I have a question guys, I purchased a win 94 trapper in 45 LC at an auction this week with the marking on the side receiver "1894-1994" SN 6156566. What caught my eye was the big loop lever.

Is this Win. original equipment (big loop)or an add on like with marlins?
The gun is about 98%. I paid $275 for it as I liked the way it handled. Comments appreciated...............Bob

I have the Trapper, purchased last year. It has the standard loop and is not "comemorative marked".
As far as it's ability to shoot, it is one of my most favorite lever rifles to shoot as it's just plain FUN!!!:D
Partenered up with My Mountain gun from Smith, It makes a great NE woods set!!!

BUFFALO BOB,

By the dates you mentioned it sounds like you might have some sort of Win 94 Centennial commemerative. I am not familiar with all they have made but I do know that on a lot of their commemeratives and limited edition 94's they put large loop levers on them.
Mine is a standard mid 80's Trapper in .45 Colt and I like it a lot. It has digested thousands of rounds of just about every bullet shape up to the 300 grs Corbons. It has the standard lever and feels fine.
For the price you got it for I think you got a good deal.

Maybe some of the Winchester x-spurts on the forum can tell you more. Or call Winchester and ask them.

Hey hey!
May I guess correctly that the Trapper barrels are around 16 - 18"? If so, what do you find for range and velocity?

The reason I ask, is that I have seen two 16 1/44" Marlin .45s and it looks to be a fun shooter, and since I live in PA, and most of my outdoors recreation is here, and the way this state is wooded, 100 yds and less seem to be the norm. But how well will the short barrel do for just plinking up to 125-150 yds?

nfmMike,

The Winchester trappers have 16" barrels,and I believe the Marlins are too. I've never done any chronographing but mine will do around 2" at 100 yards, if I hold my mouth right, use the right ammo, and have a good day.

What you mentioned is exactly what I use mine for, except the hunting, haven't done any of that yet. Plinking is one of the funnest things to do with one. When you connect with the target it gets exciting.

Lots of fun.

I didn't exactly say hunting, but it will go with me outdoors. I do so love plinking, and am going to introduce my youngest daughter to it this spring I hope. Start her off with my dad's pellet pistol, for sight picture and alignment training,and move up to a light (very light) loaded 30.06 by the fall.

nfmMike,

For introducing your daughter, try some 200 gr bullets with a mild load of powder. I have used the 200 gr Lyman SWC with 7.1 of 231 and it is a very light recoiling load. Or use a 200 gr Cowboy load.

As for hunting, I hunt mostly rocks with mine. You know those are very dangerous critters. You gotta have a powerfull gun for rocks.....:rolleyes:

I don't know about yours, but my trapper will feed anything. I have used the shortnosed 200 gr Lyman SWC all the way up to the long noses Keith SWC's and most everything in between. It doesn't care.
Enjoy,
J:

Sounds like a plan, now all I have to do is scrape the pennies!

Thanks guys for the info on the trapper. I just picked up a box of 300 gr. to load, they will have to do till I get a bullet mould.

The lever works smooth and easy now since it is all clean up,it just needed some TLC. It should be a good partner for my marlin 1895.....................Bob

I shoot 300 gr Hornady in my Win 45LC and yes I do hunt with it as I have killed several deer in Pa with it. If you plan to reload fore it make sure you keep the FPS up enough to open up those heavy bullets. 'course when they start off at near nickle size going in they don't need to open up a whole lot more! 300 gr /22.5 gr H110/starline brass= dead critters

Well I'm back from the range. I shot off some 21 gr. /h110 /300 xtp. The gun shot some nice groups @ 25.50,75 & 100 yds. these were all off hand shooting. I agree Leadflinger this will make a dandy SE Pa. deer rifle.

If it was'nt so cold and windy I would have liked to have set up the chrony, well that will be another day. yes I think this little rifle will be a keeper.

I still have not found one with a big loop lever on any of the gun auction sites............Bob

Winchester produced the Winchester 94 Wrangler "1894-1994" in 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, and 30-30 to celebrate the 100 years of the Winchester 1894. They also had a short run in 45 Colt which CDNN Investments carried.

