I am going to buy a Puma XT or a Puma Scout...but don't know the difference except that the Scout comes with a scope and cheek rest and the XP does not come in the .454.
My goal is to be able to shoot accurately at 200-300 yds....which I have the right hunting grounds for where I deer hunt in fields surrounded by woods.
I'm leaning towards the 454 scout...but should I be looking at a different cal.?
I appreciate any help as this is a very expensive gun for my budget and I can only buy 1 carbine rifle for my Indiana whitetail hunting.
Carbines have just became legal and in previous years I have used a Marlin Deerslay 12 guage bolt action with great 100 yd. accuracy...but the deer keep seeing me come through the open field and they always catch on.

I don't know anything about them myself but here is a thread about a man who hasn't been able to get his fixed for six months. http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=364555#post364555

The .454 is NOT a 200 - 300 yard Deer Cartridge. It's best performance is under 100 yards, for the average Hunter. If you want a longer range rifle then I suggest either a .270 or .30-06 or another one in the same family.

Indiana legal is as follows: .357 .38-40 .41mag .41special .44-40Win
.454Cassull .458Socom .480Ruger .475Linbaugh
.50Action Express .500S&W

>My goal is to be able to shoot accurately at 200-300 yds

My best suggestion -- choose a different rifle. Nothing at all wrong with the Pumas, but they are not chambered in any cartridge suitable for that sort of range. A good choice would be a Marlin XLR with LeverEvolution ammo, a better choice would be a Browning BLR in any of its chamberings.

Indiana legal is as follows: .357 .38-40 .41mag .41special .44-40Win
.454Cassull .458Socom .480Ruger .475Linbaugh
.50Action Express .500S&W

You're correct in what Indiana will allow in the way of rifles for Deer Hunting. I should know as I was the one that kept after the IDNR to legalize these PCR's ever since l987! Then the NCR voted to allow the PCR to be used for Hunting Deer in Indiana. This is after I introduce the idea of legalizing PCR use in Indiana, on two Indiana Hunting Forums. Lots of Hunters were infavor but there were some that opposed it. BUT it passed!!:) I since moved to Kentucky and I can use any centerfire rifle here.

I know very little about rifles....I grew up in shotgun only. What would any of you buy (Indiana legal) and what would your expectations be?

I know very little about rifles....I grew up in shotgun only. What would any of you buy (Indiana legal) and what would your expectations be?

Well for the average Hoosier Deer Hunter; I think he/she should consider getting a Muzzle Loader, PCR (Pistol Cartridge Rifle) in .44 Magnum, and there is always the sabot shotgun slug guns. These have rifled barrels and shoot just as accurate & affective, as a .44 Magnum load. The ONLY difference is the .44 Magnum (or any other PCR load) can be reloaded and the cost is much less than buying 5 sabot loads. A box of 50 .44 Magnum shells cost, on average, around $25 to $30, while shotgun sabots usually sell for $15 per "FIVE" shells. Also, reloading shotgun sabots isn't anymore cheaper than just buying the factory rounds.

No disrespect to anyone but a 454 out of a puma rifle is more than capable of killing deer at 300 yards. However most shooters are not. I have one in 45 colt with irons if you want to shoot over 100yds I would buy the scout scope model and practice. With a lot of practice you will be able to determine your max effective range.

Russ

No disrespect to anyone but a 454 out of a puma rifle is more than capable of killing deer at 300 yards. However most shooters are not. I have one in 45 colt with irons if you want to shoot over 100yds I would buy the scout scope model and practice. With a lot of practice you will be able to determine your max effective range.

Russ

Due to the flat or rounded bullet; any of the pistol rounds would not be a good choice for 300 yard shots on Deer. Their rounded or flat none shape would loose velocity very rapidly. They do (Hornady) make spitzer bullets, and these "might" reach out to 200 yards; but again I advise all to keep their shots under 100 yards to avoid wounding a Deer.

If I could accurately place my 355gr WLNGC's @ 300 yards out of my 20" Puma M92 in 454 Casull that bullet would completely penetrate a deer and kill it.

At issue is can I place the shot as of now with only iron sights absolutely not.

I look at the velocities of a 454 Casull out of a rifle the same way as I look at a 45-70 from a rifle except that I would be shooting heavier bullets out of the 45-70.

Example velocities from my 454 are comparable to the 45-70's I listed below.

