Sunday Sabbath Worship Why ???

I'm curious as Christians many if not most of us worship on Sunday which is the first day of the week.

I have been trying to find evidence why we do this the bible and the 10 Commandments state that we should honor or Father in heaven and honor the sanctify of his Sabbath which is the seventh day or Saturday.

In my studies I have found that it was Emperor Constantine of Rome in 321AD that introduce the first Sunday worship laws these laws did exempt the farm/agriculture workers.

He supposedly did this to appease the Sunday Sun worshipers and Socrates is quoted as stating how it was weird that in the city of Constantinopole Sunday worship was going on.

Another thing that I discovered was that up until this time Saturday Sabbath keeping was the norm.

In 364AD at the Council of Laodecia (could have spelt that wrong) which was make up exclusely of Roman Catholics introduced a total Sunday Sabbath law where everyone had to stop all work on Sundays.

This went on until 1798 when Napolean arrested the Pope and confiscated all the moneys and lands in the name of France.

I understand that many believe that the 10 Commandments were done away with when Jesus was crucified but from my studies I now see that it was Mose's Mosaic laws that were done away with not the 10 Commandments.

Guys help me out here I want to be that best that I can be and feel that I should be trying to keep all of the commandments not just 9 of them.

Yes I also understand that I am a human and thus can't be sinless but I can try to the best of my abilities.

Thanks for any thoughts.

You are right about the sabbath being on Saturday and I know there are some faiths that follow the law. But I believe that with the NT we no longer have to live by the law alone. So celebrating the sabboth on Sunday is fine.
I also know other Christians that pick other days as the sabboth to worship & study.
I have said this many times that Religion is faulted because it was made by man.
Christianity is perfect because it was made by God.
I still go to church because it is a strong place fellowship and learn. But I try to spend more time with Jesus in a personal relationship.

Maybe I am out to lunch but that is how I feel.

Christianity is perfect because it was made by God.

I totally agree...

I have never been able to find the verses in the NT that state that we are not to live by God's 10 Commandments or that they were done away with, I have found were the Mosaic law was done away with but not the 10 Commandments.

Which brings me to if they were not done away with they must still be God's law and we are to try and live by them if we are Christians.

Sunday is the Lord's Day, meaning that He rose from the dead on Sunday. The early church always held Sunday to be sacred because of this. Here is a link giving some of the history.

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Sunday

You are right but God knows that we will fall short of his laws that why the NT preachs Grace.

Not all Christian religeons recognize Sunday as the correct day to worship. Unless I'm mistaken 7th Day Adventists worship on Saturday.

Sunday is the Lord's Day, meaning that He rose from the dead on Sunday. The early church always held Sunday to be sacred because of this. Here is a link giving some of the history.

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Sunday


If this is true why were they still commonly celebrating the seventh day Sabbath over 300 years after Christ had risen?

As I stated in my first post it wasn't until Constantine in 321AD and then the Council of Laodecia in 364AD that keeping Sunday sabbath really started happening/being enforced.

Go back and read the book of Acts. The Council of Jerusalem told the Gentile Christians to abstain from fornication and the blood of strangled animals. They did not constrain them to obey the laws that Isreal in all its history was unable to keep in faithfullness.

Just read the link I guess my problem is that I do not recognize man as being equal or before God so cannot follow man's laws before God's law.

I feel very strongly that man does not have the right to change God's laws.

Now if were to be pointed out from the bible that God changed his day of worship I wouldn't have a problem with this.

I need more than one verse more like a series of verses that would prove this I guess.

Thanks for the thoughts so far guys I appreciate them.

edit to add;

308 as I understand it those were the Mosaic laws that you are refering too they were done away with not the 10 Commandments.

First off, the ten commandments are all repeated in the New Testament except for the Sabath. Although Christians aren't under the Old Testament Jewish law, the instructions, as shown in the New Testament, applies to us.

Christians worship on the first day of the week as shown in the New Testament. This practice started in the first century, not with Constantine. We are in a new covenant with God through Christ's death, the old was done away with, see Hebrews 9:15-17

I Cor. 16:1-2

Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

Acts 20:7

On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.


I agree that the 10 commandments or moral law is still valid and we are supposed to obey God's commands out of love for and thankfulness to him. I agree that it is important for us to keep the Sabbath as God has commanded. I think the biblical reasoning for keeping the Sabbath on Sunday is a bit thin. But I don't think whether we keep the Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday is really the important issue. Afterall, the bible never says that Sunday is the first day of the week. The whole calendar is sort of arbitrary and worked out by man in conjunction with the workings of the heavenly bodies created by God. The particular name of the last day of the week is a man-made determination - it's not in the bible.

It reminds me of the Samaritan woman at the well who asked whether they should worship on the mountain or in Jerusalem. Jesus didn't answer the question about the proper location for worship, but responded that the important thing now is that the Father be worshipped in spirit and truth. I tend to think maybe this could be applicable to particular days of the week also. Maybe the day of the week is not so important as is the Father being worshipped in spirit and truth. Maybe that's the real important thing to focus on here.

I do believe the Sabbath day should be kept in corporation with other believers in Christ's visible church. We're not spiritual lone rangers out there living the Christian life by ourselves. God has called us into a community of believers and we have responsibilities to each other. God has also called his church to corporate, public worship in the manner that he has prescribed. I believe there is wide lattitude on how an individual may choose to privately worship God on the Sabbath day, but not to the exclusion of the public worship together with other believers in Christ's church.

We are in a new covenant with God through Christ's death, the old was done away with, see Hebrews 9:15-17


On a side note, MontyF, I agree that Christ is the mediator of a "new" and "better" covenant. But, I'd hesitate to say the "old one" was "done away with" Over and over again, the "old" covenant is described as the "everlasting covenant" (search on "everlasting covenant" at biblegateway.com produces the following: Gen 9:16, Gen 17:7, 2 Sam 23:5, I Chron. 16:17, among many others) I think the new and better covenant is an expansion and improvement upon the operation of the everlasting covenant, yet the basic covenant of grace is eternal and has and never will pass away. It seems the covenant of grace first established with Adam continues to be improved and expanded with Abraham, then Moses, then David, and finally reaching it's perfect and final culmination in Christ. Yet, its basic underpining is essentially the same everlasting covenant instituted by God since the beginning of redemptive history.


Heb 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


That's sort of way off topic, isn't it? Sorry. :)

Two good questions, easy to answer too.

"I'm curious as Christians many if not most of us worship on Sunday which is the first day of the week."

New Christins started Sunday worship and Bible study almost immediately after the resurection, even before anyone thought of it as the "Lord's Day." They did that because almost all of the original Christian Church were observant Jews who also observed their traditional Sabbath observances from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. They went to the homes of friends on the next day, Sunday, to examine the scripture about things related to Jesus, things they couldn't discuss in the synagogs. They frequently had a sort of "covered dish" dinner while doing so. Later, things were sort of santified by repetition, as man still tends to do, and it was not only ok but was considered as the only way to hold worship. THEN they took the cover of Sunday being the "Lord's Day" but that seems to have been something of a stretch of logic even at the time and many made any deviation from that tradition of men a new "sin".

"I have been trying to find evidence why we do this the bible and the 10 Commandments state that we should honor or Father in heaven and honor the sanctify of his Sabbath which is the seventh day or Saturday."

What the scripture says is to remember the Sabath Day and keep it holy. What most folks don't know is that "sabath" means a "sit down" or day of rest. There were many other Sabaths, each a holy day decreed by God for certain commemoratives. None of them were neccessarly a seventh day. In fact, we can be sure that NO ONE remembered the order of days from creation until the Mosiac Law, which includes the Ten Commandments, was intitated. Why not? Well, as Jesus said, the Sabath was initiated for man, not God, so which day of seven was observed didn't make a bit of difference to God if we simply observed one day in the week and made it "holy" to him. Man on the other hand, once again, liked to make things all nice and "legal" so those with the privilige of not having to earn their keep on their "appointed" sabath, and made any deviation a sin.

In all this what we can see original sin, that of wanting to eat from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" so we could make our own rules for life being repeated. Man loves to make his own rules. We often keep them until a tradition is formed and say that repetition santifys our own ideas. Our oun legalist beliefs are discounted by scripture but it's not easy for later generations to over come those traditions.

Now, want to know why we hold the morning worship hour from 11 to 12? (True story!) Catholics used to have two 1 hour services on Sunday, one very early for the grunt labor force and one later for the lazy gentry. In the 1500s, Martin Luther, the "reformer" who was cast out of the Roman Church for rejecting the validity of its traditions, wanted to hold only one service for all people; that was good I think. But, Marty also liked to sit up late Saturday nights in his kitchen talking theology and drinking a bit of ale with his friends. That, of course, lead to some difficulty getting up early enough to hold a really early morning worship so he started to slip the schedule. But, tradition dictated a morning worship hour and he couldn't start later than 11 and still call it a worship hour. So, the 11 to 12 Sunday "Sabbath" service was born and it has long been sanctified, with very few people today having any real idea of why!

(Note: Our modern seven-day calander is a Roman invention, made only a few years before the birth of Jesus. We can trust that it was not derived from the Jewish calender as my 7th Day Adventist friends contend.)

I feel the day is important because God rested on the seventh day and sanctified it.

In other words he made it into a special day and if God did this then it must be something that should be respected.

I think I will look into these 7th Day Adventists that 2 of you guys have mentioned now I have heard about them before and that they get all of their answers directly from the bible and do not change things like man has been doing for so long.


In fact, we can be sure that NO ONE remembered the order of days from creation until the Mosiac Law, which includes the Ten Commandments, was intitated


I disagree with this statement I have always understood that God gave the 10 Commandments to Moses and commanded that Moses write the Mosaic law.

I can't remember were I found this right now but according to jewish history the 10 Commandments were always stored in the Arch whereas the book of the Mosaic law was stored leaning against the Arch in the temple.

Meaning that they were seperate laws and that the 10 Commandments were God's laws supported by/seperate from Man's laws.

