In general what causes more overal dammage? From a home defence stand point there is the age old arguement between birdshot and buckshot. What if you lived where your neighbors where a long distance from you and you lived alone. No chance at hurting anybody but the badguy, which would you choose and why slugs or buck?

Buckshot. Better for close range. It gives a bigger pattern and at self defense ranges.

Buckshot would be the best choice.

There are varying theories, but the one that is being taught in many tactical schools is the idea of zones.

This is from an article I downloaded years ago that is no longer on the net as far as I can tell. It was from a guy who had been to a tactical shotgun class, and these were his class notes:

Zones and Patterning
• The area around the shooter is best thought of as being divided into a series of concentric circles centered on the shooter. When buckshot is used, the body of shot expands as it leaves the muzzle. In order to shoot buckshot reliably, each shotgun and barrel combination must be patterned at different ranges. This will let the shooter know how the weapon will act at different ranges and when slugs should be used.
• If one type of shot does not pattern effectively, try other brands or loads.
• The traditional wisdom of one inch spread per yard from the muzzle cannot be relied upon. This is especially true with the Vang Comp system.
• Each of the zones are somewhat arbitrary. An expert shooter or a Vang comped barrel can push the zones out significantly so that buckshot can be used at longer ranges with good accuracy and power.

A Zone
• Muzzle to + 7 yards.
• There is very little shot spread in this zone. The shot body will basically perform as a large pre-fragmented round.
• Aim must be true as the shot pattern has not opened up to compensate for aiming error. This is contrary to the myth of not needing to aim a shotgun indoors.

B Zone
• + 7 yards to + 25 yards.
• Optimum shot spread is at + 20 yards.
• This is the optimum shot pattern spread zone. The pattern effect will compensate for some aiming error, so aim is not as critical.

C Zone
• + 25 yards to .
• Buckshot is too widely dispersed to be effective and has lost a significant amount of power.
• A slug is required for an effective hit.

Patterning
• Optimum spread is usually between 15 and 20 yards.
• At 25 yards a large hole develops in the center of the shot pattern with little or no shot.
• At 45 yards the pattern is approximately 4 to 6 feet across.
• Shoot several rounds at each of the range band limits, as well as some at intermediate distances. Note the spread of the pattern as well as the trajectory and drop from point of aim.
• Also note the trajectory of slugs at 15, 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards. If accuracy is reliable without an extreme hold at this range, pattern slugs at 125 and 150 yards.
• A range card can be affixed to the buttstock similar to those used for rifles. This will allow for rapid indexing of ballistic information.
• If the patterns are not acceptable change the load or manufacturer. This will often lead to better results.

NOTE: The Vang Comp System is a modification that can be done to a shotgun that takes a smoothbore and essentially bores it out and makes a forcing cone inside that works like a modified cylinder choke. They also add ports that reduce muzzle jump. It is very effective with tactical reduced recoil ammo.

I've experimented/tested the Tap double-0 buckshot with 9 .33" pellets at various yardage. This ammunition is designed for self definse and to hold a tighter pattern for performance at longer diatances. And tests shows it works as advertised. However, it does offer some advantage, even at 7 yards with a 3 to 4 inch pattern at that range, spreading out to 8/11 inches at 15 yards. So, yes, close range certainly doesn't offer wide dispersement, but somewhat better than a single slug. And beyond 7 yards, a noticable advantage for self-defense usage (my opinion).

Dan

The "A" area of the target used is 8" by 11".

You have an excellent point. For most defensive uses the range is going to be less than 7 yards (probably closer to 7 feet statistically!)

The zone system is to show the relation of patterns to distance, and if the gun fight is outside it plays a much larger role. It also shows that at very close distance the need for careful aim.

Bottom line.
Inside the house the shooting is inside the 7 yd zone. Thus either one MUST be aimed. It is also proven, in actual shootings, a properly placed slug will 'stop' the fight quicker than the buck.
If you do not have to worry about over penatration the slug would be my choise.:)

Certainly shot placement is the most critical element, rather buck shot or slug. My house is 44' internal length and I sure hope to catch them in the kitchen before they get to the bedroom, plus I do have to worry about neighbors, so 00 buckshot is my choice. Nine .33" pellets at 1100 to 1200 fps should stop someone, and even less pellets is better than a miss. The reason I belabor that point is the literature indicates trained police hit their inside the building targets 13 of 100 shots, so I want evey "opportunity" to put some lead on the target. And if necessary, my pump gives me a quick second shot.

