I hunt with a muzzle loading weapon, been doing so for some 25 years now. Recently I have been seeing folks at the range sighting in with loades that are guarenteed to punish..........the shooter! The rage now is Pyrodex pellets and usually they are loaded in threes. OUCH!
When I was Short in the tooth and just starting I follwed the lead of the old timers in my area. A .45 cal. roundball and patch over 70 gr. of FFF . It worked well and didn't kick hard. I remember one fellow who shot a .40 cal, used a .390 round ball, patch and 40 gr. of FFF. It put down big Mid western deer like they got hit by lighting. Today I used a bit more gun, mainly because it won't group well with lighter loads. I use a .577 P58 Enfield loaded with a 560 gr. minie and 80 gr of FF. It shoot 3 inch groups at 100 yards. Recoil is fine when fired offhand but gets a bit tiresome when shooting from a bench. Anyway, this year I potted a decent buck at about about 50 yards. The bullet went through him (side to side) and buried itself about a foot and a half deep in the river bank.
The point of my piece here that many I believe are beating themselves because they have been told by the powder and gun companies that they have to use these heavy loads to be effective.



Deo et Libertas in Arturnum

Hi, William:
Agreed. Being a flint shooter myself, I have to wonder about some of this new-flanged stuff. There's no way you'll make a front stuffer into a 7mm RM. The other thing I can't see is dropping $3 (Canadian) down the barrel per pop. That's what 3 pellets and a Nosler or Barnes sabot costs, GST included. Factory .30-06 is still a loonie a pop, if you shop around, a Great Plains and Goex is under a loonie, and round ball is half that.

The .50-90 Sharps wiped out the buffalo with a load that's not much more powderful than a Great Plains bullet in my T/C Hawken, and the hide men shot from 300 yards.

Bye
Jack

Pretty much agree with ya, Guys!

Had a T/C Renegade in .50 that shot the 385 gr Buffalo Ball into 3" groups at 100 yds, loaded with 90 gr of FF and a Small Pistol primer nipple conversion kit.

Eyes got to where the sights and target merged into one fuzz ball, so had to get something with a scope to see what the heck I was shooting at! Tried a 'scout' type scope mounting on the Renegade, but the balance was thrown off and I didn't like the handling.

Got a T/C Black Diamond in-line which mounts the scope where it should be, and tried the recommended 3 pellets of Pyrodex under a 240 gr saboted bullet. Took a half dozen shots to convince me the lighter rifle with the heavier loads was more than I cared for! Tried 2 pellets of 50 gr equivelent and one of 30 gr and still didn't like it. Ended up with 2 pellets of 50 gr and now find it much more comfortable and better accuracy.

Now that Hodgdon has come out with the Triple 7 pellets, think I'll give them a whirl - anything to cut down on the cleanup time!

:p I have been hunting Black powder for 20 years. I shoot the same load from my 54, 66 twist, nothing but round ball, from day one. [ I use fff and have always shot with 80 grs.] all but one of those deer allowed tha slow moving ball to go right on through . The one that didn't traveled all the way through the anus then took a left turn at the heart, went through the shoulder bone and came to a halt right under the skin.

Wow ... a lucid, sane breath of fresh air (with a hint of black powder smoke ... heh).
I shoot a CVA Mountain Rifle, purchased new more than 20 years ago, with a patched round ball.
For plinking, and introducing kids to the wonders of muzzleloading rifles, I load 50 grs. of FFG.
For a stronger load, I use 80 grs. of FFG under the same patched ball.
I don't hunt, so I can't personally attest to what the round ball does from MY rifle.
But I've talked to enough hunters over the years to know that the .490 round ball --- WHEN PLACED RIGHT --- will do the job admirably.
I knew a guy in Idaho who hunted elk with the .490 round ball over a stiff powder charge. He always got his elk because he staked-out a game trail and patiently waited for game to come to him.
But the round ball isn't FLASHY! SEXY! NEW & IMPROVED! and all the other hype that accompanies sabots, hollowpoints, jackets, black powder substitutes and so on and so forth ad nauseum.
The way some guys load for deer and black bear, you'd think they were preparing to slay the Jabberwocky! (with apologies to Lewis Carroll).

