Hi guys. First thread I've started here...so be kind. ;)

I've followed a few discussions about the .45 Colt cartridge, and how loading it to higher than standard pressures in some guns...like the Rugers...is okay, and not in others...like the Model P Colts and true clones isn't.

The focus seems to be on pressure, and that's a genuine concern...but it's not the only reason...and maybe not the main reason...that heavy .45 Colt and .44 Special loadings are rough on the guns. They are...but not so much because of pressure.

With modern steels, the guns are amply strong enough to handle 50% overpressure...occasionally. Reserve it for needful purposes instead of general-purpose range ammo, and the guns will handle it.

The other area of concern, and probably the greatest one is the top strap, and the high tensile stresses that are imposed on it during the ballistic event that we know as action and reaction. This area is most stressed with heavy bullets and the resulting high recoil forces imposed on the gun.

When the bullet is pushed through the barrel, it imposes a high frictional drag during its passage...in a forward direction. At the same time, and with the same forces that are driving the bullet...the frame is slammed backward in recoil...creating tensile stresses on the frame. Stretch is the killer.

Steel has a memory, and it will tend to "snap back" after being stretched or deformed. this rebound won't go on forever, though. It eventually takes a set, and the stretch/rebound, stretch/setprocess starts all over again. Eventually, the frame stretches so much that headspace is increased to a dangerous point. The case is able to back further and further out of the chamber and the critical head area becomes more unsupported...until it eventually lets go.

We've heard this described when talking about double-action revolvers.
It's known as "Endshake" and it occurs for the very same reasons and by the same mechanism. Lighter-framed DA revolvers like the K Frame/M-19 Smiths come with the recommendation to use ".38s for practice and .357s for business." It's very good advice. K Frame .357 magnums "shoot loose" pretty quickly when fed a steady diet of the romp and stomp stuff...and the same warnings go for the small-framed single-action revolvers, especially in the heavy calibers.

While the cylinder wall thickness in the .45 Colt...along with the relatively weak brass...makes the pressures more of a concern with heavy handloads than the slightly thicker .44 Special cartridge...it doesn't do anything about the stresses on the topstrap. It's the same frame, and a 250-grain bullet at a thousand fps is a 250-grain bullet at a thousand fps, regardless of the caliber, and regardless of the working pressures. The recoil impulse is the same, and thus the stress on the frame is also the same.

The Ruger Blackhawks and Super Blackhawks will stand up to the high tensile stresses because they have those thick, heavy topstraps that are just stupid strong...so they fare well with hot-rodding. But they will stretch with enough use. I've proven that by shooting a pair of SBH revolvers so loose that Ruger wouldn't even attempt to repair one of them, and advised me to limit the other to reduced-level ammunition after the repair. In fairness, Ruger did offer to sell me another pair at their cost. Can't ask for more than that.

But I digress...

The .45 Colt's Achilles Heel can be strengthened a bit by trimming .454 Casull brass .105 inch and using .45 Colt data. It's not only stronger brass, but it has a thicker, heavier...and longer webbing, so using it takes up some of the airspace present in the .45 Colt loadings. Even the hot-rod stuff loaded with 2400 leves a lot of unused space. The Casull brass negates that somewhat.

HOWEVER...The tensile stresses on the frame are the same at a given bullet velocity. Slower powders help a little...but not enough to discount it. Lead bullets also reduce the stress as compared to jacketed bullets...a matter of reduced forward frictional drag on the barrel. Jacketed bullets are just harder on the gun. Any gun.

When experimenting with heavy .45 Colt loadings for my Winchester Trapper, I quickly discovered that the new brass would often split from the web to the mouth with recommended data from the Lyman manual...and I didn't even load to the listed maximums. When I started using trimmed Casull brass...the splitting stopped, and the velocities were only a little higher. The cases extracted easily, and the pressure signs were good...although I know that can be misleading, especially with thicker brass.

The same can be done with .44 Magnum brass for the .44 Special, but it's a good idea to drop a grain or two under your previous data and work back up while watching the chronograph with either caliber.

Again...That only addresses the concerns of the pressure bulging or blowing the cylinders. The stresses on the frame are unchanged...so reserve this kind of ammunition in the light-framed revolvers for "special" purposes.

