I'm not saying a 25 cal. handgun can't hurt or kill, but here's a story that illustrates why there are better self defense rounds.

MADEIRA BEACH, FLORIDA — Authorities say a St. Petersburg-area man is recovering after a loaded gun he jokingly put to his head went off.
The Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office says Dale Roberts and his girlfriend had been drinking at their apartment when the accidental shooting occurred Saturday around 2:45 a.m. Authorities say the 20-year-old decided the .25-caliber handgun wasn’t working and pointed it to his head as a lark. The gun fired and lodged a bullet in his skull.

Roberts was taken to Bayfront Medical Center in St. Petersburg where he was being treated for a skull fracture.

The sheriff’s office is investigating the incident.


Greenhorn Dave additional comment: if the bullet had gone through his skull, I'm not sure it would have reduced his intelligence too much.

I have witnessed several shooting involving .25 Auto's. Only one was fatal. An 80+ year old woman. When the coronor picked her up the bullet fell on the floor. It had passed through her midsection and was stopped by her clothing as it exited.:confused:
I once went on a shooting call and found the victim with seven (7) holes in his torso from a 25. He was mad as **** and wanted to go back and take the 25 away from the shooter and put it where the sun don't shine. He was treated and released after the bullets were removed from just under his skin and muscle!!:eek: The shooter was arrested and charged with attempted murder.

Just a few comments (I think you're right about the .25...but aslo the .22, 32, and 380)

Have run trama X-ray, surgury x-ray, CT. Occasionally Ig et to follow people from the moment they're rushed into the ER doors to the post-op.

MANY times have seen bullets inside of people, can plot their course, and find that if they had just a little more penetration, they'd have done the job...sometimes it's honest folks who got shot by bad guys so it's good they used an "almost" caliber, but most often it's the less than productive members of society....this doesn't count the folks shot up around the edges.

.25's and .22's will often run around the skin on your skull when they strike at an angle...self inflicted or not, it the little guys don't really want to dig in on an angle shot. Have seen one guy with 7 .380's that ran around or skipped off his skull...he passed away from the cracks left, and massive brain bleeding, but he was up and functional enough to walk into the ER. Fat man with a .380 stuck in his sternum, right above the heart...38 wad cutter pressed up against the spine (in from the front).

In the years, there has only been ONE definate handloaded bullet inside a patient. Recognized the .357 semi-wadcutter's profile as home made (sharp cornered lube grooves and a gas check). He had carried that for years pressed up against his pelvis ( a bit more power = busted pelvis...you don't stand on one of those).

So...yeas the little guns are fun....and they can be easy to shoot...but get a "real" gun rather than an "almost" gun.

Thanks for the warning. There's a lot to work up to.

How hard can you throw a BB? Sounds a lot like the guy that wanted to hunt deer with a .38! :D

Greenhorn it sounds like society would have been better off it that fella had used a bigger gun. At the minimum he's certainly in the running for the Darwin award.

I investigated one suicide where the victim put a .25 to his sternum. The bullet went through him, through the back of the chair he was in and through the masonite paneling on the wall behind him. I would rather have a .25 than a .32 short. I have seen them fail to penetrate a leather motorcycle jacket at 3 yards.

Kudu40

PS, one suicide I investigated the victim put a full size 1911 .45ACP with 230 Gr. FMJ to his temple. The pistol jammed after the first shot. His parents ran down in time to see him clearing the jam for the second shot. He did succomb to the injuries from the first shot but it sure makes one think.

Kudu40

I will put in a kind word for the puny 25 caliber pistol.
I carried one for 15 -20 years.During tht timeframe,I had a 45ACP,several 9MM militaryand a 32 caliber;all autos For most of the time I had a 357 Magnum revolver.
The 25 was a 1910 Mauser,and weighed almost nothing and took up almost no space.I could carry it anywhere at any time,with absolutely no discomfort.
A gun in hand is worth a thousand at home,when it is needed.
For the last 20 years,I've been carrying a little S&W J revolver in 38 Special.
It's a little bulkier,but much better.
Frank
.

I have owned one 25 auto. After shooting it into a wet telephone book to see how it penetrated, I decided that I had better not shoot anyone with it or they may get mad and hurt me.