Yep strickly folks wanting to get a front stuffer to shoot as far as there big Mags. Heck I seen a guy on TV shoot a Bull Elk at better than 200 yds with one of those inlines stuffed with 3 pellets! Elk went about 50yds laid down and they waited for about 10 mins before it died. It was in behind some brush was there reason for no second shot.:rolleyes:

I have yet to see a modern inline shoot those outrageous 150gr charged loads. I've owned two different inlines, first was a knight which would shoot the Barnes 300 MZ with either 80gr. of Triple 7 3f or 90 gr. of Pyrodex P. Yes, I tried 3 Pyrodex pellets and up to 120gr. of 2f and Pyrodex RS, guess what? Couldn't get a 6" group at 100yds. Didn't really like the knight so I traded it for a Ruger 77/50. It too likes the Barnes 300 MZ and the Hornady 300XTP MAG, it will put 3 shots of either bullet under 2" @ 100yds. The powder charges? 80gr of Triple 7 3f with a #11 cap or 90 gr. of Triple 7 2f with musket caps. Maybe there's a rifle out there that will shoot 150gr charges but I've not seen one. Could it be this marketing strategy by these companys is aimed at expanding their sales by getting the average rifle hunter to think that 'their' muzzle loader is just like his 7mm whiz bang, hmmm? Is there a better way of getting people interested in muzzle loading, I think so.

With muzzle loading one learns the better way to hunt.{my opinion ] It's easy on the pocket book, easy on the body and it forces you to take your time when shooting. You see more game and is just as accurate within a 100 yards as a modern rifle. If a man can't get within 100 yards of his game then he has some other aspects of the sport of hunting to attend to and practice. I take no pleasure in killing an animal but I do take pleasure in getting as close as I possibly can to make a clean fast kill, waisting no meat. I have only taken one running shot at a deer and the only reason for that was she was so close I couldn't miss, like about ten feet away. Not to degrade any type of hunter but when one hunts with an archer , handgun hunter, and or muzzle loader they seem a breed apart. I think maybe it's the limiting of oneself to a weapon that makes the gap between the hunter and the hunted more narrow.[just a thought]
Bob

I am still shooting the .495 round ball out of a Lyman Deerstalker, with 70-80g of ffg. I fill my tag every year, and have taken huge bucks too boot. If anyone cannot fill their tag with a traditional muzzleloader using round balls, I am shure my wife could help them. She gets her deer every year with a Traditions Deerhunter in .50 cal, loaded with a .490 ball and 70g of Pyrodex.
I have nothing against the new-fangled equipment, it is just not for me.

Hi, Gents:
It's no wonder groups open up with hot loads in a muzzleloader. We use soft lead or plastic sabots so we can stuff them down the barrel, and at some point a hot load will make them strip the rifling. Bye bye accuracy.

Bye
Jack

Jack Monteith Foerst hear I live in fla the last time I ran out of powder I had to buy pirodex becouse I could not find GOEX are those fokes still in busness???also I read one of your threads you mentioned something about a "loonie" what is a loonie????????????Forest Punch

Hi, Forest:
A loonie is a Canadian $1.00 coin, `cause it's got a loon on the back. When it was introduced the Canadian dollar was worth about 90 cents U.S., but now it's down to 65 cents, so it's a good thing they named it after a diving bird. :mad:
GST is the notorious Goods & Services Tax. :mad: :mad: :mad:

There seems to be some new U.S. regulations on storing and selling black powder. As far as I know GOEX is still in business, although apparently Elephant is out of business. The Traditional Muzzleloader Message Hide
http://members.boardhost.com/tmmh/ had quite a discussion a while back.

Bye
Jack

Jack,

I kinda like the twoonie my self. A rather unique looking coin.

Hi, Gents:
There's nothing wrong with the loonie or the twoonie, until you get a pocket full and you walk with a list. IIRC (If I Remember Correctly) the twoonie wasn't the first two metal coin as several other countries minted ones earlier. The attached picture is the tail side of both coins. Her Majesty Elizabeth II graces the head side.

