What is your opinion about using lever guns for home protection, particularly those that shoot pistol caliber ammo (.45 L.C. , .44 Mag, 44-40, .357, 38-40, etc.) from a "Trapper length" barrel. I have in mind rural areas in particular where bullet penetration is not necessarily a main consideration. What caliber would you prefer, and what specification would you like in the rifle?

Thanks for your replies,
Timberwolf :cool:

A shotgun is loud enough indoors. I'd hate to pull the trigger on a rifle. From an area denial standpoint, it's tough to beat a shotgun. A family crouched behind the bed with a 12 bore pump laid across it is a pretty safe family. House clearing is better done with a handgun. The short weapon negotiates corners better and is more difficult to take away. The only way I see a rifle entering the mix is if you were expecting trouble at a distance. Not a likely scenario.

If'n I had to use a lever rifle as my home defense piece, That .45 Colt sounds nice. Big chunk of lead making decent speed at relatively low pressures.

Rifle for home defense-not the first choice but if thats what I had at hand sure! It would probably be better for those drive bye shootings where you'd want to reach out and touch them alittle as you see them coming down the street shooting! Put one through the engine block then exterminate as the cockroaches run!:D

My 1894 Marlin .45 Colt will hold 13 (thirteen!) cartridges in the mag tube - plus one in the chamber!

Tell me that won't work.... all it needs is a bayonet lug....

I'll agree that for a house gun I much prefer a shotgun... but, a family defended with a levergun is also armed with something that will potientially be fired by much of the family just plinking an in the name of fun. Familiarity by all members of the family with the firearm makes it more versatile, and more likely to actually be effective in the hands of whoever might be home when the need for such action takes place.

In looking at lever actions for your stated purposes, I'd strongly suggest looking hard at the .357 magnum chamberings. It can be fired with .38 specials for fun, inexpensive and unintimidating plinking and target practice, and even with hot loaded .357's most any responsible member of the family can not only handle the recoil, but quickly recover and cycle the lever for follow up shots should that eventuality exist. And, with the right loads the little .357 carbines are up to any of the tasks mentioned in this thread.

Get something user friendly for the whole family! Then pray that you only will call on it for fun!

God Bless,

Marshall

I agree with imashooter2 - shotgun is the way to go. I also agree with Marshal in that familiarity with the weapon is the best medicine for total family useage. What good is a room clearing 12 ga, if I am incapacited, and my girls are afraid of the weapon?

If one has the opportunity to think this through, and implement - one of the new 410 bore levers would be great - all the family can shoot it in "plink mode" with ease, and it fills the niche of being an entrance denying defensive weapon.

In a pinch - whatever weapon comes to hand and can be competently implemented is the best!!!!

.38 S&W and up is my choice. Or a good hardwood stick!

I have a Win 94 Trapper, and a Rossi Puma. Both in .45 Colt. Just walking though the house with these and not banging them into something is a chore. I would use a rifle as a house gun if it was all I had. But I would prefer a handgun if I had to clear the house, and a shotgun in a dedicated safe room.

For caliber I would prefer the .45 Colt with Win Silvertips. They don't have the sharp muzzel blast of a magnum, and don't have excessive penetration characteristics. They also cycle well through both my rifles.

I would not use a rifle. In the heat of the moment you will need to do some kind of aiming and that will not happen with a rifle. This is why the shot gun is best. point and fire.

I use a pistol and not a 357 mag, only for one reason. The mag will go through the walls and may find one of my kids in there! I switched to my Vaquero in 44/40. I will eventually get me a 1911 in 45 acp. That way the rounds won't go through the walls.

All my kids shoot all my guns anyway, so they are all more than familiar with how to do it. I think the best thing to do, if you really think you will have a confrontation is to take one of those weekend tachtical courses. I would like to do it just to see how it is done and feel more comfortable in the heat of the moment. But they are a little spendy and I really do not fear a confrontation where I live, so not a priority.

At across-the-room ranges, a shotgun has no appreciable pattern. It still has to be aimed.

Granted many of us (myself included) are used to shooting where we look with a shotgun, rather than deliberately aiming it. So.... there might be a mental aspect which would allow us to use the shotgun more accurately in a crisis, without being distracted by thinking about deliberate aim. When a quail or rabbit jumps up at my feet, I don't aim, I look and shoot. Whether or not this skill would transfer to a defense situation, I don't know.

Take your .44-40 and rig up some pieces of drywall to shoot through - line up 8 or 10 and see how many it takes to stop the bullet. Nearly any handgun round will go through a LOT more sheetrock that you'd suspect. Put each layer a few inches apart. Don't depend on the B.S. that is printed in each month's issue of Blast and Stab magazine - find out for yourself.

Bottom line - what you AND your family are most comfortable using will probably be what you are most effective with.

I think Mr. Stanton hit the nail on the head. If you use a short barreled 12 or 20 guage shotgun for home defense, thats about all it is good for. Lever Rifles are fun, and stuffed with 38s a lever can be shot by anyone over the age of 10. While you are doing penetration tests, try it with a shotgun loaded with buckshot at house range.
Andy

You could always try and find a 12 gauge lever.

Guess I should have clearified, I live in a 1927 home and all the walls are lath and plaster:D

I still think the point stands though, that a 44/40 lead cast 20:1 bullet, running at about 1000 fps is much less likely to penitrate through anything that gets in its way and through the wall and into the next room than a magnum round.

A 357 or 44 mag will. Most folks shooting magnums are not using soft Cast bullets.

I was wondering: what would be bad about using simple "cowboys" loads for the .45 L.C. and the .44-40 wcf? The velocity is about 800-850 fps. Would these loads be adequate? Would the fact that they are solid lead aid in not overpenetrating?

Kindest regards,
Timberwolf ;)

Originally posted by TIMBERWOLF
I was wondering: what would be bad about using simple "cowboys" loads for the .45 L.C. and the .44-40 wcf? The velocity is about 800-850 fps. Would these loads be adequate? Would the fact that they are solid lead aid in not overpenetrating?