You can find the Wrangler in 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 45 Colt, 30-30, 32 Winchester Special and 38-55 Winchester. The 32 Winchester Special and 38-55 Winchester sported engraved receivers. The 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 45 Colt and 30-30 sported the "1894-1994" on the receiver. The 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum and 30-30 with a clean receiver were a regular production for several years .

The Wrangler sported a 16" barrel and large loop lever.

It is not a commemorative. The 1994 WINCHESTER MODEL 94 CENTENNIAL 30-30 cal. sported an engraved blue receiver and a 20" half-round, half-octagon barrel. STANDARD GRADE 12000 mfg. $700 *

For $275.00 you made a good buy. You will find the Wrangler in the gun auctions and classifieds from time to time. I understand why you like it. I came across a Winchester 94 Wrangler I in 32 Winchester Special at a gun show at the local VFW about 18 years ago. It sported an engraved receiver (Western scenes), large loop lever, and 16" barrel. It caught my eye. I didn't have the money to buy it. I asked the guy if he would be interested in a trade for a Ruger Mini-14. I went to my truck and brought it to him. We traded. The sucker wound up with the Mini-14 and I walked away the prize. Never looked back. Since then I have purchased several Wranglers.

If you decide to try to spin and cock your Wrangler like John Wayne and Chuck Connors (The Rifleman) wrap a cloth around the front site. This will keep the front site from cutting your arm if you hit it. Also do it over a bed or couch. That way if you drop it it won't hit the floor. Your Wrangler should sport the cross bolt safety. Do it unloaded.

By the way it has a great psychological effect on people.:D

Thanks alot Yanqui for that info, the auction house had this gun listed as a "trapper", no wonder I was not able too find a trapper in a big loop.

Yes, I found out about the snagging ability of that front sight just in the normal handling of the gun, and by the way how did you know I was trying it in the John Wayne spinning fashion, I guess the youthful cowboy in us never really leaves us, does it Yanqui ? Here's too finding those great gun treasures...................Bob

Once you perfected spinning the Wrangler in one arm switch over and work on spinning it with your weak arm. Chuck Connors (The Rifleman) could spin, cock and fire with both hands. If you ever watched the show they had two different versions in the opening of the show. That is where he quickly fired off 11 rounds because of that screw that hit the trigger as he brought back the lever. Then he spun his Winchester. In earlier versions he used his right arm and in the later versions he used his left. Even throughout the series he used both. BAD TO THE BONE.

I never really saw John Wayne spin and cock his Winchester with his weak arm in any of his movies. There was one movie (I do not remember the name) where he was shot in his strong arm by a pretty girl so it was OK. (Makes sense to me ;) ). It's the code of the West. He tried to spin it with his weak arm and couldn't. That doesn't mean that John Wayne couldn't. It just means that it would be a good idea to be able to shoot and use any firearm with both hands.

I have a Wrangler "1894-1994" in 30-30. I came across an engraver at a gunshow. The guy is pretty reasonable on his prices. I HOPE I can get the funds together to have it engraved with western scenes someday. About 300 bucks. But I have so many projects.

Yanqui, with the big loop the temptation was to try and spin it and with a little practice a person could get quite good. Yes I used to watch the Rifleman on TV also, thanks for the info............Bob

Yanqui: next time you watch those old midnight reruns of Chuck count the shots he takes with that gun...you'll see there is one too many . Also Chuck was never really in real life able to use both hands. He had a double, though that could. Chuck was a pro ball player before he began acting. By his own admission he had two left thumbs.
i met Chuck back in the early 70's when he was doing work with Scorpion Snowmobiles. Nice guy, real down to earth.LF

Thanks for bursting my balloon. You must be a whole lot of fun at parties.

Okay, Lucas McCain could twirl his Winchester 1892 effectively with both hands. Sheesh!!!

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:PcPg_ThctF4C:members.tripod.com/~northfork/+the+rifleman&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.markdoty.com/rifle/

http://www.northforkproductions.net/

I just finished watching 2 episodes of The Rifleman. They come on here in Arizona at 1800hrs and 1830hrs. The opening scene had Chuck Connors blasting away and twirling his 92. If that was a "stand in" it looked just like him. I also saw him in the both shows using the 92 using his right hand/arm.

Last weekend I saw episodes with Mark as a teenager. In the opening scene it was Chuck Connors blasting away. This time he was using his left hand/arm.