240gr 454 = 2300fps - 300gr 45-70 = 2250fps
300gr 454 = 1950fps - 400gr 45-70 = 1950fps
355gr 454 = 1860fps - 430gr - 450gr 45-70 = 1850 - 1900fps
405gr 454 = 1650fps - 525gr - 550gr 45-70 = 1600 - 1650fps

Scott if I was you I'd think about a long barreled TC encore in 454, even better the 460 s&w. Its easy to mount a scope too and have plenty of accuracy. With a scope like the burris(check out the pentax also) that has the ballistic plex a 300yd shot would not be hard with practice. This type of scope(and rangefinder) in 3x9 on my ar-15 allows me to hit balloons at 500yds on a calm day with ease. I know you were asking about a lever in a pistol caliber but lots of times a 300yd shot is too much because of poor accuracy and poor trajectory at that range. Personally if you would have set your limit at 200yds I would have said get the 454 puma. After 150yds a pistol bullet takes a dive. I have a scoped 45colt win trapper(loaded real hot) that rings a 6'' gong at 200yds with ease but I set my hunting range at 150yds because of my zero. I hate holding over and guessing at big game, I like to hold dead on and pull the trigger. All of this is talk is just my limited experience and opinion. But I doubt anyone would disagree a long barreled Encore in the 460 s&w with good scope wouldn't be a maximum range rifle in a pistol caliber. Dave

Regardless of barrel length, or the ability of mounting a scope on the rifle; the fact remains that these pistol cartridges, are still for 100 yards or less for hunting Deer.

Davers, I understand your concern but even my scoped 16" barrelled trapper in 45colt(loaded stout) is a 150yd hunting rifle, this I know for a fact. A 460 s&w out of a 10" pistol barrel is another 500fps faster than my trapper. Now imagine a 26" barreled 460 instead of 10". A ten inch barrel shots a 300gr bullet at 2000fps, add sixteen more inches of barrel and just think what kind of velocity you would get. Personally I don't think of the 460 s&w a pistol cartridge its a better rifle cartridge because of its col and pressures its loaded too. Have you picked up one of those s&w pistols, I believe its heavier than my trapper !! Folks like hornady and corbon makes some outstanding loads for this round but they will cost you, a fellow would be well served by handloading for this round. Scott asked about a rifle that would get him to 300yds and I believe this would get him there maybe a little more with the right setup and a good bit of practice. Dave

I think the 454 out of a rifle is about the same as a 460 out of a handgun. Bullet drop and wind drift will always be a problem but I am sure if you can hit your target any deer will be dead at 300 yards. If it were me I think 200 yards would be my limit with a lot of practice. Check out this article it is about hot loaded 45 colts but the 454 would do the same.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Russ

Longer barrels give the powder more time to work on propelling the bullet. For this reason longer barrels generally provide higher velocities, everything else being equal. As the bullet moves down the bore, however, the propellant's gas pressure behind it diminishes. Given a long enough barrel, there will eventually be a point in which the force of the air pressure in front of the bullet will equal the force of the gas pressure behind it. At this point, the velocity of the bullet will start to decrease.

Yeah, I understand certain cartridges(22lr and weak pistol rounds) will lose velocity after about 16" of barrel. But even a stout 45colt load will show a velocity increase from a 16" to 20" barrel, not a big one but it is there. Now lets say we take the 45colt and add a 100% increase in powder and I promise, you will gain velocity all the way through a 26" barrel. A 460 s&w is a 100% increase in powder over a 45colt(ruger only loads)with powder like hodgden's lil'gun. Like I said before this cartridge is more of a rifle than a pistol cartridge. My point of all this gabberjaw'in is not to try and make myself look smart(Lord knows I need a lot of help in that department), I guess I'm trying to say Scott might want to look at something a little more specialized than a 454 in a leveraction for 300yd shots(but it can be done) and I believe a long barreled Encore 460 s&w will get him there with more power and accuracy. Dave

Regardless of barrel length, or the ability of mounting a scope on the rifle; the fact remains that these pistol cartridges, are still for 100 yards or less for hunting Deer.

Nonsense! Do you realize that the bullets from the rifle will be faster at 100 yards when fired from the rifle, than at the muzzle if fired from a handgun?

If a (pick caliber here, .357, .41 mag, .44 mag., .45 Colt, .454, etc.) could be considered effective at the muzzle, then explain how it loses it's effectiveness out of the rifle at 100 yards?