Bye
Jack

Hello folks, seems my thoughts on inlines are not as one sided as I might have thought. I almost got suckered into buying one of those super duper muzzle loading, kills all at 250 yard rifles. Now that was until a friend of mine who bought one, had us visit him on his farm to show it off to us.

As was mentioned earlier, stoke that new inline rifle plumb full of pellets and you were lucky to have 7 inch groups at a 100 yards off the bench using a rifle scope mind you. We have 3 muzzle loaders at the house these days and they all shoot between 65 and 90 grains of powder to get their best groups. I myself think inlines should be hunted during the regular rifle season only!
:rolleyes:

I didn't think that I would ever agree to that seperation but I think your right 2bits. The front stuffer season was meant to give a class by itself to hunters who wanted to hunt in a earlier style of hunting buy themselves with like minded hunters. But with greed what it is and people wanting to beat the system the inline modern sights/scope/sabets was introdused to follow under the same line as a regular Hawkin. Here in washington state thank God they are not allowed during the muzzle loading season. Man has the uncanny ability to screw things up for himself.
Bob

P.S. I feel the same way about the new bows with all the counter weights /wheels/sight pins etc. etc.

This thread is a little bit old, but I would like to add my two cents before it closes.
It does indeed give one a warm feeling to know he is not alone in his thoughts, and the views on In-Lines, as expressed here, mirror my own thoughts.
I'm not down on In-Lines, it appears they have a place as many shooters have taken to them, but for the most part they are a "hoss" of a different color. I don't think they have a place in any season set aside as "primitive", I do think the reason the majority of these rifles have sold is the buyer is trying to get a jump on the real muzzle loaders, to have that little edge should a long shot present it's self.
Most of the folks I know who no longer have or use In-Lines readily admit this. Many others are still in denial.
Russ

RussB,
I think you may be right and wrong on this one. I bought a muzzleloader to extend my hunting time, could'nt have really cared less what it looked like. The state I live in allows a scope with no magnification if you would like to use one. I bought a inline and initially used Pyrodex pellets because it was all very simple, easy to use, easy to load. I discovered, in two range sessions, that the three pellet loads where not for me. Too much in a 6lb 9oz rifle, way too much. I also reverted to the iron sights because it's a pain in the butt to try to clean the primer residue off the scope and rings, not to mention that the scope with zero magnification is as much a hindrance as a help for any precision shooting. I don't see where a inline, loaded with 100grs of powder or less, has any real advantage over a "traditional" muzzleloader. They don't call it a primitive weapons hunt here, it's called muzzleloader season. This is starting to sound like the archery debate.

kciH, I guess what I'm trying to say here is, the hype on In-Lines is as bad, or worse, than the Magnum craze a young fellow goes through in his early years.
Just reading any of the In-Line advertisements gives one the thought that this particular rifle will shoot just as flat, and just as far as any "modern" rifle, it even comes D&T 'd for a scope! Everything about it is suggesting it will do more than a traditional Flint or Percussion rifle, which is not the case.
Once again, don't get me wrong, scopes also have a place in the scheme of things. Especially when ones eye sight is failing. And, of course, you are right. We don't want to get into a "My gun is bigger than your gun", or an Archery debate.
I personally get pleasure from seeing any and all types of guns showing up at the range. It tells me there is still an interest in shooting, and the 2nd Ammendment is still alive and well.
OTOH, it bothers me when someone insists his In-Line is the "Modern man's way of thinking", and 3 pellets will develop energy of cosmic proportions...if it ever hits anything.
Respectfully, Russ