Kindest regards,
Timberwolf ;)

Factory hollow points would be the way to go for home protection. Even if they over expand at rifle speeds they have enough weight to give adequate penetration on soft targets. By design, lead solids would penetrate more than hollow points at the same speeds, but the low velocity of the CB loading would help control that. I'd still take the hollow points though.

Hello Fellas,

I don't think I could use anything but a shotgun, unless I had nothing else available. The reason is I have two small ones, and it would be of grave concern where a shot might go if a rifle was used(that just goes for me and my cheap house). I use light Win. Rabbit/Squirrel loads in either my Win. 37A or my Hand R Topper 12 Gauge. I have read, but thankfully have never had to prove out, that light loads using small shot(4-6) are devastating at close range....ie room ranges. All the stuff I shot up close as a kid seems to confirm this(no road signs....just alot of Eucalyptus trees, abandoned washing machines and coffee cans at 10-20 ft. or so).

I think another factor may be important here. In the middle of the night, you should probably grab at something you are very familiar with. The two types of guns imprinted in my muscle memory permanently are my single shot 12 gauges, and the M16A1 I carried in the Army. I can work the controls of all half asleep from having spent SO much time with them. I can operate them without thinking too much, and I think that would be important. Of course, the single shots become clubs after the first shot. That is a serious drawback, but I still use the latter for home defense.

Levers have defended people for nearly a hundred and thirty odd years and I think they are wonderful guns. If I didn't have kids I might well opt for my Big. Bore 94. But that new button safety would probably be the death of me. You do something a certain way long enough, and you keep doing it(had an older 1970's Mod. 94 growing up...no dumb safety). I say if your VERY familiar with a particluar lever, and no young ones sleeping in the next bedroom, GO FOR IT!

HK MP5 with the Navy trigger group, that's about the only "rifle" I can think of wanting to use in the house.

Three thoughts:

1. A police buddy worked in the bad part of our town for years and has never had to fire a shot in a bar brawl (in which it was discovered people were carrying weapons). He tells me he would walk in and rack his 12 guage and everyone would get real quiet or leave the building. So, racking a 12 guage pump gun in a quiet house is his first line of defense. He never had to go further, but he says if anyone ever continues aggressively after hearing that sound you have good reason to think they are a mortal threat (or are just plain nuts.)

Second thought: The shorter the barrel, the less likely anyone else will control it. Another true story: An enraged man broke into the house across the street from us in the middle of the night 5 years ago. Great grandma (that's right, grandma's mother who is about 5'2" and thin) latched onto the enraged man's long shotgun barrel and prevented him from doing any more harm than bruising her arm and shooting a hole through the roof. Meanwhile, while the two of them were wrestling with that long barrel, the granddaughter shot the bad guy with a Ruger 44 handgun. End of story, except for the court case and terrible feelings. Being right isn't always easy.

3. Until further notice: "Dance with the girl what brung you." OR, shoot what you've got.
Dave

My 'go-to' gun behind the bedroom door is an early Marlin 1894c in .357. I live in the country. A bump in the night may require more horsepower than any of my handguns can provide with similar ease of use. I bought the .357 long before the same frame was available in .44, .45 or .41, but wasn't tempted to trade it in when those showed up. The Marlin in .357 is compact, EXTREMELY accurate (mine has Microgroove rifling and I usually load it with jacketed rounds, although it also handles .358 hard cast lead pretty well) and disposes of more oomph than a .44 Magnum handgun. I don't worry about overpenetration. Walls can be patched, and it's surprising how few times you hear of people being tagged accidentally by bullets that have ranged through a bad guy, although it seems to be widely feared. I don't worry about putting slugs through the walls of some apartment building. I DO worry about being able to tag some varmint swarming the porch roof or deck rail, and letting air in and out of him in proper and final fashion.
Clearing a house is something I'll leave to the Sheriff's department, while I await their arrival, forted up with the wife in our nice safe room. I don't need a short gun for that.
Shotguns are ok, if you can get over the mistaken belief that they are no-aim magic wands. They also are LOUD, and the recoil isn't something that anyone but an experience shooter can easily handle. So that rules out use by the wife and kids (ordinarily.) That business about racking a shotgun to scare away the boogie man is pure twaddle. Most burglars would probably think the noise was someone opening a door, or dropping the cash box that they hope to steal. I want the last thing they hear to be the firing pin hitting the primer.

I know a guy who lives in an old "lath and plaster" style house, who had an AD with his 357. It left a 6 inch wide crater, about 2 inches deep, but never made it into the next room. Shoot that same wall with a 45acp, and you're likely looking at complete penetration with all but the specialty loads.
Personally, in a home situation, I think a 357 levergun would be ideal. Bear in mind where everyone is (Hopefully barricaded with you!) and remember the sound of a levergun is similar to that of a pump shotgun- very intimidating! And were I to use a shotgun in a house, I'd load it with the smallest shot I could get, #12's if possible. I know of a PH in Africa that used it in a 12 Ga to follow up wounded leopards! Devastating at close range, but not much for penetration......perfect!
PJ

Look at it this way,If there all lined up heading down the hall and you use your 45-70 lever gun you only need one shot as it would penetrate several of them :)
It wouldn't be my first choice,but it certainly would work.Hope none of us has to find out.

Best of luck.Jayco.

I have a friend that is as fast and accurate with his .357 lever gun as Chuck Conners and I would not want him to be able to get his hands on it if he was after me. I think that guick, fluid, familuarity with a firearm is what makes it effective in a pressure situation.

Well, let's just all hope that none of us have to be in that situation. I've got my 44/40 ready and a side by side to back it up.;)

Normally I prefer the .45ACP for home defense. My CZ-97B holds 10rds in the mag, and 1 in the tube. The first 3 are glaser safety rounds, and the rest are FMJ's to finish the job. As for the lever-gun issue, I guess my Browning 1892 would do a good job in a stand-off situation, but I'd prefer the rapid fire capability of a semi-auto pistol. Besides, when shooting in the dark under pressure, I'd like to know that if 11 rounds weren't enough to end the situation, I still have 4 more mags of 10 to reload quickly!! As long as my family was safe, I wouldn't care how many holes are in my walls.
Familiarity with your home defense weapon is probably the most important thing in a bad situation though, so I say whatever you are most comfortable with is the right weapon.
whizzum300

First, do everything to make your property and home unattractive to criminals: lighting, landscaping, locks, etc.

