I have now loaded my 30-30 with unique,blue dot,red dot and 2400. I want more loads using pistol powder. I would like some using 700x,800x or PB. Bullet weights would be 100-180 gr lead or jacketed. If you have some please share them. I have the Trail Boss data already. Thank you so much.Jim

You can duplicate your Red Dot load using 700X; my Savage 340 likes 7.0 grains under a 150-170 cast bullet for about 1200 fps. I haven't used 800X or PB in mine, but I note that you can use 7 grains of darn near any pistol powder for mild 30-30 loads. I do avoid true spherical powders like AA#5 because such powders do not react well with a lot of empty airspace in the case. Stick to flake or small extruded kernel types and you'll be fine.

Thanks so much.I found a AAC-#7 load but it scares me. I dont think it takes up enough room in the case at all.

I posted this question on several different sites. I wanted to try and
get as many new loads as possible. I also wanted to compare the answers.
I posted the links so you could see the various responses.
I thought it would be easier to share like this.
Some of the people were quite helpful.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have now loaded my 30-30 with unique,blue dot,red dot and 2400.
I want more loads using pistol powder. I would like some using 700x,800x or PB.
Bullet weights would be 100-180 gr cast lead OR jacketed.
If you have some please share them. I have the Trail Boss data already.
Thank you so much.Jim

http://forum.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=2596#post2596

http://reloaders.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=822

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=2499&forum_id=8&jump_to=14137#p14137

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=376970

http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=48396

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301792

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,31270.msg289699.html#msg289699

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/handloading/56009-30-30-pistol-powder.html

JimKim,

Interesting subject. Historically speaking, from 1896 to the mid 1920's, .30-30 "Short Range" cartridges "For small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary" were offered as a standard factory loading.

They were factory produced .30-30's with 100 and 117 gr. lead bullets to replicate .32-20 performance. Being somewhat of a .30-30 nut, I have done an exhaustive study on this interesting class of .30-30 cartridges.

I acquired a number of specimens to dissect and test and all were loaded with anywhere from 4.4 grs. to 9.0 grs. of various early smokeless powders loaded loosely in the cases.

Before placing this ammunition on the market, the ammunition companies would have done some exhaustive testing to make sure there would not be any problem, and .........there wasn't.http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/images/emoticons/big_grin.gif

Here are some of the earlier .30-30 "Short Range" loadings:

100 gr. lead 4.4 Bullseye / 5.0 Walsrode / 9.0 DuPont No. 2 Bulk Smokeless

117 gr. lead 6.0 Ballistite / 6.0 Walsrode / 7.0 Schultz / 7.0 Marksman

In testing equivalent charges of current powders, I found these to be ballistic equivalents of the early smokeless powders in these loadings:

Walsrode & Ballistite - 4756, Trail Boss

Schultz & Marksman - Blue Dot, HS7, 571

DuPont No. 2 Bulk Smokeless - 2400

Unique, Universal and 800X produced a bit more velocity in equal charge weights than 4756 and Trail Boss, but are very close equivalents in the charge weights above.

Cartridge history sure is interesting!

John

A load with AA#7 worries me, too, jimkim.

As I mentioned in the post above, stick to flake or extruded powders and avoid spherical (ball) powders for this use. An exception might be a flattened ball powder like W231, which more closely resembles a flake powder than a true ball. I've used W231 with no problems. But true sphericals should be avoided.

Rocky,
I have no experience with AA-7 but I believe that 571 and HS-7 are very similar. In shooting the .30-30 with 7 gr. charges under a 120 gr. cast bullet (3118), velocities were very consistant and accuracy very good. I do position the powder to the back of the case though. I have also found 231 in 5.5 gr. charges to also give very good results with the same bullet.

Regarding ball powders, I believe you are correct, but with powders having the burning rate of H110/W296 and slower.

John

I do avoid true spherical powders like AA#5 because such powders do not react well with a lot of empty airspace in the case. Stick to flake or small extruded kernel types and you'll be fine.

Rocky, could you say more about this, please?

- What happens to spherical powders in cases with lots of air space?

- What is different about the spherical powders; why doesn't the same thing happen with flake or extruded powders?

- How much air space is too much with spherical powders? How close to 100% loading density do we need to be to prevent problems?

Are there any reference materials or links you could recommend to provide more education on the use of spherical powders?

Thanks,

The Old Guy

I use 9 gr. of Alliant Power Pistol with a Lyman 311291 sized to .309 in my trapper. This load shoots real well in that little gun.

Well now Alliant has come out with a warning regarding Blue Dot. Now I'm nervous about buying Alliant Blue Dot. I have been using my Hercules Blue Dot for nearly twenty years. I am down to a half pound. Now I have trust issues with Alliant powder. Have any of you had problems with the new Blue Dot in any 30-30 loads? My fav Blue Dot load is 13gr under a 150gr bullet. My second fav is 9gr unique under a 100-110gr plinker. My rifle shoots these loads equally well with lead or jacketed bullets.

A couple replies here...

