I don't own one of these (I do load the cartridge for a friend) but was reading about the big X framed guns and the different barrel lengths offered. S&W claims that 2000ft.lbs are available from the four inch barrel version. I'm wondering what the two inch barrel offers.
I've seen the gun, a huge snubbie, and I wonder if diminishing returns don't apply and if shooter wouldn't be better off in a survival situation with a cartridge like the .454 Casull or even a .44 mag. in a gun with a longer barrel but a smaller frame.
What do you think?
Pete

I haven't had to use them yet, but I have 4" and 5" .500 S&Ws. They have enough power that they can be used with reduced power loads, keeping the recoil to a level where repeat shots are possible, and still significantly out perform any .44 or .45. I would tend to feel that for bear medicine, bullets over 400 gr. would be appropriate, at velocities of 1200 fps or so.

"Survival Situation".......Hmmmm ??

To me them yellow handled freaks are a simi-clever marketing ploy. For a pilot being downed in Jurassic Park,even a .500 would be simi-useful. Especially with only 5 shots.

Realistically,for Alaska and for some of the other regions that have the big bears it would surely be a "feel good" thing,although I feel that in a survival situation such as that,one of the last things to worry about is a weapon of that magnatude(size and power level).

If a person that was halfway knowledgeable about firearms and their charistics was to carefully contemplate a strictly survival firearm,I feel that very(VERY !)few would pick the yellow or red handled ones that come in a $120 case.

Now, what we all would pick if we were invited to a survival situation,would vary greatly. But hopefully it would be very well thought out by the participants.

As you say,possibly a 4 or 6 inch .454 Casull with one of the larger hardcast,or a .44 Mag with some 300's or 310's would be better suited to the ocassion. Maybe even a 22LR.

I personally, would give allot of thought about having my Glock 20, and a couple(maybe more) mags of Double Tap's 200gr WFN hardcast.(15+1) They work great on the larger hogs. That brings up another thought/question. Would you rather have 16 shots outta a 10mm(with quick reload) or 5 outta a .500 Mag ??

Maybe even a 16"bbl,take down,.45-70 would be in order. Or a disassembled,12ga,870. Along with that could be 7 1/2 shot,#4 buck, a few slugs,and some red flare's.

The possibilities are endless, but IMO,the biggest fact that sould determine our choice of survival weapon is the location in which you could possibly be stranded in. There's not much need for a .500 S&W Mag in the Arizona desert. -----pruhdlr

The impression that I got, very strongly since the package comes with a copy of "Bear Attacks of the Century", is that the "survival situation" envisioned involves a large carnivore. At top loads of 2600ft.lbs from a ten inch barrel, what could one expect from a two inch barrel? How would that compare to a .454 0r a .44 with a 5 to 7 inch barrel? Just wondering.
The take down Alaskan Copilot in 50 Alaskan is on my wish list if I am ever in bear country.
Pete

If you can carry one of these large frame guns in a 2 inch model then you probably can carry one in a 4 inch model and not only will the 4 inch gun help with accuracy, but it'll give you better energy and velocity. As big as these guns are the difference between a four inch and two inch gun is moot considering their weight.

As far as the power needed, well you've kinda got to be in a position where yours or someone elses life depends on that weapon to appreciate what more power means. One of the things I've always stressed is if your going to carry it then learn to use it and use it well.

The big X framed Smiths are a weapon that has somewhat of a tough learning curve compared to even the 44 magnums. Buying one as a dangerous game defense gun doesn't make much sense if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it due to lack of practice.

Only thing I can say is after my and a friends encounter with a big Brown bear on a fishing trip in Alaska a 44 mag will work, but after that incident I carried a 12 gauge short barreled pump shot gun. My friend carried better than 180 stitches that seemed to prove more gun is better in those situations.

I don't think capacity is relevant. How many shots do you think you are going to get off if a bear decides it wants to make a meal out of you? One? Maybe? Forget muzzle energy -- you need penetration and that you can have with a big, heavy, flat-point hardcast at moderate velocities. You don't need 1,600 fps to get end-to-end penetration.

I haven't had to use them yet, but I have 4" and 5" .500 S&Ws. They have enough power that they can be used with reduced power loads, keeping the recoil to a level where repeat shots are possible, and still significantly out perform any .44 or .45. I would tend to feel that for bear medicine, bullets over 400 gr. would be appropriate, at velocities of 1200 fps or so.


I agree a 400 grain flat point hard cast from a 475 or 480 is very effective indeed, nothing more is needed.
As to those that comment about the advantage of carring a high capacity semi auto, I say that the high capacity is a moot point. The speed in which a Bear attack occurs will not allow for the spray and pray methology. One shot placed well from big bore revolver can and will end things rather quickly. A quick end is the only way to remain unscathed in these situations. No way will a Bear that is intent on killing you give one enough time to fire multiple shot as most are in close proximity of you when the attack occurs.

I speak from experience,

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg

As far as the X-Frame S&W's are concerened the frame ios too large to be a comfortable packing revolver IMHO. The Ruger or Freedom revolvers are much more likely to be carried constantly than the large unwielding X-Frame revolvers

Thanks for the responses. They each reinforce my gut feeling - at least about that X frame snubbie.
Pete

I just shot a buddies S&W 460 revolver last weekend. We shot his target ammo which was 200 grainers at 2250 FPS.

He is a pistol hunter and he said he initially thought he wanted the 500 but after very thorough investigation he chose the 460 S&W. It is I must admit a beautiful gun and he packs plenty of wallop without being ridiculous in terms of punishment to the shooter. He claims the 460 offered better accuracy and the 500 had no real (in his words) advantages over the 460. If you can hit exactly where you want with a slightly smaller and lighter bullet verses missing with a slightly bigger bullet, then the choice is easy. I am pretty sure the 460 offers faster velocities over the 500.

He shoots alot, practices alot at 75 yards, and he shot a big whitetail buck at 65 paced yards with this pistol last season and he said it fell in its prints. He has been through alot of pistols and he claims this is by far the best pistol he has ever owned.

