I was allways taught in church that the cross was made from the Dogwood tree, After Christ's cruxificion, the Dogwood tree was cursed, so that it would grow so twisted and bent, that it could never be used for a cross again.
However I can't find any text in the bible to confirm this.
The only tre I can find that was cursed was the fig tree that did not bear fruit, so it was cursed, then died and withered away.
Can someone help me out with this one. Book and verse would help greatly. Otherwise I will have to reconsider many biblical "facts" I was always taught.

Thanks,
John

John,

I don't find any reference to the dogwood tree, or the curse you mention. I've looked through about every conceivable translation and done word, phrase and subject searches and come up wanting. (good resource for online bible versions with search function http://www.crosswalk.com)

Actually, your reference to the curse on the dogwood tree is the first I've ever heard of such. Sorry, I can't give any light on your question.... although I've tried.

Perhaps someone else has the answer.

God Bless,

Marshall, thanks for getting back with me.
I was raised in a Southern Missionary Baptist Church.
I was always taught this story of the Dogwood tree, the center of the flower pod (red) represented the spike holes in Christ's hands, and the brown streaks on the leaves represented the blood running from our Lord's hands.
I guess this has been a very entertaining story.
My dad is an ordained Baptist minister, he has preached this sermon many times,now it looks like he was told the same "story" from childhood, he looked through his concordance books (bibles) and other manuals trying to find the bottom of this.
The website will be very helpful, thank you for this one.
Also, thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to look for this.
Does anyone know what tree the cross was actually made from?

Thanks again,
John

John,

Two of our elk hunting partners here in the Panhandle of Idaho are Missionary Baptist preachers. (We have great fun at camp with usually four different ministers and the rest of us ranging from Evangelical/Penticostle, Southern Baptist, Catholic, and Methodist all thrown together for a week or ten days! Some REALLY interesting campfire discussions!)

I'll ask them concerning the story you relate.... see if they have any knowlege of this entertaining story as you call it.

More when I find something out!

God Bless

Marshall, Now that would have to be a campfire conversation! I was raised Baptist, but can no longer go along with it, I have joined the Methodist church, it seems to suit me better. I still have a problem with organized religions, probably always will. I seem to be questioning things more and more. I am not sure if this is good or bad.
My faith in God is only getting stronger and stronger.
If I told why, I would either be called a fanatic, or just plain dumb. but i can handle that :D
I know what a difference the Lord has made for me through prayer, no matter what "stories" I have learned, I know this to be the truth.

John

Indeed!

The Scriptures instruct us not to forsake the assembling ourselves with other believers. However, there is a big difference between a relationship with our Lord and the faith required to do so, and with "organized religion".

Faith is instituted and given by God, religion is an institution of traditions by man. Our Lord had very strong words regarding traditions of men, and the idle words that accompany such.

Dig deep into His Word, and you'll grow, as we all do. So then, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

Keep looking up! God Bless,

I've hunted with similar groups over the years, mostly variations of fundimentalist churches. makes for some long, heated and interesting discussions after supper.
What you guys need to add to the mix is a heathen. That way when the other guys get a bit more then intense they can focus on the heathen.
I'm lucky in that I get an on going religious education almost daily from a group of clergy. I'm get a Rabbi, Catholic Priest, Greek Orthodox Priest, Moslem Imam, the preacher from the Baptist Church across the street, a Morman (elder)?, a Methodist or Episcopalian or Presbertarian? from around the corner. It's interesting watching these guys interact. If there's time I'll put on the coffee, ask some questions and listen.
The head preacher (Jimmy) at the Baptist church across the street is retiring this fall. I've been trying to convince Jimmy that he needs to open up an out reach chapel at the shooting range. Jimmy could hold sevices between relays at the matches, sort of a 'Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition' service. Jimmy and the rest of us wouldn't miss church and we'd all get to shoot in the matches.
Jim

Jim,

What you mention is a real frustration for me. Virtially all of the organized shooting sports in our region meet, and shoot on Sunday. Sunday morning to be exact. It wouldn't be too bad if they met and shot in the afternoon, but the matches are over and powder-burning over by the time I get out of church.

I wish the shooting fraternity would change their days of competition to Saturdays so more of us could and would participate.

Oh well, there I go again. If they moved the shooting matches to Saturday, then we'd supset the Saturday Sabboth keepers as well. :p Hmmm.... a range chapel.... haven't thought about that one!

God Bless

Marshall
I've only had one day a week off, for the past thirty years, Sunday. I get my shooting, shopping, house work, yard work, etc. done on that day.
To get my spiritual needs taken care of I do at least one and sometimes three spiritual meetings per week. Most of them are discussion and prayer, but classes and prayer, and meditation and prayer. Plus that gang of clergy I have the privilidge chatting with every week.
I sort of figure we all are trying to speak to the same guy and get to the same place, any of the clergy knows one heck of a lot more then I.
Marshall, you take care.
Jim

The word of God is silent as concerning the type of wood used to make the cross. Therefore, it is of no importance to the believer.

TPM, I agree the type of tree has no real importance, however, what is important is this, since finding out the "dogwood tree" was not based in fact, and I have taken it as fact for all my life, I am now having to consider how much more I have beleived is not the truth.
If it were related as a feel good story that would have been one thing, but to teach something as fact, and it is not. It really makes me wonder what else is not right. That is the problem. :( Lots of reading and thinking to do!

