I am thinking of having a custom rifle built using a Martini action..are these actions equal in strength to modern actions? I plan on having a cadet action and fitting a .256 Win.Mag barrel to it. Am I making a mistake in choosing this single shot action? Thanks all for your input. * Flasks from Pa.

Flasks,

A while back there was an article in one of the shooting magazines about a custom .17/44 Mag on a Cadet action.  This was a pet project by Steve Herrett of Herrett Stocks.  Great looking rifle.

I'm certainly not any kind of expert, but one might assume that the Cadet would handle the pressures.......although, I'd probably take the action to a good 'smith and have it checked before using it.

Lobo in NM

Flasks,
There was an excellent article about the martini rifles in Hunting Horizons back in '93 or '94.  I think G. Sitton wrote it and described the rifle and it's capabilities very well, though it's been a long time since I've looked at it.  If you would like a copy (I think it was titled "Rook Rifles", send me a PM, and I'll try to get a copy to you.

Hope this helps.

Many black-powder Martinis (577-450 etc) were converted to fire smokeless .303 British.  

So.... the basic strength seems to be there.  I am not aware of any particular variations that would be better/worse than average.  Definitely have it looked over by someone who knows what they are doing.  I confess that I do not know what a Cadet action is, sounds like it could be somewhat smaller than a 'regular' Martini?  I'd first look at what the gun is currently chambered for and make some calculations based on that (pressure * area of case head).

Hi Don,
Did you give up on the Sharps?
How's it shooting?


Be well,

Chris

.256 Win Mag is an o.k. cartridge but you'll have all sort of fun extracting/ejecting the cartridge.
Martinis were built with a rimmed cartridge in mind, hence effectiveness of the .310, .303, .22 Hornet & .22LR in these rifles.
The big action, the .500/477 Martini Henry is also for the .500/477 rimmed cartridge.
Another possible solution using a case like the 7x65R Brenneke & necking it down to .257.
It may or may not give you the performance you want.
Sadly, there aren't many regular hi-performance rimmed cartridge in .257.
The Europeans like a number of 7mm to 9.5mm rimmed cartridges for drillings & double rifles but those are a bit too big for you.
But then if you're willing to spend the money you may overcome the extraction/ejection problem.
Does seem a little beside the point though.
Just IMHO. :)
Andy P.

I used to have a 25-225 Win Ack Imp, chambered in a T/C Contender carbine bbl. This is a wildcat that necks up the .225 Win case to the .257. Being a rimmed case, it worked quite well in the T/C.

Brass is available from time to time as W-W will make special runs of it.

.256 Win Mag is an o.k. cartridge but you'll have all sort of fun extracting/ejecting the cartridge.
Martinis were built with a rimmed cartridge in mind, hence effectiveness of the .310, .303, .22 Hornet & .22LR in these rifles.
The big action, the .500/477 Martini Henry is also for the .500/477 rimmed cartridge.
Another possible solution using a case like the 7x65R Brenneke & necking it down to .257.
It may or may not give you the performance you want.
Sadly, there aren't many regular hi-performance rimmed cartridge in .257.
The Europeans like a number of 7mm to 9.5mm rimmed cartridges for drillings & double rifles but those are a bit too big for you.
But then if you're willing to spend the money you may overcome the extraction/ejection problem.
Does seem a little beside the point though.
Just IMHO. :)
Andy P.

Kombi-you mean the 577/450 Martini cartridge. Kombi is right about the rimmed cartridges. Rimless can be done, takes a lot of smithing. I have heard a Martini full size action in good condition is as strong as a Ruger #1.

.256 Win Mag is an o.k. cartridge but you'll have all sort of fun extracting/ejecting the cartridge.
Martinis were built with a rimmed cartridge in mind, hence effectiveness of the .310, .303, .22 Hornet & .22LR in these rifles.
Andy P.

Hey Andy; P.O.I. The 256 Win Mag IS a rimmed ctg. Basically it's a .357 Rem Mag. necked down to 257. Originally chambered in the famous Ruger Hawkeye.