Consider a couple of points from the New Testament. Jesus did away with many of the Mosaic laws, most commonly dietary and ritual washings, that were not based on justice and love (see Mark 7). Jesus was more interested in love than blind obediance to meaningless statutes. He cured a woman on the sabbath (Lk 13:10). St. Paul also called the Galations idiots for adherence to laws for the sake of the law (Gal 4:4).

Also note that there is a new covenant in Christ Jesus. He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it(Mt 5:17). Thus one cannot write off the 10 commandments of the OT. One must also remember that the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath (Mt 1:8). In fact Jesus said "that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

308 Shooter is correct in that Sunday was chosen as that is the day of the ressurection, which is the key event in salvation history. We are renewed in Christ Jesus as we make the ressurection present each Sunday at Holy Mass. We are sanctified on the 7th day in creation, and are redeemed on the day of the ressurection of Christ Jesus. As I see it, we cannot make another day other than the dey of the ressurection the sabbath.

In His service,

L

Everyday is the Lord's day...ACTS 13:42 , ACTS 20:7. every day is HOLY for each one He as made......from sabbath,to sabbath.. Hear is two meetings the early Church had, and you will find more diff. days as well if you add thing up.as the book reads....BBB

I'm not a Bible scholar, but it is my understanding that honoring the Sabbath is a testimony of the relationship between God and His chosen. This is what sets His people apart from the rest of the world.

There is a direct link to this for the offspring of Abraham. Christians are grafted into this vine, so this commandment should also apply.

Again, this is my opinion, as I'm not a Bible scholar, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.

Also note that there is a new covenant in Christ Jesus. He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it(Mt 5:17). Thus one cannot write off the 10 commandments of the OT. One must also remember that the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath (Mt 1:8). In fact Jesus said "that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

308 Shooter is correct in that Sunday was chosen as that is the day of the ressurection, which is the key event in salvation history. We are renewed in Christ Jesus as we make the ressurection present each Sunday at Holy Mass. We are sanctified on the 7th day in creation, and are redeemed on the day of the ressurection of Christ Jesus. As I see it, we cannot make another day other than the dey of the ressurection the sabbath.

In His service,

L

I'm sorry but it looks like you are contradicting yourself, in the first paragraph you say that the 10 Commandments of the OT are still in effect then you go on to change God's word and say that Sunday the first day is now Sabbath.

Could you please give bible verses to show how God changed his holy day from Saturday too Sunday.

I'm not refering to were man has decided because Jesus arose on Sunday I need biblical facts not assumtions.

Too me after the crucifixtion Jesus rested on the seventh day so there was no change by God and man shouldn't assume there was a change unless God made it because man has no right to change God's law.

I've been checking into these 7th Day Adventists that a couple of you guys mentioned earlier and found this site.

Firstly let me say that I found a lot of negative writings on them it was so negative that I started to wonder why, they are either the craziest bunch of extremists I have ever read about or they are right and the attacks against them are because of the fear of exposure to false/deceptive doctorins that many have been pushing onto their followers.

Check this link out it is from an Adventist site called Amazing Facts the biblical facts that they use to show what is written in the bible is amazing I mean from what I have seen so far they are only using the bible to show/prove their beliefs.

I was listening to one of the sermon's from the head pastor Doug where he was talking about "that he is a 7th Day Adventist because they have the best bible truths if he were to find another orginization that had better bible truths he would not be an 7DA any longer but would join that group in a heart beat but he can't find one".

I believe that the bible is were all truths should come from and that man has no right to change bible truths. Didn't Jesus say somewhere to be aware of those that will try and change his word? Found it... :) and think to change times and laws” _(Daniel 7:25).

This is a fairly long read but well worth it.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStuff/OnlineLibrary/tabid/106/ctl/ViewMedia/mid/447/IID/22/LNG/en/SC/R/Default.aspx?7=Is-Sunday-Really-Sacred?

I read a comment somewhere in my searching that goes like this "do not take just one verse out of context it is like building a straight fence you have to put one post in at a time and make sure it is straight with the other posts, use several if not dozens of verses to build a straight fence of biblical understanding"...

Here is another link from the same site this is what I am looking for actual bible truths.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStuff/OnlineLibrary/tabid/106/ctl/ViewMedia/mid/447/IID/67/LNG/en/7/Three-Days-and-Three-Nights/SC/R/Default.aspx

Wether we believe that the sabbath should be Saturday or Sunday should not be a issue,Jesus in the NT told us that we are to go out into all the world and preach his good news. I believe that if we get caught up in doctrine then Satan is winning because we are not concentrating on winning souls for Jesus.
I wish that I could understand the Bible like most of you do but I do not think that is going to happen so I try to do the best I can with help from fellow Christians.
I know that in our church Pentacostal we believe in speaking in tongues some other faiths do not believe that we have the right to do that, but because we are man we will always have differences.

If we are going to be technical and legalistic and say that if it isn't in the bible we can't do it, I would just like to point out that the word Saturday doesn't exist in the bible. Nor does Sunday. Since neither is specifically tied to the sabbath in the bible I think that we are free to chose any day of the week as our sabbath, so long as we keep it holy and rest. We work six days and keep one for the Lord. I choose Sunday as my sabbath day.

Sask boy as I see it it has nothing too do with the right to speak in tongues.

Biblically speaking in tongues was the ability of Jesus's diciples to go to others that did not speak the same language, give a sermon/talk and everyone understood what was being said.

There was never a interpretor there to translate for them in other words everyone understood exactly the same thing at the same time.

This is why many are against what is going on in the Pentacostal churches they do not see it as being God inspired.

I found this on the Amazing Facts web site this is an amazing site I can't thank you guys enough for talking about the 7DA's the clarity of thought back biblically is awesome...

http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStuff/OnlineLibrary/tabid/106/ctl/ViewMedia/mid/447/IID/15/LNG/en/7/Understanding-Tongues/SC/R/Default.aspx

308 I both agree and disagree with you if we live ours lives to the best of our understanding of the bible/beliefs it doesn't matter but if it is pointed out biblically that we are keeping the wrong day and we still choose to follow our own traditions then I think there is an issue.

and why I am asking others this question.

Once again I want to thank all of you for your thought/input...

Moki, I am glad that you have seemed to have found some of the answers to your questions, but please remember that the Bible is always being interperted and all opinions are just that. Jesus stated that when he left he would send someone else and I think that was the Holy Spirit and on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles. This was a gift given to them by God and since we are all apostles God has given this gift to all of us.
I do not want to argue who's faith is right or wrong and as a bible believing, tongue talking Christian I just want to spread his love to all that will listen. I have only been born again for 5 years but was brought up Latterday Saint so I do know about what doctrine can do. I just know that for me being Apostolic has brought me closer to Jesus in my personal relationship. So I hope that you find what you are searching for and may the love of Christ be with you.

As 308shtr mentions - nowhere does the bible say which is the first day of the week and which is the last day. Maybe if you counted back the number of days since creation, we would find that the world really began on what we now call Tuesday and therefore, Monday is really the last day of the week. We just can't know. Various calendars used throughout history haven't necessarily even had seven days in a week.

Since calling Sunday the first day of the week is a rather recent and completely man-made, arbitrary decision, I think it would be rather foolish to build one's entire system of theology around the issue. If any individual's conscience tells them to worship on Saturday rather than Sunday, then I guess that's what they should do. But focusing on this issue and making it a core element of one's beliefs is a major disregard for the things that are really important. It is focuses on the trivial instead of what really matters in the Christian faith.

Amen, Kart29

In the Old Testament there were specific days to worship. God ordained which days those were. For example passover was celebrated on the evening of fourteeth day of the first month every year. The children of Israel had no difficulty in understanding what God said or meant. On the first passover if they got it wrong or was disobiendant their first born died.

According to Vines dictionary of New Testament words:" Sabbath is from the word Sabbaton or Sabbata: the latter is the plural. The root means to cease or desist (Hebrew shabath). The idea is not that of relaxation or refreshment, but from cessation from activity." Later the jews added so much restriction to this day it became a burdon and lead to many confrontations between Jesus and the Jewish leaders of the day.

The Lord's day IS NOT THE SABBATH, no where in the Bible are two confussed or become one. Again, the first century Christians met on the Lord's day not the Sabbath. There are cases shown in the New Testament where the apostles went to synagogues and were often put out of synagogues for preaching Christ. As Christians we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together Heb 10:25. But we are given examples of what day the Saints met and what was done on the first day of the week.

Just for what it worth, Acts 1:21-22 lays down the qualifications of those who are apostles of Jesus Christ.

but please remember that the Bible is always being interperted and all opinions are just that.

Is it being interpreted or is it being rewritten to change the very meaning of the bible in many cases I have now been seeing that the specialness of God is being removed.

I personally after discovering that the new versions of the bible have many of the meanings of their verses changed have gone back to the KJV yes it is at times tougher to read due to the the's and thou's but the specialness of God is not taken away.

I have read up on a couple of supposed protestant priests Hort & Westcott whom in the late 1800's contrived together to change the very meaning of the bible an amazing study actually and one that is being discussed on Greybeards Outdoors forum right now.

Here is the link...

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,139963.0.html

What are you really struggling with, Moki? This is an odd one to get totally hung up on. As previously mentioned, the NT church began meeting on Sunday to commemorate Jesus' resurrection, and Jesus Himself did not say much to enforce which day the Sabbath should be. My wife works in church, so under your set of thoughts, ALL serving, ministerial Christians from the beginning, have grievously sinned before God for first, leading believers to gather on the wrong day, and then by working themselves. Foolishness. You pick your day. Friday. Who cares. Do pick one. It's between you and God. Man made the calender, not God. Jesus indeed did come to free us from these traps, for we miss the important by focussing on the unimportant. Yes, we're commanded to obey. And given some flexibility here on how to do that.

Hey Guys, I think it is good to discuss things and debate them as well, but we can not forget what Jesus has asked us all to do. (The #1 thing) go out into all the world and spread his Good News.