It sure looked like Chuck Connors to me. I was watching very carefully. I know that they can do all kinds of magic with movies. But back then you could tell the difference when a "stand in" was doing the scene.

I know "stand in's" were used but it sure looked like Chuck Connors.

The real Chuck was real down to earth. At a dinner where he was being showboated for us dealers . I somehow got seated next to him for dinner. He took one short look at the "gourmet" food that was served us. looked over at me an said," this looks like crap, what you say we get out of here an get a decent steak". After the pleasant talk was over three of us and Chuck went out on the town with him as his guests. I assure you ole Chuck could use both hands to pour the good stuff down. LF

Friends,
Chuch Connors could and did use his Winchester model 92 ...44-40 "flip special" with both hands. I have pictures of him doing just that. Matter of fact he has both his original Winchester and one of his back-ups, and he's twirling both at the same time. He practiced the technique till he mastered it. The Rifleman t.v. show is probably my favorite western of all-time! Each show had some good moral principle for Mark to learn. How different from today's television!
I am blessed to own several "big loop" rifles in .44-40 ; .38-40; .45 L.C. ; .44 mag; .32 Winchester, and .30-30! I love them and I have no trouble spin-cocking as I have a lot of practice and 38 inch arms on a 6 foot 3 inch body!

Regards,
Timberwolf

TIMBERWOLF,

On your "big loop" levers. What type of "big loops" do your levers have? Are the levers just like "The Rifleman's" that Chuck Connors used? Or like the John Wayne lever like on the John Wayne Commemorative and the Winchester 94 Wrangler's. Or like the levers that the Rossi 92's with 16" barrels were set up with?

I'm really interested to know.

Hello Yanqui. Hope you're having a great night.
My large loop rifles have a variety of "large loops." My Winchesters have the more "oblong" type levers as John Wayne used in some of his movies. Other rifles have the more "circular" type levers like the ones that are on Rossi rifles. I love both types as they give me the capability of hunting with gloves on, and they also look good, at least to me. I call them eye candy. They make good conversation pieces. I also have two Trails End rifles by Winchester (.44 Mag and .45 L.C.) that have the large loops. I am looking for a .44-40 Trails End with the same, or I'll take one with the standard loop and I will install the large loop lever!

Sincerely,
Timberwolf

Timberwolf,

I have both styles of levers on my carbines also. I prefer the SRC's with 16" barrels. But I have two 92 carbines. One Winchester 1892 and one Rossi 92 with 20" barrels. I've tried both type on them and they just do not look right to me. The only big loop that looks right (to me) is The Rifleman's Flip Special lever. I contacted Northfork Products http://www.northforkproductions.net/ and asked if they could sell me a lever. Nope.

So I was hoping you had a Flip Special lever on one of your rifles. If you did I was going to ask if you could trace the lever on paper and send it to me. But I have some pictures so I'll just have to figure it out.

Just in case. Does anyone out there have a big loop lever just like on The Rifleman's Flip Special? If so, can you send me a traced copy of it?

Originally posted by leadflinger
I shoot 300 gr Hornady in my Win 45LC and yes I do hunt with it as I have killed several deer in Pa with it. If you plan to reload fore it make sure you keep the FPS up enough to open up those heavy bullets. 'course when they start off at near nickle size going in they don't need to open up a whole lot more! 300 gr /22.5 gr H110/starline brass= dead critters

LF, I am curious as to the yardage you stick to concerning deer with the .45 Colt. And, how well does it perform?

B BOB - where in SE PA? I live in Chester County (no rifle hunting) And will do most of this years autumn activities in nearby counties and up around the Ricket's Glen area.

LF - you say PA deer, what part of PA?

nfm Mike
I'm from Berks Co. you know where all the deer travel to private posted land during Deer season.