John

Understood. Well, one thing I was taught from a youth was that you cannot love someone else if you don't first love yourself. Of course, this is nowhere to be found in scripture and is completely untrue. This is why we must strictly adhere to the word of God and test everything by it.

Hebrews 5:14 - But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Halfbreed: Read the Bible for yourself and you can find out about these things for your self! I don't think that the Bible says what kind of wood the cross is made from. Stay safe and God Bless!

Wallace, you are right, as is every one else here. Only I can really discern the truth for myself, with the Lords guidance.
My wife and I have a really good bible study group to study with. A really good Sunday School teacher, she was also my Jr. high school science teacher. I just wished class then was as interesting as Sunday School is.
what is really aggrivating is this, a poor spiritual knowledge foundation.

Just the facts mam, just the facts. Detective Friday

John

Marshall, Now that would have to be a campfire conversation! I was raised Baptist, but can no longer go along with it, I have joined the Methodist church, it seems to suit me better. I still have a problem with organized religions, probably always will. I seem to be questioning things more and more. I am not sure if this is good or bad.
My faith in God is only getting stronger and stronger.
If I told why, I would either be called a fanatic, or just plain dumb. but i can handle that :D
I know what a difference the Lord has made for me through prayer, no matter what "stories" I have learned, I know this to be the truth.

John
Halfbreed: I know where you are coming from. I was born and raised catholic but many years ago fell away because of several of their teachings that I could not find reference to in the Bible. After visiting and spending time with other denominations I still felt I was missing something. Although I never consciously fell away from God there were many years that I have not actively sought His Word and Guidance. I too have experienced some things that many would think I were nuts if I talked of them but I do believe these experiences were of God and that he is very much alive and as active today as He was in the Old and New Testaments. Most times we're just not looking. When I am with others and the subject of God comes up I witness my experiences and let the chips fall where they may. I am still in a quantry as to how to have fellowship with other christians which the Bible says is integral in having a relationship with God and to be a part of His body in Christ. Organized religion with its own rules and having to apply and having to be voted into their fold just does'nt seem right but I feel compelled to join with fellow christians and seek God the Father and His Son through the Holy Spirit. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks, Rob

Rob, Nice to meet you. I can certainly relate with what you are going through. My dad was/still is an ordained Baptist minister, I have seen too many times when he was troubled by the churches, the association, and members of the church.They managed to drive him away for nearly 25 years.That's how/when I came to the opinion if this is what it is like to be a Christian I can do without. He is now a member of a Non-denominational church, and is very happy.
I, Myself however, I fell completely away from God for a long time, I did some stupid things, became involved in some things"clubs" i wish I had never done. However that is the past. If God can forgive me, then in time I can too.
For a long time my wife and I both had a craving, longing, hunger however you want to look at it. That just could not be filled with anything else.
I had a serious back injury, i dealt with the pain through alot of pain medicine, all prescription. 2 surgeries, I was looking for a wheelchair. things were tough.
Finally I went to the Lord in prayer, there were many others praying for me that I knew nothing about, immediatly I could see results, I could stand better, taller, longer. The pain started seriously going away. I have always had a high tolerance for pain, but then it was really going away. One night I had a dream, my wife and I were walking down a dirt road, there was a crowd of people, we walked into the crowd to see what was going on, the crowd parted, and Jesus rubbed my upper left arm and said, No more pain. Even in my dream I could feel the pain just going away. It just faded right out. i have been able to do things I had not been able to do in 6 years. will never be as strong as I use to be. I will never be a towboater again, and I do miss it.
But this could only be explained as the Lord's work!
We live in a small rural community, our church regurarly has between 35-45 people. It feels real, down to earth. It is not a fashion show. We checked out many different churches. But none of them actually felt like home.
I like some of the old traditions, I do not like the screaming bible thumpers, begging you to give your life to the Lord. And all your money. Either way it is for the wrong reason.
We just finally found home, Now it is looking like we will have to leave it so I will be able to find work. sometime within the next year or sooner, this will be hard.
However, I know we will be able to find another church home. As long as you can feel the Lord in the church, you know you are home.
I hope this has helped anyone looking, or waiting to find a church home. It is never too late.

John

As a botanist, among other things, I doubt that dogwoods ever grew in and around the middle east. I could find out for you all, but thats not the point, is it? The symbolism of the story is the important part. Not only that , but "....all things are possible."
RIght?
olyeller

John,
I know where your coming from, about the dogwood tree, I myself have never found any biblical truth, that the legend of the dogwood tree is true, and unless I get bible proof, of legend I won't believe it. But the reason I'm writing you is because, there are many people that teaches things they were raised up on, not knowing that what their teaching on is false. Like the belief of Trinity, the teachings of Trinity are a false doctrine, because I have found from the old testament to the new, that Jesus was God, and is God. But people today and years ago, are using the bible to support their own personal prejudice, they form themself an opinion without knowing the facts. People take what others tell them, without even checking to see if it's true. People don't understand the teachings of the bible, so they just teach what they think it is, not knowing that them teaching lies, that they will be held accountable for it on the day of judgment. And I have found many things that people have told me to be lies, and false doctrine. I guess that's why God has called me to preach, to get the truth out. But my advice to you, is that when someone tells you something have them to give you bible for it, and than go study it out for yourself, you will be amazed of what all God will reveal to you.