I enjoyed shooting this revolver. I am sure his hunting round would pack more recoil punch but I still feel that it would be manage-able. If I was in dangerous game country I would not mind volunteering to carry this gun.

I wouldn't use that 200 grain load on anything bigger than deer. On big game, the .500 most certainly offers advantages over the .460 which is a .45 caliber round. Now, you don't need the speeds offered by either, certainly not under 100 yards. But you can't really argue that bigger isn't better all things being equal -- i.e.: heavy for caliber hardcasts being used in both. My biggest criticism of both of those cartridges is that they require such a big handgun to house them. Check this picture out. It is a .460 and a .475 Linebaugh. Which one do you think is better big-game medicine? Hint: it's not the long, lanky cartridge on the left.........

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/DSC03016.jpg

Something to keep in mind too, is the x-frames with the muzzl porting are so friggin loud, they say that one shot without hearing protection will damage your hearing for good. My friend had a 6"460, and with factory loads you could feel the shockwave 10 feet away. and the muzzel blast in broad daylight was huge. As far as packability, He was an alpine logger so he packed it all day so I made him a simple western style rig with a wide belt and a drop holster. He said it was pretty comfortable.

One thing for the x-frame, they make a Super Redhawk look light and trim!

I just shot a buddies S&W 460 revolver last weekend. We shot his target ammo which was 200 grainers at 2250 FPS.

He is a pistol hunter and he said he initially thought he wanted the 500 but after very thorough investigation he chose the 460 S&W. It is I must admit a beautiful gun and he packs plenty of wallop without being ridiculous in terms of punishment to the shooter. 1-He claims the 460 offered better accuracy and the 500 had no real (in his words) advantages over the 460. 2-If you can hit exactly where you want with a slightly smaller and lighter bullet verses missing with a slightly bigger bullet, then the choice is easy. I am pretty sure the 460 offers faster velocities over the 500.

3-He shoots alot, practices alot at 75 yards, and he shot a big whitetail buck at 65 paced yards with this pistol last season and he said it fell in its prints.4- He has been through alot of pistols and he claims this is by far the best pistol he has ever owned.

I enjoyed shooting this revolver. I am sure his hunting round would pack more recoil punch but I still feel that it would be manage-able. If I was in dangerous game country I would not mind volunteering to carry this gun.


1- How did he decide that the 460 offers better accuracy? 50 cal revolvers are widely harolded for their accuracy. The 500's have a definate advantage over any thing smaller when hunting large heavy game or shooting a bear off of your back side.

2- Yea, a hit is always better than a miss and that is a given, but a hit with a 50 cal leaves a bigger wound channel and deeper penetration and that is a fact. Check all of the Linebaugh Seminars and the 45 cal revolvers best loads do not penetrate as deep as the 50 cals best loads.

3- That's very good and I congradulate him on his kill, but the 460 is not the only revolver that will take game cleanly with a solid hit. I killed a hog3 years ago at a lasered 218 yards with my 45 Colt shootin Buffalo Bore 325 grain LFN hard Cast load.

4-S&W makes some good ones and some not so good ones in the same models, have owned a few of each. I am glad that your friend got a good one.


A 1 shot kill (the bull went nowhere) with the bullet exiting. 500 Linebaugh 525 grain WLFN hard cast at 1100 FPS
The 50 cals. are very impressive on the big stuff.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/parker_buffalo.jpg

My first thought on the X frame gun as a survival weapon is: will you have a forklift with you in this survival situation? :)
My thinking is that a 44 magnum you'd actually carry all the time would be more appropriate.

Mostly, I was (and remain) curious about the velocity of the 500 S&W when fired from such a short barrel. The "Survival" version, a snubbie if it can be considered so, weighs 54oz. That is about the same as a Freedom Arms mod. 83 with a 5 inch barrel. Part of my wondering was/is whether the five inch barrel on the 83 is enough to equalize the two (penetration is a related issue, of course) with the 83 shooting .454 or the .500 Wyoming.
Pete

500 Linebaugh shooting a 525 grain bullet went completely through and exited the Buffalo

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/parker_buffalo.jpg


This same 525 grain load at the Linebaugh Seminar in Jackson, Miss. last year pentrated 50" the sam amount that my 50 Alaskan penetrate with the same bullet nearly 500 FPS faster. Don't get caught up in the Velocity BS. Heavy flat point hard cast penetrate very wel and kill very well at normal handgun velocities.


This exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 Bull Elk was created by a 440 grain flat point hard cast bullet from my 500 JRH down loaded to 950 FPS. A lot of velocity is not needed

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesfrom2006061.jpg

Pete, you don't need a whole lot of velocity to get end-to-end penetration. That short barrel will lose velocity over the longer barreled versions, but it will get the job done. The key is a heavy bullet with a flat nose. Last year, Dustin Linebaugh shot a grizzly bear at 176 yards with a .475 Linebaugh. The bullet left the barrel at a "scorching" 1,200 fps. How fast it was travelling by the time it snuffed out the bear's life is unknown to me, but I am reasonably certain it wasn't travelling faster than 1,000 fps. The point is that you simply don't need a lot of velocity to be an effective game killer.

OK. Thanks for the info and the pics. Very convincing. Also, I was reading through John Taylor's chapters about knock out value and came away with a similar impression. It's starting to sink in.
I do load CP's WFNGC bullets in the .500 and in my .44Mag. At this point, though, if I were to be buying, I'd opt for one of the lighter guns in .475 or .500. (time to start saving my nickels and dimes).
Pete

[QUOTE=jwp475;352691]1- How did he decide that the 460 offers better accuracy? 50 cal revolvers are widely harolded for their accuracy. The 500's have a definate advantage over any thing smaller when hunting large heavy game or shooting a bear off of your back side.

2- Yea, a hit is always better than a miss and that is a given, but a hit with a 50 cal leaves a bigger wound channel and deeper penetration and that is a fact. Check all of the Linebaugh Seminars and the 45 cal revolvers best loads do not penetrate as deep as the 50 cals best loads.