Strange you say that about the Rugers. My SBH .44 has over 58,000 loads through it, less than 200 of those were light loads. The rest were heavy IHMSA loads and for 21 years, 320 to 330 gr cast hunting loads. I have zero endshake and no wear. My secret is to lube the pin and ratchet with STP.
What kind of loads did you use to stretch frames?
My experience with many S&W's has been no problems with pressure only recoil that beats small parts that have too much inertia like the pin that unlocks the front lock or the cylinder lock that bounces allowing the cylinder to unlatch and even rotate. I have owned 5 or 6 model 29's with hundreds of thousands of shots through them without increasing endshake.
My .45 Vaquaro has seen a steady diet of 335 and 347 gr boolits loaded hot with no wear apparent.
While .454 brass has a thicker web, I don't believe there is any difference between current .44 special and .44 mag brass. I have to find a special case to measure.
The main problem with guns like the Colt and clones has been steel that is not as strong and flexible along with the guns just being smaller from the cylinder diameter to the frame sizes. If you find pictures of blown up guns you will see that the whole top of the cylinder will be blown off. Look at a blown Ruger and the steel does not crack, it just expands, bending the top strap up.
The Ruger is a favorite base to build all of the large bore revolvers on that will double, triple and maybe even more, the recoil, without damage.
Please explain what you did to stretch a Ruger frame! The rest of us need that info so we can stay away from what you did.

Please explain what you did to stretch a Ruger frame! The rest of us need that info so we can stay away from what you did.

IHMSA shooter my own self...many years ago...and that's what led to the demise of the old SBHs.

A cast bullet from a custom mould. 320 grains as they fell out of the cavities...and way yonder too much 2400 powder to be sane...in a vain attempt to insure that the rams fell on contact every time, no matter where I hit'em. I shot those revolvers hard, and shot'em for several years...and that was my only load. The curse of home casting with an endless supply of free wheelweights and plumber's tin, I guess.

The big Rugers are brute strong, and *almost* indestructible. I had a few friends...also Ruger owners...who came close to callin' me a liar until I showed'em the guns.

"You shot a Super Blackhawk loose??? Can't be done!"

Daddy always said that I could bust ball bearings in a sandbox with a rubber mallet...

along with the relatively weak brass



And what weak brass do you speak of?

Tuner
I'd love to see that Ruger you shot loose too? Yea you were definitely shooting way over the normal hot loads if you really did wear out a SBH!! Want was the charge wt? Also 45 LC brass made now is not weak and hasn't been weak since the ballon head cases went away! There is also real questions on where those ballon head case were actually weak!

Tuner
I'd love to see that Ruger you shot loose too? Yea you were definitely shooting way over the normal hot loads if you really did wear out a SBH!! Want was the charge wt? Also 45 LC brass made now is not weak and hasn't been weak since the ballon head cases went away! There is also real questions on where those ballon head case were actually weak!

+ 1 -- I agree with this assessment.

And what weak brass do you speak of?


.45 Colt brass is comparatively weak compared to even .44 Special brass as evidenced by the new cases that I split with high-end, but not max loads of 2400...listed in Lyman's manual. The pressures were probably in the neighborhood of 24,000 psi with 16 grains of powder and a 280-grain lead bullet. The brass split from mouth to web. Winchester brass.

Anyway...before it drifts any further, I'll leave ya'll with the thoughts of the topstrap and the tensile stresses that stretch it.

Gunnut...Sorry. The Rugers have been gone for many years. I took them up on ther offer of a new gun at cost...so I bought a .41 Magnum Blackhawk. The survivor was sold with full disclosure, and the guy still has it as far as I know. He uses it for a truck gun/camp gun and rarely shoots it. He said that he doesn't load anything hotter than 240 at a thousand fps, so it should be fine. At last report...around 1982 IIRC...he said that it almost shoots into one hole at 25 yards with his load.