My .45 Colt Marlin ran 1700fps+ with a 24" barrel and a 300 grain bullet. That was almost 500fps faster than the same loads out of a Blackhawk! It is easy enough to look up the ballistic tables and see how fast they are going downrange and what the bullet drop is, etc. Assume a minimum of 300fps increase in velocity for any cartridge loaded to at least 30,000 CUP when going from the handgun to the rifle. Figure a B.C. of about .2 for typical heavy, hard cast bullets and just grab any reloading manual and look at the tables in the back.

Sight in for 2" high at 100 yards, this will be dead-on at about 125 yards for any of the cartridges listed above, and a few inches low at 150. That's an easy 150 yard point blank range and just as effective as handgun hunting to say 50 yards with the same cartridge in a revolver.

If a person can't hit a deer at 150 yards due to issues with the sights or accuracy, then that is another problem. But it is not a limitation of the cartridge or arm.

The .454, .460 S&W, et al, flatten the trajectory out even more and extend the range. How much I can't say as I have not chronographed any of those rounds from a rifle.

To repeat: If you can to do it at 50 yards with a handgun, you can do the same thing at 150 yards with a rifle, easily.

Nonsense! Do you realize that the bullets from the rifle will be faster at 100 yards when fired from the rifle, than at the muzzle if fired from a handgun?

One can't compare rifle bullets with those designed for traditional pistols. Rifle bullets (most) are spitzer types more pointed than round or flat nosed bullets for pistols. However if you feel like you can humanely bring down a Deer at 300 yards, with a pistol round, then go for it. Myself; I would never attempt such a shot.

Yes, and was I addressing the 300 yard shot? Of course not, see my post again.

Please explain to us why a pistol-cartridge carbine can't be used past 100 yards.

Yes, and was I addressing the 300 yard shot? Of course not, see my post again.

Please explain to us why a pistol-cartridge carbine can't be used past 100 yards.

Of course; The reason I don't recommend the use of pistol rounds beyond 100 yards is that most of the Hunters aren't experts. I am quite certain you're correct inthat a bullet from a .454 or .44 Magnum will kill a Deer beyond 100 yards, if they are hit in the right place. The average Hunter, with only a few days of pratice, will most likely wound whatever he hits at extreme ranges beyond 100 yards. Most of the writers and gun experts all agree that pistol rounds are better suited for hunting < 100 yards, by the average Hunter.

If you're set on a 300 yard shot, I'd also recommend something specifically capable, in one way or another, of reliably using Hornady's new rubber-nosed pointed bullets for these handgun cartridges. You'll need all you can get to even get pie-plate sized groups at that range. I've just begun trying to find an accurate load for my Marlin 1894 in .41 Magnum, and it's shaping up to be a 50 yard gun, at least in my hands, but that might just be my gun or my scope.

Davers
All I got to say is -don't believe everything you read or hear from gun rag writers!! I own a Puma 454 Casull! My 240 gr XTP Mag load goes over 2300 fps and is more then capable to kill a deer out to 175 yds. It out shines a 30-30 by quite a bit !! Now I don't think you'd say a 30-30 can't be used past 100 yds? This load also gives better performance then a 45-70 you going to say it can't be used passed 100yds?

Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 2315 fps 2856 fpe
25 yds -0.20 in 2199 fps 2577 fpe
50 yds 0.66 in 2087 fps 2320 fpe
75 yds 1.01 in 1977 fps 2083 fpe
100 yds 0.83 in 1871 fps 1865 fpe
125 yds 0.00 in 1769 fps 1668 fpe
150 yds -1.55 in 1672 fps 1490 fpe
175 yds -3.85 in 1579 fps 1328 fpe
200 yds -7.00 in 1490 fps 1183 fpe

Thank you all for your help, input, and opinions...I will weigh it all considerably. In sixteen years of hunting I have never not retreived my deer within 2 hours of the shot...I don't plan on changing that. I only take shots that I know I'm capable of hitting due to time at the range.....and I assure you I don't use the benches because the benches aren't there when I'm hunting. I hit a 3 inch group at 100 yards with a mild load in my slugmaster while on one knee and have shot at a 150 yard target only on one occasion and kept it withing 6 inches with the same mild load. I will most likely buy the Puma dependant upon some questions in which I am waiting for their response but I certainly look forward to putting this gun to the test.