What are you really struggling with, Moki? This is an odd one to get totally hung up on. As previously mentioned, the NT church began meeting on Sunday to commemorate Jesus' resurrection, and Jesus Himself did not say much to enforce which day the Sabbath should be.

I have never seen anywhere in the bible that tells me that the seventh day sabbath was changed to the first day.

Many are saying it doesn't matter what day that you worship due to the 10 commandments being done away with at the cross which I disagree with, it was the Mosaic law that was done away with and the 10 commandments had nothing to do with the Mosaic law.

The Catholic church claims it was them that changed the sabbath to the first day and that the bible shows that it is the seventh day.

When I read Revelation Chapter 13 verse 12 it states "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".

From this verse from the last book of the bible and many others through out the bible I see that the 10 commandments was not done away with and that we need to follow all of God's commandments as directed by God not just the ones we feel are relevant to our lives.

I am not having a stuggle more of looking @ why Sunday worship that is not biblical but the traditions of man is followed by so many.

The Catholic church claims it was them that changed the sabbath to the first day and that the bible shows that it is the seventh day.



At the time the Catholic Church was the only Christian denomination. This was the Church which maintained the faith and whose Councils decided what books would be included in the New Testament. Without the Catholic Church we wouldn't have the Bible.

The world after Christ had only the Septuagint, the carefully preserved letters of the Apostles and a succession of Bishops passing down what they were taught by the Apostles, the first of whom were hand picked by the Apostles and whose successors were selected by groups of Bishops acting in agreement.

We know from the Bible that Christians met on the "First Day", the "Lord's Day", to worship. This had nothing to do with pagan celebrations, but rather the reverence they had for the day our Lord rose from the dead. The successors to the Apostles decided to make the first day the day of rest, a "sabbath" for Christians. The seventh day was the sabbath for the Jews, the first day for the Christian. This sabbath on the first day was common practice and, in fact, codified by the Church before the Canon of Scripture was established.

How important was, and is, the Lord's Day? Christ revealed Himself to John on the Lord's Day and caused him to write the Book of Revelations, which, by the way, Luther wanted to remove from the Bible.

<DIR>Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of **** and of death.
</DIR>
In Christ,

Willis

I have never seen anywhere in the bible that tells me that the seventh day sabbath was changed to the first day.

(MontyF: You are not alone, I can't find it either)

Many are saying it doesn't matter what day that you worship due to the 10 commandments being done away with at the cross which I disagree with, it was the Mosaic law that was done away with and the 10 commandments had nothing to do with the Mosaic law.

(MontyF:
1. From who did Moses recieve instruction concerning the law and the 10 commandments?
2. Who was the law given to?
3. Who did the law apply to?
4. Where in the New Testament is the 4th commandment given to Christians?)

The Catholic church claims it was them that changed the sabbath to the first day and that the bible shows that it is the seventh day.

( MontyF: I know nothing of that group, just know from the Bible the Sabbath isn't the first day of the week. First century Christians began meeting, breaking bread, setting aside in store, preaching, edifing, ministering to needy souls on the Lord's day, which is the first day of the week. Oh yeah, this started about 33AD. Catholic church started about 300 AD?)

When I read Revelation Chapter 13 verse 12 it states "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".

( MontyF: John says, I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day... Rev 1:10. John held that day as important since he told us what day it was he received his vision and was in a state of worship)

From this verse from the last book of the bible and many others through out the bible I see that the 10 commandments was not done away with and that we need to follow all of God's commandments as directed by God not just the ones we feel are relevant to our lives.

(MontyF: I agree, I need to be obediant to the Lord's commands, all of them instead of just the ones I choose or am comfortable with. Thank God for mercy and forgiveness because I sin a lot through weekness and ignorance!)

I am not having a stuggle more of looking @ why Sunday worship that is not biblical but the traditions of man is followed by so many.

(MontyF: Moki, I'm curious, with whom do you meet and when? What does your bodies' worship consist of? I'm happy that you appear to base your questions and responses from the Bible. I'm however confused how so many scriptures in the New Testament is being ignored by your reasoning.)

I feel very strongly that man does not have the right to change God's laws.

Now if were to be pointed out from the bible that God changed his day of worship I wouldn't have a problem with this...
On the 7th day, He rested, and made it the Sabbath. The basic problem is that on the prior 6 days, he didn't invent a calendar, and didn't record the names of the days. So, which day we pick for the Sabbath is pretty arbitrary - it might even have been a Wednesday, but just got mixed up over the intervening thousands of years for all we know! :eek:

So, just pick a day, and always keep it as a Sabbath. I'm sure God has forgiven bigger sins than mistaking which day of the week is #7.

.

You think we have problems with the Gregorian calender now wait until the papacy pushes this on us.
I'm quoting the following...


The attached article regarding Pope Benedict and the new "Benedictine World Calendar" is of paramount importance, because it is an identical repeat of what happened 1938. This Benedictine Calendar that is being proposed in <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Australia</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> is simply called "The World Calendar" in the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>U.S.</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>, at this time. Our current Gregorian calendar is named after Pope Gregory; likewise the new "World calendar" would be named after Pope Benedict. It has been said “the power that controls the money controls the people”, but the same can be said that The power that controls the calendar controls the world.
<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
Web page link---> (See www.theworldcalendar.org (http://www.theworldcalendar.org/) for details.) <--- web page link

In the description of The World Calendar, an extra day each year is spoken of. This extra day stands alone and is not placed on a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc., but is placed between the last day (Saturday) of each year and the first day (Sunday) of the following year. This will have a direct impact on all who hold a Saturday or a Sunday to be an ordained holy Sabbath day. The first whole year that The World Calendar is in place nothing will be different. However, in the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> year, what in previous years had been Saturday followed by Sunday will now be Friday followed by Saturday on this new calendar. The next year what was once a Saturday Sabbath is now on Thursday, then the next year it is Wednesday, then the next Tuesday. Then there is a skip because a leap year day is inserted every four days following the last day of June. Now what was once the Saturday seventh-day Sabbath is on Sunday. This will create utter chaos within all churches as they struggle over when to hold church. The church members will struggle with how to attend because of their jobs and school.

I don't see an attached article.

I would also like to point out that when we went from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar a ten day adjustment was made. So, what did that do to the Saturday Sabbath?

Monty just don't have time to refer to all the scripture but I am definately not ignoring them the difference is I see them as backing the 7th day Sabbath not first day Sabbath.

I guess you can call me a floater I go here and there looking for answers and now thanks to this thread I have found the 7th Day Adventists I am going to definately check them out it looks to me that they are onto something.

Any church orginization that takes its answers only from the bible and doesn't follow mans traditions that we are warned in the bible to look out for and avoid is a place that I want to check out.

Once again thanks for all the input.

308 that adjustment was looked into I can't remember where I saw the info in regards to this though.

Guys I don't have all the answers which is why I am asking this question...

I will try and share what I hae learnt but I am not a master by any means more like a grasshopper... :D

The thing is that I am not blindly following traditions I want/need to see biblecal facts and not just one verse I need to see several verses that back each other up to prove anything from the bible.

Here is an example, from what I have now been reading about the 7th Day Adventists they evolved from the Baptist church and it's traditions due to searching the scriptures and seeing that there was more going on that we could learn from God's word.

I just bought a book written by Ellen G White called the "Great Controversy" she was one of the founding leaders of the 7thDA's I am only into the first chapter so far but "WOW" is it interesting.

Monty just don't have time to refer to all the scripture but I am definately not ignoring them the difference is I see them as backing the 7th day Sabbath not first day Sabbath.

I guess you can call me a floater I go here and there looking for answers and now thanks to this thread I have found the 7th Day Adventists I am going to definately check them out it looks to me that they are onto something.

Any church orginization that takes its answers only from the bible and doesn't follow mans traditions that we are warned in the bible to look out for and avoid is a place that I want to check out.

Once again thanks for all the input.

Moki, I'm encouraged by your desire to follow what the Bible instucts us to do. And it's obvious you don't easily give up without finding the answer you're looking for.

Concerning the law and commandments consider 2 Corinthians 3, the whole chapter is worth studing, but here are the highlights:

We are living epistles of Christ from God, V 1-3.

Our sufficiency is from God and we are ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but the Spirit. V 5&6a

The letter (law and commandments) kills, but the Spirit gives life. V 6

The law is called:
A) The ministry of death written on stones. V7
B) The ministry of condemnation. V9
C) What is passing away. V11

Concerning those that adhere to the law and commandments:

V14 But their minds were blinded. For unto this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ

V15 But even to this day when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

V16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

As believers we are to follow instuctions as presented in the Bible. There are two ways New Testament Christians receive instruction; the first is by direct command and the second is by inferred example. Observing the Lords day is by inferred example.

Here's the problem, Moki. If you're hoping to keep the commandments, you've lost. That's why we need Jesus. We've kept not ONE. Listen to some good teaching on this and you'll realize that you, too, have broken every one. So the challenge in the Revelation quote is not that WE keep them, but it's that we are in Jesus, and He did.

The commandment about keeping the sabbath never says on which day of the week it should be kept except to say it follows six days of work. In fact, I can't recall anywhere in the bible where God established anything called a "week" or defined how many days are in it or which day is the first or the last. It never mentions anything about matching the sabbath command up with a calendar. It just says work six days and observe sabbath rest on the seventh. The commandments in Leviticus and Deuteronomy go to great lengths to expand on and explain each of the ten commandments. Yet even there God never says anything about how to decide if the sabbath falls on the "first" day or the "last" day, or any day in between. He just says that the sabbath comes after the six days of work. Period. Why make it any more complicated than that? I think that those who worship on Sunday are observing this command exactly. They work six days and then rest on the seventh.

And what about the sabbath year? The Hebrews, as part of the ceremonial law, were to set the seventh year apart as a sabbath year. Six normal years followed by the sabbath year where fields were to lie fallow, indentured servants were freed, and loans were closed. But nowhere did God say how to count or when to start counting the years or what number to call the sabbath year. He only said that the sabbath year followed six normal years.