Mike I'm surprise the land south of I78 is still rifle terroity due to all the development that has taken place........Bob

B BOB, I don't know much about hunting arms restrictins out of my own county. Though I hunted S.Carolina (southern S.C.), a good bit, I never hunted my home state. I do know, however, that except for bow hunting, most folks in Chester county either moan about having to use a shotgun, or go to other counties to hunt. That is what I am going to do, and If I go for bow, I may stay local.

nfmMike: I have shot an killed deer with that load in my 45Colt out to 135 yds. I have little doubt that if you hit one at 200 yds it will kill a thin skinned animal like a deer with ease.
**Note ** some of the newer inlines MZ, ie. TC Omega ,are advertiseing that under a 150 gr powder charge that same bullet with a sabot is effective out to 300 yds IMHO my load as posted could be "hot rodded ' a bit to do it as well. As 22 gr of H110 isn't the upper limit.
But let me add that I also feel the 45 Colt in a rifle was never intended to do that. It is a super brush caliber and stopper . Under those conditions a 75 yd shot is usually a long one.
I've owned several 45 Colt in different gun names. Both pistol and rifle, for more years than I like to admit to. It has lost some glamor to the 44 Mag. mainly due to a few boisterous gun scribes whom lacked indepth knowledge of modern brass, bullets, and modern firearms. as well as wanting a free firearm from the makers of the newer caliber guns.
How often have you heard the statement ," will do anything a 44 mag will...." those are fighting words to a 45 LC fan! When in fact the 44 mag has an always will be trying to compare itself to the 45 Colt.
Right this momment I have none less than 6 guns in the safe of 45 Colt caliber. My personal favorite is a Winchester Legacy in a long gun and a Ruger Blk Hwk in a wheel gun. Why?'cause I killed a Blk bear with the pistol with one 60 yd running shot last fall. and a few days later a big 9 pt whitetail buck at 100 yds with the Legacy. In my home state of Pa.
Can you think of another reason better to not love those guns/ LF

Buffalo Bob,

How is your twirling coming? Just wondering.

How do you like the Winchester furniture. If you like it a bit more ol' timey in the western style Precision Gun Stocks has a Cowboy Retrofit. Since you have the Wrangler and it's a saddle ring carbine the saddle ring carbine furniture would look great. I know. I am slowly refitting my SRC's. They also have different grades of walnut.

http://www.precisiongunstocks.com/

Yanqui
That question made me chuckle, I really only tried it that one time, since I didn't crack my elbow I felt a sense of accomplishment and left it at that.

The stock as is, is just fine for me at present, BTW thanks for the Precision Gun Works link.

Mike
I can understand how they fell about having a cabinet full of guns and only able to use the shotgun for deer when hunting locally. We in Berks are still blessed in that sense. The shotgun of today needs not to take a back seat to the avg. 75 yd. deer rifle.................Bob

LF - Thanks for all that info - that is exactly what I was looking for in general information. I have no intention of using a .45 Colt for any shots over 100 yds on anything live - if I need that range, I have a 30.06. But I am very interested in "plinkability" out past that.

According to what I have read about the .45 Long Colt, I agree with you to a certain extent about the .44 mag keeping up and all that. The 44 is four years older (WOW!) and has it's niche and should not be threatened, different strokes and all that, y'know. I choose the .45 LC because I like it, and because it seems everyone has a 44 mag. - I have nothing against that round either.

B BOB - I agree with your assessment of of todays shotguns, and I would never give up my 12 ga., it has bothe sentimental and practical value to me. I may or may not ever use it again, but, that is my choice also.

Had to bring this back to the top, as I am reveiwing info concerning Winchesters again.

B Bob - you still like your large loop?

Hi Mike, yes I love that little Win. the big loop is great too.
I will more than likely take it doe hunting this year, I usually don't wear gloves when I hunt but if the weather is real cold I just may with this big loop.

Mike it shoots well enough for a hunting rifle with the original sights so I believe I will just let well enough alone....Bob

Mike, Bob: Hi guys! I use Win 296 under 300 gr bullets in my Blackhawk and my '94 Trapper. :D Out here in central PA where the brush is kinda thick, the long shots are 75 yd and under. You fellas ought to try making a trip out here to the Clearfield/Elk/McKean/Potter/Cameron county area to do some hunting with those 45's. The woods around here are just what our little rifles are made for. Also, northern Wayne county and eastern Susquehanna county have areas that would be good.
Something to think about. Good Luck!! :)
Dave S.