Of course; The reason I don't recommend the use of pistol rounds beyond 100 yards is that most of the Hunters aren't experts. I am quite certain you're correct inthat a bullet from a .454 or .44 Magnum will kill a Deer beyond 100 yards, if they are hit in the right place. The average Hunter, with only a few days of pratice, will most likely wound whatever he hits at extreme ranges beyond 100 yards. Most of the writers and gun experts all agree that pistol rounds are better suited for hunting < 100 yards, by the average Hunter.

Then this is a question of marksmanship, and no hunter should be shooting beyond 100 yards, with anything, from a round ball musket to a .270 Win, correct?

The gun experts who say that a pistol cartridge carbine should not be used to shoot a deer beyond 100 yards, either have not used one or cannot do math and look up a trajectory table. In other words, they are not in the least bit experts at anything useful to us. It is unfortunate that such things are repeated in print and misinformation is spread to the shooting public.

Given that the pistol cartridge carbine has a sufficiently flat trajectory to eliminate holdover to at least 150 yards, I do not see how any of them have a leg to stand on. If you accept the premise that, say, a .44 mag revolver can kill at deer with a lung shot at powder-burn rang, then it seems impossible to say that the same bullet will be any less lethal at 100 yards when fired from the rifle. Or if the .44 mag revolver can kill a deer at 50 yards, then the rifle can do it at 150, etc.

Then this is a question of marksmanship, and no hunter should be shooting beyond 100 yards, with anything, from a round ball musket to a .270 Win, correct?

The gun experts who say that a pistol cartridge carbine should not be used to shoot a deer beyond 100 yards, either have not used one or cannot do math and look up a trajectory table. In other words, they are not in the least bit experts at anything useful to us. It is unfortunate that such things are repeated in print and misinformation is spread to the shooting public.

Given that the pistol cartridge carbine has a sufficiently flat trajectory to eliminate holdover to at least 150 yards, I do not see how any of them have a leg to stand on. If you accept the premise that, say, a .44 mag revolver can kill at deer with a lung shot at powder-burn rang, then it seems impossible to say that the same bullet will be any less lethal at 100 yards when fired from the rifle. Or if the .44 mag revolver can kill a deer at 50 yards, then the rifle can do it at 150, etc.

Mike, "One More Time"....A rifle firing pistol rounds is NOT a 300 yard weapon! Although you might disagree with the many Gun Writers & experienced shooters, in this field; this fact remains. I haven't the slighest idea, where you live (what state) but where I live we can use the traditional longer ranged rifles like the .270 for hunting Deer. I've shot several Deer at ranges from 100 to 378 yards one shot did the job. I've also used my Ruger Model 77/.44 Magnum bolt action rifle with a Leupold 2-7 power scope, and have taken several Deer at ranges averaging 75 yards. The weight & shape of the .44 Magnum bullet, along with the velocity some 1,750 FPS suggest that out past 100 to 150 yards the rainbow trajectory, of the .44 Magnum, make 100 yard + shots very risky and uncertain. I agree with the many experts & writers on this issue of the maximum hunting ranges of these pistol rounds fired from a rifle. If you want to avoid problems of wounding Deer then I strongly suggest you not take any shots past 100 yards, OR get a more powerful rifle like a .270 Winchester.

Trajectory is the key to understanding why the .454 and similar cartridges are not the best for 300 yard shooting. Let's say you have a 260 gr. bullet moving out at 1800 fps. If you zero at 200 yards, you'll be 6 to 7 inches high at 100 -- a pretty good recipe for over-shooting at that range, highly inconvenient but not impossble to deal with. But at 300 yards, you're going to be 26-27 inches low. You'll have the power -- the bullet will still be moving around 1200 fps with energy approaching 800 ft-lbs. True -- hold over two feet, and you've got him (assuming a good accurate rifle and no wind whatsoever). But, are you SURE of the range? If it's actually 275 you're going to shoot 10 inches high, and if it's 325 you're going to be 10" low. And, are you SURE you're actually holding 26 inches high? Maybe what is looking like 26 inches high to you is only 18 -- or maybe it's 36.

Here we see the advantage of flat-shooting rifle cartridges. It is not their power that makes them superior for longrange shooting. It is the fact that they remove a significant amount of potential shooter error as a factor. Would I try such a shot at 300 yards with something like a .454? Sure, if the circumstances were extraordinary. But it would not make good sense to choose such a rifle if I knew that the majority of my shots would be at such ranges.