Second, think through your escape and evasion plan. This gets pretty complicated where there are many family members, including children. The "conservatives" will disagree, but getting to a safe place, even if it means fleeing your own home, makes alot more sense than shooting it out.

Finally, the most sane proposal I have ever heard is for a single shot, shotgun with a short barrel in 20 ga. with bird loads. Put the shells in an elastic, buttstock sleeve and teach everyone in the house how to use it.

A. It has a deterrant visual effect if bad guys get a chance to see it. B. Penetration is not a major concern. Muzzle flash and report are intimidating to any bad guy who is in touch with reality. C. A solid hit is more likely (than with a handgun) and will probably end hostilities.

If I lived alone a levergun would be a fine choice, especially in a pistol caliber.

I once chronographed some Hornady 180 gr XTP factory loads from my .44 mag trapper, and was surprised to see they pushed 2300 fps. I would think at that velocity they would be almost explosive, and would end a fight right quick, assuming a solid body hit. They were also pretty accurate out at 100 yds. The bad thing would be the muzzle flash if you had to fire in the dark. I fired some near dusk (but still quite light out) and the mf was VERY noticable.

I second the shotgun motion! (I have a neat little 20 ga. with 18" barrel and a youth style shortened stock.)

However, I would certainly not feel helpless with any levergun. I have a 357 Rossi 92 and have been pleasantly surprised by how loud it isn't with 38 special loads! I rarely feel the need to wear ear protection with it I really don't remeber it ringing my ears with any standard 38 loads.

So if I were going to use a levergun for home defense it would be a 16" barrel in 357 mag and would usually be stoked with 125 gr JHPs in a standard 38 load.

My 2 cents.

Reb

I've keep numberous rifles around for home defense. CAR-15, SKS, M1 Carbine and Marlin 1894 in 41. Agree with Chris on the familiarity thing. I can grab either a M9/M1911 or M16 variant without a thought. I've done numberous CQB training with long guns and if you know what your doing its not that difficult.

I have a Marlin 1894CP 16.25" ported barrel and my Ruger GP-100 6" barrel. Stoked with Buffalo Bore 125gr Gold Dot for 2 legged vermin'!

Revolver = approx. 1700fps

Carbine = approx. 2200fps

And for backup, my Marlin 1895GS stoked with some "special" rounds for when I need penetration........ :D

Don't fear the dark, be afraid of the light!

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Accessories/Lightmount.jpg

I vote for the shotgun. Prefer double-barrel over pump for home defense - racking that slide could get you shot.

If you're buying a gun specifically for home defense, a short-barrel, no-choke 12ga with Heavy Dove loads would be awesome. So many BBs in those slow, heavy loads--and they're not as noisy as standard shotgun loads.

Not that a lever gun wouldn't work, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Bird shot has inadequate penetration to be used for self defense. Anything other than an average sized, lightly clad attacker in a perfect B27 pose and you are likely looking at a gruesome shallow wound and a still dangerous adversary. And though a single shot shotgun is better than hurling insults, more than 1 shot is something everyone should require in a home defense piece. A double would be the bare minimum, and 5 shots much better.

Last night we had a rare occurrence around my town.

I was walking my dog and all of a sudden, there were police cruisers roaring up and down the street. One of the officers screeched to a stop and asked me if I had seen a male (my words, not his) running through my neighborhood. I informed him I hadn't, he zoomed off, I began to continue my walk. Starting to think the worst, and realizing my wife was home in the shower and my daughter home too working on homework, I did a 180, and high tailed it home.

After slipping and falling on ice :mad:, I got into the house, ascertained that my family was OK, switched on the floodlights, locked all the doors, and went up and grabbed my Mossberg 12ga Slugger and put it in an accessible place. My wife wondered what I was doing and after explaining the situation she didn't have any complaints of my actions.

The cruisers kept patrolling the area for a while. I continued my project of putting my 336 back together with my 500 sitting right next to me.

A few hours later, all was quiet, had 336 back together, took my rifle and shotgun to the bedroom and went to sleep.

Kind of a weird night.

OldWolf

I guess there are some benees being in the mil. We are stationed on a Sub base, so there isn't much of a threat
living in base houseing. seems the only crimes commited with
personal weapons here is blowing ones head off. (2 last year)
I have to keep my weapons locked up at all times here, but
our pit/boxer and pit/lab have no problem tearing into some
idiots glutes. Because of the national security issue, I could be wrong, and I don't think I am allowed to say much... but I believe any type of armed confrontation on base and the Marine security detachment (3 m-16's 1 M-60) are as I understand it supposed to respond at scene in under 5 minuites. would love to see an armed burgler dealing with that.

I have a Mossberg 835 ultimag that I use for hunting and home defense. I just switch barrels and I'm good to go. For Home defense I use a standard 28" smoothbore barrel, cut down to 18.75". As far as penetration goes, I am a firm believer in using all means necessary, but without blowing my house apart in the process. Therefore I stock some of the "exotic" 12 guage rounds for home defense.