Flasks, Your project sounds like a sweetheart to me.
Pepe Ray

Like and use Martini actions, but not real sure what size action the original poster had in mind...basically can call them the "big one" and the "little one" (Cadet action) although there were some other variations.

The Cadet action has some diameter limitations (the barrel shank just isn't all that thick) and length limitations...have to come in at an angle when chambering longer cases. While I've seen them chambered for the .44mag., would be a whole bunch more comfortable with SMALLER diameter cases...will say this, the owner of that .44mag. has had it a long time and still has all his fingers and both eyes. The .357-ish diameter seems about perfect...from .222Super (and Austrailian vesion with a rim) on down to the .22hornet (and the various rounds based on that).

The big action is better suited to any of the larger rimed cases, but would still stay away from the excessivly long ones.

Getting a scope mounted in the right place for you to actually use, puts the occular lens just about over the dropping block; fat fingered guys sometimes get a bit fustrated. Not a big fan of the reciever modifications that lower the right wall, but others use it. Do have to plan out the mount and the scope (with attention to the occular and the power ring of a variable)...may have to mount it a bit higer than expected, or hunt scopes with the smaller rear lens.

wwwMarstar.ca I believe has actions and parts in stock if your looking.
Happy

I'm actually looking at building a martini custom myself using the 577/450 action(thanks for the correction, Carignan ;) ).
My issue has been finding a rimmed cartridge in the .35 to .375 cal range with the same performance as a 35 Whelen, my original choice before I ran into the rimmed issue.
I've had recommendations like the 9.3x62R & 9.3x74R Mauser rounds but some have said that a Martini would have trouble loading & extracting the Mauser because of its length.
What's the consensus?
Cheers & God Bless
Andy P :cool:

The 35 Whelen is a good cartridge. If a guy was a gunsmith and knew how to machine the bits, the Whelen might even be made to work-I have seen the modifications to take rimmless cases before.

I think on another thread 356 and 348 Winchester rounds came up. While not as powerful as the Whelen, could be loaded heavier in the Martini than the Winchesters they were designed for.

The case length is an issue. From what I understand a straight walled case a little longer than 2" will still make the bend. Bottle necked cases(depending on how dramatic it is) will make the bend into the chamber to 3" or so.

I am not familiar with those mauser rounds-are they rimmed cases?

If I ever get a Martini-Henry I will keep it in 577/450 unless the barrel is bad.
I have seen sporters in the 500/450 and 450/400 Express cartridges. A Martini-Enfield in 303 British would also be a welcome addition.

Sounds like a natural for the .375 Winchester - rimmed and straight walled case of 2.020" length. A very nice round in my T/C Contender carbine.

I would think 35 Winchester would make a good hunter on a Martini. I'd buy one.

Live well

I heard of a wild cat like the 6.5/303.Supposed to be a screamer according to our gun shop Ellwood Epps.com.
Since some actionswere 303 , My guess would be that there would not be much work to turn out a rifle based on the 303 B case.
The 310 cadets were rechamberd into the 357 M. or into a Roo gun by the Aussie'sI read some where.

Don't worry, guys, I wouldn't butcher a perfectly good .577/450 or .303 martini for the sake of a custom rifle. I can pick up an action for between $300 & $400 so there's no issue there. The Mausers are rimmed, hence the R at the end of the designation. Of course the coolest fun in terms of a round would be .375 Flanged Magnum H&H(rimmed instead of belted) but the cases cost a fortune & I don't think they'd have a long life, much like belted .375 H&H cases don't.
Anyhow, I'll have to see what is most sensible & flexible. It's a pity the .348 Win is such an unusal projectile cal. It's specs are very good.