Teresa









I was allways taught in church that the cross was made from the Dogwood tree, After Christ's cruxificion, the Dogwood tree was cursed, so that it would grow so twisted and bent, that it could never be used for a cross again.
However I can't find any text in the bible to confirm this.
The only tre I can find that was cursed was the fig tree that did not bear fruit, so it was cursed, then died and withered away.
Can someone help me out with this one. Book and verse would help greatly. Otherwise I will have to reconsider many biblical "facts" I was always taught.

Thanks,
John

John,
I know where your coming from, about the dogwood tree, I myself have never found any biblical truth, that the legend of the dogwood tree is true, and unless I get bible proof, of legend I won't believe it. But the reason I'm writing you is because, there are many people that teaches things they were raised up on, not knowing that what their teaching on is false. Like the belief of Trinity, the teachings of Trinity are a false doctrine, because I have found from the old testament to the new, that Jesus was God, and is God. But people today and years ago, are using the bible to support their own personal prejudice, they form themself an opinion without knowing the facts. People take what others tell them, without even checking to see if it's true. People don't understand the teachings of the bible, so they just teach what they think it is, not knowing that them teaching lies, that they will be held accountable for it on the day of judgment. And I have found many things that people have told me to be lies, and false doctrine. I guess that's why God has called me to preach, to get the truth out. But my advice to you, is that when someone tells you something have them to give you bible for it, and than go study it out for yourself, you will be amazed of what all God will reveal to you.

Teresa

Welcome Teresa to shootersforum. We hope and pray that you will not take offense and run away if some of us politely disagree with you over the Trinity. I look forward to some thoughtful discussions with you over this issue.

Your's in Christ's love

Willis

Hello everyone,
First i want to thank everyone who has written back to me both through the forum and those that have gotten back with me through p.m.'s.
This "legend" of the dogwood tree, seems to be just that!
I personally can not find anything in chapter or verse, nor has anyone else been able to show me anything.
The really hurtful part is, this was taught with so much emphasis as the biblical truth, Several years ago, our small country church, needed a small childrens sunday school teacher, my wife and I were enlisted to teach this class, we told everyone up front we needed to learn the bible before we could teach it. And we needed alot of help as well.
To make a long story short, we never got the help we needed, and we soon found ourselves not going to church, sometimes months on end, then finally quitting alltogether.
Now we are back in church, like we know we should be. Many things have changed in our life for the better. We are still not able to teach, but at least we are in a learning atmosphere.
My big problem is that now I question everything a little too much. I have faith in the LORD, but that is about all.
Not too long ago, I was told by a particular preacher that I was doomed and going to ****, because I was not reading the King James Bible, When I asked him what bible the King James was translated from, he had no answer for this.
I am not teeter tottering on the issue of the LORD, But I have reservations on many of the churches themselves, when some of their teachings can't be found by book and verse.

John

Welcome to the forum and to the debate, Teresa our sister. I haven't got time to set out the scriptural warrant for the doctrine of Trinity right now, and I haven't worked out how to condense what I want to write into a small enough space for a forum post. And if my mother-in-law finds me hunched over the computer on Christmas Eve, I'll be disinherited.
The early church took on board the trinitarian understanding of God precisely because it IS implicit in scripture, and because our Lord disclosed to the disciples the relationship between Himself, the Father and Spirit as one in three.
So 308shtr or someone else might start the exegesis ball rolling with a separate thread, or I will after Christmas, and we can all chip in.
What do you shoot/hunt when you're not preaching?
God bless you
Richard

John,
I know where your coming from, about the dogwood tree, I myself have never found any biblical truth, that the legend of the dogwood tree is true, and unless I get bible proof, of legend I won't believe it. But the reason I'm writing you is because, there are many people that teaches things they were raised up on, not knowing that what their teaching on is false. Like the belief of Trinity, the teachings of Trinity are a false doctrine, because I have found from the old testament to the new, that Jesus was God, and is God. But people today and years ago, are using the bible to support their own personal prejudice, they form themself an opinion without knowing the facts. People take what others tell them, without even checking to see if it's true. People don't understand the teachings of the bible, so they just teach what they think it is, not knowing that them teaching lies, that they will be held accountable for it on the day of judgment. And I have found many things that people have told me to be lies, and false doctrine. I guess that's why God has called me to preach, to get the truth out. But my advice to you, is that when someone tells you something have them to give you bible for it, and than go study it out for yourself, you will be amazed of what all God will reveal to you.

Teresa

Teresa, I want to answer your comments on the
Trinity without wasting a lot of bandwidth on this site. This means that we should keep our posts relatively short and to the point making points and refuting them as with as little verbage as possible.

To start, I am pleased to see that you believe that Jesus is God. For any who have seen Jesus have seen the Father.

To quote Paul;

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2Co 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
2Co 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
1Ti 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

And to quote Jesus;

Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

If Jesus is God and the Lord (God) is the Spirit, then the Spirit is also God. Jesus did not say Baptise in the name of the Father alone, or in the name of the Son alone, or in the name of the Holy Spirit alone, but in the name of all three.