Trajectory is the key to understanding why the .454 and similar cartridges are not the best for 300 yard shooting. Let's say you have a 260 gr. bullet moving out at 1800 fps. If you zero at 200 yards, you'll be 6 to 7 inches high at 100 -- a pretty good recipe for over-shooting at that range, highly inconvenient but not impossble to deal with. But at 300 yards, you're going to be 26-27 inches low. You'll have the power -- the bullet will still be moving around 1200 fps with energy approaching 800 ft-lbs. True -- hold over two feet, and you've got him (assuming a good accurate rifle and no wind whatsoever). But, are you SURE of the range? If it's actually 275 you're going to shoot 10 inches high, and if it's 325 you're going to be 10" low. And, are you SURE you're actually holding 26 inches high? Maybe what is looking like 26 inches high to you is only 18 -- or maybe it's 36.

Here we see the advantage of flat-shooting rifle cartridges. It is not their power that makes them superior for longrange shooting. It is the fact that they remove a significant amount of potential shooter error as a factor. Would I try such a shot at 300 yards with something like a .454? Sure, if the circumstances were extraordinary. But it would not make good sense to choose such a rifle if I knew that the majority of my shots would be at such ranges.

GREAT POST! You're very correct here!

The funny thing about this thread I think there is more agreement than disagreement. I think we all would agree that any bottle neck cartridge shooting a bullet around 3000FPS would be a better choice at 300 yards.
Scottgray does not have that choice. He is limited to a strait wall case.
Gunnut45/454 shows that he can hold point blank to 175 yards.
Can't we then agree that if the bullet travel no more that 4" above and below the line of sight when the energy is above 1000fp(meaningless #) of energy that it is at least a 175 yard cartridge.
If he holds at the top of the back he extends it to 200 yards.
Over 200 would be risky but some are capable, most are not. It is up to Scottgray to make that call not me or any other expert.

Good discussion,

Russ:D

Mike, "One More Time"....A rifle firing pistol rounds is NOT a 300 yard weapon! Although you might disagree with the many Gun Writers & experienced shooters, in this field; this fact remains. I haven't the slighest idea, where you live (what state) but where I live we can use the traditional longer ranged rifles like the .270 for hunting Deer. I've shot several Deer at ranges from 100 to 378 yards one shot did the job. I've also used my Ruger Model 77/.44 Magnum bolt action rifle with a Leupold 2-7 power scope, and have taken several Deer at ranges averaging 75 yards. The weight & shape of the .44 Magnum bullet, along with the velocity some 1,750 FPS suggest that out past 100 to 150 yards the rainbow trajectory, of the .44 Magnum, make 100 yard + shots very risky and uncertain. I agree with the many experts & writers on this issue of the maximum hunting ranges of these pistol rounds fired from a rifle. If you want to avoid problems of wounding Deer then I strongly suggest you not take any shots past 100 yards, OR get a more powerful rifle like a .270 Winchester.

And "one more time".... I never said these were 300 yard guns. Ever! You may in fact be confusing my post with someone else. If I said they were effective 300 yard hunting guns please let me know where.

If you choose to restrict your .44 mag rifle to 100 yards and give up 50 yards of effective range, that is up to you. However it is a mistake, easily proven, to tell everyone else that they are also limited to 100 yards. One more time, I never encouraged people to shoot beyond 150 yards, did I?

Again, every one of my posts in this thread is to state that the pistol-cartridge carbines are legitimate 150 yard guns, in terms of trajectory and bullet performance. Truth be told, a bit of holdover and another 25 yards isn't out of the question.

The "300 yard" figure is misleading even with traditional rifle cartridges. Most of them will start needing a bit of holdover at 300 yards, depending on the sights, 100 yard zero, etc.

I'm afraid you've been duped by so-called "experts" who are hunting with their typewriters.

Last time, this discussion is for the effectiveness of these cartridges, in rifles, in the 100 yard to 150 yard range. I don't know how to make it any more clearer than that.