Harry, I've never seen any data or even heard of 6.5/303. The common rounds were a few 22 based rounds like 22/303 Swift(not to be confused with 220 Swift), 303-25 & 270/303. Most were built on SMLE actions & had the low pressure limitations these actions have. The 303-25 is o.k., I own one, but it's obsolete with the rise of the .243 & the 270/303 is simply too heavy a bullet to sucessfully get a decent accurate range, at least in a SMLE action. If you want to play with custom dies & necking go ahead but the 6.5 Swede with or 260 Rem will serve you far better. Perhaps a new martini or M77 action would give you the safety to up those loads. Most roo shooters, however, use .223s becuase the ammos cheap & the round is very accurate.
Cheers & God Bless
Andy P

The .310 Cadet is an ideal little action to base a 256WIN on ,over the years I have owned one & several of my mates still use martinis in this cal.I have also had the chambers& barrels remmed out to 357mag & recently I have seen a cadet re chammbered to 357max

The 303-25 is o.k., I own one, but it's obsolete .
Kombie .I still use a 25-303 & there seems to be some thing of a revival with the Old girl.Your quite right about .The .223 being probarly the most popular Pro Roo shooting cart .These days! When I first started back in the dark ages!We all used 25-303s then 243/6mm,257roberts became the crase,from there it became Raffities Rules 22-250 .222 .17 .It was really only after the Painfull transition from pet food to human consumption that the .223 came to the front of the pack.As it is quite adiquate for Neck/head shots out to 200mtrs

my question is, with a martini action, do you shake em or stir em

my question is, with a martini action, do you shake em or stir em
__________________
Sir! Everbody.Knows A Martini 450/577. Always leaves the user both " Shacken & Stired

When using the cadet action, the chamber walls in the threaded shank portion of the barrel are regarded as thin enough to be risky when using a cartridge the size of the 44 Mag. It is also considered to be borderline in strength for high pressure cartridges such as some based on 30-30 cases. These should go on the larger action. OK for cartridges such as .218 Bee or variations. I have a large frame with a P.O.Ackley barrel chambered for 30-40 A.I. A tack driver but a pain to put the scope on.

Flasks, Here in Australia the Martini Cadet action was very popular after the war when there were hundreds of them around. They were used as Army cadet training rifles. Many were commercially rebored or rebarreled to 25-20 or 32-20. I have two, one in 17Ackley Hornet and one in 357Mag.
Full house 357 loads dont trouble it but!!! Primary extraction is not strong and any trace of oil in the chamber will cause sticking. Before mine go in the field I spray the chamber with electronic circuit board cleaner (from Tandy or similar) leaves no residue and extraction is slick as.A 256 would be nice, good luck with it .
Garry

[QUOTE=Carignan577]

If I ever get a Martini-Henry I will keep it in 577/450 unless the barrel is bad.

Just a thought, If you kept it in the origiinal chambering, where in the heck would you get the brass? Are dies available? I've wanted one of those suckers ever since I saw ZULU!
Odd Caliber
Shoot well, practice often, laugh much! :cool:

[QUOTE)

If I ever get a Martini-Henry I will keep it in 577/450 unless the barrel is bad.


I'd just about give my right eyebrow for a M/H in 577-450. Been wanting one ever since I saw ZULU as a kid. Do you know where to find dies, bullets and brass? How about loading data? I am FIRMLY of the belief that a firearm gets lonely and depressed if it is not taken out and shot once in a while!
Odd Caliber
Shoot well, Practice often, Laugh much!

Yes, are available...in fact, in the last year, quite a few of them came on the market...a big stash of very old stuff came out of Nepal,a dn of the stuff coming in, the 577/450's are the NEWER ones (the rest are muzzle loaders and .577 Sniders). Barrel condition and safety are the two things a chooter wants...can deal with the rest of it so long as it's solid, safe, and reliable.

Expect to pay a bit for them...and gladly pay a bit more for one with a good bore.

Brass is avaialbe (not cheap...but available)..bullets aren't a big problem...and black powder is the prefered propellant.

For all you fellows who are concerned about the strength of the Martini Cadet action, you might take a look at a magazine article "Notes on the strength of the cadet Martini", I believe. (It's posted somewhere on the internet.)

The short version is that back when exporting all those delightful little rifles to the US was a substantial export for Australia, one of the exporters decided to run some tests. He picked out a rusty junker (Francotte action) and rechambered it to .303 British, otherwise as issued. No other changes: No bushed firing pin, etc. It held standard military loads just fine, despite the oversized bullet. Then he started putting hot handloads through it.