3- That's very good and I congradulate him on his kill, but the 460 is not the only revolver that will take game cleanly with a solid hit. I killed a hog3 years ago at a lasered 218 yards with my 45 Colt shootin Buffalo Bore 325 grain LFN hard Cast load.

4-S&W makes some good ones and some not so good ones in the same models, have owned a few of each. I am glad that your friend got a good one.


A 1 shot kill (the bull went nowhere) with the bullet exiting. 500 Linebaugh 525 grain WLFN hard cast at 1100 FPS
The 50 cals. are very impressive on the big stuff.

Interesting comments there. I won;t try to answer all the numbered points because some are obvious and there is no discussion. On the first two:

1. I'm just passing along info from a guy who has owned and hunted with pistols and said he thinks his 460 has the edge in accuracy over the 500, I really believe he was factoring in recoil. But, I will ask him to give some specifics.

2. 45 cal is not in same league as the 460 S&W so I wouldn't use the 45 cal wound compared to the 500 asserting that the 45 is similar to the 460. I think we can all agree to that one. Howvever, I agree with your fundamental claim which is the 500 S&W should leave a bigger wound channel than the 460 S&W both using hunting ammo. But again my friend kept saying the punishment of the 500 which he test shot contributed to him being less accurate with it. So by looking at the targets he had ocular proof thus his decision to opt for the 460 and not the 500 for hunting/survival/protection against things like nasty bear.

Anyway.

Nice buffalo you got there and impressive use of a pistol for sure.

As far as me, I like the 44 Magnum for a woods/ hiking/ carry gun against big critters with teeth. Second would probably be the 460 OR the 500 OR (golly there are so many pistols I need to try out and study yet!). I would want a special holster to spread out the weight of either of the really big boys, though

I like the 44 mag alot. It can be loaded up to amazing knockdown with a flat metplat. And I don't mind carrying it. I find it easy to shoot accurately too. The ones I have shot I hit everything I aimed at. For me a survival gun also means a carry gun in strenuous conditions and I have to give alot of consideration to that metric---comfort and carry.

But I am also a guy who likes knockdown. I own a 50-90 double rifle with 20 inch barrels. I load it hot with 535 grain Woodleighs as my comfort gun and load. Over 4000 pounds of smackdown energy... But as a survival pistol I'm still a bit prejudiced toward the 44 Mag... However this thread sure is interesting and many good points are made by the really BIG BOY faction.

Let me add to John's comments re: the .50 cals. Keep in mind they don't have to be loaded to the gills to be accurate. Both John and I have seen those impressive results with the 440gr. bullet at "only" 950fps or so.

Yes, the full-bore .500 S&W ammo is loaded hot, because that's what they perceive the market as wanting. There is no reason everyone has to run that round at full throttle, all the time.

Frankly the .500 JRH 440gr/950fps load does it all for me.

I wouldn't doubt that the .460 S&W shooters got better accuracy than the .500 S&W shooters, just considering recoil.

If your friend is saying that he can shoot the 460 better than he can shoot the 500, then I have no dissagreement, but if he is making a general statement that a 460 in general is more accurate than a 500 then that is not an accurate statement.

The 460 is not going to be anymore effective on Large heavy game than a 454 and that come from expeirence and not guessing.

My 50 Alaskan revolver has plenty of recoil and in spades. A friend shooting it at last years Linebaugh Seminar in JHackson, Miss.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/LinebaughSeminarJackson2007005.jpg

2. 45 cal is not in same league as the 460 S&W so I wouldn't use the 45 cal wound compared to the 500 asserting that the 45 is similar to the 460. I think we can all agree to that one.

Ah, the .460 is a .45 caliber cartridge..........it's just a long .454 Casull, in essence...........

Again, muzzle energy is meaningless. My .416 Rem generates more than 5,000 ft-lbs, and it doesn't seem kill any better than my Casull loaded with 400 grain WFNs........

Amen............

I was referring to the 45 cal data and wound info that was based on "standard 45 caliber round", not the diameter.

I hear you a 460 isn't necessarily bigger but the 460 Smith & Wesson is in a league way way above the standard 45 caliber round. Just as the 44 magnum is way above the standard 45 caliber round in almost all respects including the wound it can make.

And yes definitely there are so many factors BEYOND just the round. Bullet type, weight and loading can arguably be even MORE important in this discussion than caliber/round. I have a 50/90 I hand load for. I can load up some light, accurate rounds where the recoil is like a 243 with low velocity... a good deer round. I have another load which is a brown bear stopper and kicks pretty good. Gun and caliber did not change. Bullets, construction, weights, meplat, powder type and amount, etc. So, again it is one of those things where we almost need to specify every time we are talking about a "round" all the specs not just its caliber because every caliber is actually many levels of whompability :)

What is "standard .45 cal"? I'm not following you. The .460 Smith is a .45 caliber round, thereby producing a .45 caliber hole. We have come a long way since the .44 magnum was considered a better hunting round than a .45 Colt. The .44 is actually only a .429 caliber whereas the .45 is well, .45 caliber, and able to sling bigger and heavier bullets than the .44 magnum. The .460 is not way above a .45. The key is that you do not need the speed that the .460 is capable of delivering and the mythical muzzle energy it can produce -- it is meaningless. I have a .454 Casull and the best thing you can do for it is to slow it down as all of that velocity just makes them unpleasant to shoot -- and I'm not talking about a 5-lb X-frame Smith with a compensator.

The first thing we look at is diameter and bigger is always better, all things being equal like heavy for caliber bullets with the same meplat relative to the caliber. Caliber determines the size of the wound channel.

Something else that adds in the equation, (and this based on an episode of mythbusters and information from this forum and no real experience on my part:D) the faster the bullet is going when it hits water-saturated meat, it tends to do some unpleasant things and decellerates so fast that they often come apart. Where as a slower heavy bullet just goes through leaving a big hole. On Mythbusters the high velocity rounds they tested were i believe, a 30-06, An m1 garand and a 50bmg. all of the rounds got just barely under the water and completely disintegrated. On the other hand, if I remember it right, a 12 guage slug went 6 feet under water, through a six inch block of balistics gel, bounced off the bottom, came back up through the gel and came to rest on the top. In my limited understanding, all velocity gets you is distance with a flatter trajectory so your scope/sights are still on point of aim.

