I was wondering if any one can help me. I have an old hammer side by side 12 guage shotgun. No name on it All it has is a small figure of a fish like a 3 year old would draw on the underside of it. It's very old and was wondering if any one could tell who made it. No other markings on it at all. Thanks.

No markings. Are you sure? When you take the barrels off, are there any markings on the action flats inside, the watertable. None on the underside of the barrels? No proof marks. Just checking. What are the barrels made of? Damascus?
Pete

If your planning on shooting that old shotgun please get it checked out by a gunsmith. If it's got Damascus barrels it could be very dangerous to shoot. Like Pete said take down the barrels and look on the underside of them and where the gun pivots in the breech flats for markings. There were lots of these made by a bunch of different companiesw at the turn of the century.

There are no names on it anywhere. The only markings are the fish symble and on the bottom of the barrels there is written, CHOKE, 182, an S inside what looks like a cloud shape, a 12 over a C inside a diamond and then a E, LG and a star inside a shape of a diamond ring. These are the only markings on the gun. I have taken it apart and couldn't find any more.

Those marks indicate that it was proofed in Liege, Belgium. Unless it has the letters 'PV' and the symbol of a rampant lion it is NOT Nitro Proof. Therefore proofed for Black Powder only. It should still need checking out by a competent Gunsmith before even firing with balck powder ammo. Lagopus.....

I agree that this old shotgun isn't safe with modern ammunition. The 18.2 indicates the amount of choke. The normal 12 gauge bore is 18.5mm (.728"-.729"). So the choke is .3mm or .012", which is very slightly tighter than Improved Cylinder at .010".

Bye
Jack

Thanks for all that. Any more info would be great especially on the make of it. Have never seen one with a fish symbol on it before.

I'm afraid that if it doesn't have the maker's name on it, it's a no-name product made at the lowest possible price. Liege, Belgium, probably was the gun manufacturing centre of the world, 100 years ago, and their specially was these cheap farmer guns. A lot of farmers around here had one. At least the Belgian government proof marks show it was structurally sound when new.

Bye
Jack

Back to the barrel idea. What do the bores look like to your eyes? Can you tell is the barrels are Damascus steel or not? Lots of cheap Damascus came out of Belgium on those guns.
Pete

And lots of good damascus too. Purdey's were happy to buy in Belgian tubes. I would doubt that this one is of quality though if no name was put on it. I see scores of these type of guns here in the U.K. Most are loose in the action through use. They tended to satisfy the lower end of the market and were agricultural tools. Although I would stress that not all Belgian made hammer guns were of poor quality by any means, it is just that was the niche in the market that they could compete in here in the U.K. and so they developed an unjust reputation for poor quality with their export guns. Best advice would be to take it into a reputable Gunsmith for a proper opinion. Lagopus.....

There are no markings on the barrels at all. Down the middle of the 2 barrels where they join on the top, there are several squiggly lines. Other then that the barrels are blank. To my untrained eye they still ok but in saying that i am going to get the whole gun checked by a good gunsmith.

Damascus is pretty easy to spot once you've seen it. They wound small bars of steel and iron, hammered (hot forged) them together, wound this bar around a mandrel, and hammered them together into a barrel. This results in a small squiggly pattern on the surface of the barrel. The bluing process colored the iron a bit differently than the steel. The pattern is hard to see if the bluing is worn off, although it's still there. There's usually very little wear under the front of the forearm, so that's the place to look.

Damascus barrels were better than fluid steel (modern type) barrels before World War I, in the opinion of many. They may have been right, as end-to-end splits of fluid steel barrels certainly weren't unknown. Today's problem with these old damascus barrels is hidden corrosion in the seams between the original bars. Most pre-WW II ammo had corrosive primers, and it took a very rigorous cleaning to get it all out. So a barrel that was perfectly safe when new in 1900 may blow out with even a moderate black powder or IMR 7625 load today.

Bye
Jack

an option, albeit a bit of a pricey one, would be to have the barrels sleeved. then you could shoot it safely with modern ammo....not 3 inch magnums, but surely field loads @ 2 3/4"

I've had lots of those go thru the gunshop when I was in business. Most made great wall hangers and interesting conversation pieces. Lots of good inexpensive modern side by sides used at the gun shops if you want a shooter.

Any doubt at all about safety is a good reason to hang it up. Like Chris said you can get these sleeved, but your talking about investing money in something that's not worth much to begin with. If it was one of the better grade guns with a known name it may be worth it.


If its a Damascus barrel then Jack hit on the corrosion safety problem. It may shoot fine with low pressure black powder loads, but may let go and burst the barrel on the 1st or the 100th shot. You just never know. Your gunsmith will be able to give you a better idea.

Thanks for all the info. going into town on the weekend so might take it in to a gunsmith I know and get it checked. Won't be shooting it. might just hang it on the wall. Again thanks for every one's help.