12 GAUGE SHREDDER
THIS ROUND IS LOADED WITH SHARP PROJECTILES AND THEN BUFFERED WITH #12 LEAD SHOT. BEST APPLICATION IS FOR HOME DEFENSE USE.
$12.95/PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE FLECHETTE
A FLECHETTE IS A 1 INCH DART SHAPED PROJECTILE FOR USE IN TAKING OUT SNIPERS HIDING IN THICK BRUSH OR TREES. DUE TO THE PENETRATION OF THESE PROJECTILES, TREE LIMBS AND BRUSH WILL NOT DISPERSE THE DARTS AS READILY AS ROUND SHOT. THEY WILL GIVE AN ALL COVERING PATTERN WITHIN TREES OR BRUSH. NOT INTENDED FOR HUNTING. THESE WERE UTILIZED DURING THE VIET-NAM ERA, OFTEN REFERRED TO AS THE "BEEHIVE" ROUND.
$9.95/PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE DISINTEGRATOR
THIS ROUND IS SUPER EFFECTIVE FOR BLOWING OUT DOOR LOCKS, DOOR HINGES AND DEAD BOLTS. THESE SPECIAL CARTRIDGES HAVE A CHARGE OF COMPRESSED POWDERED METAL THAT IS VERY DENSE AND STRIKES THE TARGET WITH A GREAT DEAL OF FORCE. THESE INSTANTLY TURN BACK INTO DUST. THUS, THE DOOR AND LOCK IS BLOWN OFF, AND PENETRATION IS VIRTUALLY REDUCED TO ZERO! MINIMUM RANGE IS 15 FEET. SOME PARTIAL BLOWBACK. WEAR PROTECTIVE EYE WEAR.
$9.95/PKG 0F 3

That basically makes up my home defense ammo. The Disintegrator round is quite amazing. I tested it on an old store mannquin (sp?) that I outfitted with an old heavy winter down coat. At 15 feet, I shot at the arm and it litterally ripped the coat away as well as the layer of paint or plastic that was on the arm of the dummy. Nothing penetrated through the arm at all, but if that was skin, dang, it would have been stripped off. I tried it on the body of the dummy with similar results. It literally disintegrated the coat and the top layer of plastic/paint at the area of impact, with zero penetration. Ouch!

You can get this ammo from
http://www.hi-vel.com/ as well as other simila distributers.

They have some incredible stuff, but most importantly, I am confident in what these rounds can accomplish and I do not have to worry about penetration through sheetrock if I ever have to use it.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a levergun for use as a home defence weapon. People have been using them for this purpose since they were first designed. One of the shorter barreled 'pistol' caliber rifles/carbines would perhaps be a handier choice if ones house were a bit small (small confined spaces), or the hallways narrow, but I see no problem. Read all the articles out about the use of leverguns as tacticle/defence weapons. People are now putting a lot of study into an area others have dealt with for years, i.e., short fast handling rifle/carbines in relatively short range, powerful cartridges.


Good luck. Bones

Last night we had a rare occurrence around my town.

I was walking my dog and all of a sudden, there were police cruisers roaring up and down the street. One of the officers screeched to a stop and asked me if I had seen a male (my words, not his) running through my neighborhood. I informed him I hadn't, he zoomed off, I began to continue my walk. Starting to think the worst, and realizing my wife was home in the shower and my daughter home too working on homework, I did a 180, and high tailed it home.

After slipping and falling on ice :mad:, I got into the house, ascertained that my family was OK, switched on the floodlights, locked all the doors, and went up and grabbed my Mossberg 12ga Slugger and put it in an accessible place. My wife wondered what I was doing and after explaining the situation she didn't have any complaints of my actions.

The cruisers kept patrolling the area for a while. I continued my project of putting my 336 back together with my 500 sitting right next to me.

A few hours later, all was quiet, had 336 back together, took my rifle and shotgun to the bedroom and went to sleep.

Kind of a weird night.

OldWolf
OldWolfe,
Sounds like you were protecting your family well. I personally have several handguns ready in the house (please note we don't have any kids so it's a bit easier to keep handguns somewhat hidden but readily accessible). I don't keep my Mossberg 500 loaded and ready under normal circumstances but given your situation I definitely would have loaded the 12 gauge and kept it close by. I have a Winchester Model 94 (30-30). For some reason I don't think of it in those circumstances but probably should. Stay safe!!

It's just me, the wife and our Pekenese way out in the country, so I could care less about overpenetration. I need the range of a rifle in case the situation evolves into an outside the house, shooting across the field scenario.

So, an M94 AE 30-30 Winchester make very good sense as a beside the bed gun. I also have handy on the nightstand my cell phone, a Magnum revolver & a Maglite with fresh batteries.

Nathaniel,

I think you are well armed, and a 30/30 makes much sense if you practice with it a good amount. One thing I wanted to add which you may know. If you've ever fired a full house 158 gr. 357 Magnum load inside a small room, you'll likely not forget it anytime soon. Even with good ear muffs, it is a fairly violent event.....feel the hair on your arm trying to come off and everyone shooting beside you starts to get annoyed at the range. I shot a 4" GP-100 in 357 for a number of years and learned this the hard way. It was a good deal worse than my Super Blackhawk in 44 Mag. with full house factory loads. Muzzle Flash and Noise are extremely intense. So, that may increase the disorientation factor if you have to go to that gun. It makes you lose your night vision a bit also. But then again, probably the best defense pistol one can shoot if all of this doesnt get to you. Just a couple more cents to add to the bank.

Check out Winchester Super X hollow point 44 Special. Sub-sonic, no recoil, makes big gaping holes. Distance is limited to about 50 yards. But a person would be hard pressed to claim self defense using a 44 MAG at 100 yards.
TR

Good to go, Chris. You're right about the hazard of noise - but it's a risk I'm prepared to take.

Another reason for the M94 as a home defence weapon is lawer-proofing.

If I ever were forces into shooting a drug-crazed, violent attacked, (even provided I could prove he intended me and/or my family imminent harm or death), imagine the reaction of the law enforcement personnel and the attorneys involved if I were to do so with my CAR 15.

The '94 conjures up mental images of a hunter's rifle, or the "cowboy gun" - not an "assault rifle", (whatever that is.....).

I have never been a shotgun fan for any purpose other than clay targets. I keep a pre 64 1894 30/30 carbine around the house for repelling boarders, as well as my 1886 carbine on the wall above the bed. The 4" model 29 Smith & Wesson with 44 special loads of 250 gr Keith bullets at about 850 fps is the beside the bed gun. I live in rural Wyoming about 35 miles from town, though I have some neighbors spread out around me. The closest neighbor is about 150 yards away. A home intrusion here is more likely to be a bear or mountain lion, I had one rattlesnake in the house (yes i shot it). If in a town, a 44 carbine with 44 special loads would be my first choice.