It seems to me that trying to match up the 4th commandment with a man-made calendar is exactly the thing the 7th Day Adventists are warning us to avoid - that is adding the traditions of man to God's Word. God did not say that Saturday was the last day of the week; mankind came up with that tradition all on its own. So, wouldn't insisting that we must hold Saturday as the sabbath be adding a man-made tradition onto what God said? Sure seems like it to me.

"WOW" I need to respond to this but don't know how...

I will definately study on this and come back with what I found.

Kart seeing as you mentioned the 7th Day Adventists I went to them for an answer here is what I found so far.

CC

http://www.amazingfacts.org/Radio/BibleAnswersLiveQuestionArchive/tabid/212/ctl/PlayMedia/mid/731/7/How-do-we-know-from-the-Bible-which-day-of-the-week-is-the-Sabbath/PID/1243/SID/13/SQT/1000/TPE/T/Default.aspx

Bible Answers Live Question Archive
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=lft-content><TABLE cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=5 width=775 align=center><TBODY><TR><TD class=fieldHdr1 style="BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1px solid" colSpan=2>How do we know from the Bible which day of the week is the Sabbath? </TD></TR><TR id=dnn_ctr731_PlayMedia_trDesc><TD class=content1 colSpan=2>
Caller: I have a question on the Sabbath.

Pastor Doug:All right.

Caller: Where in the Bible would it say that either Saturday or Sunday would be the Sabbath? Where’s the information?

Pastor Doug:Well first of all, you’re not going to find the term Saturday or Sunday anywhere in the Bible because the Bible never names the days. They’re all numbered.

Now we could do some very basic investigation to find out what those days were by our standards now. We’re using Roman names for the days of the week.

Caller: Ok.

Pastor Doug:Sunday was the day of the sun. Monday was the day of the moon, so forth. Saturday was Saturn. But in the Bible, they had a seven-day week in Rome that matched up with the seven-day weeks of the Jews. Matter of fact, the whole world acknowledges the seven-day week, which I think is a very strong argument for the Bible, because there’s nothing in astronomy that gives us the seven-day week. It only can be traced to the Creation Week of Scripture.

Caller: Ok.

Pastor Doug:But in the Bible it tells us that the day that Jesus was crucified was the Preparation Day. Today the Jews call Friday their Preparation Day. We know that Jesus rested in the Tomb on the seventh day, which is what we commonly call Saturday; and He rose on what we call Easter Sunday, or, the first day of the week.

You can look in a dictionary or in an encyclopedia, and it all tells you what the days of the week are. The first day is called Sunday, the seventh day is called Saturday; and the Bible says in the Ten Commandments that He blessed the seventh day and commanded us to keep it holy.

So I take that position. I’m a straight shooter when it comes to the Bible. I go by what it says.

Caller: Ok.

Pastor Doug:Did that make sense?

Caller: Yes it answered my question.

Pastor Doug:Ok. Let me give you one more little tidbit of information. There are archeologists that match up main dates in history that can be confirmed using astronomy.

Co-Host: Yes.

Pastor Doug:And they have found out that no changes in the calendar have affected the weekly cycle. So we know that going way back before the Christian era that the same cycle of seven days they enjoyed back then is the same cycle of seven days we use today. The changes in the calendar have not altered that at all.

Caller: Ok. God bless. Good-bye.

Pastor Doug:All right. Thanks a lot. God bless you.

Amazing Facts’ Resource Number: 1-800-835-6747

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Here's the problem, Moki. If you're hoping to keep the commandments, you've lost. That's why we need Jesus. We've kept not ONE. Listen to some good teaching on this and you'll realize that you, too, have broken every one. So the challenge in the Revelation quote is not that WE keep them, but it's that we are in Jesus, and He did.


Never meant to say or imply I was constantly keeping them what I was trying to say was that I was trying to keep God's Commandments and that I want to stay away from man's traditions and follow God's law instead.

Monty I'm checking into what you wrote.

I have continued exploring the Amazing Facts web site here is another link I found.


http://www.amazingfacts.org/Radio/BibleAnswersLiveQuestionArchive/tabid/212/ctl/PlayMedia/mid/731/7/Will-I-be-saved-if-I-dont-keep-the-Sabbath/PID/1359/SID/13/SQT/1000/TPE/T/Default.aspx

<TABLE cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=5 width=775 align=center><TBODY><TR><TD class=fieldHdr1 style="BORDER-BOTTOM: black 1px solid" colSpan=2>Will I be saved if I don't keep the Sabbath? </TD></TR><TR id=dnn_ctr731_PlayMedia_trDesc><TD class=content1 colSpan=2>
Caller: Ok my question is this. I’ve been practicing the Christian Sunday. And recently, it has been brought to my attention that God never told us to stop honoring the commandment, even though we are saved by grace. And I’ve heard you speak about the Sabbath. I read in Ephesians where Paul mentions honoring our mother and the father, so he’s still talking to Christians after a whole discourse about grace, keeping the commandments, the fourth commandment being the Sabbath.

Pastor Doug: Right.

Caller: I need clarity on this. I’m getting messages from both sides. I would like to know what your thoughts are about the Sabbath, and whether I can still be saved if I don’t practice it.

Pastor Doug: Well that’s a good question. Those who listen to this program know we try to be consistent; and while we are saved by grace, we don’t find anything in the Bible that says that the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect. That would be absurd when you really think about what that means. And the only commandment that begins with the word “Remember” is the fourth, or the Sabbath commandment.
So we take the position that the Sabbath is still part of God’s will. We still do need that day of rest and worship. And the day the God blessed is the seventh day. He’s never changed it anywhere in the Bible that I’ve ever seen to another day. So, then you’re asking me what will happen to you, and I know there are going to be many, many people in Heaven who maybe did not keep some of the commandments because they did it in ignorance. The Bible says God winks at our ignorance in Acts chapter 17.
But what determines what sin is in Hebrews chapter 10 verse 26, it says, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” (KJV) So once we know God’s will, if we persist to rebel, that’s different than if we’re doing something wrong and we don’t know. See what I’m saying Russ?

Caller: Yes, but so many people have told me that in Galatians it gives clarity – don’t let a man judge you according to the Sabbath and new moon and such and so. I’m looking for a way –

Pastor Doug: All right, pardon me, but actually you’re quoting Colossians, but you’re right. Galatians talks about don’t let people put you under the law, and I still believe that. And of course, Galatians is dealing largely with the ceremonial laws, but nobody is saved by the law.
We don’t keep the law to be saved. We want to keep God’s commandments because we are saved. You understand that difference?

Caller: Yes.

Pastor Doug: You know Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep my commandments.”

Caller: Yes.

Pastor Doug: And of course, if all things made were made by Christ, then He also is Author of the Ten Commandments. So I believe that it’s right in there with the other nine and it’s as important.
Whatever you want to do with the commandments about adultery, don’t murder or don’t use God’s name in vain, take the same force and put it on the fourth commandment. And I just think we should be consistent, don’t you?

Caller: Yes I do and having broken some commandments in my life, I know that the Lord has forgiven me for them, but I don’t practice them or preach them to be right. Is that correct in believing, of course, that you can still be forgiven for breaking them?

Pastor Doug: Yes of course you can, but you don’t want to sin deliberately and then say, ‘I’m going to break it and just ask forgiveness.’ That’s, I think, is a very risky thing to do and ties in with the danger of grieving away the Holy Spirit.


Amazing Facts’ Resource Number: 800-835-6747



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Maybe this helps:

The following "Question" was asked of John MacArthur Jr., the pastor of Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, California. Copyright 2001 by John MacArthur Jr., All Rights Reserved.

Question

Are the Sabbath laws binding on Christians today?

Answer

We believe the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view.


In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.

The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.

In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.

There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.

The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.

In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).

In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).

Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).
So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath."

John Calvin took a similar position. He wrote,

There were three reasons for giving this [fourth] commandment: First, with the seventh day of rest the Lord wished to give to the people of Israel an image of spiritual rest, whereby believers must cease from their own works in order to let the Lord work in them. Secondly, he wished that there be an established day in which believers might assemble in order to hear his Law and worship him. Thirdly, he willed that one day of rest be granted to servants and to those who live under the power of others so that they might have a relaxation from their labor. The latter, however, is rather an inferred than a principal reason.

As to the first reason, there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned. Hence St. Paul (Col. 2:17) affirms that the sabbath has been a shadow of a reality yet to be. And he declares else-where its truth when in the letter to the Romans, ch. 6:8, he teaches us that we are buried with Christ in order that by his death we may die to the corruption of our flesh. And this is not done in one day, but during all the course of our life, until altogether dead in our own selves, we may be filled with the life of God. Hence, superstitious observance of days must remain far from Christians.

The two last reasons, however, must not be numbered among the shadows of old. Rather, they are equally valid for all ages. Hence, though the sabbath is abrogated, it so happens among us that we still convene on certain days in order to hear the word of God, to break the [mystic] bread of the Supper, and to offer public prayers; and, moreover, in order that some relaxation from their toil be given to servants and workingmen. As our human weakness does not allow such assemblies to meet every day, the day observed by the Jews has been taken away (as a good device for eliminating superstition) and another day has been destined to this use. This was necessary for securing and maintaining order and peace in the Church.

As the truth therefore was given to the Jews under a figure, so to us on the contrary truth is shown without shadows in order, first of all, that we meditate all our life on a perpetual sabbath from our works so that the Lord may operate in us by his spirit; secondly, in order that we observe the legitimate order of the Church for listening to the word of God, for admin-istering the sacraments, and for public prayers; thirdly, in order that we do not oppress inhumanly with work those who are subject to us. [From Instruction in Faith, Calvin's own 1537 digest of the Institutes, sec. 8, "The Law of the Lord"].


For further study:
D. A. Carson, ed., From Sabbath to Lord's Day (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982).

I'm reviewing what you posted but will comment now on your signature picture if you don't mind...

Very nice I parted ways with my Sako V Hunter 375H&H and replaced it with Rem 700 LSS in 375RUM just didn't get the performance levels that I was looking for from Mr Holland... :D

Took a trophy interior mountain grizzly with my 375RUM June 1 2008...