Whitworth---

I was referring to the statement jwp made--"a hit with a 50 cal leaves a bigger wound channel and deeper penetration and that is a fact. Check all of the Linebaugh Seminars and the 45 cal revolvers best loads do not penetrate as deep as the 50 cals best loads."

Those loads.

I do as you probably do, I load and study alot of load data, and the 45 caliber loads I see in print are not in the same league as what the 460 S&W can do, in my humble opinion. That is all I am saying.

As far as all that high velocity stuff being way overkill, I totally agree with you. Yet as someone who also studies dangerous game hunting and does it, I will say I prefer having my 50 caliber double rifle loaded up to 2000 FPS with 535 grainers with me over having any 45 caliber.

I shoot .714 round balls, 58 cal round balls 54 caliber round balls and 50 cal modern loads (mostly Woodleighs). I share---it appears---many similar preferences as you do. I like BIG rounds.

Yet the topic was on 500 S&W as a survival weapon and on VELOCITY. I think most people read that as stopping power, much more than wound path.

I hear you insist 50 cals larger wound paths is the main issue, but I think that is not necessarily the issue with regard to the TOPIC. And I am saying I think there are other factors (and I listed some) that decide knockdown, shock, blam... and utilty as a survival weapon especially in dangerous game territory IS the topic. Moreover, I think the topic seemed to steer toward North American situations so grizzlies and browns are conjured up in most minds, I think.

As you probably know most hunters of dangerous game list shock as well as penetration as being the BIG two. 470 Nitros, 500 Nitros, 570 Nitros with Woodleigh solids and with alot of powder are therefore delivering the goods. Wound channel is lower on THAT list.

But I agree with you fully, you can kill most animals with much lower velocities, and wound channel is a lofty element for THAT, but stopping in its tracks an attack from a grizzly (or a lion) are very different matters and I was focusing on the topic as the first poster described it. Stopping, in survival situations, against dangerous game. This is where I would want alot of powder, (big case), the right solid bullet... This is where the magnums and high powered (nitro) guns very much come out on top.

We are in agreement on most things, and it is always good to debate with another 50 cal man. But I think the issue is Smackdown more than wound channel, maybe you see it differently. That is fine. I guess that is why they make so many flavours of guns! :)

Also, the S&W 460 is not listed with the "45 caliber pistol loads" in all load date reference manuals. The S&W4 60 is listed by itself as a S&W 460 and when you look at the ballistics for it, it is like looking at the 44 magnum compared to the 45 acp. That is what I mean by a different league. I agree with you it may measure the same diameter but the round is a step up from any loads printed up for "quote unqoute" 45 caliber pistol loads. :)

But Pete's thread---which he has been steering---is mostly about VELOCITY of a 2 inch snubby 500 and if it would deliver good enough smack down. I would say hands down YES, but I'm in the camp that would favor a 44 magnum loaded up with fatassed bullets primarily because of the other as aspect of the topic---survival gun, carry in tough, rugged situations plus I would NOT want to shoot a 500 2 inch barreled S&W loaded up with big highest powered hunting loads. To me it would be too uncomfortable and if you had to steady on a bear I think memory of how hard the gun hurts would potentially lead to a miss from POA, which could spell death to the shooter.

Modern big-game rounds are loaded to much higher velocities than were the NE rounds. For example, the famed (and first) Nitro Express round was the ubiquitous .450 3 1/4-inch which purportedly slung a 480 grain bullet at 2150 fps -- but this was the velocity achieved with a 30-inch test barrel and not what you would see with your 25 or 26-incher. So, they achieved their fabled stopping power pushing their bullets closer to 1900 fps. A .458 Lott will push a 500 grain bullet to 2300 fps and I have a .450 Ackley that will take that same 500 grain bullet to 2400 fps. My point is this: a .450 Ackley generates more than 6,000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy -- considerably more than the .450 NE. Is it a better killer than the NE? Nope, it is not. You need penetration to kill an animal, and as jwp was trying to explain, his .500 Linebaugh at 1,100 fps penetrates better than his .50 Alaskan running the same bullet 500 fps faster. The Linebaugh is the one I would choose to stop a bear over that big, obnoxious .500 Alaskan.

The .460 is simply a lengthened .454 Casull. S&W did this so that they could achieve high velocities -- velocities that aren't necessary. I am not trying to be contrary.

So if Pete wanted to get a snubby 500 S&W (little 2 inch barrel) would you recommend loading it with a lot less powder than their "TOP" aka highest velocity loads? This would also have the advantage of alot less recoil and therefore assumed better accuracy.

Velocity would be alot less, yet as you contend and as I agree, lower velocity is NOT necessarily implying it would not stop a bear attack. The right bullet and enough powder in a 500 would do that.

Whitworth---

I was referring to the statement jwp made--"a hit with a 50 cal leaves a bigger wound channel and deeper penetration and that is a fact. Check all of the Linebaugh Seminars and the 45 cal revolvers best loads do not penetrate as deep as the 50 cals best loads."

Those loads.

1-I do as you probably do, I load and study alot of load data, and the 45 caliber loads I see in print are not in the same league as what the 460 S&W can do, in my humble opinion. That is all I am saying.

As far as all that high velocity stuff being way overkill, I totally agree with you. Yet as someone who also studies dangerous game hunting and does it, I will say I prefer having my 50 caliber double rifle loaded up to 2000 FPS with 535 grainers with me over having any 45 caliber.

I shoot .714 round balls, 58 cal round balls 54 caliber round balls and 50 cal modern loads (mostly Woodleighs). I share---it appears---many similar preferences as you do. I like BIG rounds.

Yet the topic was on 500 S&W as a survival weapon and on VELOCITY. I think most people read that as stopping power, much more than wound path.

2-I hear you insist 50 cals larger wound paths is the main issue, but I think that is not necessarily the issue with regard to the TOPIC. And I am saying I think there are other factors (and I listed some) that decide knockdown, shock, blam... and utilty as a survival weapon especially in dangerous game territory IS the topic. Moreover, I think the topic seemed to steer toward North American situations so grizzlies and browns are conjured up in most minds, I think.