Yours in Christ
Willis

I have heard this one all my life as well,I dont think the type tree is important.
When you start nit picking small things like this you start having problems doubting other things you have been taught.
Some things are obvious others are not.
The Bible tells us there are mysteries in it that we will not understand or find out.
Doesnt shake my belief one bit if the type tree is wrong.
I can tell you of several tradtions that are celebrated that are not totally correct.
One is Christmas,we are taught Jesus was born about Dec 25th,but if you read of the weather and other things at his birth you will find with research that weather doesnt exist in December in Israel.It is more likely that He was concieved around Dec 25 and His actual birth was the end of September.
But that doesnt change my beliefs.
Jack

As for the trinity there is plenty of Biblical evidence to support the truth of it.
And one other point,and if I get banned so be it,but there is nothing scriptural regarding female preachers.
Teachers yes,preachers no.
Jack

Good discussion.

God's word is compared to a two-edged sword (Gods word=God sword) but I had trouble understanding the reference. A two-edged sword is dangerous and the most difficult sword to master. Common soldiers were given single-edged swords; we are called to be children. Sons of the King are called to handle Godsword with care and to practice handling Godsword daily.

May God richly bless you all!
-91

Here are just a few beliefs that are contrary to Biblical teachings:

That there is a trinity.

That you have a soul.

That you go to Heaven or **** when you die.

That christmas is a holy day.

That Christ was crucified on Friday.

That Christ rose on Sunday.

That there is ONE God.

That Elija or Enoch went to Heaven.

That the Israelites were Jews.

If you will truly study your Bibles, you will find ALL of these beliefs to be false. I do not intend to start any arguments although I'm sure that there are those who would like to argue these points. The best way to learn the truth is to first admit that you know nothing.

Here are just a few beliefs that are contrary to Biblical teachings:

That there is a trinity.

That you have a soul.

That you go to Heaven or **** when you die.

That christmas is a holy day.

That Christ was crucified on Friday.

That Christ rose on Sunday.

That there is ONE God.

That Elija or Enoch went to Heaven.

That the Israelites were Jews.

If you will truly study your Bibles, you will find ALL of these beliefs to be false. I do not intend to start any arguments although I'm sure that there are those who would like to argue these points. The best way to learn the truth is to first admit that you know nothing.

These are some interesting comments.

I don't know much, but I do know how to search my Bible.

I have already discussed the Trinity and will gladly expand on those comments if you would like.

In regards to our having a soul, there are 39 references to the soul in the KJV New Testament. Just one example, to quote our Lord:

Mt 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

If my Lord says there is a soul then I am satisfied that there is one.

In regards to there being one true God:

Mk 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

As far as Elija going to heaven; Where do you think he went when the chariot took him away? Where did he come from when he appeared with Moses at Jesus' side on the mountain?

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

And Enoch.

Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Just where did God take him?

Jew is a corruption of JUDAH one of the two nations which descended from Isreal.

Jesus said that there is a ****. Or, do you doubt Him?

I was taught as a boy that it was from the: "Gharkad" tree !

And the source was NOT the "Traditional" Bible but the KORAN!

Quote:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

(This is incidentally >> A Slogan and "Mantra" of the Islamic Resistance Movement)

Deriving from the perception (valid or not) that Christ was condemed to die on the Cross by the "leadership" Jews of his period.
The Tree that yeilded the wood from which the Cross was fashioned, was deemed to be a "Protector and Shield" of some fashion to the Hebrews.

You good readers need to know that:

I am NOT a Muslim
But a JEW!
A Messianic JEW!
(We are Jews that have accepted YESHUA [Jesus] as "The Messiah")

My Rabbis taught us not only the "TORAH",...... but of the New Testament, Koran, and other religious writings.
They believed that having knowledge about the beliefs and faith of other religions, would only strengthen our conviction in our own.
Knowledge is Power
(Also a bit of "know your foe")


So don't rush to change those Match dates from Sunday to My Sabbath!


Shalom my Gentile Friends.
renman@concentric.net

Renaissance,


Thank you for your testimony sir! Don't mean to get off topic here, but just wanted to say that it is very moving a Messianic Jew. I hope that the Gospel contiues to spread among Jews and Muslims alike. I hope we all keep "coming home" to salvation through Christ Jesus. Peace to you my friend. Chris

Meant to say that it is moving to hear from our Messianic Jewish brothers/sisters, and that it is a powerful testimony indeed. Goofed up my post above, which is typical for me!

Welcome Renman! Pull up a log and stay for a while. I am active on some other sites with Messianic Jews and have the utmost respect for your beliefs. You are a very welcome addition to our community.

Just want to show why we have disagreements.Clear the water not muddy it up.I pretty much stick to King James revised version.(have others for ref.)Soul=psuche(greek)used 105 times in N.T. Translated soul 58 times,life 40 times,mind 3 times,heart 1 time and us 1 time.One Greek word is translated to differnt English words (this is common)The only way to under stand its meaning is in the context of the perticular sentence.Read your verse replace soul with life or heart and see if it works the same.Our opinions may differ.This does not put us against each other it does put us in the same boat.We are still brothers in Christ,we should still love one another.We are together in this life waiting for Jesus.We should be tolerant of each other and stick together.