Back int the 60's the .25ACP, especially the Browning, was a fairly popular backup gun for policemen and the same arguments we see in this thread were going on then too. Along about 1969 a leading police trade journal published a story about a policewoman who grew tired of carrying her regulation issue .38 Special revolver and wanted to carry a .25 instead, so she submitted a written request to her division commander. His reply became a classic of police firearms lore of that time. He said this:

Officer Jones,

I have received your request to convert from your issue .38 Special revolver to a .25 caliber automatic. I must deny your request for the following reasons:

1. If I let you carry it, you might load it.

2. If you load it, you might shoot it.

3. If you shoot it, you might hit someone.....

4. And if you hit someone with a .25 auto he will get up and beat the living **** out of you.

Signed,

Division Commander

Well said!

My .25 auto is strictly for amusement shooting.

Just a few comments (I think you're right about the .25...but aslo the .22, 32, and 380)

Have run trama X-ray, surgury x-ray, CT. Occasionally Ig et to follow people from the moment they're rushed into the ER doors to the post-op.

MANY times have seen bullets inside of people, can plot their course, and find that if they had just a little more penetration, they'd have done the job...sometimes it's honest folks who got shot by bad guys so it's good they used an "almost" caliber, but most often it's the less than productive members of society....this doesn't count the folks shot up around the edges.

.25's and .22's will often run around the skin on your skull when they strike at an angle...self inflicted or not, it the little guys don't really want to dig in on an angle shot. Have seen one guy with 7 .380's that ran around or skipped off his skull...he passed away from the cracks left, and massive brain bleeding, but he was up and functional enough to walk into the ER. Fat man with a .380 stuck in his sternum, right above the heart...38 wad cutter pressed up against the spine (in from the front).

In the years, there has only been ONE definate handloaded bullet inside a patient. Recognized the .357 semi-wadcutter's profile as home made (sharp cornered lube grooves and a gas check). He had carried that for years pressed up against his pelvis ( a bit more power = busted pelvis...you don't stand on one of those).

So...yeas the little guns are fun....and they can be easy to shoot...but get a "real" gun rather than an "almost" gun.


Could not agree more

My step dad ran a bookie joint in La Crescenta Ca. back in the 1940’s or 1950’s. He carried a little browning .25 and a pair of brass knuckles. After he died the .25 was stolen from mom (Darn) and when mom died I got the brass knucks. A nice conversation piece.

I'd never advocate a .25 as a primary defense gun. Nevertheless, it can have a role as a last-ditch backup, and if I were ever forced into using one as my sole weapon, I'd advise anyone not to bet against me. It's the fighter, and not the weapon, that wins the fight.

Pisgah - I would agree, except in the case of someone bringing a knife to a gun fight! :eek:

>Pisgah - I would agree, except in the case of someone bringing a knife to a gun fight! :eek:
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kdub, I'd agree with you -- except you don't know my friend "Stick" ( a hint -- they don't call him that 'cause he's skinny, and his other nickname is "Slash"). Some folks are plain scarier with a knife than they would be with a gun...

In evaluating the .25ACP as a defensive round, we have to remain mindful that the purpose of a defensive firearm is to stop a human being from inflicting death or great bodily injury upon yourself, and that means it has to do it reliably providing shot placement is what it is supposed to be. The .25ACP has a record of failure in this regard that is mountainous and goes all the way back to its earliest days before the First World War. It has failed in detail with chest shots, head shots, and spinal shots, all of which are supposed to be disabling or even deadly shots. So even with correct shot placement, this round is misplaced in any conversation about defensive firearms. Any thought of using it as a primary defensive arm is foolhardy unless one anticipates being attacked by a rampaging tomato can. And even then I have my doubts.

..sounds as if you are going out to buy a defense gun. that's different from suing what fate/circumstances/economics has left you in hand. If going out to buy a defence handgun, buy a real one. If circumstances have left you with only a .25, then use it while you save your money for a "real" gun.

I like .25's...find them fun to shoot and play with. Respect their ability to produce an instantly deadly wound, but not their probability.