3-As you probably know most hunters of dangerous game list shock as well as penetration as being the BIG two. 470 Nitros, 500 Nitros, 570 Nitros with Woodleigh solids and with alot of powder are therefore delivering the goods. Wound channel is lower on THAT list.

4-But I agree with you fully, you can kill most animals with much lower velocities, and wound channel is a lofty element for THAT, but stopping in its tracks an attack from a grizzly (or a lion) are very different matters and I was focusing on the topic as the first poster described it. Stopping, in survival situations, against dangerous game. This is where I would want alot of powder, (big case), the right solid bullet... This is where the magnums and high powered (nitro) guns very much come out on top.

We are in agreement on most things, and it is always good to debate with another 50 cal man. 5-But I think the issue is Smackdown more than wound channel, maybe you see it differently. That is fine. I guess that is why they make so many flavours of guns! :)


1- Again you state that the 460 is head and shoulders ahead of "45" loads that you see in print. What loads are you talking about, The 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W, 460 Rowland, 45 Super, etc. are all 45 caliber.
If you are saying that the 460 S&W is head and shoulders ahead of a properly loaded 45 Colt 325 grain LFN at 1350 FPS) or a 454 Casull ( 360 WLFN grain at 1400 FPS) then I totally disagree as there is not a dimes worth of difference between them on big large game from my experience.

2- The permanent wound channel is the only factor that matters and to deny this and think that magic is at work here is completely wrong. The International Wound Ballistics Assc. firmly established this beyound debate.

3- No wound channel is the only thing only the list. I saw a 450 Nitro #2 fail misserably, because the round nose solid veered off course and had no visible effect. So all of that power was totally wasted because of no wound in any vital organ. The bullet hit in the right shoulder and missed all vitails and we found the bullet in the off hip, the was a non lethal wound. If all of this power was what kills then any hit wound do the trick and this is definitely not the case.

4- The only way to guarantee to stop a charge in its tracks 100% of the time requires a central nervous systems hits no matter the weapon. Just watch the Mark Sullivan videos and even with his 600 Nitro a brain shot is required. When Mark misses the brain, he has to shot again.

5- What is "Smackdown"? Again it is wound channel That matters.

Yes, I would recommend lower velocity loads. The key is a good bullet weight and shape, not how fast you can push it. I guess there is something to be said about burning, blinding and deafening the bear, but if you want your bullet to penetrate to the vitals, a lot of velocity is not necessary.

Taylor knockdown and all the other theories about what bullet and calibers are NEEDED to knockdown and kill dangerous game is mighty littered with poor souls who will fall prey to that argument! haha

I guess after all the smoke clears I agree with the camp of thought that says a big meplat, solid construction and enough powder to penetrate and provide shock are the best recipe. Yet I think what I hear is a 500 S&W snubby 2 incher throwing a flatnosed heavy solid bullet at 1200 fps might do the trick. He should not need 1800+ fps heavy hunting round. But I am not totally convinced of that actually.

I guess I see the difference in stopping and destruction when I shoot my 50 cal at 1900 fps verses 1100 fps. I carry both loads in my belt and I assure you when I see a bear I pop two of those 1900 fps loads in the tubes and not the 1200 fps.

When I see a bear I am just as happy to have one of my Big Bore revolvers as I am my 458 Lott

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg

They put game on the ground very quickly indeed.

As to the 50/90, I have a 50 Alaskan in a 5 shot revolver, does it kill any better with the increased speeds, not in my opion. It kicks a lot more is about all. The 50 Alaskan can push heavy bullets faster than the 500 S&W, but so what it's meaningless

A friend shooting my 50 Alaskan

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/LinebaughSeminarJackson2007005.jpg

I have a few different charts that list 45 cal as in 45 ACP 45 Colt.. the Casull is listed separately as are the 460's... So I guess the issue may be interpretation of the term 45 cal. (peace)

But again, Pete was wondering if the 500 S&W with that 2 inch barrel would have enough killing power assuming he is going to have lower velocity numbers out of that 2 inch barrel compared to the specs (longer barrels). And I think "we" are all saying there is more to the picture than that. You guys are saying he should oonly worry about wound channel and I say smackdown which I know is not ballistically measureable, but is "related" to shock and energy as was attempted to be measured by big game people such as Taylor and indeed taylor did not get it right in my mind either... So add in the sectional density and mass and velocity and bullet meplat and bullet construction/hardness...

Bottom line I think I'd ask myself --- if I had a pistol and there was a BIG brown bear rumbling toward me at high speed would I want a 2 inch 500 S&W and loaded with what? or, would I want a different pistol and if so loaded with what?

By the way--that photo of your friend shooting your 50 alaskan... my first thought was---Good thing it is not an automatic!!! hahahaha

I have a few different charts that list 45 cal as in 45 ACP 45 Colt.. the Casull is listed separately as are the 460's... So I guess the issue may be interpretation of the term 45 cal. (peace)

But again, Pete was wondering if the 500 S&W with that 2 inch barrel would have enough killing power assuming he is going to have lower velocity numbers out of that 2 inch barrel compared to the specs (longer barrels). And I think "we" are all saying there is more to the picture than that. You guys are saying he should oonly worry about wound channel and I say smackdown which I know is not ballistically measureable, but is "related" to shock and energy as was attempted to be measured by big game people such as Taylor and indeed taylor did not get it right in my mind either... So add in the sectional density and mass and velocity and bullet meplat and bullet construction/hardness...

Bottom line I think I'd ask myself --- if I had a pistol and there was a BIG brown bear rumbling toward me at high speed would I want a 2 inch 500 S&W and loaded with what? or, would I want a different pistol and if so loaded with what?