My only experience at using the buck shot came from three rough looking men beating on my trailer door in Florida, and when told "no, you can't use the phone" the pulled two pistols. The sight of the shotgun caused them to run, but continue to fire while retreating and my target (the car) was 20 yards away (didn't shoot at the men, just the car before they got there....the police didn't have any trouble identifying the car and men). So I'm a little prejudiced, I don't want to count on just 7 yards or less and I can vouch for the difficulty in placing your shot when people are shooting at you.

Dan

Well I have crossed that bridge MANY years ago. It scars me when I think how those times didn't get me all fired up!!:eek:
If you would have had to defend your self AFTER the bandits got into the car your buck shot would be useless. Keep some slugs handy!

I worked as a correctional officer in a state prison for 8 years. Guess what they issued us for our shotguns? Buckshot.

Jim,

You're certainly correct about the slug/car versus buckshot/car (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot5.htm shows actual test). I have to admit I load my Scattergun Technologies 12 gauge with two 00, one slug, two 00 and one slug. Sure hope I never have to get to the third round. The Florida incident ended after the first shot into the car as they quickened their pace considerably and quick shooting to help speed their retreat. As you might guess, running and shooting over their shoulders put the neightbors at a much high risk than me, they didn't even hit the trailer, which is fine with me as my wife was in the front bed room and the trailer doesn't offer much protection.

That statistic about the police only hitting 13% of their shots. That due mostly to shooting with a handgun and using a technique that requires like 12 things to remember. You have to TRAIN-TRAIN-TRAIN to be effective doing that. Many police are moving to a point-shoot or turret-shoot system that increases the likelihood of hitting considerably.

If you have a shoulder stock on your shotgun, and a good set of rifle sights or better a 'ghost ring' sight, your really improve your chances of hitting your intended target - whether you decide on buck or slug. I have ammo on my gun (sidesaddle) and a couple are slugs. The rest are all buckshot. Terminal ballistics of buckshot at close range is devastating. Multiple projectiles moving thru tissue simultaneously has a "blender" effect and is greater than the sum of individual shots.

For A and B zone - Buckshot by a mile! Unless of course you need to shoot through an obstacle, then slug.

So becides the whats better for HD thing what causes greater trauma? A slug is a big ole hole!! However Buckshot seams like it whould have a greater chance of hitting something vital. But I am wandering about overall distruction.

You may want to check out some of the slugs James Gates offers. Pretty potent stuff.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/

:cool:A side saddle is manatory on a defense shot gun!;)

I have (and will) use buckshot for some deer hunting. But slugs, even from a typical smooth bore, do have better range.

IF the game is most likely to be moving and the cover is very tight/close so that range isn't going to be more than 25-35yards, buckshot can certainly do the trick just fine. Won't even make a firm recommendation to buckshot size other than to test EVERYTHING you can lay your hands on and go with the one that gives a nice, tight, EVEN pattern (buckshot tends to "clump" and give uneven patterns). IF that best load turns out to be "O", "OO", or "OOO", should be fine. I've had one barrel that seemed to love #1 buck...hard to find, but it worked well (while I would prefer larger sized buckshot, the barrel didn't, so you go with what the gun tells you it wants).

Yeah mine patterns nicely at 7 yards. In the attached photo a "hostage scenario". The upper plate is the BG and the lower is the hostage. 2 Federal low-recoil slugs on the left and one 00 low recoil on the right. My barrel was modified with the Vang Comp system. I don't know if I could do this, but it's good to know the gun can.

Hey all,
Just read this thread & will add my two cents !!

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j161/A-PAPI/IMG_0128.jpg
Vangcomp Remington 870 Police Mag 3 " ; Cylinder Bore Barrel.

Polishing/ Honing Choke : Flex-Hone Products: http://www.brushresearch.com/brush-types.php?c1=4
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j161/A-PAPI/IMG_1172_edited.jpg
Dixie Slug Terminator : .730 gr. / Bullet
Dixie Slug Predator : 600 gr. / Bullet ( no longer in production )
Dixie Slug Tusker : 600 gr. / Bullet
Winchester : 1 oz / Slug

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j161/A-PAPI/IMG_1183_edited.jpg

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j161/A-PAPI/IMG_1186_edited.jpg
16.6 Yards ( 50 feet ) : Target ; 8 inch dia. black bull.
Dixe " Tri-Ball II "
Dixie " Tusker "
http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

All will penetrate better than any , off the shelf , " 12. ga. " product , currently available to the general public..:eek:

p.s: I did have to " POLISH / OPEN " up the choke a bit , to accomodate the Dixe " TUSKERS : .727 " to a " TIGHT SLIP FIT " . !

PAPI