Me? I gave up on the steel ram game not long after. My wrists were startin' to complain, and my eyes were startin' to lie about where the edges of those rams were...so I went into my 1911s more or less full-time, when I wasn't at work. Been wrenchin' on those since 1964...and even that's startin' to wear thin. Pretty tired of it. So, I'm back to single-actions revolvers, and discovered that my first love hasn't changed a bit. Still sweet, and still seductive...and prettier than ever...but no more tank-bustin' ammo for me. I've just taken posession of a Cimarron Model P in .44 Special, and treat her real gentle with a 245-grain bullet and 6 grains of Unique. Got a USFA .44 Special on order, along with another Cimarron .357 all with 4 and 3/4 inch barrels...and lookin' hard at a New Model Vaquero .45 Colt. And no...I don't do cowboy action. Never been much of one to play games. Shoot! I quit school 'cause they made me go out on the playground for recess. :)

Was just wondering what brass you were using. I have been using Starline loaded with a 370 grain bullet and a good dose of H110 with no problems.

.45 Colt brass is as strong as .44 magnum brass and can be loaded very hot in Rugers. I have brass loaded over 40 times for both without a single lost case. I just don't know what you were doing. Is the chamber oversize?
I shot IHMSA for years and won Ohio state with 79 out of 80 using my SBH with a 240 gr Hornady and 23.5 gr's of 296 and the Fed 150 primer. I also won Ohio state .22 with a Ruger Mark II and no sight settings. I shot 57 out of 60.
To exceed the loads I used would be dumb. With 320 gr cast I use 21.5 gr's of 296 and for the 330 gr I use 21 gr's. No ram will stand up when hit and accuracy mean't more then over loading.
I won many, many trophys with my Rugers.

Allen...it was Winchester brass and Hercules 2400. Not sayin' what the charge was, but I will say that I used a drop tube and it probably woulda given Elmer Keith the willies. When the armorer looked'em over, he called me and asked:

What the hello have you been usin' for a propellant? C4??

I know...I know...but I was a foolish lad in those days, and the harder I pushed'em, the more accurate they got. I was serious about that ram line, I tell ya. And besides...They were Rugers! Can't bust a Ruger with dynamite. Right?

My guess is that the Winchester chamber was oversize. I think Mr. Linebaugh has done a lot of work to disprove the weak 45 colt case.
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Russ

My guess is that the Winchester chamber was oversize. .
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Russ

Nope. That was my first suspicion. I cast the chamber with cerrosafe, and it was mid-spec. The splits occurred with two different lots of brass. They also split with the same loads in a Virginian Dragoon. So... *shrug* I dunno. I've never really been a big fan of the cartridge, so I haven't used it very much. I gave the revolver to my ex-wife's younger son, and the Trapper has been relegated to a plinker/falling plate knocker with more pedestrian ammunition.

This keeps being a mystery. There just has to be some other reason for the split cases. Working loads over the years has seen me go way over max until brass stuck.
My first attepts for IHMSA was to use the 4227's in the .44 like a bunch of shooters were doing. It was a disaster because pressures would climb as the gun got hot. Velocity would keep climbing until it shot so flat I was 16 clicks over normal at 200 meters and still hit 50 meters short. This would start with a center hit on the first of every target, then each shot after would drop lower until off the bottom so I had to keep adding clicks at every range. I actually thought my gun was broken and kept looking it over.
Primers would smash flat and brass got tighter and tighter.
Reducing the load of 4227 had no effect on this either. Most guys used 25 gr's with the 240 gr bullet but even 21 would do the same thing. (I also noticed that none of those guys ever had a score to speak of. 16 to 18 out of 40 was the norm for them.)
I have been loading for and shooting the .44 since 1956. I have never split a revolver case in any of the guns or calibers I use.
My friend bought a Vaquaro .45. I reamed the throats for him. He bought LBT 335 gr boolits and was told to start at 19 gr's of 296, work up until he got sticky brass, then back off to the most accurate. I found 21.5 gr's is ideal in my guns but he kept going when he was home.
WARNING, PLEASE DON'T DO THIS! :eek: He went to 30 gr's without sticking brass. I turned white when he told me! :(
So this splitting brass thing needs further thought from all of us and I think we should discuss reasons and list them.
My first inclination would be brittle brass or over worked brass from a die that sized too much.
I have had small splts at the crimp but that was with new brass, fired once. I might have lost two at the most like this out of a lot and the rest have been going strong for more then 40 reloads with some of my lots.
I know, I am cheap! :D

Oh yes, one more thing. I have played with Cerro-Safe for years, being a part time gunsmith and I have NEVER had the stuff read correct dimensions no matter what time I waited to measure.
I only use it to observe chamber shapes.
Upsetting a pure lead slug will be 100% more accurate.