First off I killed this Buffalo with one shot with complete penetration (bullet exited) and my outfitted to that he was amazed would be putting it mildly. He said that he had seen them shot with every thing up to and including 600 Nitro Express. The fact that the 500 Linebaugh with the 525 grain WLFN at 110 FPS did so well with a body shot simply amazed everyone there, except us, because we have come to expect this type of performance with proper bullets.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/parker_buffalo.jpg


This exit in the ribs of a 6X7 Bull Elk was made by my 500 JRH with a reduced load (440 Grain at 950 FPS)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesfrom2006061.jpg

MikeG, has taken Bison with this very load.

Once enough is reached more does not necessarily make it a more efficient killer

Personally, I'd rather have an 83 in .475 Linebaugh, with 400-420 gr. bullets, than a truckload of 2 1/2" .500 S&W's.

Amen to that....http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/thumb.gif

Personally, I'd rather have an 83 in .475 Linebaugh, with 400-420 gr. bullets, than a truckload of 2 1/2" .500 S&W's.


You can include me in this group as well! Not a big X-frame fan......

there only a couple of places in the world that you would need a 50. cal for survival. most people attaked by animals, that bite back were trying to kill them in the first place . if you are crash landed in the bush and trying to make your way out. you are going to, or should be making lots of noise, witch will greatly reduse your chances of being attacked. if it were me i would chose a small cal handgun or takdown rifle to feed myself. not much left of a rabbit or gamebird when shot with 400gr + bullet.

there only a couple of places in the world that you would need a 50. cal for survival. most people attaked by animals, that bite back were trying to kill them in the first place . if you are crash landed in the bush and trying to make your way out. you are going to, or should be making lots of noise, witch will greatly reduse your chances of being attacked. if it were me i would chose a small cal handgun or takdown rifle to feed myself. not much left of a rabbit or gamebird when shot with 400gr + bullet.


Not true, I shot many Ptarmigan with my 475 and all it does is make a hole through them about like an arrow will make.

These big-bores don't do the meat damage on small animals that a small, hyper-velocity bullet does. Also, I want a weapon that will pull me out of the worst case scenario, and that weapon isn't a small-caliber handgun.

I agree a 400 grain flat point hard cast from a 475 or 480 is very effective indeed, nothing more is needed.
As to those that comment about the advantage of carring a high capacity semi auto, I say that the high capacity is a moot point. The speed in which a Bear attack occurs will not allow for the spray and pray methology. One shot placed well from big bore revolver can and will end things rather quickly. A quick end is the only way to remain unscathed in these situations. No way will a Bear that is intent on killing you give one enough time to fire multiple shot as most are in close proximity of you when the attack occurs.

I speak from experience,

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg

As far as the X-Frame S&W's are concerened the frame ios too large to be a comfortable packing revolver IMHO. The Ruger or Freedom revolvers are much more likely to be carried constantly than the large unwielding X-Frame revolvers

Yep that picture says it all, I believe you know exactly what you're talking about. I didn't think 15 rounds of semi auto anything would be a effective as 5 shots of that 500!

Tom j.

or one well placed shot for that matter......:D

i forgot we were talking about the magical .475 :D makes big holes when you want it, or small holes when you need it to. i wish my 500 smith was magical to. i think i will sell my 20 guns and by a .475 cal to replace them all. 400 yard mule deer in montana .475, prarie dogs in kansas .475 heck why does anyone even need a shotgun when there is the great .475. sounds like a byist opinion, not that the .475 is not a good cal but it is not the holy grail of cal. i can't belive that militay across the world have not adoped the .475 yet. when will everybody lern that the .475 is the greatest. they need to start chambering sniper rifles in .475:D

if i was going to take a big revolver in the bush for survival i do not see why a snub nose 500 would not work. i think i would prefur a 4 or six inch barrel . i have a 10" barrel raging bull in 500 smith. can hand load 500gr hardcast to 1700 fps. would not think you would lose more than 300 fps with a short barrel. you could back off a couple of grains and come up with 1000-1200 fps . if recoil is a factor, try useing diff powers, it makes alot of diffrence. lil gun has the least recoil for me, but i have only tryed a couple of powders.

i forgot we were talking about the magical .475 :D makes big holes when you want it, or small holes when you need it to. i wish my 500 smith was magical to. i think i will sell my 20 guns and by a .475 cal to replace them all. 400 yard mule deer in montana .475, prarie dogs in kansas .475 heck why does anyone even need a shotgun when there is the great .475. sounds like a byist opinion, not that the .475 is not a good cal but it is not the holy grail of cal. i can't belive that militay across the world have not adoped the .475 yet. when will everybody lern that the .475 is the greatest. they need to start chambering sniper rifles in .475:D


Ah, the sarcasim. The 475 is not magical, but it is a great caliber as is the various 500's. My statements in this thread are based on my experience and I have posted pictures to show some of my experience.
Please detail your experience with big bore revolvers on game and post a few picture to high light your experience.
The 475 is just an outstnading big bore chambering as is the various 500's and they are very, very effective. Again based on my expeirence with them, and I recieved my first 475 in 1988, how long have you been shooting a 475 or 500?
A 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag, 45 Colt, 454, 475 (480), or 500, with hard cast bullets simply punch a hole through small game much like a arrow does. John Linebaugh often calls the big bore revolvers "a long range punch press".
How about you giving your experience with the big bore on game and a few pictures to emphisize your point.
I recieved my first 475 in 1988 ( 1 of the first 2 or 3 in exsistence) and I shot the very first Moose and Bear ever shot with the caliber that same year, so I have a bit of time and experience with the 475. How about you laying out your time and experience that you have with them or what ever caliber that you have experience with.

if i was going to take a big revolver in the bush for survival i do not see why a snub nose 500 would not work. i think i would prefur a 4 or six inch barrel . i have a 10" barrel raging bull in 500 smith. can hand load 500gr hardcast to 1700 fps. would not think you would lose more than 300 fps with a short barrel. you could back off a couple of grains and come up with 1000-1200 fps . if recoil is a factor, try useing diff powers, it makes alot of diffrence. lil gun has the least recoil for me, but i have only tryed a couple of powders.