Someone mentioned keeping a Maglight with their gun next to the bed? Do yourself a favor and get a better light. I used Maglights for many years, stubbornly clinging to them with many people telling me that this or that light was "better". Well, someone "showed me the light" so to speak. I now have a Streamlight Scorpion, a Surefire Executive Elite, and a Surefire Nitrolon G2. The light output is absolutely unbelievable. The Maglights DO NOT COMPARE!!!!! Maglights are wal-mart grade lights!!!! You can have a light about the size of a "Mini-Maglight" that gives more light output than a 3 D cell mag with Krypton bulb. No more bulky, heavy, unhandy light to try to manage along with the gun. Most cops are using the new type lights now. They are bright enough to literally blind someone mometarily, giving you the time and chance to control the situation. And how about a 10 year shelf life on your batteries? Look into the Surefire lights, you will not regret it. The new generation of lights are truly weapons grade lighting tools

I spose bears in the house would not be good.

I would probably fear the snake more than the bear! Bear fills the freezer:eek::D Snake bites the kids!:eek:

I'd probably use my 96/44 for home defense if I had to. Since the powers that be in Australia have banned pump/auto shotguns, most handguns, semi auto rifles i reckon a lever would work OK. It's either that or my 18 inch Mosin Nagant carbine with folding bayonet. If the bullet don't get them the blast will cook 'em! :D Run what you brun, I reckon.

it's so limited in utility. You are very unlikely to make it to any longarm in time, so a ccw pistol, yes, even at home, is the answer. The rifle is for survival foraging, and for "war", as in societal breakdown. In a riot or shtf situation, a shotgun sucks, because of its lack of range, penetration, mag capacity, sound suppressor, flashhider, concealability (when disassembled) ease of cleaning in the field, and so on. If cost is an issue, sks's are $150, and practice ammo is 8c a shot. With good sp's, it performs at least as well on deer as does the 30-30.

the auto can get 5 hits per second, timed from the first shot, on real electronic shooting timers. The lever is lucky to be half as fast. Why just give up any advantage to the enemy, hmmm?

Seven, you can hit 5 separate targets in 1 second with the auto? Thats amazing. Or did you mean you could hit 1 target 5 times in 1 second?

I think folks have a false sense of security that by using a shotgun you wont shoot through a wall injuring someone in the next room. I would suggest taking some dry wall and making a simulated wall and going to the range. You will be surprised. At the distance you will be shooting in the home even light bird loads will blast a large hole in an interior wall or door.

I think a 45 ACP is still a good home security weapon. The Camp rifle fits the bill nicely. The 30 Carbine is also a good choice. But there isnt any thing wrong with a lever gun either. I think the pistol cartridges would be the best choice though. You can get the bird shot cartridges and the buck shot cartridges for the pistol rounds. At close range these work pretty well. In close quarters the carbines also make a nice club.

The bottom line for any weapon for home security is to be as safe as possible, yet willing to use it in an effective manor if needed.

Just my 2 cents.

I read most of this with intrest. I have some advice from some one who spent 26 years as a street cop and who has instructed several hundred folks in selfdefence. I have also owned and tested the 357 carbine:
1. DO NOT use a shot gun (the racking of the slide) to scare an attacker. This gives the attacker your location, armament, and gives up your most important element, that of suprise.
2. The "John Wayne" assualt rifle is PC and very effective and defendable in court.
3. When I tested the 125 gr in my Marlin they were about two to three times more destructive than that load in a hand gun.
4. The use of any 'long' gun for home defence is best when in a 'safe room', not mobile as search the building. This is where the hand gun is safer and more tacticaly acceptable.
Hope this helps,
Jim

I don't know, for what its worth, I like to have a good "quiet" big bore handgun (take your pick of .44 Special, .45 ACP/Long Colt) handy in case someone does get the drop on us whether we're inside, or in the backyard doing gardening. And the "badguy" could always be something like the two loose dogs that killed our neighbor's dog last Spring.

Otherwise, I really prefer a 16" Lever, in some pistol caliber (more shots and quieter). Standing, my Trapper gives me nose size groups to 25 yards, and the 20" M92 does the same out to 50 yds. The old 870 still does a good job, but is pretty heavy with lots of recoil for the Wife, who prefers a .30 carbine with good softpoints.

Dogs, lights, locks, being aware, and knowing the neighbors does a lot to prevent problems.

I just settled on what I think is the best home defense gun for my wife and I. It's a 20 ga. 870 in junior size. It has an 18.5" barrel and very short stock. The whole thing is only about 36". It's light, short, and easily handled by my wife. The 20 gauge size limits recoil making it easier to shoot. The quick and easy sight system makes it lightning fast and instinctive to point and doesn't need to be aimed through detailed sights like a handgun or rifle. A load of #3 buck at close range is obviously devastating. Follow-up shots are quick. A pump shotgun is very natural to use as I spend more time n the field with a pump shotgun than any other type of weapon. Plus, it has the ability to be used in a "backdoor" situation if there's a disagreeable four-legged something in the yard. Birdshot might be great inside but won't do the job on something big and nasty outside. If needed to travel it stows easily behind the backseat.

Penetration through walls is a concern, but very few effective weapons can totally avoid this problem. If shots need to be taken inside the house it obviously already looks like a life or death situation and I think it's better to err on the side of an effective stopper rather than something that can be contained by drywall. Better to be sure to kill the bad guy and accept the unlikely possibility of an overpenetrating projectile injuring an unintended party. Hopefully, if the buckshot makes it through a bad guy and then through a wall, it won't have enough steam left to do much more damage.

I might be more inclined to keep a lever action loaded in the house if I lived in the country where big predators out by the chicken coop were a concern or something. In any case, a lever action rifle might not be my first choice, but it wouldn't be my last either!

