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Kansas
07-26-2008, 11:45 PM
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/2008/jul/26/nth_battle/

The nth battle of the amendment

By Patrick Kelley (http://www.emporiagazette.com/staff/pat_ke/) (Contact (http://www.emporiagazette.com/staff/pat_ke/contact/))

Saturday, July 26, 2008


THE SECOND AMENDMENT in the Bill of Rights continues to give people fits.
Recently, the Supreme Court of the United States re-read the amendment to mean the District of Columbia could not bar its residents from owning handguns, which called into question any number of local and state laws controlling gun ownership and sales.
This is the amendment in full:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Well, that seems clear enough ... sort of. It has two more commas than it needs, but they really don’t change the meaning.
It is clear that Americans have the right to own guns. For what purposes they may own them is not as clear.
Gun-rights advocates tend to read the last half of the amendment as the whole amendment. Gun-control advocates like the first half better, choosing to read the amendment as a justification for government creation of militias — what we call today the National Guard.
But both halves are part of the same amendment and cannot be separated.
It is reasonable to assume that Congress’ intention in the amendment was to declare that people had the right to own guns because in case of emergency — say rebellion, Indian attack or foreign invasion — the people would be called upon to defend their country. In that case, it would be better if people already knew how to shoot and best if they already had guns. In those days, Congress did not think that money grew on taxpayers. To a poor, lightly populated nation strung out along the Atlantic coast, the idea of self-armed soldiers on every farm and in every settlement must have been attractive.
Certainly, times have changed, as the gun-control people point out. The United States has a large national army and well-organized militias in every state. The government supplies the weapons for all of these troops and soldiers are not, in fact, allowed to bring their own guns from home.
While the times have changed, the Second Amendment has not, and it will remain in force until an amendment is passed to repeal or change it or until the republic falls. Gun-rights advocates are on solid legal ground with gun ownership.
But the final legal opinion on the rights of federal, state and local government to control gun ownership has not been written. Future courts will revisit the issue and controls on the ownership of firearms will tighten and loosen as the decades pass.
Someday, justices may decide that every American should be issued a gun at age 18, or that possession of a gun automatically obligates the owner to National Guard training and service.
Someday, a judge, reasoning that a “well regulated Militia” has a responsibility to know what arms are available in case of emergency, may order registration of every firearm in the nation.
The right to keep and bear arms is in the Constitution. But what Americans think about that right could keep lawyers and lobbyists busy for centuries to come.
Patrick S. Kelley
Editorial Page Editor

m141a
07-27-2008, 04:38 AM
Seems to me what he describes in his writings is a conscripted army, one of mandatory service upon coming of age. Many nations still use this system to build armies.

The Swiss used to issue weapons to their citizens, for "homeland security", and there was training also...the indivdual was charged with caring for and knowing his weapon....thus the reason for all those fine K31's today.

But a conscripted army has nothing to do with gun ownership in the purest sence of the 2nd......

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


nothing in that sentence even suggests mandatory servitude.

Rocky Raab
07-27-2008, 06:10 AM
Editor Kelley is correct that a judge might someday rule in favor of universal gun registration for the purpose of knowing what guns are avaliable for a national emergency. That does not imply that such a ruling would be just, or even Constitutional.

One could counter-argue that a future judge might also rule that the concept of a "free press" only applies to manual presses with hand-set type, or that all means of producing written material be registered - purely to insure "accuracy and truth" of course. After all, things certainly have changed.

(Edit to add: I noticed that link to Contact the Editor, so I pasted the above comments to him.)

faucettb
07-27-2008, 06:39 AM
Ah judges! One federal judges just ruled that the Canadian gray wolf was an endangered species in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming after they had been taken off the endangered list by the Federal Government. Basically a judge can rule anything, be it unconstitutional, uncaring or utter nonsense. I guess that's why we have both State and Supreme Courts to keep such "nonsense rulings" in check. If I want a specific ruling I'll just find the right judge to make it. Heck with commen sense, reality or any of those kind of issues.

unclenick
07-27-2008, 06:56 AM
I've forgotten his name, but a few years back, Gunweek published the opinion on the wording of the Second Amendment by someone considered to be the nation's leading grammatical authority. He stated, based on the structure of that amendment and the way people wrote English at the time (i.e., the commas that seem extra today because they are unnecessary to meaning, but which were then used to indicated any brief pause or break in speech), the Militia clause was a dependent clause, and that the RKBA was primary.