I'm reviewing what you posted but will comment now on your signature picture if you don't mind...

Very nice I parted ways with my Sako V Hunter 375H&H and replaced it with Rem 700 LSS in 375RUM just didn't get the performance levels that I was looking for from Mr Holland... :D

Took a trophy interior mountain grizzly with my 375RUM June 1 2008...

Hey congrats on the bear!! Hope he's a nice safe rug somewhere on your premises. :cool:

Sorry for detouring the thread guys...

T-Bone I won't have the rug for another 10 months or so.

Here is a picture of me with it, I'm holding my Marlin 1895GS 45-70 loaded with 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers in the pic because I switched rifles when I went into the thick bush after it.

It is 8' nose to tail weighs about 1000lbs and would weigh about 1200lbs by the end of fall and it would stand about 11 1/2' tall...


http://www.hunt101.com/data/506/medium/Ice_Cream_with_Jaiden_Grizzly_Bear_Pic_s_June_2_20 08_047.jpg


Ok back to our regular scheduled program... :o

Sweet! Great trophy!

I am Jealous. Oh, wait a minute, Jealousy comes from covetousness which is a sin. Forgive me Lord!

It was an experience of a lifetime I had my 23 year old son with me and it was the first grizzly he had ever seen.

The skull green measured at 23.81" the all time B&C record book starts @ 24" so it will only be in the B&C awards book.

When you consider that this is a smaller interior grizzly and that the B&C class all coastal/kodiak/interior bears are together this is a really big bear and no this wasn't a guided hunt... :)

That sounds like a dream hunt for sure! What a trophy!

I thought it was Alaska state law that non-residents have a licensed guide to hunt grizzly bears. Maybe that's something new. Or maybe you were a resident then.

I am quite sure that British Columbia has a resident grizz tag. I was up near Smithers BC when I was visiting family and we saw a number of grizzs over the month we were there. I got to spend time with my cousins on a lake called Babine their cabin was 8 or 10 miles from the main dock and there were no road anywhere back then.
You could watch the char bite your hook and when we got back to their house near Smithers we could fish for steel head on Buckley River which was just a couple of hundred yards from their house. One of the prettiest places I have ever been in my life.

Sunday has never been known as the Sabbath in the orthodox (mainstream) Christian sects. The word, Sabbath is an Anglicization of the Hebrew word that means, "holy" or "sacred". Sunday has always been referred to as "The Lord's Day", instead. That's because the physical resurrection of Jesus was supposed to have occured on Sunday. I recall a book by a Presbyterian "Teaching Elder" which was entitled, "Every Sunday an Easter" for that reason.

Of course, when the Pagan Roman civil administration took over the Church in the Fifth Century, they substituted their own rituals for those of the Church and changed the names to conform to Christian terminology. So the day that had been sacred to Apollo became sacred to Jesus.

A related issue is the importance of Christmas and Easter in modern ritual observance. These are well-known as pre-existing holidays important to the Romans. But the usual line is that the holidays were converted from Pagan practice to Christian practice, when the reality is just the opposite. Why should those holidays be important to Christians today? Jesus didn't come preaching the good news of the coming of the Kingdom of Jesus, his mission was to reconcile us to God. And he did that on the cross; it's Good Friday that's important, not Easter. Assuming a physical resurrection did occur (that's not important to me, particularly, since I don't expect to continue my existence in this realm of limited time/space dimensionality) it was only a sort of seal of approval on what had already been done.

As to continued observance of the Hebrew law: most folks think in binary - something's either on or its off. But this issue isn't like that. The fact is, the law was made for man, not man for the law; the law was designed as an instructive device to teach us. But, while ritualistic adherance to law won't get you salvation, and all things are permitted, not all things are edifying. Jesus didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfil the law. Not one element of the law will pass away as long as this time/space realm endures. So eating pork and shrimp won't keep you out of heaven, but is it wise to eat that which God has advised us not to eat?

Remember that the essence of sin is, "eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." In other words, if you do something because you like it, regardless of whether it's wise, or avoid doing that which you don't like, regardless of whether it's wise, that's sin. For example, it's not wise to bash your head into a concrete wall. That's sin. How do you know? It hurts. Sin is not a list of things that offend God, it's a list of things that hurt us and keep us from the knowledge and love of God. The "fruit of the tree" is the product, or consequence. The "knowledge of good and evil" means, knowing what you like and what you don't like. A sinful person is like a child who says, "I wanna!", or "I do'wanna!".

If you're trapped in a world defined by your own desires, you're a captive to sin. Jesus came to free us from that. It doesn't mean you have to become a slave to the Hebrew law; or any law. But it means you have to live responsibly, with intellectual honesty, and love.

User,
Welcome and enjoyed reading your contribution. Thanks!
Greg

User, welcome to the forum. You brought up some interesting points.

First off, days were not called by the names we know them today. I'd be hard pressed to find any day of the week listed by name in either the Old or New Testaments. Days were identified either by it's number, for example the 14th day of the first month or in this example known as passover. Other examples are the 7th day or Sabbath, 1st day or the Lord's day.

Celebrating Easter and Christmas is never taught in the New Testament. There is no mention of either except for Easter, as mentioned in Acts 12:4, is a pagan holiday. The term Easter is not of Christian origin, it's another form of Astarte, one of the titles of a Chaldean goddess. An interesting item, the apostle John never mentioned Jesus' birth in his gospel. However he devoted 8 chapters dealing with the time between his last night on earth to the resurrection. As Christians we remember Christ's death when taking the Lord's Supper.

The resurrection DID occur. It's one of the most documented items of Jesus' life. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:5-7

V5, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
V6, After that He was seen by over 500 brethern at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep (died).
V7, After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

Paul also deals with the resurrection of Christ in 1Cor 15:12-19. He says if there is no resurrection:

A) then Christ is not risen V13,
B) our preaching is empty, and your faith is empty V14,
C) we are false witnesses of God V15,
D) you are still in your sins V17,
E) those that have died in Christ have perished V18,
F) then we above all men are most pitiable V19.

To me it is VERY important that Christ defeated death and sits at the right hand of God.

Sin isn't presented to humans as ugly but rather something appealing and attractive. Where would be the desire to sin if the consquences were shown instead of the pleasure for a season? You wouldn't have to be too smart to realize the results of slamming your head into a brick wall. The lure of riches, fame, power and sexual inmorality is more than most can resist. It can be compared to slamming your spiritual head into a brick wall. Continuing in sin will lead to a certain spiritual death and eternal seperation from God.

Since the time of Jesus and the Old Testament times there have been calendar changes. The calendar we use today is not the same as that of the 1st century AD. I knew at one time what the changes were but have forgotten them, but what if our Sunday was actually a Wednesday by the calendar of Jesus’ time. Is it less “Holy” because it is not the same day that Jesus knew as Sunday?

I think the point is that we are to set aside one day a week that is the Lord’s Day. It was to be a day of rest and reflection on the Lord. God Himself “rested” on the 7th day. If it is a sin to work on the Lord’s Day, how can we go out to eat after church or to Wal-Mart to buy whatever causing other people to work to serve us? I have known preachers who spoke against any kind of labor on Sunday but would go out to eat following church or evening services. Go figure!!!

Sunday Sabbath Worship Why ???
...
In my studies I have found that it was Emperor Constantine of Rome in 321AD that introduce the first Sunday worship laws these laws did exempt the farm/agriculture workers.

He supposedly did this to appease the Sunday Sun worshipers ....

I'd put it a little differently. The Romans were already familiar with a system of calling "the gods" by different names, e.g., "Mercury" is the same as "Hermes"; the same Indo-European pagan traditions existed throughout the area, since the Romans, the Greeks, and the Persians, for example, were all Indo-European invaders. The Romans when they took over the Christian "church", which to them meant the hierarchical organizational structure, since they actually knew nothing of the reality of the risen Christ and His Church, for political reasons. When they did, they simply renamed their own Pagan mythopoeic system to fit Christian terminology. Sunday is the day of worship to them, as "the Lord's day" because Apollo is "the lord" as far as they're concerned. They didn't care whether you called him the Sun God or the Son God, it's all the same thing to them, because they didn't understand the underlying substance of Christianity.

It is my view that they still don't.

...I understand that many believe that the 10 Commandments were done away with when Jesus was crucified but from my studies I now see that it was Mose's Mosaic laws that were done away with not the 10 Commandments....

Yes I also understand that I am a human and thus can't be sinless but I can try to the best of my abilities.
....


Jesus didn't abolish anything. He made it a point of saying so on several occasions that we have recorded. What he did do is to put the rules in context, and Paul amplified that point considerably. I use the toilet seat cover analogy: those tissue toilet seat covers they put in commercial office buildings always say, "Placed by the Management for your Convenience and Protection". That's how I'd summarize the law. Similarly, when my kids were little, I had a rule, "Always hold the handrail when you're on the stairs, whether you're moving or not, so that when you fall (notice I didn't say, 'if'?) you can catch yourself and not get so badly hurt." I wasn't personally offended if a kid didn't hold the handrail, my reason for telling them was so they wouldn't get hurt. God isn't offended if you violate his rules, he put them there so you'd learn not to hurt yourself and others. If you're living in obediance to Commandments One and Two (do love) all the time, then none of the other rules really apply. God isn't Santa Clause, "gonna find out who's naughty and nice". It's a good idea to follow the rules as much as possible to avoid getting hurt or hurting others; but when you live outside the law of love, you distance yourself from God, who's otherwise present and available for everyone all the time.

So in my estimation, the Christmas and Easter things are just warmed over Pagan rituals made important by the Romans when they took over what they thought was the organizational machinery of "the church"; neither of them has any real importance. What is important is Good Friday, when Jesus gave us his prophetic demonstration of God's unconditional love for us. Because of our sinful nature, we tortured and killed him, but his response was unfailing love. And he actually said that's why he was doing it, because he incorporated Psalm 22 by reference to the first line of the Psalm, "My God, My God, Oh, why have you forsaken me?" (works were known by their first lines, as they hadn't yet invented "titles"). In doing so, he showed us the path to get connected with God. It's not about shame, fear, or guilt, it's about love.