My first inclination would be brittle brass or over worked brass from a die that sized too much.
I tend to agree with that as well. Good brass should expand to fit even a grossly oversized chamber without splitting, regardless of pressure. Ever fireformed rifle brass in Ackley chamberings? Same idea.
If the brass was work hardened too much, (possibly from the manufacturer) it could split instead of expanding. That's it's necessary to anneal case necks sometimes, because the brass gets too hard.

I had a couple boxes of winchester white box .223 ammo once that split every round at the case neck. I've never encountered this again, even with the same ammo. Just goes to show that it's entirely possible to get bad brass straight from the manufacturer. That example certainly doesn't mean .223 brass is "weak", just like Tuner's example above doesn't show that 45 Colt brass is weak.

As a side note, when discussing brass strength, it seems that a lot of folks don't really understand what the brass does when the gun is fired. Once the bullet leaves the case and heads down the barrel, all the brass does is act like a gasket, to seal the small area between the back of the chamber and the breech/bolt/etc. We don't want brass that is strong and hard, we want brass that is soft (ie. weak) with just enough strength to prevent it flowing out of the chamber under pressure.

You folks have been pushing those bullets alot harder than I ever have.
On the "case split" issue I can only contribute the thought of a hairline scratch causing the split. Can happen in a reloading die or a chamber. It doesn't take much to make one. May have come from the maker? Uneven anealing maybe?
Makes me think of scratching glass to make a clean break (only brass is a bit softer).

zthang has it right with the gasket though. Even a balloon will fail if blown up and relaxed for too many cycles.

Cheezywan

Tuner, with all due respect, you need to visit John Linebaughs site and read what Mr. Linebaugh has to say about the Ruger single actions and the 45 Colt cartridge. When Dick Casull first designed the 454 he used redrawn 45 Colt brass, so don't believe the myth of "weak" 45 Colt brass. The Winchester leverguns in 45 Colt are known for having larger than normal chambers which allow the brass to expand more than it should causing case splits.

Killer...Yeh. I have. Linebaugh hand builds his revolvers with minimum spec chambers, and they don't reflect off the shelf guns any more than a 1911 built by Ted Yost or Chuck Rogers is representative of a box-stock Colt Government Model.

I split three rounds of twice-fired Winchester brass just today in a new Model Vaquero with 9 grains of Unique and a 260-grain home cast bullet. The chronograph says the velocity is 900-ish category.

I've also split new .44 Magnum brass in SBHs...but the pressures were way yonder above 9 grains of Unique in a .45 Colt case.

Tell ya what...Just forget I posted this. Mods may delete it if they wish. Didn't mean to start anything. Just wanted to share some experiences gleaned over almost 45 years as a shooter, reloader, armorer and gunsmith...mostly on 1911-pattern pistols...and to bring attention to a few things that many don't consider when loading up heavy bullet loads in the big bore sixguns.

I've used winchester brass with mid-velocity loads in my Blackhawk [9 grains of Universal Clays with the Laser Cast 250 grain bullet and standard primers for 980 f.p.s. average over my chrono from a 5 1/2" bbl.] and higher pressure loads [22 grains Win. 296 with the Laser Cast 300 grain bullet with magnum primers for 1270 f.p.s. average] for many reloads and can't remember splitting cases. I use Starline brass almost exclusively now and it's been great. I get better accuracy with Universal Clays than Unique and it's cleaner burning too.

Killer...Yeh. I have. Linebaugh hand builds his revolvers with minimum spec chambers, and they don't reflect off the shelf guns any more than a 1911 built by Ted Yost or Chuck Rogers is representative of a box-stock Colt Government Model.

I split three rounds of twice-fired Winchester brass just today in a new Model Vaquero with 9 grains of Unique and a 260-grain home cast bullet. The chronograph says the velocity is 900-ish category.

I've also split new .44 Magnum brass in SBHs...but the pressures were way yonder above 9 grains of Unique in a .45 Colt case.

Tell ya what...Just forget I posted this. Mods may delete it if they wish. Didn't mean to start anything. Just wanted to share some experiences gleaned over almost 45 years as a shooter, reloader, armorer and gunsmith...mostly on 1911-pattern pistols...and to bring attention to a few things that many don't consider when loading up heavy bullet loads in the big bore sixguns.