Great gun great caliber- the 45LC in a 20" tube is a legitimate 175 yd deer rifle! For smaller stuff (Coyote /fox and antelope) 200 yds. My Trails End is scoped-I know thats bad!! But with my old eyes its a must. With 300 gr bullets it's a thumper - 240gr XTP-Mag flattens the trajectory just enough to make the long shots easier. The 44mag is about 200 fps slower in a rifle, with a 300gr bullet than th 45LC and the 45 LC can shoot larger bullets then the 44 Mag could ever think about doing. I'v shot some Buffalo Bore 325 gr loadings and it makes the old 45LC a real thumper!!!:D :cool: :D

Dave..I'm using a 300gr. FNGC lead bullet but I use W296 cousins powder H110.
Thats the same type of hunting area we have here in Berks Co. perfect for the lever guns.

Gunnut45/454...Your right about these guns being a great deer rifle, they are also great for the young ones coming along in the hunting adventure......Bob

Anybody have a "normal" twist rate for the .45 Colts? I could look at Marlins site, but can't at the moment, and I seem to remember less than 1:38. What is considered good? Slow for weight, fast for light?

nfmMike
I think my Win 94 is 1:26

BUFFALO BOB
Your right they are perfect for young hunters- easy on the recoil yet powerful enough for them to take just about anything they want to hunt.-My daughter will be using the 45LC for her first deer hunt this year.

I have the little brother to your 45 trapper the 44 Mag version . We feed it lead bullets every week to the tune of about 5,500 now .It always wants to play with steel plates and deer sized game. It has never jammed ir mis fired.
Our little 44 seems to get smoother with age.
Now we have one in 357 Also.
If I saw one in used in 45 as you discribe I grab it .
Think you got a deal with yours friend. I know you willl love the little rifle.
Mine fits so nice in the back box in the ATV.:D

With respect to the rifleing, I suppose the button-cut does not mind lead bullets? I see that most Winchester owners have fired many different makes of ammo with nary a problem, and some Marlin owners that complain about some kinds or another. Any clues as to why this might be? Or maybe just picky shooters?

nfmMike
I guess the Marlins have two different types of rifling-Micro -groove and something else. The Micro grove makes it very hard to use Lead-and is picky about Jacketed as well. I think the other was Ballard rifling which is more for giving for both lead and jacketed bullets. :rolleyes: I guess I've been lucky with my Win 94/Rossi they both seem to be shooters and they don't much care what I throw out of them.

Micro-Groove barrels shoot lead just fine.

I've run loads upwards of 2,000fps in my .35 Rem, with a 200gr. gas-checked bullet (the RCBS design).

Just today I read in "Rifle" magazine that Marlins with micro-groove won't shoot CCI Stingers. Funny, no one ever told my 39A, it shoots them just fine.

So... this is one of the enduring myths that shooters have to suffer through. I'm sure there are some micro-groove barrels that won't shoot cast, but there are plenty of barrels with 'standard' rifling that won't shoot cast either. Most of the ones that won't, are probably copper-fouled, I'd wager.

Thanks again guys, that relieves my agony - just get it and shoot! Right? But that would mean I would have to give up my nerosis of over anal-izing things, huh? ;-)

MikeG
Your probably right-since I don't own one I probably need to keep my mouth shut. Just passing on what I've read over on Marlin talk. :rolleyes:

GunNut,

I've seen a lot of B.S. over there on the MarlinTalk forum. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.....

I am kinda glad I abuse my thought process the way I do, I started out six or so months ago wanting a 45/70 in the worst way, but held out, and out, and asked more and varied questions. I still want a 45/70, but not neccessarily in a lever, a sturdy bolt might be interesting. But I have come to the conclusion that a nice potent-possible pistol cartridge would be the "cat's meow" for re-introduction into the shooting sports, and I like .45 - ACP, Colt, long rifle (/70), so I believe I will begin with the Colt - seems to be the most versatile of the lot.

I am very pleased to have found the various firearm forums, I beleive they all have their place, I tend to like this one as there is very little on the "hostility menu". I won't mention any forums by name, but there are some folks that can't seem to let anything go by without screaming and name calling. I am too old for that crap, I want to share information and converse on a semi-intelligent level.

I am glad this forum in particular is here.

Mike
If you were around I let you shoot my 45/70 Marlin guide gun .It was a toss up buying the guide or a rifle chambered in the long colt. With the little Marlin 94 costing about 250 more than the guide I opted for the guide.I wanted a marlin and thought the winchester lever in 44 and 45 colt to be very close in perforance. Had I researched the colt a bit more , I probably would have chosen the colt

We started this forum with the little trapper in 45 colt. The old colt can be hand loaded up to 32,000 with 300 gr + loads , flowering were the 44 mag eaves off according to the June 2002 copy of the hand loader.