I would rather have a small .22, just because its cheap to shoot and to me would be mostly a novelty gun, plus if you ever needed it, you better be able to shoot it.
I remember when I was stationed at Fort Lewis, WA, there was a COPS filmed in a little town outside the gate, they had a doper shot multiple times with a 25, all the bullets stuck in the muscle just under the skin of his back, the EMTs said it was because he was so wiry.
Now on the suicide side of things, also while stationed at Lewis, one of my Soldiers who moonlighted as an EMT saved a guys life to attempted suicide with a 9mm; he kept him alive long enough to get to the hospital, where he more or less recovered, so sometimes it doesn't matter the caliber.
Fort Lewis was a wild place in the early 90's; Rangers shooting it out with gangsters in Tacoma, I had 2 roommates when I first arrived, one went to prison for statutory rape (of a 12 Y/O) one had another soldier borrow his S10 Blazer to take his girlfriend home, on the way, she waved at a car, they turned around and shot up the Blazer, killing her. My roommate took the money from the insurance company, fixed the windows and drove the truck around as is. I never liked riding in it.
Andy

why not use a .25 ..because theres so many better choices..to me women have an advantage because they can carry anthing, they can shoot in a ladies handbag.. men on the other hand have to make decisions based on whats most important to them and fits thier lifestyle .. id never have gotton away with umpiring pony legue or as a scout leader if i was packing big heat..so i carried what worked for my life as an family man.. now i could carry anything but carry what im best with..
ps if any of you ever umpired an little or pony legue game you probably know that you
want something ,if its nothing but the ball bat.. these parents really get agitated when you call little johny out .. the same little johny they are living out thier dream of being an super star.. little johny probably just wants to have fun ..he doesnt realize his dads unhealthy atitude toward the whole thing. theres plenty that use the boys leagues for the right purpose but ive seen several who i think were just a little warped in thier parenting..

This thread reminds me of the fact that the gun (.25acp) is one thing, but the bullet (that does the killing) is another. Either, or both can be the weak link. I certainly don't subscribe to the .25acp idea, but I have a healthy respect for the lowly .22lr and it's kind because I have killed a steer every fall for almost 3 decades with a variety of .22s. I'm witness to the fact that a standard velocity .22lr usually does incredible damage to cow skulls, sometimes even passing all the way through and doing ample damage to brains and bone on the way. Some of these critters were shot with pistols, others with rifles. All were dead before they hit the ground. The distance and angle varied a lot because some of them were wild range cows that I couldn't get too close to. I've yet to witness the steer that can withstand one precise shot from a .22lr. Admitedly, I know animal anatomy, and I take my time to thread the bullet to its proper destination. I have a very healthy respect for the .22lr and heaven help any foe I might have to shoot with "just a .22" That being said, my carry gun is a .45acp because in a self defense situation I might not have the luxury of picking my shot at leisure. Bigger is better, but little can kill you too. And... the bullet does the killing, not the gun.

why not use a .25 ..because theres so many better choices..to me women have an advantage because they can carry anthing, they can shoot in a ladies handbag.. men on the other hand have to make decisions based on whats most important to them and fits thier lifestyle .. id never have gotton away with umpiring pony legue or as a scout leader if i was packing big heat..so i carried what worked for my life as an family man.. now i could carry anything but carry what im best with..
ps if any of you ever umpired an little or pony legue game you probably know that you
want something ,if its nothing but the ball bat.. these parents really get agitated when you call little johny out .. the same little johny they are living out thier dream of being an super star.. little johny probably just wants to have fun ..he doesnt realize his dads unhealthy atitude toward the whole thing. theres plenty that use the boys leagues for the right purpose but ive seen several who i think were just a little warped in thier parenting..

I generally don't like the idea of carrying a gun in a purse, or anything else that can be easily snatched off of your person, meaning you're now chasing the guy who just stole your gun.

Bottom line:

IF that's what your life (and the life of your loved ones)...if you're content, then that pretty much sets the value.

yea that could happen with a ladies handbag .. but in that same line of thinking
a smart mugger is gonna have the gun in your ribs if he can get in close enough to snatch the bag..i used to go shopping with my wife an walk off like i was going to another department..
then slip back and wait until she was checking an head of lettuce or something .. when she turned around id be standing there a few ft away with her purse in my hand.. we would call it cutting up but i was also trying to get her to be more aware of what was around her..
of course this is from a man that never sets in an reastuarant booth or table with my back to the door ..any one behind me is gonna get evaluated anywhere i am..now that practice has saved my fanny a couple times that i know of cause i use to carry a right smart of operating cash..old school i guess you would call it..:) i also sometimes carry an special wallet for muggers with a few bucks ,old id [s.s. messed up] , papers an such in it..thats if im going to charlotte..keep you eyes open an have a good day ..