No need to delete. Posting one's experiences is valuable information.

However in this case I really think you got a bad batch of brass. As an example, I once saw a .223 Rem case split one, from the rim forward (including the rim itself). That's not normal at all and obviously a defect in the particular item.

I agree, you really must have bad brass, or have some out of spec sizing dies that are really overworking the brass.
I use 10gr of Unique under a 255 or 260gr cast bullet in my 45 Colt Blackhawks as my general all-around load, and have some brass I've loaded at least 20 times with this and hotter loads! I never have a need for a milder load than 10gr Unique, it's not hot by any means and won't split brass unless there is something else wrong.

Hot loads don't split brass! Thin brass doesn't split because it's thin or weak. Brass splits when it gets work hardened and brittle (or from chemical embrittlement, but that's a different subject).

My Ruger .45 Colts are gonna last forever, cause I dont even come close to some of those hot loadings...Dang!
Peter

Hi guys. First thread I've started here...so be kind. ;)

I've followed a few discussions about the .45 Colt cartridge, and how loading it to higher than standard pressures in some guns...like the Rugers...is okay, and not in others...like the Model P Colts and true clones isn't.

The focus seems to be on pressure, and that's a genuine concern...but it's not the only reason...and maybe not the main reason...that heavy .45 Colt and .44 Special loadings are rough on the guns. They are...but not so much because of pressure.

With modern steels, the guns are amply strong enough to handle 50% overpressure...occasionally. Reserve it for needful purposes instead of general-purpose range ammo, and the guns will handle it.

The other area of concern, and probably the greatest one is the top strap, and the high tensile stresses that are imposed on it during the ballistic event that we know as action and reaction. This area is most stressed with heavy bullets and the resulting high recoil forces imposed on the gun.

When the bullet is pushed through the barrel, it imposes a high frictional drag during its passage...in a forward direction. At the same time, and with the same forces that are driving the bullet...the frame is slammed backward in recoil...creating tensile stresses on the frame. Stretch is the killer.

Steel has a memory, and it will tend to "snap back" after being stretched or deformed. this rebound won't go on forever, though. It eventually takes a set, and the stretch/rebound, stretch/setprocess starts all over again. Eventually, the frame stretches so much that headspace is increased to a dangerous point. The case is able to back further and further out of the chamber and the critical head area becomes more unsupported...until it eventually lets go.

We've heard this described when talking about double-action revolvers.
It's known as "Endshake" and it occurs for the very same reasons and by the same mechanism. Lighter-framed DA revolvers like the K Frame/M-19 Smiths come with the recommendation to use ".38s for practice and .357s for business." It's very good advice. K Frame .357 magnums "shoot loose" pretty quickly when fed a steady diet of the romp and stomp stuff...and the same warnings go for the small-framed single-action revolvers, especially in the heavy calibers.

While the cylinder wall thickness in the .45 Colt...along with the relatively weak brass...makes the pressures more of a concern with heavy handloads than the slightly thicker .44 Special cartridge...it doesn't do anything about the stresses on the topstrap. It's the same frame, and a 250-grain bullet at a thousand fps is a 250-grain bullet at a thousand fps, regardless of the caliber, and regardless of the working pressures. The recoil impulse is the same, and thus the stress on the frame is also the same.

The Ruger Blackhawks and Super Blackhawks will stand up to the high tensile stresses because they have those thick, heavy topstraps that are just stupid strong...so they fare well with hot-rodding. But they will stretch with enough use. I've proven that by shooting a pair of SBH revolvers so loose that Ruger wouldn't even attempt to repair one of them, and advised me to limit the other to reduced-level ammunition after the repair. In fairness, Ruger did offer to sell me another pair at their cost. Can't ask for more than that.

But I digress...

The .45 Colt's Achilles Heel can be strengthened a bit by trimming .454 Casull brass .105 inch and using .45 Colt data. It's not only stronger brass, but it has a thicker, heavier...and longer webbing, so using it takes up some of the airspace present in the .45 Colt loadings. Even the hot-rod stuff loaded with 2400 leves a lot of unused space. The Casull brass negates that somewhat.

HOWEVER...The tensile stresses on the frame are the same at a given bullet velocity. Slower powders help a little...but not enough to discount it. Lead bullets also reduce the stress as compared to jacketed bullets...a matter of reduced forward frictional drag on the barrel. Jacketed bullets are just harder on the gun. Any gun.