Please consider this......there are differences in the ways that we worship.....and believe. There can be only ONE truth.

A bit of history....as the European countries conquered and colonized weaker countries and peoples, they imposed their religion on the conquered. As those conquered were usually illiterate, they had no understanding of the Bible. In most cases they were not allowed to own one. Because of this, they often continued to practice their original pagan beliefs behind the backs of the conquerors, even at the risk of death. This frustrated the priests of "christianity". So, in order to gather the savages into the fold, they compromised. They allowed pagan practices side by side with their brand of "christianity". The result is what you see today in the thousands of denominations that lay claim to the "truth". This is still happening as "christianity" continues to be spread around the world.

Jesus warned against this. You will find His warning in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. It appears THREE times....Jesus is making a point.

Worshipping the Lord is not a "do your own thing" proposition. He gave explicit instructions in his teachings. A variance is exactly that...a variance. The Bible is not about baby Jesus lying in a manger or Christ on a donkey.....it is a manual for life dictated by the Creator.

Look at the way we worship. We have made up our own religion,....to fit our wants and needs. We violate His dietary laws, we worship on the wrong days, we invent our own Holy days, we bring pagan practices into our church buildings, we even celebrate satanic holidays. For these reasons, we will be subjected to Christ's correction.....the tribulations. These will be the worst times in the history of man. Look at what Hitler did to the people he did not like and multiply that by ten... or a hundred times. During these times,(3 1/2 years) man will suffer as never before. Most will die terrible deaths.

But there is good news. Christ will return and install His government, putting an end to this madness we now live in....then the knowledge (truth) will flow. This will be a new beginning for man....and the now decaying universe.

Please consider this......there are differences in the ways that we worship.....and believe. There can be only ONE truth.

A bit of history....as the European countries conquered and colonized weaker countries and peoples, they imposed their religion on the conquered. As those conquered were usually illiterate, they had no understanding of the Bible. In most cases they were not allowed to own one. Because of this, they often continued to practice their original pagan beliefs behind the backs of the conquerors, even at the risk of death. This frustrated the priests of "christianity". So, in order to gather the savages into the fold, they compromised. They allowed pagan practices side by side with their brand of "christianity". The result is what you see today in the thousands of denominations that lay claim to the "truth". This is still happening as "christianity" continues to be spread around the world.

Jesus warned against this. You will find His warning in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. It appears THREE times....Jesus is making a point.

Worshipping the Lord is not a "do your own thing" proposition. He gave explicit instructions in his teachings. A variance is exactly that...a variance. The Bible is not about baby Jesus lying in a manger or Christ on a donkey.....it is a manual for life dictated by the Creator.

Look at the way we worship. We have made up our own religion,....to fit our wants and needs. We violate His dietary laws, we worship on the wrong days, we invent our own Holy days, we bring pagan practices into our church buildings, we even celebrate satanic holidays. For these reasons, we will be subjected to Christ's correction.....the tribulations. These will be the worst times in the history of man. Look at what Hitler did to the people he did not like and multiply that by ten... or a hundred times. During these times,(3 1/2 years) man will suffer as never before. Most will die terrible deaths.

But there is good news. Christ will return and install His government, putting an end to this madness we now live in....then the knowledge (truth) will flow. This will be a new beginning for man....and the now decaying universe.
You would be right,the truth does exist.It does not need our understanding,we do need it.Thats why discussions are important.However if anyone thinks you can get there they need to wonder why so many differnt churches.I have 13 English translations here with me some are hardback some on CD,they all read a little differnt.I realize the kind of effort translators have put into this,great job.I have walked through the museums and looked closely at the bibles on display.To get the book you read did not just happen.It has been an ongoing work for a very long time,people have even been burnt alive for this work.Great job,but its unfinished,our translations are very good,not perfect.We will not get there till Jesus returns and sets it right.Our books will not take us there we need Messiah for this.

I found this poem about it will see if I can findmore.THE DOGWOOD TREE
When Christ was on earth, the dogwood grew
To a towering size with a lovely hue.
Its branches were strong and interwoven
And for Christ's cross its timbers were chosen.Being distressed at the use of the wood
Christ made a promise which still holds good:http://www.mamarocks.com/pet23.gif"Not ever again shall the dogwood grow
To be large enough for a tree, and so
Slender and twisted it shall always be
With cross-shaped blossoms for all to see.http://www.mamarocks.com/pet23.gifThe petals shall have bloodstains marked brown
And in the blossom's center a thorny crown.
All who see it will think of Me,
Nailed to a cross from a dogwood tree.
Protected and cherished this tree shall be.
A reflection to all of My agony.

http://www.javaforjesus.com/morelegend.html

http://www.promiseofgod.com/dogwood/

http://www.rosebriar.uk.com/greetings/holiday/easter/dogwood.html

http://www.geocities.com/havegrind39752/the_dogwood_tree.htm

Sure Shot, Thanks for the web sites. These are so close to what I remember, that these may be the actual stories I was told. It has been a long time.
I also want to thank all you others who have taken the time to look into this for me. In all the referance books I have looked through lately, I am totally unable to find anything else on it.