Dear user,

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers

I have provided the above link to an online translation of the earliest Christian writings. There exists in the linked site a large body of writings from the period before Constantine, a period when Christians were undergoing horrific persecutions by "Rome".


I'd put it a little differently. The Romans were already familiar with a system of calling "the gods" by different names, e.g., "Mercury" is the same as "Hermes"; the same Indo-European pagan traditions existed throughout the area, since the Romans, the Greeks, and the Persians, for example, were all Indo-European invaders. The Romans when they took over the Christian "church", which to them meant the hierarchical organizational structure, since they actually knew nothing of the reality of the risen Christ and His Church, for political reasons. When they did, they simply renamed their own Pagan mythopoeic system to fit Christian terminology. Sunday is the day of worship to them, as "the Lord's day" because Apollo is "the lord" as far as they're concerned. They didn't care whether you called him the Sun God or the Son God, it's all the same thing to them, because they didn't understand the underlying substance of Christianity.

It is my view that they still don't.


I invite you to read these documents that you may see how your views expressed in the above quote could not be farther from the truth. "Rome" did not force itself on Christianity, instead, the truths in the Christian faith won over "Rome". Just as Christ said they would.

Jesus didn't abolish anything. He made it a point of saying so on several occasions that we have recorded. What he did do is to put the rules in context, and Paul amplified that point considerably. I use the toilet seat cover analogy: those tissue toilet seat covers they put in commercial office buildings always say, "Placed by the Management for your Convenience and Protection". That's how I'd summarize the law. Similarly, when my kids were little, I had a rule, "Always hold the handrail when you're on the stairs, whether you're moving or not, so that when you fall (notice I didn't say, 'if'?) you can catch yourself and not get so badly hurt." I wasn't personally offended if a kid didn't hold the handrail, my reason for telling them was so they wouldn't get hurt. God isn't offended if you violate his rules, he put them there so you'd learn not to hurt yourself and others. If you're living in obediance to Commandments One and Two (do love) all the time, then none of the other rules really apply. God isn't Santa Clause, "gonna find out who's naughty and nice". It's a good idea to follow the rules as much as possible to avoid getting hurt or hurting others; but when you live outside the law of love, you distance yourself from God, who's otherwise present and available for everyone all the time.

I would like to refer to the above quote, particularly the bolded part. Are saying that there is no final judgement?

From the beginning until now the only thing God expects is obedience. Throughout the Bible we can glean examples of those who God was pleased with and also those who reaped what they had sown.

Just one example, Moses in the wilderness was instructed to speak to the rock to receive water (Numbers 20:8). Although God still provided the water after Moses struck the rock twice, Moses was denied entry to the promised land. This was because he believed not (disobeyed) God and didn't sanctify Him before the children of Israel (Numbers 20:12).

Now drawing the same thread to us, does anyone think they can disobey God and still enter their promised land?

The truths of the Bible aren't suggestions, they are commands.

In other words, God does care who's naughty and nice

Hello Moki. It has been used as an argument that there is a new covenant, & that new covenant abolishes keeping the Sabbath. Don't you find it strange that in the new covenant it abolishes the Sabbath? The old covenant was the Hebrews , after hearing the Moral Law spoken on Sinai, saying THEY will keep all that He has stated. Well, we can see how that turned out. It is written,"The carnal mind is enmity against the law of God, neither can it be subject to the law". Jeremiah 31:31-33 states the new covenant as reiterated in Hebrews 8:10. Because we are carnal & the law is Spiritual, we are to become Spiritual. How? Through our Savior by the power of the Spirit. He writes the WHOLE, not 8 or 9, law on our hearts. We can then say with Paul,"I am crucified with Messiah & live, yet not I but Messiah who lives in me". Our Savior is our righteuosness. He, in us, keeps the law. It is written,"Anyone who teaches you to break the least of the commandments, is called by those in heaven the least"."For whosoever shall keep the whole law, & yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all". James 2:10. That means the fourth commandment. Read 1 John 2:2-4;3:4,22-24;5:2,3;Rev. 12:17;14:12;22:14. What is the whole duty, out of love for our Creator, of man?"Fear God & keep His commandments: for this is the WHOLE DUTY of man". Eccl.12:13. Just a thought. Since Lucifer wanted & still wants to be like the Most High, it stands to reason he would want to have people to forget Who the Creator is & Who is worthy of our worship. Hence, get rid of the ONLY commandment that says,"REMEMBER", & says Whom to worship, the fourth commandment. Please Google, Romes Challenge: Why do Protestants Keep Sunday. That is one of the best Scriptural arguments by the Catholic Church who boasts she changed the Sabbath, for which she claims there is no scriptural authority, to Sunday, I have read. All the 1st day Scriptures, breaking bread, Lords Day, etc... are dealt with by the RCC who changed the Sabbath to Sunday. She goes as far to say to Protestants that they pay homage to her, not God, by keeping Sunday as the Sabbath. Strong words indeed."As for me & my house, we will follow the Almighty". May the Eternal Spirit guide you into all Truth as it is in our Savior, Creator, sin pardoning Redeemer, Lord of the Sabbath, Friend, Brother, True Lover of our souls, High Priest. Your brother in our Savior.

From the beginning until now the only thing God expects is obedience. Throughout the Bible we can glean examples of those who God was pleased with and also those who reaped what they had sown.

Just one example, Moses in the wilderness was instructed to speak to the rock to receive water (Numbers 20:8). Although God still provided the water after Moses struck the rock twice, Moses was denied entry to the promised land. This was because he believed not (disobeyed) God and didn't sanctify Him before the children of Israel (Numbers 20:12).

Now drawing the same thread to us, does anyone think they can disobey God and still enter their promised land?

The truths of the Bible aren't suggestions, they are commands.

What is meant by keeping the Sabbath? Do you mean doing no work, not walking, not preparing meals, etc. Isn't keeping the Sabbath taking a day to worship and devote the day and thought to our Creator God?

I think the fact that the Lord Jesus healed the sick and the disciples went into the fields to get grain to make food is a clear indication that the highly ritualistic form of the Sabbath is not the Sabbath God had in mind. Sabbath (or Sabbath rest) refers to rest from labors to take time to reflect on our Lord God. For other examples, look at how many foods were restricted in the Old Testament (OT), yet they were declared holy by God in the NT. Do we still sacrifice animals as they did in the OT? There is clearly a new covenant working.

Does the Sabbath have to be the 7th day, rather than the Lord's day? With regards to which day to worhip, Are there any NT references to Saturday worship among the Christians?

I think insisting that we have services on Saturday rather than Sunday (and invoking eternal punishment) fall perilously close to Judaizing, or even Phariseeism. Is that what some of are suggesting?

In other words, God does care who's naughty and nice


What I said before, was, "Because of our sinful nature, we tortured and killed him, but his response was unfailing love." And that Jesus' expression of love was a tangible demonstration of God's unconditional, infinte, and absolute love, compassion, and mercy for us. I believe that God does care, because he wants what's best for us. And that our response should mirror that love.

Is there a "final judgment"? Sure. And most folks won't survive the transition. Jesus called that the "second death". But that's not based on tallying up bonus points and demerits. It's based on the quality of one's spiritual nature, as he has developed his spiritual nature over the time he's had in this phase of existence.

Is God keeping track of "who's naughty or nice"? Paul said that God had nailed the book of the record of our sin to the cross. Colossians 2:14. The question is not whether one is "naughty or nice" but whether one has been spiritually transformed from the old self-important arrogant person he was to the new man in Christ. The conversion that is required is not a joining-up ritual, but a transformation, borne of the realization that God is in charge of His universe, and I'm an element of God's universe, and not the other way around.

The manufactured history of organizations and participation in rule based systems of social control have absolutely no relationship, in my opinion, with the new life in Christ. Jesus came to free us from the strictures of shame, fear, and guilt, so that we could be free to have a new life in God's love. And Jesus said we'd be able to identify the real Christians: they're the ones who are doing love.

Is there a "final judgment"? Sure. And most folks won't survive the transition. Jesus called that the "second death". But that's not based on tallying up bonus points and demerits. It's based on the quality of one's spiritual nature, as he has developed his spiritual nature over the time he's had in this phase of existence.

Actually, all mankind deserves eternal punishment ("there are none righteous, no not one"), and there is nothing we can do to remedy the situation ("all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags"). Our transformation is entirely external, and it will be perfected when we meet Jesus...

“29 ¶ For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;” (Ro 8:29 NAS95)

What the Holy Spirit starts, he will finish completely. When we see Jesus, we will be like Him (perfect sanctification!).

Is God keeping track of "who's naughty or nice"? Paul said that God had nailed the book of the record of our sin to the cross. Colossians 2:14. The question is not whether one is "naughty or nice" but whether one has been spiritually transformed from the old self-important arrogant person he was to the new man in Christ. The conversion that is required is not a joining-up ritual, but a transformation, borne of the realization that God is in charge of His universe, and I'm an element of God's universe, and not the other way around.

Actually the transformation is born when God awakens us to the Truth. We are blind to it until God shines the light of Truth in our hearts, like the light of creation. Only then will the process of transformation begin and it will be finished by the Holy Spirit. (See above)

“4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.” (2Co 4:4-6 NAS95)

Does God remember who does evil? Consider this: “"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’” (Mt 7:23 NAS95)

Note: 'practice lawlessness', that is those who have not been transformed by the rebirth, and who continue to sin as a part of their normal practice. We cannot hope to repent without God's intervention. (2 Cor 7:9)

The manufactured history of organizations and participation in rule based systems of social control have absolutely no relationship, in my opinion, with the new life in Christ. Jesus came to free us from the strictures of shame, fear, and guilt, so that we could be free to have a new life in God's love. And Jesus said we'd be able to identify the real Christians: they're the ones who are doing love.