Russ,
I agree with you, a muzzle loader is no "modern rifle" and lilely never will be, that's why you load it from the front. These rifles will develop energy of cosmic proportions, 3 pellets behind a 410gr Great Plaings will develop cosmic energy, but I defy you to shoot mine off the bench enough times to get the peep adjusted with that load. The biggest thing to remember with the inlines, or any front stuffer in general, is that they shoot big, ballistically inneficient slugs that drop like a rock no matter how fast you start them. A 50 cal inline with a max load and a sabot with a lighter handgun bullet will shoot relativley flat, but the majority of the bullets that would be used, short of the specialty ones that are very expensive, will simply not perform on game at those velocities except at maximum range. It's marketing hype and alot of people fall for it. I did, but it didn't take me long to learn that the guns max range with a load I could shoot was more likely 100yds give or take. My quick twist barrel will even shoot patched balls quite well, just so long as you back it down to 60-70gr charge. I'm still working on the conicals, with 100grs and less of powder, 100grs seems to be too much still so I'm working my way down. I'm of the opinion that that big slug, even if the velocity had dropped to 8-900 fps would flatten a whitetail. God willing, I'll find out this fall.

Having both a CVA Hawken with iron sights and a 1:48" twist, and a T/C Black Diamond in-line with a scope attached and 1:28" twist, I'll say there really isn't much difference between them when used for hunting. The scope certainly helps these tired old eyes and is just as quick to use as the iron sights.
Accuracy wise, not much difference up to 100 yds, which is as far as I'm going to shoot a front end BP loader. They're both .50 caliber and seem to work best when the load is kept somewhere around 85 - 90 gr of FFg.

I don't care for Pyrodex - best results are always obtained using standard BP in either rifle. Haven't tried the triple 7 stuff yet - may have to do so.

kdub, kciH...It seems we are all pretty much in agreement on what a muzzle loader is, and does. I have four caplocks at the present, two 50 cals. a 54. and a 58 cal Colt musket.
One of the 50 cals is a 1:66 twist for round ball, the other a 1:48 for conicals. The 54 is a 1:48 twist, and the 1861 Colt is a 1:72 twist. Guess you can see I am partial to round ball and patch shooting.
I think...key word "think"...it may be possible to shoot a heavy, long, conical a bit farther with a little more accuracy using the 58 cal. I say this based on my experience with a 525gr .578 Minie in my musket, albeit with a 1:72 twist.
I recently won Pizza & Beer for the evening by hitting a 5 gallon empty paint bucket 3 consecutive times on the 200 yd. line with this load. This has indeed been my "bragging" rights for the past two months.
I have tried a couple of times to "find the paper" at 200 yds with my other rifles but so far...no luck.
I would never shoot at game that far off, even if I thought I could find my mark. I just feel there is not enough remaining energy, but that is strictly speculation on my part. 55gr of FFFg behind a 525gr minie makes you fully aware of a shot being fired, but it is more of a target load vs hunting load. I will eventually try a few in the 80+ gr range, but that kind of ruins my shooting game for the day. Old age has not been kind to these old shoulders.
Respectfully, Russ

Kdub,
I tried the new 777 last weekend, it lights fine with standard caps in my Black Diamond, but I don't know how it's any better than the standard Pyrodex. The claim that it cleans with just water seems a little dubious to me. I love Hodgdon products, but I think they may be slightly full of it on this account. Besides I usually don't carry much water to the range that I don't intend for drinking. I might try it again this weekend, and I'll likely have plenty of water with me, as it was 103 when I got home from work yesterday, with no relief in sight. When it's over 90 here, you usually have the entire range to yourself, so that's ONE good thing. With the pistol Pyrodex, which seems to be more uniform to me, I can shoot round balls lubed with a Bore Butter patch until I get tired of shooting without having to run a cleaning patch though the barrel.

A question for those of you with more experience than me...is there any reason not to use pistol Pyrodex? I just back the charge off about 10% from what I'd do with other propellants.

I haven't used BP, there is only one dealer in my area who carries it, about a 45 minute drive, and I don't particualrly enjoy doing business with the individual. I've heard a lot of negative things about Pyrodex, is the BP that much better? I don't have a problem lighting the pellets or the loose Pyrodex, and I don't seem to get the "flyers" alot of folks claim come from Pyrodex either. I've only put a little over 500rds through a front stuffer, so I don't know all the in's n out's of it like many who have using them for many years.

One more. I bought some round balls by mistake that where .495, instead of my usual .490. They start just a touch harder, but it's no problem with the T/C muzzle design. Is there any reason not to shoot these?