Thanks for all the help,
John

Please don't find this irreverent, but the whole argument sounds soo much like th "bad guns" thing.
Some mis-guided person was just trying to show that the Lord's wrath lasts a long time and one should not do things that displease Him. That, however, is from the "wrath of an angry God" God rather than from the ".. love your brother like yourself." God. On the face of it JESUS would have never blamed the tree. Jesus the Christ would never have put a curse on a tree. Trees don't crucify people, people crucify people.

Please don't find this irreverent, but the whole argument sounds soo much like th "bad guns" thing.
Some mis-guided person was just trying to show that the Lord's wrath lasts a long time and one should not do things that displease Him. That, however, is from the "wrath of an angry God" God rather than from the ".. love your brother like yourself." God. On the face of it JESUS would have never blamed the tree. Jesus the Christ would never have put a curse on a tree. Trees don't crucify people, people crucify people.

Mark11:12-14 Thank goodness it wasn't all fig trees!

Those dogwood trees made some mighty fine slingshot prongs for me when I was a kid. If there was any curse involved, it was on the local wildlife.

Poems like this and gospel music have done much damage to the true message that Christ brought to humanity as they play on the emotions and deny the truth. Could they possibly be tools of Satan? As you should well know, Satan will take a bit of truth and twist it into a big lie. He is a very powerful being....in fact,the Bible states that he is the god of this world. Scary, huh?

Misunderstandings are a biggie,they didnt take his life,he laid it down.He wasnt defeated,he was and is the winner.He didnt lose anything,he gained everything.

The dogwood, Cornus florida, is indigenous to eastern North America. The Romans wouldn't have known a dogwood tree from a paloverde tree, unless the Vikings were over here at least 1200 years earlier than some believe. :p

The legend of the dogwood is just that....a legend...it has no Biblical basis. It derives from the appearance of the dogwood tree, twisted, and the blossom that resembles a cross and crown of thorns. There is a poem and small crosses of dogwood are often sold as momentos...another "commercialization." ;)

As to some other questions raised about "truths" not found in the Bible
That there is a trinity.

This one is based on the fact that the "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible. The "Persons" of the Trinity are. God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Problem is not that the Trinity is Not mentioned, but what exactly the Trinity refers to. One answer was modalism...a heresy... Three different modes of God's self-revelation. Early attempts at "explaining" the Trinity used Greek Philosophy to express what many, most Christians experience...The Oneness of God ...and the self-revelation of God in Jesus the Christ, and the Spirit experience after his Crucifixion. Mathematics, three-in-One, nor modalism answer the questions sufficiently.

That you have a soul. mmmm. The old Testament suggests it, but the major basis was that the teaching of "immortality" is taught in the scriptures. BUT immortality, the concept of something in the human life that continues after death, the soul, is basically a greek Philosophical concept. Now, before you jump to condemn it, remember that John's Gospel talks about the "pre-existence of the Christ...from the beginning of Creation. The Greeks believed in the ongoing-continuity of goodness...a soul, that was linked to the "completion" of human being, not fully realized in "mortal" life. Resurrection is an entirely different matter...it is the giving of life anew by God, the Creator of life and all living things. Problem is though...if this is life given anew, how is it related to life already lived and now ceased to live? The Jews believed in Sheol...where all souls go...not as punishment. The concept of punishment and ****...comes from the teaching of Jesus related to Gehenna...the dump outside of Jerusalem, continually fed by garbage...the fires of **** were like it...as long as you continually fed things with sin..the separation from God was eternal...because nothing sinful can stand or abide in the presence of God, who is without Sin. Sin cannot abide in the Presence of One who is without Sin.

That you go to Heaven or **** when you die. Again, Sheol is mentioned in the Old Testament...all go there upon death,the Fires of **** in the New Testament.

That christmas is a holy day. Christmas was not celebrated in the early Christian Church...remember, they expected the immediate Second-Coming of Jesus. Only earthly King's birthdays were celebrated with pomp. As the centuries passed, the birth of Jesus became more prominent. The birth stories appear to counter those who said Jesus never lived...or was HUMAN. What was celebrated was the Resurrection of Jesus, God's Vindication of Jesus' life and death. The Gospels that mention the birth of Jesus are Matthew and Luke. both much later than the Gospel of Mark, which has it's own problems regarding the resurrection, as many early biblical scrolls omit the resurrection appearances of the last chapter and verses of Mark. In Massachusetts, Christmas celebrations were against the law...thank you, O great religious freedom seeking-Pilgrims...of course you were free to believe, as long as you believed as they did...thus, Rhode Island and Roger Williams and the baptists, Maryland and the Catholics of Lord Baltimore, and Pennsylvania and William Penn and the Quakers....Actually, it wasn't until well into the twentieth century when the law was repealed by and enlightened Massachusetts legislature. ;)

That Christ was crucified on Friday. mmm. doesn't say Friday...says that the day following the crucifixion/death was Sabbath...women came with spices to prepare the body of Jesus, after the Sabbath...on the first day of the week....days in Hebrew are calculated from Sundown to sundown, rather than "clock-time." The Passover celebration would have been Thursday evening...since no criminal would have been kept on the cross for the Sabbath, or the women couldn't prepare the b ody on the Sabbath... the body of Jesus was removed after death, or before sundown, and laid in a tomb, hence Friday, following the Passover meal celebration, Since the Sabbath begins Friday evening....see below... Actually there is no Monday, Tuesday etc. mentioned in the Bible, come to think of it...these are derived elsewhere...some teutonic days ...particularly Thors-day...It's really either the Hebrew days or the Aramaic days by name...not these western depictions of days and their names.