I do have to diagree with the single shot 20 guage...what happens if you misfire/miss/accidentally send a round into the floor? I say this and I love the H&R/NEF single shots. I would vote for a 20 guage punp/auto. I also live on a base, so I really dont have to worry about it, so maybe my opinion is worth every cent it cost. My house/car gun is a .40 S&W Sigma (Glock knock off) it was cheap, its simple powerful and reliable, but it has a terrible trigger..

At close range , 'Across the room', the spread of a shotgun is pretty close to the spread of a rifle bullet. If you can't hit an intruder with a quick unaimed shot from a rifle you won't hit him with a shotgun either.

If a shotgun or rifle is too awkward to haul up and down the hallways consider that you shouldn't be going up and down the hallways. You should be defending yourself and your family not hunting bad guys.

Get to a secure spot where you can cover all approaches, call the cops, wait for the intruders to come to you. That way you have the advantage of the element of surprise.

I read most of this with intrest. I have some advice from some one who spent 26 years as a street cop and who has instructed several hundred folks in selfdefence. I have also owned and tested the 357 carbine:
1. DO NOT use a shot gun (the racking of the slide) to scare an attacker. This gives the attacker your location, armament, and gives up your most important element, that of suprise.
2. The "John Wayne" assualt rifle is PC and very effective and defendable in court.
3. When I tested the 125 gr in my Marlin they were about two to three times more destructive than that load in a hand gun.
4. The use of any 'long' gun for home defence is best when in a 'safe room', not mobile as search the building. This is where the hand gun is safer and more tacticaly acceptable.
Hope this helps,
Jim

Jim, I don't know what street cop would tell you not to let the perp hear a shotgun racking.. as a retired LEO I can tell you that you do in fact want the perp to hear that shotgun racking. The perp will try and leave by the quickest way possible even if its through a closed window. The last thing in the world they want coming at them is a load of buckshot, that when fired in a close proximity disengage arms, legs and if a center mass hit is attained almost in all cases is fatal.

In reality the last thing you ever want to be involved in, is a shooting in your own home, or anywhere for that matter. Yelling out that you have called 911, and re-enforcements are on the way, is another sound they don't want to hear. Believe me, a home intruder/burglar does not want to be found in your home.

Now to the original question by TIMBERWOLF which he did not ask about using a shotgun or any other gun for home defense:

What is your opinion about using lever guns for home protection, particularly those that shoot pistol caliber ammo (.45 L.C. , .44 Mag, 44-40, .357, 38-40, etc.) from a "Trapper length" barrel. I have in mind rural areas in particular where bullet penetration is not necessarily a main consideration. What caliber would you prefer, and what specification would you like in the rifle?

If a Trapper Length lever gun is all I had, then personally I would use one in .45 Colt ie "LC" because of its big fat slow bullets with heavy knock down ability like a good .45 ACP :D I would also set it up with one of these Light Mounts.

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Accessories/Lightmount.jpg
These are available at Wild West Guns (http://www.wildwestguns.com) click on accessories. M6™ Laser Illuminator (not included)

All,

What a great thread. The good, the bad, and the ugly... I just had to get my two cents in.

I agree with Kart29 who posted above. Last year I did just as he did and got a youth model Remmington 870 20 gauge. I put an extended mag on mine and keep number 2 shot in it.

No weapon mentioned on this thread has a better over all blend of weight, length, recoil, reliability, ease of use, capacity and fire power for home defense than this weapon.

If I'm wrong, please school me with additional posts.

BTW, I have a Winchester 94 and would certainly grab it first if I wanted to shoot something 30 or more yards away--but we are talking about home defense here.

Top choice: short barreled shotgun with light target loads. Still must be aimed at indoor distances but less potential for over-penetration.

Let's be honest, firing at another human being in your own residence will be an awesome and terrible event.

Muzzle blast, flash, home construction features, and over-penetration pale to insignificance the instant you decide that deadly force is needed.

Great thread.

Someone mentioned Glaser safety slugs. Be sure to read paragraph 2 on page 5:

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf)

I would use my 336A in .30-30 for HD duties in a heartbeat. Granted, I know my level of training is not what it needs to be with this weapon system but for now I can figure out the cross bolt safety, status of chamber and magazine load out, and follow up shot execution. Another consideration that I will have is calling each shot. Being in a sub-div I pretty much know that I could penetrate into another house / bedroom easily with the Rem 150gr express core-lokt load out. A pistol caliber would also work, but for now it's the .30-30.

I do have a set of electronic muffs sitting on the safe on the 1st deck (1st floor for landlubbers), and if time permits, a twist of the knob and they are on my head, amplifying sounds in stereo.

What with handgun laws, I never leave any handguns out of the safe when no one is home. A long gun left out is another matter though. Living in a 2-story home, either you carry your weapon of choice with you when you head upstairs and lock it up when you leave, or have one handy. For the price of a lever gun I can take the loss in case it's taken and you don't have the legal ramifications of a stolen handgun that was not in a safe. Am I out to lunch with this thinking?

As to TIMBERWOLF's original question way back on July 31, 2003, I also read this write up: The Tactical 30-30 Lever Action Rifle (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=649&highlight=tactical+lever). If the link does not work, you may have to register with www.warriortalk.com (http://www.warriortalk.com/) to read it. Very good article on a carbine length lever action.

I also have my 870P with low recoil OO buck loads, and soon a SxS with the same shot shells will be "handy". I don't know of any birdshot that can penetrate sufficiently (at least 12 inches) to be fully effective and reliable, should you hit your target that is. I did ask this very question recently in this thread (http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001140).

For handguns, my SIGs / 1911s in 9MM, .40S&W, or .45ACP with any of these Ranger-T loads (http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964) should do.

I wouldn't use a rifle for home defense if other options are available. It is simply too unwieldy in a tight spot, say, walking through hallways and getting fast around corners. I know folks love their shotguns for home defense, and they will certainly clean a room and then some, but I prefer a handgun. I have a 9mm Springfield XD for this purpose. It's really got to do with confidence level. The Sprinfield just feels like a natural part of me. -Mykal

In my opinion, the absolute best weapon for home defense is a short-barreled, cylinder bore, pump shotgun with an extended magazine, loaded with about #4 shot.