RussB,
I thought muskets didn't have twist? :)

Thanks,

Steven

kciH -

Speaking off the top of my head and without any expert knowldege on the matter, I'd say shooting Pyrodex Pistol in lieu of Pyrodex Select would be akin to shooting FFFg in place of FFg BP. I've known people who actually shoot the FFFg in their .50 cal. stuffers instead of the FFg. Whether reducing 10% is the proper equation or not, I couldn't say. If everything works, holds together and is accurate, then it must be OK in your particular rifle.

BP has always been more consistent for me and equalivent volume loadings always favor BP in velocity and accuracy. I find the cleanup between the two to be similar in time and effort. My normal routine is to fire 3 loads and swab the bore with saturated patch (Hoppe's BP Bore Solvent) and several drying ones, anyway, either BP or Pyrodex.

If you can get the .495 bullets to engrave and seat, shouldn't be any problem with them. May be a little out of round by the time you've started them and get them seated, but your accuracy will tell you whether they work for your or not. HA!! At least, you'll have one heck of a gas seal!

My loads all use conicals - primarily the Buffalo Bullet 365 - 385 grainers in the CVA and sabot bullets (240 grainers) in the Black Diamond. As I say, accuracy is similar at 100 yds for both of them - basically, 3 MOA. when I do my part. Oh yes - I've got one of those leather /velcro sleeves that fit over the scope body to protect it from the primer powders. First time the scope was mounted, found all the blueing blasted off the bottom of the scope and bare aluminum showing! (Sigh!) I'm one of those guys that has to learn from experience!

RussB,
I thought muskets didn't have twist? :)

Thanks,

Steven [/B][/QUOTE]

Steven, Smooth bore muskets don't have rifling, Rifled muskets do. "Rifles", such as the 1861 Colt, 1858-1863 Springfield, and the Mississippi Rifle do have a twist rate of about 1:72. I have been told the Richmonder has a rate of 1:66 but I've never owned one.
The confussion part to me is when does a Rifle become a Musket...whether smooth bore or rifled?
I'm sure we have smooth bore rifles, I'm equally sure we have smooth bore muskets, so when does a rifle stop being a rifle? and when does a musket stop being a musket?
Is it all dependant on the ignition system?
Can one say a .50 cal with a musket cap ignition system be called a 50 cal "Musket"???
Can one say a .58 cal rifle with a #11 ignition system be called a 58 cal "Rifle" ???
I'm not a "flint" shooter, but I wonder if the flinter's have a musket? Or, are all their guns known as Flintlock Rifles, and Flintlock Pistols.
But in answer to your question Steven, Some muskets have rifleing, and some don't...perhaps by now, I have you as confused as I am about the "Musket".
Respectfully, Russ

There are some cartridge-firing rifles referred to as 'muskets' (and by the maker not just the average person on the street). I've seen this in some of Mike Venturino's colums in Shooting Times where he describes some Winchester lever guns marketed as 'musket' models. So.... I'm guessing that it's more of a means of describing a gun suitable for military use.

One common thread in 'muskets' seems to be that the stocks are full length with hanguards that cover the entire barrel. Naturally, they can be used with bayonets as well.

Hopefully someone can come up with a more complete explanation.

RussB,
I was just kidding. :)

www.websters.com
mus-ket:

1.A smoothbore shoulder gun used from the late 16th through the 18th century.

2.A species of firearm formerly carried by the infantry of an army. It was originally fired by means of a match, or matchlock, for which several mechanical appliances (including the flintlock, and finally the percussion lock) were successively substituted. This arm has been generally superseded by the rifle.

3.a long-barrelled muzzle-loading shoulder gun formerly used by infantrymen

It looks like we're all correct to a certain degree, except Winchester. There is no mention here of any breech loading weapon being called a musket. I, like MikeG, have seen modern rifles referred to ask muskets also.

Seems to me the NRA publication American Rifleman showed an old advertisement on their back page one time that illistrated a Win Mod 95 built for the government with full length stock and called it a "musket".

I believe this was the common name for US military shoulder weapons until the advent of WW I.