I often thought it would be grand to shot one of 45/70 single shots with the 32 inch barrel and tang and globe sites . Then we could see what the 45/70 could do over a distance. the recoil if one of these fine rifles should be a lot less than the Marlin lever ,that can give about 51 Lbs with hot loads.
;)

Well thank you sir! I would take you up on that if I were any closer!

I do keep seeing very well priced 45/70s, but I got over my testosterone desire for big power, and decided to go toward the .45 Colt simply because, I am finding a few at nice prices, and it is something that, if NOTHING else, I can plink with light loads to my hearts content. I can take this inside, I can shoot it outside, I can take it hunting, whatever. That is just about as far as I want to go with a lever.

I also saw, a three barrel H&R or NEF - 223, 45/70 and 12 ga. slug. The two rifle barrels are scoped. Low price too. But I want the .45 C first. 16 or 20" tube will do it for me.

I also think it would be very cool to take the long single shot out and do some LOOOONG range shooting. I read an article that described more than a few 3000 yard shots, granted, you will not pick an apple off someone's head twice in a row, but it was a good read.

Hey guys, I know I started the Trapper 45 Colt Thr'd but lets talk a little about the Guide gun in 45-70 with the 45 LC in mind.

I also have a Guide gun in .45-70 and love the heck out of it. They are both .45 cal.(.452/.458). I load the 45-70 with 14gr. unq/300gr.LFN bullet will give you about 1200 fps at the low end , a very comfortable load too shoot, train young ones or allow them or Dad to hunt deer with in thick cover.

At the top end 53 gr. H322/ 405 WFN bullet at 1898 fps (in my gun) for hunting the rest of the big game. What I used a lot a words too say the 45-70 is a very versatile gun. I consider myself blessed to also own a Wrangler .45 LC for there is just something special about its fit to the young and older cowboy in us. Just my thoughts only..........Bob

Originally posted by BUFFALO BOB
Hey guys, I know I started the Trapper 45 Colt Thr'd but lets talk a little about the Guide gun in 45-70 with the 45 LC in mind.

I also have a Guide gun in .45-70 and love the heck out of it. They are both .45 cal.(.452/.458). I load the 45-70 with 14gr. unq/300gr.LFN bullet will give you about 1200 fps at the low end , a very comfortable load too shoot, train young ones or allow them or Dad to hunt deer with in thick cover.

At the top end 53 gr. H322/ 405 WFN bullet at 1898 fps (in my gun) for hunting the rest of the big game. What I used a lot a words too say the 45-70 is a very versatile gun. I consider myself blessed to also own a Wrangler .45 LC for there is just something special about its fit to the young and older cowboy in us. Just my thoughts only..........Bob

You two guys have said it all.
I am driving my 405 lead with 45 gr. of imr 3031 at the range shootin' plates and having lots of fun.
Then got the trapper 44 loaded with 5.5 gr. bullseye and 200 gr. lead RNFP .
Got the young lad started with the fourty four.
My wife can rattle the **** out of the trapper fast enough you think it was raining brass.
There is something about driving an old car down the road that was built in the fifties. Got the same feeling with handling these two rifles.:cool:

I have to agree that the 47-70 is about my favorite. I have it in a guide gun, a 24" lever and a singleshot Browning. I can do almost anything with it.

I recently got a Win 94 Legacy in 45LC with the new tang safety. It has great balence, was accurate out of the box and even came with decent furniture. For knocking around the local area the Legacy and my Vaquero make a great pair.

Thank google for letting me find this site. I've been searching for this particular gun for a few months, and now that I know the exact model etc, I can purchase one of my own.

This may seem stupid, but I fell in love with this gun after I saw Angelina Jolie spin the sucker in Cradle of Life :p

laracroft8290,

Welcome to the forum. The USRAC (Win) 94 Trappers are nice handly guns. I've had mine almost 20 years now and won't part with it.

Stick around, and ask questions. You'll find we are a knowledgable group, willing to help.

Joe

laracroft 8290

Welcome to the lever gun forum. yes these little lever guns do grow on you, don't they ? Hope you find all the info you need, enjoy..............Bob