When experimenting with heavy .45 Colt loadings for my Winchester Trapper, I quickly discovered that the new brass would often split from the web to the mouth with recommended data from the Lyman manual...and I didn't even load to the listed maximums. When I started using trimmed Casull brass...the splitting stopped, and the velocities were only a little higher. The cases extracted easily, and the pressure signs were good...although I know that can be misleading, especially with thicker brass.

The same can be done with .44 Magnum brass for the .44 Special, but it's a good idea to drop a grain or two under your previous data and work back up while watching the chronograph with either caliber.

Again...That only addresses the concerns of the pressure bulging or blowing the cylinders. The stresses on the frame are unchanged...so reserve this kind of ammunition in the light-framed revolvers for "special" purposes.I load REM 45lc brass for my RBH 4 5/8" using w 296 & h 110 .I also use the same brass loaded up into beginning 454casull data for my tc encore 15" 454casull pistol barrel & my 20" Bullberry sw460mag rifle barrel with no brass failures.

I just joined this sight and am a little late in getting in on this discussion, but here's my 2 cents- If you have an oversized chamber [ which for some unexplained reason the factories seem bent on doing in .45c ] and try to cast Cerro-Safe, you will have a hard time getting the casting to come out without scraping or squeezing the casting do to the fact that the loose area of the chamber always seems to be ahead of the web of the case. Well actually it also includes the area of the web/head but unless your loads are WAY over the top, the stronger web won't expand, thus creating the bulge I'm talking about. I have experienced this with two Blackhwaks, one Redhawk and a Dan Wesson 745. Anything I put in them that was above saami specs and I got the bulge. As to the brass, bfrshooter is correct, .45 brass is as strong as .44 brass [ read Brian Pearce's articles on the subject in Handloader magazine ], so I would suspect you are having a combination of things leading to your problem-oversized chambers and repeated working of the brass. It only takes a few reloads before this shows up, usually. One other thing to consider, soft brass. Several years ago I bought some new .300 Wby. brass and using the same loads I'd been using, in the same brass, I suddenly had a major problem with brass flowing into the ejector hole in the bolt face. I stopped using that brass and set it aside for awhile. Not to long after that someone wrote in to one of the gun mags. I was getting at the time with the exact same problem, although he was using a different caliber. The writer who responded to his letter said that he had received an unusual amount of mail on the subject and decided to do a little investigating. Turned out the manufacturer was having an annealing problem and some brass had gotten through that was too soft. The point is if your brass was too, soft it wouldn't stand up to high pressures very well.

Modern 45 Colt brass is not weak by any stretch of the imagination. Ross Seyfried's detailed article on this very subject years ago should have put that rumor to bed. Ross shot 454 equivilent loads in Federal 45 Colt cases and they performed perfectly and gave many loadings. I use Starline 45 Colt cases and higher pressure loadings perform in a perfect manner for me and the case have proven to be more than strong enough.
Bad cases and or bad barrel steel happen, there has been many pictures on the internet of barrels splitting from factory loads and this is not a normal occurs, as Forrest Gump said "Sh...t happens"

Amen to RWB. Takr the time to read all Linebaugh's articles on his web site and you will have 95% of all your 45 Colt questions answered and won't repeat the Classic Wives Tails.

Several years ago, late 80's early 90's I used to hit the gun shows at hte Gibraltar Trade Center in Mt. Clements Migh. There was a vender there that had extremely good prices on bullets, powder, and brass. They had an enormous clientel and promoted using Brasso polish in your tumbler to help polish your brass. Seems like every one who bought brass or tumbling media listened to them and bought the stuff. I stuck with my Dillon polish. Glad I did too. Quite a few people started experiencing case splits. Several writers of the time had been warning against that very thing. I guess some of the chemicals in Brasso interacts negatively with the brass and was weakening it. If anybody else has had the same experience I'd like to know. Just something to think about.

Brasso has ammonia in it. Good for shine because it removes the outer layer of the metal to do so. That is a bad thing for strength of cartridge brass. Alot of bore cleaners contain ammonia (so as to react with the copper jacket metal). Those that do, should be kept off of your good re-loads if you want to keep using them.

Cheezywan