slim 60
07-27-2008, 09:19 AM
can you imagine an time when U.S. citizens that owned arms all took them to
fight an common foe..i can t.. theres never been an armed group with anywhere near the
size or this infantry capability..then make sure they fight an gurrilla style war..
nope i can t imagine thier potential capability..the hardest job would be keeping the people from fighting each other..thats where strong leadership can make them an winner or be freedoms undoing..remember the dopes who wanted to make george washington the king..
power corrupts ,,absolute power corrupts absolutely..i sure hope this experiment in government by the people continues to work..the alternative could be very bleak..
with that in mind i ll say they should forget taking the peoples arms..

kdub
07-27-2008, 10:53 AM
Well said, Slim - I agree with you completely.

flashhole
07-27-2008, 12:58 PM
Not to divert too far from the original post but Slim does make a good point .... the capture of the guy who was leading Serbia in the slaughter of the muslems has been in the news the past few days. They ran a news segment on how the killing was rampant and the most fearful thing in the cities were the "snipers". These were guys on roof tops with scoped hunting rifles. To me it was an illustration of just how ugly things could get in an urban environment when law enforcement goes to pot. No telling how many people were killed by assialants that will never be held accountable for their actions. Maybe their actions were correct? That whole situation was too complicated to understand just watching news broadcasts. If I were there and my family were threatened I'd be doing something, maybe not shooting people from roof tops, but something.

Bones
07-27-2008, 05:06 PM
B]Someday, a judge, reasoning that a “well regulated Militia” has a responsibility to know what arms are available in case of emergency, may order registration of every firearm in the nation.[/B]

Down under all gun owners and all firearms are registered ( supposed to be anyway ). The trouble with that as I see it is that if we were "taken over" the invaders would get to know where all the firearms were to confiscate them. So no insurgency movement

Bones

Bucolic Buffalo
07-27-2008, 07:34 PM
B]Someday, a judge, reasoning that a “well regulated Militia” has a responsibility to know what arms are available in case of emergency, may order registration of every firearm in the nation
Down under all gun owners and all firearms are registered ( supposed to be anyway ). The trouble with that as I see it is that if we were "taken over" the invaders would get to know where all the firearms were to confiscate them. So no insurgency movement
Bones

If Australia was being invaded wouldn't all you Aussie gunowners be out in force fighting against the invaders rather then waiting for them to come and get your guns? I've always thought of the Aussies as some of the toughest fighters in the world and certainly the types of people I would want on my side in a fight.

DakotaElkSlayer
07-27-2008, 11:23 PM
As a side note... Back when I was in ROTC(during the Cold War) my instructor, a Military Intelligence guy, once told us that the Russians would never invade the US mainland due to our large amount of privately owned firearms.

Jim

langenc
07-28-2008, 05:13 PM
Yes, and it was generally agreed at that time that we would never fight the Russians. Next war, as predicted, would be with the Chinese.

RifleFan
07-28-2008, 05:27 PM
It is basic reading comprehension. The first two phrases talk about the necessity of a mililtia while the last two are the actual guaranteed right. I mean if you passed English 101 it is clear the 2nd Amendment speaks specifically to the right of the people, or an individual right. Why there is even a debate is beyond me!!!

The guy is correct about the ongoing battle. This will go on well past most of our lifetimes. It may get worse very, very soon if a bunch of people that support gun ownership and hunting don't wake up and listen to what some presidential candidates happen to be saying and to their voting records.

leverite
07-28-2008, 06:09 PM
"A well-educated citizenry, being necessary for the operation of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."

Tom Gresham on an alternate wording for the first amendment.

It's plainly obvious that the people's right produces the desired result described in the prefatory clause to this and the 2nd amendment.

However, books could not be denied if they were for entertainment, rather than educational purposes just because of that prefatory clause. ANyone smarter than a fifth grader can understand the plain language even after 200+ years.

Kansas
07-28-2008, 08:40 PM
Except for 4 justices...that is the scary part

loraksus
08-01-2008, 05:12 AM
I don't want to sound negative and depressing, but the point is moot. Registration of most firearms sold in the USA already exists, and has for quite some time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Form_4473

Yes, technically the logs are in the hands of the FFLs, not the government, and yes, there are safeguards - but if registration is ever made mandatory or the laws change, you can bet the BATF will attempt to get those logs.

How well do you know your gun dealer? Can you be sure that he will go to prison to protect those records from going to the Federal government or the State?