I can understand why you are wary of church organizations, since there are so many that get it wrong, but that is no reason to assume that they all are bad. We must worship in spirit and in truth. How will we edify other belivers and fellowship with them if we do not congregate together? Jesus does indeed free us from our sin, but only if we mourn over our sin first, and give it up. Can we give up sin perfectly? If Paul is any example, certainly not. He lamented “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?” (Ro 7:24 NAS95). Guilt for actual sin is the function of a working conscience. We should confess our sin to keep it clear (1 John 1:9), and obey the teachings of Jesus to show our love to Him (John 14:21). That is "abiding in Christ" and we we refer to as the Christian "walk".

I hope this helps.

As a Sunday School teacher, trying to get folks to understand the mulitpule facets of God's Sabbath, Sat or Sun, is a favorite subject but too hard to condense into a short web post. A few thoughts should help tho.

First, understand that all Godly Holy days are Sabbaths, incuding - for Christians - Christmas and Easter, with many more for Jews. Thus, a special day of religious observance is not limited to the seventh consecutive day on anyone's calendar. Our calendar is Roman, not Jewish. No one seems to have kept a calender from the expulsion from the Garden until long after the exodus from Egypt - and there was absolutely no reason to do so until after God spoke to Moses on the Mountain - so NO ONE but God himself knows when the original 7th day was and He didn't tell us.

Jesus did state that the Sabath was made for man, not man for the Sabath. I believe that means we need only observe a day of each week to contemplate God and what He has done, because to Him all days are the same.

At its core, Sabbath means a "sit down", or rest from movement. God does not get tired like us so his rest, as we see it, wasn't the point. It simply means that He came to a stop, or sat at rest, in the same sense of an auto stopped at a traffic light, when His creation was completed. WE do need a day of physical and spiritual rest, HE does not! He wants us to get our day of rest, it's not for Him.

NT Scripture clearly says that each of us are free to observe Sabbath on the day that seems right to us, we need not feel bound by the beliefs of others. BUT, we are bound by our own conscience. If we feel Sat. is the right day and disregard it, we are sinning in our own hearts.

The first Christians were - surprise! - devote Jews who attended Synagogs on their Saturday Sabbaths, from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Next day, they met in house churches, on Sunday evenings, to study the scriptures in a new light that couldn't be done peacefully in the synagogs. They also participated in the Table of the Lord at that time so, in that sense, the Church met on Sunday long before anyone made worship on the "Lord's Day" a point of theology. In fact, it appears that the concept of worship on the Lord's Day was no more than an effort by the clergy to justify, after the fact, what they were already doing.

Man tends to fall into habits of convience pretty easy. It doesn't take us long to make a tradition of our practice and it doesn't take a lot longer for that traditon to become santified in our own minds and then teach that's the way God wants things done! This is the most glaring error of Roman Catholism, they have made their church traditions equal to scripure and that's wrong.

You - we - may worship on the "Sabbath" day that seems right, or possible, to YOU and you will meet God's requirement, but only if you do it without condemning others who hold a different view. Otherwise, it's becomes a self-righteous legalism and Paul wrote a whole book to the Galatians suggesting that such legalism is not a good thing.

Rest, in the peace of God.

What is meant by keeping the Sabbath? Do you mean doing no work, not walking, not preparing meals, etc. Isn't keeping the Sabbath taking a day to worship and devote the day and thought to our Creator God?

I think the fact that the Lord Jesus healed the sick and the disciples went into the fields to get grain to make food is a clear indication that the highly ritualistic form of the Sabbath is not the Sabbath God had in mind. Sabbath (or Sabbath rest) refers to rest from labors to take time to reflect on our Lord God. For other examples, look at how many foods were restricted in the Old Testament (OT), yet they were declared holy by God in the NT. Do we still sacrifice animals as they did in the OT? There is clearly a new covenant working.

Does the Sabbath have to be the 7th day, rather than the Lord's day? With regards to which day to worhip, Are there any NT references to Saturday worship among the Christians?

I think insisting that we have services on Saturday rather than Sunday (and invoking eternal punishment) fall perilously close to Judaizing, or even Phariseeism. Is that what some of are suggesting?

Mr. T-bone I believe you misunderstand what I'm saying. Throughout this thread I've argued New Testament Christians aren't commanded to keep the Sabbath (see post #10)

Please check out the posts I've made to follow the line of thought. Post #'s 27, 33, 40, 57 along with the most recent which you've answered today.

Post #61 was in answer to User's statement in Post # 59, "God isn't offended if you violate his rules". Guess I should have used that quote to headline my post.

....... We must worship in spirit and in truth. How will we edify other belivers and fellowship with them if we do not congregate together? Jesus does indeed free us from our sin, but only if we mourn over our sin first, and give it up. Can we give up sin perfectly? If Paul is any example, certainly not. He lamented “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?” (Ro 7:24 NAS95). Guilt for actual sin is the function of a working conscience. We should confess our sin to keep it clear (1 John 1:9), and obey the teachings of Jesus to show our love to Him (John 14:21). That is "abiding in Christ" and we we refer to as the Christian "walk".

I hope this helps.

I certainly don't have a problem with any of that. The problem is with the orthodox party line that preaches a doctrine of sin management, and is designed to keep people locked in sin. The modern scribes and pharisees have the keys to the kingdom, and they won't go in themselves, and won't let anyone else in, either. Beware the leaven of the pharisees [religious people]. Religion won't get you saved, neither will mere belief.

Faith is different from works, and no amount of "being good" will get one anywhere spiritually, but faith is manifested in performance; faith is action based on the truth. Not religion or doctrine.

Jesus was asked to provide a sign of his authority, but he said that no sign would be given this world of men [paraphrasing his use of a traditionally gnostic formula] except for the 'sign of Jonah'. The sign of Jonah: a stinking foreigner gets washed up on the beach having been inside a fish for three days, and tells the Ninevites they've been a bunch of evil bastards and they'd better clean up their act right quick or God's going to level their city. Here's the sign: the Ninevites heard the truth regardless of the unlikely (and possibly disgusting) source, recognized it for what it was, and acted on it immediately. That's what we're called to do. Fooling around with dogma and doctrine is just a way of avoiding responsibility for doing our part in our relationship with God.

You're right, it's best to be with other people on the path, but that doesn't require an organization, for "where two or more are gathered together in my name, there I shall be also." We need the mutual encouragement and support, but we don't need an organization to do it. It's not the the organization is necessarily evil, it's just irrelevant. It's the congregation that counts.

By the way, if the Spirit of Truth tells you to jump, you ask, "how high?" on the way up. It's always right. If the Spirit tells you I'm telling you the truth, act on it, regardless of what you think of the source; but if it's hogwash, ignore it, and no harm done. I rely on God himself to inform you as to what you should do, I don't expect anyone to take my word for anything.

What if the Spirit tells you to worship an idol or write a book and call it 'another testament of Jesus Christ', or jump off a bridge?

We need to test the spirits that speak to us to make sure that we are hearing from THE Spirit. We can only do this through faithful interpretation of the Bible (e.g. doctrine), and seeing if what the 'spirit' says contradicts what the Holy Spirit authored. If you read the KJV, that's referred to as "rightly dividing the Word of truth". The best way to learn this is at a church that faithfully teaches the Bible. So I guess we do need the Bible, the church, doctrine and each other.

What if the Spirit tells you to worship an idol or write a book and call it 'another testament of Jesus Christ', or jump off a bridge?

We need to test the spirits that speak to us to make sure that we are hearing from THE Spirit. We can only do this through faithful interpretation of the Bible (e.g. doctrine), and seeing if what the 'spirit' says contradicts what the Holy Spirit authored. If you read the KJV, that's referred to as "rightly dividing the Word of truth". The best way to learn this is at a church that faithfully teaches the Bible. So I guess we do need the Bible, the church, doctrine and each other.

It's an idiotic example, because the Holy Spirit doesn't spout nonsense. Of course, there are people who listen to the voices from the back of their heads and call it "The Spirit"; I know one such person who jumped off Key Bridge in Rosslyn, other side of the Potomac from Georgetown, and broke her back. But I don't feel the need to talk about generalities or theories, because the only thing that counts is that a person act on the truth when God gives it to him. Of course he has to have peace to be able to listen effectively, and the only way to have the necessary peace is to be doing the love and forgiveness thing in a real way. People who aren't doing that are listening to all sorts of whacky spirit messages all the time with disastrous results. I'm not talking to those people.

Btw, I thought of one of those, "I should have said..." things, having to do with the "sacrifice of Jesus as atonement for sin" things. It's true, Jesus' sacrifice was the thing that freed us from the bondage to sin. But it's not the main aspect of his demonstration. It's the thing we focus on so much because we're so worried about ourselves. "My sin is what's really important to me, since I am the center of My universe and it all revolves around ME." That's just self-worship, and idolotry. Such people miss the connection to God that Jesus offered. God's love is the main thing, and the focus on God is what counts. "Die to self daily, take up your cross and follow me." Death to self means killing self-importance, with the result that you have to recognize that, on a cosmic level, your sin, while it may loom large in your own imagination, is of absolutely no significance. In fact, unless you get your head straight with God, your whole life and death is of no significance or consequence.

The fire of **** is permanent, but what goes into it is totally consumed. Jesus' metaphors about what happens to the "non-saved" all relate to things that can be completely burned up. Trees, grass, straw. He called it the "second death". What makes a person think that he's worth maintaining in a state of eternal torture because of his sin? What makes him think he's that important? Or that his sin is so significant that we're going to keep him around and roast him for eternity? That stuff is from John Milton's "Paradise Lost", not Jesus, and is just another reflection of orthodoxy's theology of sin-management.

I think one has to be prepared to sacrifice everything to become Christ. Including his views about whatever promise of eternal life he derives from his reading or instruction. Jesus didn't say, "worship me", he said, "follow me"; the mission is not to worship the Christ, the mission is to become the Christ. Not to "emulate" Christ, not to "be Christ-like", but to be Christ. What else does it mean for the church to be "the body of Christ" or "the bride of Christ"? When the two are joined together, they shall become one flesh. The Christ is risen, indeed; in us. And those who won't do that, can't make that sacrifice, won't survive the transition, regardless of whether they go to church religiously on Sunday, or Friday evening, for that matter, and regardless of their beliefs or their feelings about having been "born again".