I won't bore you with all the details, but it held some incredible charges with no apparent damage to the action, despite a series of increasingly blown primers. He FINALLY managed to blow it up with a load far in excess of any sane PROOF load - don't recall the exact data (and my copy is in a box - we're moving) but it was something along the lines of a compressed load of something like 4227 and an oversized 0.314" 220g 303 bullet.

Even then, the failure really wasn't in the action: The barrel blew at the chamber, initiating a catastrophic metal tear that peeled back the side walls of the action. The internal frame and all its parts were still quite functional.

Note that this was just for the Francotte action: The article noted that the standard miniature Martini action was known to crack through the pin holes on occasion.

I have several Ruger SS rifles, and love them. But I don't think they would survive that kind of abuse. And there is a Francotte version of the full sized actions from the Boer Wars, if you're lucky enough to stumble on one. Even with their old metalurgy, I suspect they'd hold their own with any modern action, and thumb their noses at most of them. With modern metalurgy (and I KNOW a few guys who have reproduced them with today's steel) (No, none are for sale at any price), I'm not sure one could be blown up with any load that will feed through the action.

Regards,
kbmoly

If its any help, I own a scoped cadet in 256 Win Mag. Its nice when you see the bullet holes in the target touching each other! :D

You should have the firing pin hole bushed as I did. The 256 is a higher pressure round than the .310.

You should have the firing pin hole bushed as I did. The 256 is a higher pressure round than the .310.

While a bushed firing pin hole is a good idea, especialy if you want to play with hot loads, it often isn't necessary. I've owned several rebarreled Cadets in 218 Bee and .357 Mag which did not have bushed firing pins, but still functioned quite satisfactorily.

I may not have made my point clear in the earlier post: The old, junky, rusty and worn Cadet action - even though the firing pin was not bushed - withstood pressures far in excess of those of ANY modern round - and probably far in excess of any modern 'blue pill' proof load before it gave way. And even then, it was the barrel that blew up, initiating a rip that cracked open the Cadet at the barrel tenon. The rest of the action remained undamaged and functional. Had it been fired from the shoulder, the shooter may have needed medical attention for bits of barrel in his forearm, but to judge from the photos, there wouldn't have been much more hazard than that.

The point was to reassure those individuals who have posted concerns that the Cadet Martini may not be safe with modern smokeless rounds, since it was only designed for a small black powder service load, and did't have the benefit of modern metalurgy. While it WAS so designed and constructed, these actions are still far stronger than needed, and still have a safety margin far in excess of that needed for any modern round that any competent gunsmith could / would barrel it to.

If you have ANY martini action, it's PLENTY strong enough for any factory load that you can get to feed through the action. And that goes double for any Martini built on the Francotte patent. Period. End of story.

HTH
kbmoly

[QUOTE)
If I ever get a Martini-Henry I will keep it in 577/450 unless the barrel is bad.
Do you know where to find dies, bullets and brass? How about loading data?

Well, nobody else seems to have responded to your inquery, so I'll give it a try. It's been quite a while since I worked up loads for a 577/450, and I really don't remember many specifics, but I can get you started.

I used a standard 500g slug for a 45-70 in mine: The fit was fine, and accuracy was decent. But there is a lot of variation in bores, so you may have to bump the diameter up, or perhaps paper patch it to fit your bore.

For cases, I had to use a rimmed bushing that fit the chamber and were a press fit over 30-06 cases. Look at Nonte's book if you are curious, but case loss (splitting) was horrible, and there's no need for such measures today, because you can get new drawn cases from a couple of sources. Check the Handloader's Digest. They're expensive, but very reliable, so you'll only have to buy a box of them one time.

My cases were obviously not representative for case capacity, so my loads wouldn't really help you much. However, 45-70 or 45-90 loading data is plenty safe in the 577/450, and you can work up from there if you wish. I recommend that you stay with the faster smokeless powders if you don't want to mess with black powder. I got good results with burning rates in the IMR 4227 - IMR 3031 range. My dies were turned on a lathe, but commercial dies are available now too. Dunno just where, so you'll have to inquire from RCBS, etc.

HTH
kbmoly

CH-4D is your best bet for dies.
http://www.ch4d.com/

Bye
Jack