I am certain that the gun writers, you refer to, know a great deal more than you or I do. I "Googled" some information on the .44 Magnum and almost all say about the same:

The limiting factor is the bullet's trajectory; the best hunting bullets are heavy, thus, relatively slow, meaning a significant drop-out of trajectory at ranges beyond 100 yards (90m); with a 50-yard zero, drop-out at 100 yards is about 2 inches (5cm), and drop-out at 150 yards (135m) is more than 8 inches (20cm); with a 100-yard zero, drop-out at 150 yards is more than 6 inches (15cm). [20] Experts recommend limiting hunting ranges to 100 yards (90m) when shooting .44 Magnum cartridges, less if practical accuracy requires it.

Davers,
Oct 2008 "Shooting Times" Dick Metcalf has an article, The 100 yard rule. If you read it near the end he says the 44mag out of a revolver is a 50yrd gun by energy 900ft-lbs. If you want to increase your range to 200 yards move up to a 460 S&W out of a revolver.
It would seem that Mr. Metcalf ( an Expert) believes shooting a revolver at 200 yards with the right load is possible.
I think a 454 out of a rifle and a 460 out of a handgun are very close to the same.
Sorry I had to jab you a little about the expert thing.:)

Russ

Davers regardless of what all the experts say my lowly 45colt trapper is a good 150yd rifle. Notice I didn't say marginal !! It has the accuracy and power to be a good 200yd rifle but not the trajectory. So go ahead and google the experts some more and back your opinion. It seems like Scott has already decided to get a 454 puma, with a bit of practice he will do what the experts say is next to impossible. Dave

Davers,
Oct 2008 "Shooting Times" Dick Metcalf has an article, The 100 yard rule. If you read it near the end he says the 44mag out of a revolver is a 50yrd gun by energy 900ft-lbs. If you want to increase your range to 200 yards move up to a 460 S&W out of a revolver.
It would seem that Mr. Metcalf ( an Expert) believes shooting a revolver at 200 yards with the right load is possible.
I think a 454 out of a rifle and a 460 out of a handgun are very close to the same.
Sorry I had to jab you a little about the expert thing.:)

Russ

No problem, Russ, :) If these guys want to use their PCR's for 150 yards and beyond then it's their choice. Personally I think cartridges, in the .44 Magnum power range, should be used < 150 yards. I have no experience with the .454 or even the .460 S&W, so I am uncertain how they would stack up to the .44 Magnum.

I am certain that the gun writers, you refer to, know a great deal more than you or I do. I "Googled" some information on the .44 Magnum and almost all say about the same:

The limiting factor is the bullet's trajectory; the best hunting bullets are heavy, thus, relatively slow, meaning a significant drop-out of trajectory at ranges beyond 100 yards (90m); with a 50-yard zero, drop-out at 100 yards is about 2 inches (5cm), and drop-out at 150 yards (135m) is more than 8 inches (20cm); with a 100-yard zero, drop-out at 150 yards is more than 6 inches (15cm). [20] Experts recommend limiting hunting ranges to 100 yards (90m) when shooting .44 Magnum cartridges, less if practical accuracy requires it.

Yes, this is the type of comparison made where the deck is stacked in a particular way to "prove" some point (usually to sell a competing product). I forget what the exact term is but it is a well-known advertising gimmick which unfortunately people fall for all the time.

See, the issue is that you don't sight hunting rifles in at 50 yards, unless you want to artificially change their useful range, and handicap them so. I take it you don't have a reloading manual with trajectory tables? For an exercise, find an online calculator (I think there may be one on the Beartooth site) and put in a 130gr. .270 bullet at say 3,000 fps, figure a B.C. of about .400 - .450.

Try once with a zero range of 50 yards, and a second time with a zero range of 200 yards, and see how much holdover is necessary at 300 yards with the two?

The information needed to resolve this is, ironically, in the misleading comparison you quoted. Raise the point of impact until the 100 yard trajectory is 2" up instead of 2" down. That's 4 MOA, or nearly so, and then guess what, the impact at 150 yards is also up 4 MOA, which at that distance is about 6".

So in fact, according to that article, the .44 mag rifle is possibly even flatter shooting than what I estimated, and perhaps a slightly longer range proposition than even I suggested.

OK here is one:
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj_basic/traj_basic.html

Let's go back to the .270, pick a 130gr. Hornady Spire Point. Assume muzzle velocity about 3,000fps.

If we sight in at 50 yards, the drop at 300 is about 11 inches.

If we sight in at 200 yards, the drop at 300 is about 7 inches. Not bad but we can improve on this.

If we sight in at 250 yards, the mid-range trajectory is about 3" high, and the drop at 300 yards is only about 4". That is pretty useful and makes the .270 a reasonable choice for shots to that range, I think we can agree.