That said, what stays on my nightstand is the same Glock 23 that I have carried concealed, and shot (practice only) I have no idea how many times, over the past 11 years. It has become second nature to me, don't need to see the sights for the type of shooting home defense would involve (God forbid I should have to), and it's very handy.

Personally, I would not consider a rifle for home defense. They're either too small (rimfires), or too powerful, and very unwieldy. I have a Model 94 in .44 Magnum that's about as handy as a rifle is going to get. Know how many walls that thing would go through?

All of the above in the "in my opinion", and "for what it's worth" department. ;-)

eljay

Montanan,
A person, cop or not, who has any tactical experance or anyone who has ever been a fire fight WILL NOT recommend you do anything to give up your element of suprise, let alone your position and armenent!! Sorry to to burst your bubble, but this 'rack the slide' stuff is pure Hollywood!!! :confused:

For those with questions about penetration in sheet rock, check out Box of Truth. http://www.theboxotruth.com/

These guys do all sorts of fun testing with different weapons and different building materials.

Did you know that at typical room distances, approximately 12 feet muzzle to wall (this would be a very big bedroom as it means you probably are standing with your back to the opposite wall making it a 16 foot by something room, not often built any more in America unless you are Bill Gates), your shot pattern will only be 2.5 to 3.5 inches? Go, check the site out. Rather than talk theory about this, see what someone did to test it. It is an interesting read and very informative.

Collect family quietly, hunker down quietly with cell phone and 911 dispatcher while covering the entrance with; the 870, 1894C .357, GP100 and planning to/ getting out the alternate escape route. Never give away your defensive position until AFTER the shooting starts. Sorry, slide racking is OUT.

Lever Guns For Home Protection: Would You?

..........

There are three ideas, repeated over and over in every gun forum, that really tick me off: 1) Racking a pump shotgun will scare away the big bad man; 2) The XYZ bullet can go through a wall as readily as it does a goblin, and is therefore totally unsuitable for HD; and 3) A shotgun need not be aimed because its pattern spread assures a hit every time. Myth or misunderstanding should not masquerade as informed opinion. All those promulgating same should be cursed and consigned to the outer darkness.
No, wait, there are FOUR things that tick me off: 4) That the WEssonSpringKimberGlockenspiel 9/40/10mm/.45 is the only sensible weapon for a REAL gunman; only THAT brand of gun, ammo, bullet type or style is suitable for self defense; that by extension, all other brands/calibers are sissy guns, and their owners dupes and fools.
No, wait, there are FIVE things that tick me off: 5) that the .22 rimfire, if used in a defensive mode, will result in severe acne, the shunning of the user, and the fall of Western civilization. And besides, if all you have is a .22, you're a wuss, and DESERVE to be framboozled.
No, wait, there are SIX things..................

There are three ideas, repeated over and over in every gun forum, that really tick me off: 1) Racking a pump shotgun will scare away the big bad man; 2) The XYZ bullet can go through a wall as readily as it does a goblin, and is therefore totally unsuitable for HD; and 3) A shotgun need not be aimed because its pattern spread assures a hit every time. Myth or misunderstanding should not masquerade as informed opinion. All those promulgating same should be cursed and consigned to the outer darkness.
No, wait, there are FOUR things that tick me off: 4) That the WEssonSpringKimberGlockenspiel 9/40/10mm/.45 is the only sensible weapon for a REAL gunman; only THAT brand of gun, ammo, bullet type or style is suitable for self defense; that by extension, all other brands/calibers are sissy guns, and their owners dupes and fools.
No, wait, there are FIVE things that tick me off: 5) that the .22 rimfire, if used in a defensive mode, will result in severe acne, the shunning of the user, and the fall of Western civilization. And besides, if all you have is a .22, you're a wuss, and DESERVE to be framboozled.
No, wait, there are SIX things..................

I will admit that I said I thought the best home defense gun is a pump shotgun with a long tube and #4 shot, but I certainly did not mean to imply that one's first move should be to rack the slide. I maybe did imply, by what I said, that I think pumps are more reliable than semi autos. True, I do, but that's just my opinion. However, that's not a debate I'd get into, any more than "best make", "best caliber/gauge", "best load", etc. To each his own, as long as he/she practices with it enough to do the right thing, and do it correctly, should the need ever arise.

eljay

If your choise is the 30-30 try the 125 gr JHP. They are devistating on a human animal and great for 'pests' of all sizes, but not for the 'large' pests up here (moose and bear)! :cool:

A pistol cal lever gun would be good for HD. 38 spec or 44 spec HP from a long barrel will give good velocity with less noise. With a rifle you can also place the bullet precisely and this will help prevent overpenetation. Same for auto pistol calibers.

I like the idea of having a pistol caliber lever action with a current handgun that shoots the same loads. So, until they come out with a 9MM, .40S&W, or .45ACP...


.

A little late in the game here, but I just sold an AK-47 clone and bought a 336W in .30-30 for SHTF survival/home defense. For INSIDE the house, my choices are Beretta 92FS Brigadier, 5" 629Classic with Cor-Bon .44 Spls, or a Taurus 85 2", whichever is closest.

But for defending the back 40, I chose the .30-30 over the AK for a couple reasons.

1. With an AK you can/will be mistaken for a terrorist, especially after 9/11. Come on, walking around with an AK and that 30 rd. mag sticking out? With a Marlin, you're perceived as a good ole boy hunter defending your property.

2. Political correctness. One less attacking point for an anti-gun DA if it gets that far. I didn't use an "assault rifle".

3. In a true SHTF/bug outta Dodge scenario, you can find .30-30 ammo anywhere. Wal-Mart, Mon N Pop stores, etc...

I'm thinking of using the 125 gr. JHP's from Federal or HSM for defense.

It's not called the 'John Wayne assault rifle' for nothing!!! ;)
I load the 125 JHP's and thing they are great for selfdefense and general 'pest' control. Your reasoning on this is correct!!! :)

I knew there were more reasons than I knew to own a levergun!

