, keeping the extras isn't that valuable.

If you want to part with a few dozen sabots when U are finished, let me know. I'd like to try a project using them in my .308 with Berger bullets and a slow speed batch with Marshall's .224 lead.

Do you know what his intended use is?
Pete

Way back in post #1 I mentioned I didn't know and didn't ask.

Chris, I can do that, but they require a special seater die. The whole set was $20 for the die and 100 sabots. www.eabco.com/reload02.html (http://www.eabco.com/reload02.html)

As long as you wouldn't mind sending the seater die back I'd just ship you the rest of the stuff. I'm still waiting on it to get here, I was hoping it would be by now.

I replaced the link with a direct one.

I know those accelerators are fast... I'm gonna load a couple up to top velocity just to have a little fun.

Going thru my ammo stores and i found a box of 20 Remington 30-30 accellerators I have here too!

I'm going to have to shoot these now!!!!

Too bad I couldn't find any 6mm/.308 sabots... that would have been fun too.

These sabots are a total pain in the butt to seat without shaving some of the plastic off. I wanted to put together 5 to run over the chronograph, and two ended up in the garbage, but I'm getting the hang of it. Also, the bullets aren't very secure in the sabots. I put a little crimp on them and they hold better but they still aren't totally secure. I may need to go get some flat based bullets and a collet type crimper (like the Lee FCD) my $100 budget is starting to shrink pretty quick.

"30-30 accellerators"
About a dozen years ago - quite the opposite of subsonic loads - I put together some 30-30 rounds using sabots and 55gr. FMJs. I shot them out of a 10" bbl on a T/C Contender. I tried one shot at a spinner made of 1/2" armor plate. At 50 ft. the bullet left a 1/8" deep crater about 1/2" wide. I still have them somewhere on a shelf.
Pete

These sabots are a total pain in the butt to seat without shaving some of the plastic off. I wanted to put together 5 to run over the chronograph, and two ended up in the garbage, but I'm getting the hang of it. Also, the bullets aren't very secure in the sabots.


That is exactly what I have read about them all over the net.

That's also why I've never really seriously tried them. I ordered the kit for the $20 bucks....let's see if my luck is better.

About 20 years ago, I contracted to develop loading data for 30/22 sabots. After burning a lot of components with absolutely zero success, I opted out without pay.

The end came when I couldn't keep five shots on a piece of cardboard two by four feet at 25 yards. Some sabots never opened, some opened but didn't release the bullet, some released the bullet but tumbled - and a whole lot of them simply missed that huge target.

One technique is to put a very generous chamfer on the case mouths, then, right after cutting the chamfer, to run the case mouth over a carbide expander ball two or three times to burnish the sharp edges left by the chamfering tool. I started doing that for loading moly-coated bullets when I pulled one from a load and discovered a freshly chamfered case basically scrapes the coating all off as the bullet seats in the case mouth. A non-carbide expander should work, too, but you'll need case mouth lube that you'll want to clean off to avoid making the sabot even more slippery. That should stop the shaving.

I thought about using glue, like hot-melt, to hold sabots in place, kind of like the military practice of putting hot pitch on bullets to seal them. The trick is, you don't want to get glue between the fingers of the sabot, where it might make its mass eccentric or delay the opening of its petals on one side or the other. So I think you are better off trying the FCD crimp.

Good luck with it.

Yea, a glue would make the sabots not seperate at all.

I ordered some new supports and skyscreens for my chronograph, which brings me to another point, don't ever loan your chronograph out to a friend unless they agree to pay for anything that gets broken. They should be in next week.

I'm going to try chamfering the case mouths generously, and running them over the expander ball. If the Lee die is cheap enough I'll pick one up, I think they are, but Lee stuff is hard to find around here, nobody carries Lee stuff (or very much of it).

A couple of things work to decrease sabot shaving. The above tips are very good. So is using a Lyman "M" die designed to put in a slight "step" to keep from shaving lead bullets.

I ended up chamfering, then polishing with a stainless steel bore brush in a drill and THEN using the M die. After seating (during it, actually) I pressed out the step left from the M die with the crimp shoulder, but not to the point where the mouth was turned in at all.

As I mentioned, nothing helped the accuracy, but the above did make loading the little cusses easier.

Nobody carries Lyman around here. I'll just take my time and be really careful with it.

On the plus side, Trail Boss meters pretty well through the Uniflow.

Because these are so difficult to make, I'm going to wait until my chronograph parts get here before I shoot them. I did pick up some flat base 50 grain bullets today, I think that will make them stay in the sabots a lot better as there will be more bullet to hold, and less tendency to fly out.

I've ordered from Lyman by phone and I'm in Canada. Pull out the Visa, call 800-225-9626 and order a 30L M Die. You can order online too.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/dies.htm

Bye
Jack

The results are impressive-

5.0 grains of Trail Boss behind a 77-80 .224 bullet in the sabot delivers a very consistent 1020-1035 FPS from a 24" barrel. I'm not sure of the twist on my Remington 1903-A3, but they printed a 4" group at 50 yards with peep sights and off hand shooting.

My cases were mixed Winchester and Remington, & CCI LR primers.

I will be testing next with a scoped Remington 700 from a bench rest. I should get to that this weekend.

I did load some 50 grain bullets too, and they delivered 1350 FPS. I won't be doing any more testing with the 50 grain bullets, because they are too fast for what I want.

I originally loaded the 80 grain Hornady A-Max bullet. This bullet is very long and it is difficult to keep in the sabot, the Nosler 77 grain BTHP Custom Competition and Sierra 69 and 77 grain bullets are a much better choice, they are shorter and will be adequately gripped by the petals of the sabot.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this, I was in the middle of building my house.