That Christ rose on Sunday. Again, says he rose on the first day of the week..Sunday assumed, three days in the tomb. Friday, Saturday, Sunday...like...first day of the week (Sunday) going back (Saturday) the Sabbath, crucified and taken down from the Cross (Friday). Actually, Christians celebrate Sunday as a day of Resurrection, a little Easter, if you will, not a Sabbath, as do the Hebrews/Jews. Sabbath is last day, a day of rest or worship depending on whether you emphasize the Ten Commandment order in Exodus 20, or Deuteronomy 5. or the two orders of Creation in Genesis 1 or Genesis 2 (a day of rest ,or a day of worship).

That there is ONE God. ahhh. again, technically "correct." there were many gods, but ONLY One worthy of WORSHIP according to the Israelites! ;) The Israelites did not deny there were other gods. They often went running after them, to their own detriment. (Solomon and the gods of his wives) We, today, worship many gods...money, fame, position, power, knowledge, being-right, etc...but... I would contend, there is ONLY ONE God worthy of Worship, the others don't much matter!

That Elija or Enoch went to Heaven. ahh again technically correct...says he ascended into the heavens... now...where is heaven? up and **** down? again...if at the south pole where is UP? "UP" in relation to what? Heaven is not so much a PLACE, as a RELATIONSHIP... with God, in Christian teaching. And is heaven LIKE earth? If so, will my mother, who died at 40, be younger than me, who is 66?? Do you age in Heaven?? Oh dear, what matters is do you want to live life with God or without God? Anything without God is **** to me...and being with God is Heaven, whether begun on earth or continued after death as God's Gift.

That the Israelites were Jews. ...oh dear..."Jews" are not mentioned in Scripture, it's a modern term....usually imposed by Christians.... who berate and resent Israelites as "God-killers" or because they are people of money...often. Thanks to the Kindly Christians of the Medieval times who being forbidden by the Scriptures to charge interest (usery) for money, they forced the Jews to become the bankers (Rothschilds) yet dealt with them, but didn't get their hands dirty in the process...

actually, I like old John Wesley's approach myself..If your heart is as mine, then give me your hand as a brother (and/or sister). or ...As to the things which do not strike at the heart of the Christianity, we think, and let think. hehe, but of course all of this will not convince someone against their will anymore than a reasoned argument will win over anyone who chooses to disregard rational thought (though many will use even Common-Sense to dethrone common sense.)
RugerCal480- (aka one retired United Methodist Clergy-person, who doesn't know everything, yet...but Scripturally hopes one day to know even as I am known.... giggle).
Thanks to Marshall and the Stanton's for the Forum and their patience with all of us. Marlin owners or otherwise :)

Ooops! I forgot...there are a few other things not mentioned in the Scriptures (The Bible)...yep, that's right, the Bible isn't mentioned in the Scriptures...when Paul talks about the scriptures he is talking about the old Testament writings...not the New....Do you think Paul would have allowed any of his letters to be collected if he thought they would have been equated with Torah? or the Nebi'im (the prophets)... okay, okay how about like Rolex watches, SUVs, Marlin guns, or any kind of guns, etc. I would be more than happy to help anyone wishing to live not only by the Bible, but also without anything not found in the Bible...I always want to help people stay "religious." :D
Course, that would include others things like democracy (since the Bible presumes a Theocracy...rule by God); and Second Amendment rights since there is only a Second Commandment, and always being obedient to earthly rulers, however bad they are (oooo like the Clintons too???...yup! NO exceptions there), since as Paul says, they rule by a kind of Divine Right...duhhh...oh yeah...there's lots more...need I continue?
mmm...I DO LIKE discussion and abhor arguments... :D
didja notice how poorly I type?? Sorry bout that....computers aren't "scriptural" either.

[QUOTE=RugerCal480]

That the Israelites were Jews. ...oh dear..."Jews" are not mentioned in Scripture, it's a modern term....usually imposed by Christians.... who berate and resent Israelites as "God-killers" or because they are people of money...often. Thanks to the Kindly Christians of the Medieval times who being forbidden by the Scriptures to charge interest (usery) for money, they forced the Jews to become the bankers (Rothschilds) yet dealt with them, but didn't get their hands dirty in the process...

QUOTE]

The House of Israel is not Jewish, never was. Israel and the Jews are two separate nations. If you will recall, there were twelve children of Israel (Jacob)…….Judah being one of them. The term “Jew” IS NOT a “modern” term. It first appears in II Kings chapter 16 (KJV). Jew is a shortened term for Judah. As a matter of fact, in this chapter, Israel is at war with the Jews. Israel became a separate nation under King Rehoboam. Ten tribes were taken away from Rehoboam for his and his father’s sins. Only Judah was left….this to fulfill the promise that God made to King David. From this time on the remaining ten tribes are referred to as the House of Israel. The House of Judah always means Jew.