It would appear there are no definitive guide lines that properly describe "Musket".
When Mr. Webster admits that "This arm has been generally superseded by the rifle". I personaly feel we would be at least somewhat correct using the term "Muzzle loading Rifle" to describe 'em all. A few of the fellows I shoot with claim there is a very distincitive difference in a Rifle and a Musket, that they can easily tell, even at a distance.
(Of course, as would be expected, these same fellows know who shot President Kennedy.)
It is good to see I'm not the only one who is a bit confused when it comes to this.
For the most part, I am a "lurker" on these boards. Albeit ,I do sit in the front row, and have learned a lot.... Most often through little exchanges such as this thread. I have heard, many times, that there is "no fool quite like an old fool" and I hate to think my age tells on me.
Respectfully, Russ

60gns ffg, patched round ball, lyman great plains, 54cal. It shoots well and has taken a few deer and will take more.Take care and have fun. Swany

> I myself think inlines should be hunted during the regular >rifle season only!

Now now.. not all guys who own in-lines are morons. I migrated to the muzzleloaders after decades with a pointed stick, because I ran out of time to be a good archer. I still hunt like an archer and haven't ever had to shoot at anything farther than 35 yards. I shoot a .54 and those pellets are 60g each so three of them will definately blow yer gas seal and any hope of getting it "on the paper".

I think too many people get down on inlines...the position of the hammer is primarily a cosmetic aspect of the weapon. I got into muzzleloading with a $120 Traditions Deerhunter cap gun, shooting more the "primitive" style and harvesting probably 20 deer with that gun. For a change of pace I got a Traditions Lightning LD inline to play with last year and I enjoy shooting/hunting both ways. I see no need for the division I see everywhere I look in this sport...to each their own.
As for loads, everyone is correct that 150 grains works in FEW guns accurately. I've heard the Kahnke will shoot it well, but never seen it done personally. I know of a couple other guns that have shot it well with a lot of work on the gun and bullet selection. It all comes down to stabilization, and usually you must go to a heavier/longer bullet at those charges. Of course then you end up with the same trajectory as a lighter load/bullet, so why beat up your shoulder?
The adds are almost comical, advertising 2300 fps with a little 195 gr .44 HP bullet. No good if it's off the paper at 75 yds.
For a good chunk of money, Precision Rifle's little .357 195 gr bullet is wonderful. Sub-1" 100 yd groups and 4-5 inch 300 yd groups from my gun. No other company makes a bullet I'd shoot over about 150 yds.
As for whether inlines shouldn't be allowed in primitive season, look at it this way. In southern Michigan you can't use rifles..shotgun/mz/pistol only. A good, old-style frontstuffer is better than a shotgun! (ok one shot, but I never killed a deer I didn't hit the first time).
Someone expressed doubt a few posts back about 777's cleanup with water...this ad isn't a joke. Instead of pumping a dozen or more patches thru my gun to get out the Pyrodex, it only takes 4-5 hot water patches now.

.440 round ball, 70 grains real black powder = venison on the plate every time I pull the trigger. I've used a half stock Ohio rifle I built in 1981, since that year, using a rebuilt antique Biddle lock, and a 1 in 56 barrel I got from Numrich Arms, and a pretty slab of curly Black Walnut. It likes natural tallow for patch lube. State of the art for 1840!!!!
100 yards or a bit more, no problem. If I ever got out west, it handles REAL conicals with 90 grains fff just fine. And, the good part, it looks like a muzzleloader, it smokes like a muzzleloader, and smells like a muzzleloader. First deer shot with it went down so fast I though I'd missed it. Ball entered base of neck on right, straight on to stop just under skin in left shoulder. Never had to track one more than 50 or 60 yards. Accuracy is good enough to bark squirrels.
I can't think of one good reason why I need an inline. I already have a great Swede Mauser. Fake black powder works fine if you can light it every time, or almost, but I can't. I can't deal with the misfire/hangfire rate. If I can't get the real stuff, I will start leaching nitrate from the chicken coop dirt. By the way, wait until some fool loads Bullseye in one of the new smokeless muzzleloaders. WMD waiting to happen.