Fist, the Blue Dot warning: Alliant has posted a warning that says new testing on their part has revealed two potentially hazardous load combinations. The first is Blue Dot when used in the .357 Magnum with 125-gr bullets only. The second involves using Blue Dot in the 41 Magnum with any and all bullets. We are advised to avoid both. All OTHER previously listed uses of Blue Dot are still fine.

While the use of Blue Dot in reduced loads with bottlenecked rifle rounds is less well documented, it is something that Alliant ballisticians are aware of (and practice in their personal guns). They have issued no such warning with regard to that use, so we may presume it is still safe to do so - within all other normal reloading practices, of course.

Now, to TOG and ball powders: Very reduced loads that leave significant airspace have been shown to result in hangfires, incomplete ignition and failure to fire; but have also been shown to result in very high pressure spikes strong enough to damage guns. The exact mechanism for the spikes is debatable, but it does happen. The poor or incomplete ignition is thought to result from the heavy deterrent coatings applied to most spherical powders. Apparently, spherical powders do not ignite properly unless the granules stay in close proximity to each other. Excessive airspace allows them to disperse enough to limit or prevent ignition. Known examples are H110 and W296 (the same powder sold under different names) for which the makers recommend either NO reduction to case-filling charges or at most 3% reductions.

Flake and extruded powders depend on granuale shape and size to control burning, using much less or different deterrent coatings. They do not suffer from ignition difficulties for that reason.

One oddball powder is W231, which falls between the two. It is a ball powder, but is heavily rolled into flake shape to control its burn rate. It performs like a double-base flake with regard to ignition, and can be used in much-reduced loads.

I have now loaded my 30-30 with unique,blue dot,red dot and 2400. I want more loads using pistol powder. I would like some using 700x,800x or PB. Bullet weights would be 100-180 gr lead or jacketed. If you have some please share them. I have the Trail Boss data already. Thank you so much.Jim

I am experimenting with 1.0 cc of WC820 surplus powder and ~ 180 grain Lee GC bullet sized at about .312" . About 2" at 100 yards in a scoped Marlin .

Next batch will be in a scoped Winny .

This powder is said to be ~ to AA#9 or maybe ~ to H110 . It is said this is what Uncle Sam used for .30 Carbine ?

God bless
Wyr

Thanks so much.I found a AAC-#7 load but it scares me. I dont think it takes up enough room in the case at all.

I took a ball point pen that the non-writing end will fit in a .30-30 brass .

Weight your favorite load and dump it into the brass . Gently push the end of the ball point into the brass untill it comes to rest on the powder . Mark this length on the ball point .

Fill your loading block up with empty brass and drop your powder charge in each one .

Now , use the ball point to check the powder level in each brass . A double charge is very apparent .

I find this easier than trying to look down the brass , with a flash light .

I use this with my 1.0 cc load of WC820 .

God bless
Wyr

Thanks much, Rocky. I knew there had to be a reason, I just didn't know what it was.

The Old Guy

(Who says an old dog can't learn new tricks?)

Wyr, you may disregard this as the paranoid ramblings of a hoary old coot, but...

That's not a safe load.

Swap to a flake or extruded powder. Now. Please.

See my post above.

I took a ball point pen that the non-writing end will fit in a .30-30 brass .

Weight your favorite load and dump it into the brass . Gently push the end of the ball point into the brass untill it comes to rest on the powder . Mark this length on the ball point .

Fill your loading block up with empty brass and drop your powder charge in each one .

Now , use the ball point to check the powder level in each brass . A double charge is very apparent .

I find this easier than trying to look down the brass , with a flash light .

I use this with my 1.0 cc load of WC820 .

God bless
Wyr
I do the same thing with an old pencil. I'm not worried about a double charge. What worries me are pressure spikes from an erratic burn rate caused by the powder shifting or spreading out in the case.

18gns of W296 110gn round nose.

I spent a lot of time years ago shooting with the Cast Bullet Association. I was fond of a 30-30 load for a Hunter Pistol event that they ran and which I was able to win twice shooting 110gr. RNGC bullets from a Lee Mold on top of seven grains of Unique. The standard deviation for that load was 10fps.
Pete

You guys are great. I am soooo glad I posted those links. I get to come back and check for new data every now and then. Thanks again guys, as a certain redhead used to tell me "Your THE Bombdiggity" (I always took that as a compliment). Jim

Rocky,
I have no experience with AA-7 but I believe that 571 and HS-7 are very similar. In shooting the .30-30 with 7 gr. charges under a 120 gr. cast bullet (3118), velocities were very consistent and accuracy very good. I do position the powder to the back of the case though. I have also found 231 in 5.5 gr. charges to also give very good results with the same bullet.

Regarding ball powders, I believe you are correct, but with powders having the burning rate of H110/W296 and slower.

John
I sent the AAC-#7 data to Accurate Arms and they said it was safe. I still don't completely trust it. When you loaded the W-231 what did you use to position the powder? I am thinking of dryer lint. I thought about using Styrofoam "peanuts" as well. I really don't want to use any COW type filler with a bottlenecked case. Thanks. Jim

The bullets I am working with right now are:
RCBS 180FN GC,
Lyman 308241's, 150gr PB
SAECO #630's, 140gr PB
Lyman 311041's. 172gr GC