Jesus' parable of the people working in the vinyard tells us that for each of us, the reward will be the same. And the reward in this case is life in the presence and mind of God. The alternative is death. Your choice. But my view is that it doesn't really matter whether there is any kind of survival of consciousness after death. Because the path I'm on is the only satisfying way to live now. Heaven is now, this is eternity. Get on your path and get moving. Don't be distracted, don't play other people's tapes, don't run other people's programs, don't be pulled off your path. Every minute you waste is life in ****.

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord.

It's an idiotic example, because the Holy Spirit doesn't spout nonsense.

But how do you know it is really the Holy Spirit? Does your heart convince like the Mormons say?

“"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?” (Jer 17:9 NAS95)

We must check these spirits:

“As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;” (Eph 4:14 NAS95)

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1Jo 4:1 NAS95)

God will not contradict Himself, so we test the Holy Spirit with His Word. The Holy Spirit will not contradict Scripture.

Btw, I thought of one of those, "I should have said..." things, having to do with the "sacrifice of Jesus as atonement for sin" things. It's true, Jesus' sacrifice was the thing that freed us from the bondage to sin. But it's not the main aspect of his demonstration. It's the thing we focus on so much because we're so worried about ourselves. "My sin is what's really important to me, since I am the center of My universe and it all revolves around ME."

You are absolutely correct! His death on the cross was how the Father Glorified the Son (John 17:1). We glorify the Son by confessing this and believing the gospel (Rom 10:9,10)

The fire of **** is permanent, but what goes into it is totally consumed. Jesus' metaphors about what happens to the "non-saved" all relate to things that can be completely burned up. Trees, grass, straw. He called it the "second death". What makes a person think that he's worth maintaining in a state of eternal torture because of his sin? What makes him think he's that important? Or that his sin is so significant that we're going to keep him around and roast him for eternity? That stuff is from John Milton's "Paradise Lost", not Jesus, and is just another reflection of orthodoxy's theology of sin-management.

That doesn't square with Scripture:

“These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,” (2Th 1:9 NAS95)

“"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."” (Mt 25:46 NAS95)

It speaks of eternal punishment in these verses, not eternal fire.

I think one has to be prepared to sacrifice everything to become Christ. Including his views about whatever promise of eternal life he derives from his reading or instruction. Jesus didn't say, "worship me", he said, "follow me"; the mission is not to worship the Christ, the mission is to become the Christ. Not to "emulate" Christ, not to "be Christ-like", but to be Christ. What else does it mean for the church to be "the body of Christ" or "the bride of Christ"? When the two are joined together, they shall become one flesh. The Christ is risen, indeed; in us. And those who won't do that, can't make that sacrifice, won't survive the transition, regardless of whether they go to church religiously on Sunday, or Friday evening, for that matter, and regardless of their beliefs or their feelings about having been "born again".

Not sure why you discount sound teaching (doctrine). It's unBiblical:

Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

1Ti 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

1Ti 6:1 All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against.

1Ti 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Tit 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Jesus' parable of the people working in the vinyard tells us that for each of us, the reward will be the same. And the reward in this case is life in the presence and mind of God. The alternative is death. Your choice. But my view is that it doesn't really matter whether there is any kind of survival of consciousness after death. Because the path I'm on is the only satisfying way to live now. Heaven is now, this is eternity. Get on your path and get moving. Don't be distracted, don't play other people's tapes, don't run other people's programs, don't be pulled off your path. Every minute you waste is life in ****.

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord.

Just be sure the path you are on is the one Jesus teaches:

“13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Mt 7:13-14 NAS95)

Hi guys, first time posting over in this forum.

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. I think this is established in this thread. Also, I like what Paul said in Romans 14:5, "One man considers one day more sacred than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." In this text Paul was also dealing with the matters of the Law in eating.

The important thing about the Sabbath is to keep it holy.

Hi, Perferator, good points.

But how do you know it is really the Holy Spirit? ...

I've been thinking about this question. I think the mistake people make is in thinking that one person has to convince another about what the spirit tells them. So I don't need to persuade anyone else about what the spirit tells me. If what I've got is truth, then the spirit will reveal it to others as such. Not my job to persuade anyone.

I think that is what is required is that a person understand for himself what the spirit tells him. And if he is living in love and forgiveness, then he will have the peace necessary to listen effectively. If Jesus is going to be the lord of one's life, then one has to do what the Lord said. All that's really required is intellectual honesty (the opposite, in my estimation, of "blasphemy against the holy spirit") and honest seeking. "For all who seek shall find..." - not "may find", not "could find", but "shall find". There are people who make up wacky stuff and say the spirit told them, but that's not intellectually honest, and it's the reason, I think, why Paul said to "test the spirits".

Jesus said "the only sign which shall be provided to this world of men is the sign of Jonah." The key to understanding that is in the response of the Ninevites, not that of Jonah or what happened to him. A stinking foreigner gets washed up on the beach outside of Ninevah after having been in the belly of a fish for three days. He doesn't even speak the language correctly and looks like [you know]. He tells the Ninevites they've been a bunch of evil [you know] and that unless they straighten up and fly right pretty quickly, God's going to level their city, and them with it.

Much to Jonah's disapointment, the Ninevites (1) heard the truth, even though it came from a stinking foreigner; (2) recognized the truth for what it was; and (3) acted on it immediately. That's what's required of us. That's why we need to rely on the Spirit, because that's what gives us the perception of truth. Our ordinary senses cannot determine truth because they're unreliable and have insufficient bandwidth (unless you see ultraviolet and infrared and hear noises in excess of 22,000 cycles per second), and reason cannot determine truth because it's only a data processing engine. Reason will tell you that this is a true syllogism, for example: Max is a cat; all cats are green; therefore Max is green. Garbage in, garbage out.

The holy spirit, the paraclete, the helper, is our only means for perception of truth. If one persists in lying to himself, he'll never hear it, but the person who hears it, recognizes it, and acts on it without hesitation is the man of true faith.

No amount of doctrine, dogma, tradition, or ritual observances will get you what the Holy Spirit can get you.

So my answer to that question is, "if you don't know, you've got a problem."

No amount of doctrine, dogma, tradition, or ritual observances will get you what the Holy Spirit can get you.

Doctrine is the teaching of the Holy Spirit via the Word of God. The rest of your post is your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to, but it carries no authority. The Word of God is authoritative, absolutely. It is without error and doesn't contradict itself. God cannot lie.

“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,” (1Ti 4:1 NAS95)

This is why we must test the spirits. Since the Bible was written under the influence of the Holy Spirit, if the spirit you are listening to disagrees with the Bible, it is false. I don't really mean to belabor the point. It's just that you say you listen to the Spirit, but then in the same breath you say "no amount of doctrine ... will get what the Holy Spirit can get you". Your statement makes no sense when you realize that the Holy Spirit is the author of correct doctrine.

.... It's just that you say you listen to the Spirit, but then in the same breath you say "no amount of doctrine ... will get what the Holy Spirit can get you". Your statement makes no sense when you realize that the Holy Spirit is the author of correct doctrine.

I guess I'm acknowledging the idea that some of the doctrine people rely on is not what you might call, "correct"; there are certainly people out there preaching nonbiblical ideas as "doctrine" and saying they got it from "the holy spirit". There's a guy on TV early in the morning who calls himself "bishop" something or other, and for a donation, will send you your very own written prophecy. I'm guessing I could do better at the Chinese restaurant as far as his "prophecy" goes. So there's doctrine and there's "doctrine", I reckon.

And while I don't mean to downgrade the Bible's authoritative status, there are people who worship the Bible and miss it's message. Elevating the Book to sacred status is a way of avoiding responsiblity for doing what it says. Idolotry, in my opinion.

And, yes, you can characterize what I say as mere opinion. But that's a way of saying that you're not going treat it as the sort of thing that can be neither true or false. But I think that one is responsible to God for the truth that God gives him, regardless of the source. And of course it's up to you to decide whether something you get is true or not. And, you know when Paul said, "All scripture is inspired by God and useful for instruction, etc.", the Canon as we know it was still several hundred years in the future. People talk a lot about Paul's views about doctrine, in order to justify sixteen hundred years of "doctrine" that hadn't been invented when Paul was around.

I agree, that one ought to "read the instructions". But that's not a substitute for a relationship with God. A person worshipping Jesus and worshipping the Bible while ignoring his responsibility for his own relationship with God is like a dog that sniffs at your finger when you're trying to point at something you want the dog to look at. Don't mistake the guide and the guidebook for the destination.

The reason is very simple. It was decreed by the roman emporer. This is what started the "under ground" churches. Early Christians voiced their opinions with their feet. Some fled across the Piedmont valley (sp) to the Alps. Some fled to the catacombs of rome. The underground church was named for those that fled to the catacombs rather then giving in to Pagan rome. For many early Christians it was a choice of convert to the so called universal church or die. The answer in the bible is quite clear. You READ it and decide what YOU choose to do.

User,

I appreciate the fact that we can talk about this civilly. A lot of folks get a little weirded out talking about the things of God. I didn't really mean anything derogatory about your opinion other than to say that opinion is merely that and doesn't carry authority like the word of God does.

Which leads to my next point: The Bile is sacred (i.e. Holy), but you are right it should not be worshiped like a graven image. While it is important to read, and not be worshiped, it is extremely valuable to us as Christians since it is our only infallible source of information from God Himself. The way the Holy Spirit validates it's truth is through His own witness. In other words, the truth of Scripture is evident to believers, like knowing the difference between hot and cold or that honey is sweet. To believers, it's like "Of course it's true!". That is the "witness of the Spirit". To all others it is foolishness, or merely intellectually stimulating or important as 'historical literature'.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the whole 1600 yea