See how a comparison can be twisted to suit the means of the writer? We could go on and on about how a .270 with a 50 yard zero is unsuitable for 300 yard hunting, but generally it would be understood that this is a nonsensical comparison.

So, getting back to the .44 mag in a rifle. Try a couple of different .44 bullets, but generally 300gr. bullets will have a B.C. of about .2 and in a rifle you should see 1500fps or so. I put in the Sierra 300gr. bullet because it is already in that database.

With a 125 yard zero, we're just about 2" high at 100, and about 4" low at 150. 175 yards is now 9" low.

The other useful information from the chart is, the bullet from the rifle is still going over 1200fps at 125 yards - typical muzzle velocity for a revolver!

It is just flat-out silly, to say that we can't hit a deer at 125 yards, with a gun that is sighted in at that range, with a 300 grain bullet traveling at 1200fps. I sure would like to see some expert gun writers explain that!

After playing with the calculator even more, a 240-250gr. bullet can flatten the trajectory further, with a useful point-blank range crowding 175 yards. While I wouldn't try that with a typical JHP, being afraid of bullet blow-up at short range, that would not be a problem with a good hard cast bullet. And the lighter bullet keeps 1200+ fps to almost 200 yards, certainly not something a typical deer would walk away from.

Food for thought!

Thanks MikeG great info. The pistol cartridges in a rifle sure changes things. It's funny in PA after 30 years of hunting I have killed three deer over 100 yards so for me at least a 150 gun will work 99% of the time. But it is nice to know what your gun can do at the longer ranges.
Thanks,

Russ

After playing with the calculator even more, a 240-250gr. bullet can flatten the trajectory further, with a useful point-blank range crowding 175 yards. While I wouldn't try that with a typical JHP, being afraid of bullet blow-up at short range, that would not be a problem with a good hard cast bullet. And the lighter bullet keeps 1200+ fps to almost 200 yards, certainly not something a typical deer would walk away from.

Food for thought!

Okay, Mike. You shoot your Deer at 150 to 300 yards if you like, with your .44 Magnum or what ever PCR you own. Me, I wouldn't even think of doing so. If I need more range I'll use either my .270 or .308, both scoped sighted.

Okay, Mike. You shoot your Deer at 150 to 300 yards if you like, with your .44 Magnum or what ever PCR you own. Me, I wouldn't even think of doing so. If I need more range I'll use either my .270 or .308, both scoped sighted.

Dave you're just trying to pick a fight or confuse the issue. No one in this thread is talking about using these cartridges to 300 yards, but you. Everyone else is talking about using them to 150 yards, maybe 175.

Dave you're just trying to pick a fight or confuse the issue. No one in this thread is talking about using these cartridges to 300 yards, but you. Everyone else is talking about using them to 150 yards, maybe 175.

Sorry Mike, I just don't want to see or hear about someone who shot at and hit a Deer @ 200 yards with a .44 Magnum and it got away wounded. I realize the folks here would never attempt such a shot; but there are some who would attempt such a shot and wound a great deal of Deer. This is not very good for the image of sport hunting.
The .44 Magnum is an ideal woods cartridge and is powerful enough for Deer at wood ranges.

It comes down to personal responsibility. I would bet that there is a lot of guys out there with new magnums that think they can kill that deer at 500 yards. You won't hear about that wounded deer because if it doesn't fall down they won't bother to look. Most local guys I know shoot once a year and usually it is at the first deer they see. Practice is way too expensive.
I think most that post here are an exception.
A man has to know his limitations and most don't.

Russ

I am certain that the gun writers, you refer to, know a great deal more than you or I do.

You sure about that? Have you read some of the useless drivel some of these guys put out? There are certainly experts out there trying to educate us, but assuming that all the "gun writers" are experts would be a big mistake, and lead to false conclusions. Perhaps your own case is a good example?
The limiting factor is the shooter, NOT the gun or cartridge. So far your posts have claimed that "pistol cartridges" can't be used past 100 yards, regardless of trajectory, weapon, or shooter skill. There are certainly members here who can accurately place rounds out at long range with arc-like trajectories. Most are not. It's a good thing that you realise you aren't one of these people, but assuming that no one else has the skill either simply insults everyone's intelligence.
A shooter who can't hit deer vitals at 150 yards with a 454 or 45 Colt lever gun probably can't hit with a .270 either. It's not the gun's fault.