Here is an excellent column/article written by Gabe Suarez, one of the best tactical/defensive firearms trainers around.

This is what he has to say about the .30-30 levergun as a defensive weapon. This is the article that finally convinced me that switching from the AK to the Marlin .30-30 was a wise choice.

Fighting With A Lever Gun
________________________________________
THE TACTICAL 30-30 LEVER ACTION RIFLE

Ask any student of small arms to name the most typically American rifle and chances are that they will name the .30-30 lever action rifle. Manufactured for over a century by Marlin, Winchester, and others - the lever action invokes images of the Old West. We see Jimmy Stewart in "Winchester '73" smiting the enemies of justice and freedom with his "repeater". We see John Wayne admonishing his adversaries to "fill their hands" as he gallops forward, a stubby Winchester in each hand. And, of course, we see photos of that most American of presidents - Theodore Roosevelt wielding his lever action against all manner of beasties in Africa. This ubiquitous and understated weapon has played a very major role in this country's history.

Today the lever action is most often seen in the hands of close range deer hunters as a brush gun. It is not likely to be the first weapon that comes to our minds when the talk turns to fighting. But make no mistake friends, as a fighting (anti-personnel) weapon, the lever action is just as useful and deadly today, on a lonely stretch of highway in the bad part of town, as it was in the dusty cow towns of the Kansas Territory more than a century ago.

Today a rifle of this sort might be kept in tactical storage in a hall closet, above the hearth, or in the trunk of a car for unexpected social unpleasantries. In such a role the lever action has several advantages over other weapons that are more commonly thought of as fighting tools.

Primarily, the lever action is inexpensive. Used examples in perfect working condition may be had for about a hundred bucks. Even brand new weapons will set you back less than the price of a night on the town for two. Compare that with the price of a more military-like, and hopefully still legal, Sturmgewehr-fighting rifle (If you can find one for sale these days)!

The ammunition (.30-30 Winchester Centerfire) has all the characteristics desirable in a mid-range fighting rifle cartridge. In fact, the ballistics of the .30-30 cartridge are amazingly similar to those for the most specifically designed fighting cartridge of all, the 7.62X39 Russian chambered in the AK-47. Shot for shot, the .30-30 will do everything you could ask from a mid-range tactical rifle. And it will do these things far better than many military weapons will!

Being "sporting guns", lever actions are usually issued with fairly good triggers which are crisp and conducive to hitting. Even if the trigger action is rough on some pieces, it is a simple matter to have it brought up to speed by a gunsmith. Additionally, you'd have to look long and hard to find a gunsmith that isn't familiar with the lever action lock-work. This is certainly more than we can say about the gritty as-issued, or modified triggers of the various SKS, AK, HK etc.

Finally, the lever action rifle is more compact in its 16 inch barrel configuration than most other rifles that might be chosen to fill the role. Equally important in this age of sensitive, touchie-feelie, freedom hating communist politicians, it looks innocent. Don't dismiss this last attribute too easily. In our troubled and ignorant times, juries release violent murderers and rapists because they are not intelligent enough to discern the real facts from the spun fiction. If you live in an Oppressed State, such things as a bayonet lug or a 30 round magazine from East Germany may confuse them enough to change your life's plans...drastically.

The standard .30-30 will suffice as issued for most duties. But enhancement may be undertaken to improve its performance. One area where improvements may be made is the sights. These weapons are issued with the old buckhorn type sights. They will do just fine, but a rear ghost ring aperture sight with its accompanying front sight post will, in my opinion, do much better. These are available from various sources.

My .30-30 carbine has a modified 1903-A3 rear sight whose aperture has been opened up to ghost ring configuration. This rear sight, coupled with a ROBAR front sight at the end of the barrel, works very well indeed.

Also useful is a leather butt-cuff. This keeps extra ammunition on the weapon itself. This may compromise the concept of the light carbine, but if you have to grab the rifle and run out of your house at 0'dark 30 one night to repel the Visigoths, you'll be glad the extra ammo was there. I know that I was always glad to have a few extras!

Winchester still provides their lever action rifle in the "Wrangler" 16 inch barrel configuration. Marlin once made a similar model called the "Marauder". If your fighting lever gun is too long, it is a simple matter to have your excess barrel lopped off at the local gunsmithy (make certain it remains at least 16" long to keep "you know who" away). Such a conversion will greatly enhance handling, as well as keep the spirit of the compact weapon.

I thus modified an old Marlin 336 rifle that I rescued from the used gun rack at the local gun store. Total cost of the entire package was less than two hundred bucks (including a nice 4X Leupold scope, which I eventually mounted on another rifle!). It is short, light, hard hitting, rugged, cheap to replace if necessary...and well, it looks innocent. I obtained a supply of hunting grade PMC 150 grain .30-30 ammo and tested the combative utility of the carbine via a series of rifle exercises from Suarez International's Rifle Gunfighting school. The drills involve both close range reactive shooting as well as longer distances possible in combative encounters. For purposes of uniformity, all drills commenced from the Rhodesian ready position - that is gun held loosely at the belt level with the muzzle depressed to the offside.

Head shots were fired from the shoulder at 25 meters. Body shots were next at 50 meters, 75 meters, and 100 meters. Multiple targets were shot at 50 meters distance as well as up close at 7 meters. Close quarters targets were engaged both with snap shots from the shoulder, as well as from the Close Contact CQB position. Approximately 200 rounds were fired to get an overall impression of the lever action rifle in the anti-personnel role. Our findings were that there is very little that a realistic rifleman (acting as an individual - not a member of a military rifle squad) can expect from his weapon that the lever action cannot deliver.

If you are in need of an economic and effective rifle that offers as many advantages as a single rifleman can use within "defensive" or "urban" conflict distances, take a serious look at the lever action carbine. I think you'll like what you see.

GABRIEL SUAREZ
SUAREZ INTERNATIONAL, INC.
303 E. Gurley St. Suite 461 - Prescott, AZ 86301
Office 928-776-4492 FAX 928-776-8218
http://www.suarezinternational.com