How about a picture of the chrongraph results. Hogdon 2008 load data lists a max velocity for the 500 mag with a 10" barrel at 14882 FPS at 51,900 PSI.
I take your calim of 1700 FPS as meaning it as having never beeing shot it over a chronograph.

there is a thing in handloading called oal. that is the total length of the cartridge. if you seat the bullet out farther you can put more powder in it giving the bullet more speed. i am surprized that someone with as much experence as you did not know this. you can also handlap or firelap the barrel witch i have to give more velocity . truth be told probabley could squeeze another 100 fps out of the round but why.

there is a thing in handloading called oal. that is the total length of the cartridge. if you l seat the bullet out farther you can put more powder in it giving the bullet more speed. i am serprized that someone with as much experence as you did not know this.


There is also a rule in internal ballistics and that states what ever in crease in case capacity at the same presure you will only get 1/4 of the the increased case capacity in velocity. In other words a 10 percent increase in case capacity will result in a 2.5 percent iincrease in velocity, all else being equal.

You are realy losing all of your credibilty here if you are interested.

THis is Whitworth, and I am at bfrshooter's house, doing some load development. We just got through shooting my magical .475 and my not so magical .454 -- oh and my little .44 mags as well.

I too want to see some pictures!! Let's see the trophy shots!

I have to put in my two cents too. First, no way to get 1700 fps from the .500 using a 500 gr boolit.
Second, those that believe energy is what kills watch too much TV where the BD is blown twenty feet back and raised 10 feet in the air.
A big long primary wound channel through vitals is what kills, nothing more, nothing less. Big game hit with tons and tons of energy can show no reaction at all to the hit. But shot through and through with a large meplat boolit going slow or a little faster will do the job even though the energy nuts think energy is wasted with over penetration.
Keeping ANY boolit in the animal will never kill as good as a hole all the way through. Even a super fast explosive bullet is worthless unless the central nervious system is shut down. Energy dump is a fallacy until you get to something like shooting a man with a .50 BMG the disassembles the whole body.
Anyone that believes in energy to kill has zero experience in the field.

the only reson people shoot bullets faster is for flatter shooting not more killing power, wetherby rounds come to mind does 300 weatherby kill better than 30-06 no, but it shoots flatter for a easer learning curve. for killing game at greater distences. there is a way to get 1700fps with 500 gr bullets out of a 500 smith with 10 barrel loading the bullet out to 2.32 inches and useing the right powder. i agree there is no reason to, but it can and has been done by me and others.http://www.john-ross.net/loading.htm go here and see.

Slowsuki, you have done a complete 180* reversal!!!!!! Now you have the answer for high velocity, (Range and trajectory.) after saying you need energy to kill. I don't understand how you got so smart so fast! :eek:

where did or have i ever said speed kills. i am a huge fan of heavy slow moving bullets . i have never said speed kills better you need to get your eyes checked.

where is this formula about 10% increased case capasity only gives 2.5% increase that is kind of vage with over 200 diff powders all burn diffrent and act diff in diffrent cases diffrent bullet weights. i find that one hard to swallow.

The formula for case capacity vs. velocity was published by John Barsness in Handloader Magazine some years ago. It holds up quite well for any commercial cartridge and only breaks down for some extreme wildcats. It's easy to verify with a Powley Computer, which indicates that Mr. Powley understood this years before the Barsness article.

There's one ideal powder burn rate for any particular case and bullet combination. So while 4064 is a good powder for the .308 Winchester, it won't perform if you increase case capacity to .300 Magnum levels. While there is a huge number of powders available, it just means that there are several available at each burn rate.

Bye
Jack

"if I had a pistol and there was a BIG brown bear rumbling toward me at high speed would I want a 2 inch 500 S&W and loaded with what? or, would I want a different pistol and if so loaded with what?"
Yes. That was my thought when I posted originally. As to velocity loss in the two inch .500, I still wonder. Do you really think that it gets 1000fps.? Given all the other posts and info, this is purely an academic question at this point. I wonder what the realities are loading for that short barrel.
I was looking at Ranger Ricks website and those BIG .500 bullets that he sells. Of course the thought crossed my mind that one of those 650-700 gr. bullets moving relatively slowly might be a real thumper from a two inch gun.
In any case, for now, it's back to the old .44 Mag.
Pete

Slowsuki, you are correct and I had to go back and read every post and found it was someone else that was talking about "BLOWDOWN." Sorry.
But I will still dispute whoever said the .460 is the most accurate and beats any of the bigger bores. I also dispute the one who says the .475 is not good enough for whatever animal will be shot. It is most likely the most versatile caliber made.
The .475. and any of the .500's is fully capable of close to 1/2" groups at 50 yd's and accuracy to as far as the boolit will travel. Accuracy is NOT a function of caliber or case capacity. It is derived from proper boolit selection, powder and loads.
My .475 BFR will shoot 5/8", 5 shot groups at 50 yd's, shoots an inch or under at 100 yd's and I have kept 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yd's. I don't expect any .500 to do worse.
I set a can up and with two shots, one to get the holdover and the next to hit it, at 200 yds' proves the accuracy. I then took one shot at the can off hand, at 100 yd's and centered it right where the sights were. Is there better? Will the .460 out shoot it or me? Will a .500 do worse if the work is done?
The .460 is an abortion with the fast light bullets meant for long range only. It will turn a close deer to mush but a bad hit will not kill faster then a decent .45 Colt load. To bring it into the quality of the .475 and .500's it needs 350 to 400 gr bullets.
Fast explosive bullets only destroy meat without making a clean kill a sure thing.
Some of you .460 owners, do this and show me. The 200 yd shot is on the side and the 100 yd off hand shot is on the front. This was a 420 gr WFN boolit at 1329 fps.

the only reson people shoot bullets faster is for flatter shooting not more killing power, wetherby rounds come to mind does 300 weatherby kill better than 30-06 no, but it shoots flatter for a easer learning curve. for killing game at greater distences. there is a way to get 1700fps with 500 gr bullets out of a 500 smith with 10 barrel loading the bullet out to 2.32 inches and useing the right powder. i agree there is no reason to, but it can and has been done by me and others.http://www.john-ross.net/loading.htm go here and see.


The only powder listed on the link that you provide that reached a "claimed 1700 FPS" was a surplus powder WC680. No over the counter powder and no pressure data.