Also, since you admit to having no experience with the 454, why are you so adamant that it's no good past 100 yards? Have you even bothered to look at the ballistics, and compare it to the 44 Mag? Consider the ballistics of your 44 Mag at the muzzle; that's what a 454 is doing out at 100 yards.

Sorry Mike, I just don't want to see or hear about someone who shot at and hit a Deer @ 200 yards with a .44 Magnum and it got away wounded. I realize the folks here would never attempt such a shot; but there are some who would attempt such a shot and wound a great deal of Deer. This is not very good for the image of sport hunting.
The .44 Magnum is an ideal woods cartridge and is powerful enough for Deer at wood ranges.

Then you will surely support educating people to use trajectory tables, so they are exactly certain what their point blank range is. And that's exactly what has been done in this thread by pointing out where the pistol-cartridge carbines/rifles drop below point blank range.

To repeat over and over something that is false, is to loose all credibility.

Then you will surely support educating people to use trajectory tables, so they are exactly certain what their point blank range is.

I would suggest a more low-tech approach. Pick your distance and tack up a paper plate; if you can't hit it 95% of the time, from the shooting position you will most likely encounter hunting, it's too far.

Davers
Just like I hate seeing rifle shooters take shot's at big game at 500 yard +! There's no need to shoot that far- get closer, if not don't take the shot, hunt another day! I like Mike G have said no one here is saying a pistol cart. carbine is to be used at 300 yards! I know I'm capable of putting a killing shot out to 175 yds with my 454 Casull. Would I? Probably not as I have open sights, could I? Yes I probably could if everything was perfect, wind, lighting, me! I regularly practice at 100 yards and can keep all my shots in a pistol target (6") group with this gun! Can keep all shot's on a pie plate at 125 yds so my practical range is good to 140-150 yard on a deer sized target. Now my scoped win 94 in 45 LC I can keep them on a pie plate to 150 yards easy!

SORRY ALL. I was just trying to help in giving advice that I found prudent to the topic. I joined this forum inorder to learn things I didn't know or were aware of. I also joined inorder to share advice on things I do know about the shooting sports. I am regarded by those, who know me, as an accomplished Hunter, Reloader, and knowledge concerning firearms. I am sorry if some of you didn't quite understand what information I tried to pass along to you. Might be better if I didn't offer my opinion and only read what you post.

Davers,
With out your opinion and advice we would not have had this thread. I know you don't agree with some of the info, but info is good on both sides.
Conclusions: 300yrds is too far for most all shooter with a pistol cartridge.
200 yards is doable if you are a very good shot and sight your gun in correctly. If you can hit a pie plate with 95% of your shots from field conditions you can shoot that far. Always try to get as close as possible.
Keep posting Davers.:D

Russ

I would suggest a more low-tech approach. Pick your distance and tack up a paper plate; if you can't hit it 95% of the time, from the shooting position you will most likely encounter hunting, it's too far.

That's a great idea and we'd all be better for for doing it.

My point about the trajectory tables is that they don't make you a better hunter, but you will understand the limitations of what you have better.

Then you can start practicing on a paper plate, once you are sighted in!

After all - would we have credibility if we told the .270 shooter to sight in for 50 yards, so he couldn't shoot past 200, just to prevent the temptation to shoot at 450 yards?

I do think you've all made good points and although I've practically decided on the Puma I don't plan on any long shots until I've gotten to know the gun and its limitations in MY hands. Arch shots aren't a concern (not with my bow comparably) , reliability placing shots is.
If I can only dial in at 150 yards....then that will do for know until I really get to know the gun like I do my slug gun. I'll hopefully work on 200 one day and you've all shown me that although ballisticalyy the .454 is capable at 300 yards there are too many variables for that gun for whcih I surely don't have the skills for...as nor do many other hunters or shooters.

:rolleyes:

scottgray

Get that Puma and work up to a good load. The load I have talked about here is a 240 gr XTP mag over 35 gr of W296, Win case and CCI SR mag primer! This is out of the Speer #13 manual for the 260 JHP load it's not max! I hope you don't mind recoil as this '92 with 454 Casull load will kick! :) Heavy bullet loads get down right abusive!!

Davers
Hey don't take it personal! Lighten up! Sometimes we get are blood pressure up around here! :)