If you ever shot a load that acctualy achieved 1700 FPS in the 500 S&W with a 500 grain bullet, then post a picture. If you can't post a picture then email one to me or Whitworth or who ever and we will post it for you.

I for one do not buy ever unsubstanciated claim that I see. Without pressure dat for the powder load combo there is no accurate way to know the pressure that the revolver is being subjected to and no way to validate the dat on that web site.

you are right it can't be done it is in fact iimpossable to get 1700 fps with 500gr bullet out of 500 smith because there is no published data sayin it.my bad if there is no published data it can't be done in a safe manner by working up a load. i will prove nothing to somebody that i do not seek approvel from in the first place, and belive me when i say i do not seek aprovel from someone like you.:)

you are right it can't be done it is in fact iimpossable to get 1700 fps with 500gr bullet out of 500 smith because there is no published data sayin it.my bad if there is no published data it can't be done in a safe manner by working up a load. i will prove nothing to somebody that i do not seek approvel from in the first place, 1-and belive me when i say i do not seek aprovel from someone like you.:)


Of course I never said that it can not be done, I asked about the presure, "is it with safe SAAMI pressure limits" and of course you did not answer that pertinent question.

I can get 2900 FPS with a 338 Win Mag with a 250 Grain Partition (been there done that) but, not with-in safe pressures.

1- When no facts are left the only move left for some are the personal insults.

OK, guys, be civil.

Bye
Jack

you are right it can't be done it is in fact iimpossable to get 1700 fps with 500gr bullet out of 500 smith because there is no published data sayin it.my bad if there is no published data it can't be done in a safe manner by working up a load. i will prove nothing to somebody that i do not seek approvel from in the first place, and belive me when i say i do not seek aprovel from someone like you.:)


Why are you getting all hot under the collar? Slowsuki, I have learned loads from jwp as he has taken lots of big game and has been handgun hunting longer than I suspect you have been on this earth. We can have these discussions without resorting to insults. Let's here about these loads.

i think there were personal insults going both ways. i load 10mm 220gr hardcast bullets to 1250 fps with imr 800x.hodgdon gives a max load at 1130fps for 200gr hardcast . i got the load from someone who has shot 1000,s of them in his gun i have shot 100,s in my gun, so am i being unsafe? like i said it can be done ,has been done, but there is no reason to. i think a 50 cal 500grain bullet going 1200fps will go through most animals on this planet. only reason to speed up is for flatter shooting.

Guys, even though he gets hot, he is making some sense over proper boolits and velocity.
Now I want to see .460 groups from someone. I would like to see deer pictures shot with one at 50 to 75 yd's and how much edible meat is left.

i think there were personal insults going both ways. i load 10mm 220gr hardcast bullets to 1250 fps with imr 800x.hodgdon gives a max load at 1130fps for 200gr hardcast . i got the load from someone who has shot 1000,s of them in his gun i have shot 100,s in my gun, so am i being unsafe? like i said it can be done ,has been done, but there is no reason to. i think a 50 cal 500grain bullet going 1200fps will go through most animals on this planet. only reason to speed up is for flatter shooting.


The definition of safe is; "100 percent removal of all hazards", anything less is considered unsafe by industry standards. Removing 90% of the hazards may be an acceptable risk, but not 100% safe.

Shooting a load that is 120 FPS faster than the max load for a bullet 20 grains lighter means that you are in untested territory and have no way of knowing the pressure of the load, or whether or not the metal in the pistol is under undue stress or if it will or will not fail at some point due to metal fatigue.

The 1911 pistol was/ is strong enough to shoot hotter loads than the original load of a 230 grain bullet at 830 FPS, along with stronger brass SAAMI has a spec for +P Ammo. The guns will not blow up with +P, but will not last as long as with standard pressure loads

Sometimes an accident happens without taking undue risk. This past hunting season a man in his 30's hunting Deer here on the game reserve had the bolt blow out of his rifle and hit him in the face. He was shooting a rifle that he bought 2 weeks before and factory loads (the man does not reload). To take unnecessary risk for little to no gain is not good odds IMHO, certainly not worth the risk.

i agree thet you take a chance when you start going into uncharted water but it does not meen it can,t be done in a resonably safe manner. the reason i do not give charge loads is so someone does not go out and try to load max load and his or her gun has some flaw and blows up.

OK I think we have beaten this topic to death, as we seem to do about once a year or so.

For those who will get really, really, really wound up about theoretical ballistics, stopping power, arm-chair quarterbacking, et al ..... please look up some of the wound channel pictures, posted in this thread and others, with plain ol' vanilla cartridges and loads, and study them carefully.

There's a lot to be learned by getting out in the field and doing (and from teh experiences of those who have done so), and very little by reading about ballistic forumulas.

Thread locked.

I'm not near the handgun hunter some of you guys are, but have killed one Brown bear in Alaska in a nasty situation. This using 240 grain jacketed factory soft points from a Smith 6.5 inch model 29. I carry and shoot a 2 inch snubby 38 special and have shot a bunch of 357 snubbies and now carry and shoot a 4 inch ported 41 magnum for a woods carry gun.

I'd much rather have a 4 inch or better gun for the shear ability to shoot it accurately than a two inch. I did spend a bunch of years handgun hunting with the 44 mags and found that on black bear (19 of them) and deer (never counted them) with the 44 mag at least a 255 grain hardcast run at 1250 fps seemed to kill much better than any jacketed bullet I tried. Kudo's for the guys recommending a heavy hardcast at moderate velocities.

After being in a stressful situation with a big grizzly I'd sure go along with JWP and carry a lighter gun than the big X framed Smith. While I was up a Cabela's yesterday I picked up and handled both the 2 inch X frame and the 4 incher and both sure seem a monstrous heavy rig to carry and use in the woods. Certainly not a belt gun even in the 2 inch configuration. I guess that's why I carry the 38 ounce 41 mag now.

Anyway those shots thru the buffalo sure are impressive. I sure enjoyed my time handgun hunting and wish I was able to climb the mountains around here enough to do that anymore.