For further proof, read on in II Kings and you will see that God caused the House of Israel to be taken captive by the Assyrians. This happened in 721 B.C. according to secular history. Judah went into captivity by the Babylonians 130 years later.

I will address the Sabbath, the trinity, Easter (Ashtar or Estarte), christmas and the day of the Resurrection in later posts.

Marshall, thanks for getting back with me.
I was raised in a Southern Missionary Baptist Church.
I was always taught this story of the Dogwood tree, the center of the flower pod (red) represented the spike holes in Christ's hands, and the brown streaks on the leaves represented the blood running from our Lord's hands.
I guess this has been a very entertaining story.
My dad is an ordained Baptist minister, he has preached this sermon many times,now it looks like he was told the same "story" from childhood, he looked through his concordance books (bibles) and other manuals trying to find the bottom of this.
The website will be very helpful, thank you for this one.
Also, thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to look for this.
Does anyone know what tree the cross was actually made from?

Thanks again,
John

John,
I attend an Assembly of God church and have heard the dogwood story before also. Though there is no mention of the cross being made out of dogwood (that i can find) i wouldn't let satan steal the message of the story. Dogwood was both my mother and fathers favorite bloom in the forest. As they now have both passed on, everytime i see a dogwood in full bloom, not only do i think of my parents, but my heavenly Father as well. It's the massage that's important, not the wood. As many things in nature do, I cause me to remember my Lord and Savoir and thank him for his love and forgiveness, grace and mercy. For as the old song says,,, I once was blind, but now i see!
Steve / Varmint Shooter

You are quite correct in noting that Judah is different from Israel...they were the northern and southern kigdoms...united under King Saul, I believe, ruled by David and Solomon. They disappear as kingdom entities...one in 586 BC and the other in 722 BC, if I remember my Old Testament precisely. One a Babylonian captivity, the other Assyrian if memory serves me rightly. The state of Israel disappears, except for a brief struggle for independence in the intertestamental period of the Maccabees. The term "Jews" however is generally applied to the Israelitic Nation in more modern times...since 1947 with the formation of the state of Israel....again, the first independent Jewish State since the two captivities. The term Jews though has been applied to the Hebrews from Medieval times and probably much earlier. So, while you are technically "correct," the distinction is a mute point...unless you want to stop Old Testament History prior to their union/dissolution. My point is, you can't take scripture out of its contextual setting, nor necessarily apply modern pedagological distinctions back on history. What frequently happens with folks who want to claim the truth for themselves, and deny it to others is, fine hairs are split to fit a very contemporary theological position, or personal belief. I don't believe any THEOLOGY......, whether conservative, liberal, orthodox, neo-orthodox, fundamentalist, EVER SAVED ANYONE. Neither Theology, nor right doctrinal belief, are the authors of Salvation. Salvation is by Grace through Faith in God's act in Jesus the Christ. Yes, we should be prepared to give an accounting of our faith, but that accounting never saves ANYONE, not us, nor another. Does it?? That IS scriptural.

Ooops! I forgot...there are a few other things not mentioned in the Scriptures (The Bible)...yep, that's right, the Bible isn't mentioned in the Scriptures...when Paul talks about the scriptures he is talking about the old Testament writings...not the New....Do you think Paul would have allowed any of his letters to be collected if he thought they would have been equated with Torah? or the Nebi'im (the prophets)... okay, okay how about like Rolex watches, SUVs, Marlin guns, or any kind of guns, etc. I would be more than happy to help anyone wishing to live not only by the Bible, but also without anything not found in the Bible...I always want to help people stay "religious." :D
Course, that would include others things like democracy (since the Bible presumes a Theocracy...rule by God); and Second Amendment rights since there is only a Second Commandment, and always being obedient to earthly rulers, however bad they are (oooo like the Clintons too???...yup! NO exceptions there), since as Paul says, they rule by a kind of Divine Right...duhhh...oh yeah...there's lots more...need I continue?
mmm...I DO LIKE discussion and abhor arguments... :D
didja notice how poorly I type?? Sorry bout that....computers aren't "scriptural" either.
Dont leave the forum,I like your input.Good going.

Halfbreed: There are many Christian traditions not in the bible. Some, like the dogwood tree legend, come from old folklore, others, like the cherry tree carol, owe their origins to the ancient apocrypha. (books that didn't make the bible -- in this case pseudo-mathew). No one contends that each and every tradition is part of the dogma of the church. With that said, the dogwood tree legend is a beautiful story (with a beautiful poem) that dramatizes nature's witness to the crucifixion. Perhaps we can apply the same tests to folklore that the ancient church (in the fourth century) applied to the collection of ancient books we now call the Bible. The church believed that the appropriate books would be self evident from their content. The books that were left out either did not conform to accepted dogma, or were clearly false. The fact that the dogwood tree legend has survived and florished may show its consistency with what we believe, makes a nice witness, and should not cause you to fundamentally question all your other beliefs.

John,

I don't find any reference to the dogwood tree, or the curse you mention. I've looked through about every conceivable translation and done word, phrase and subject searches and come up wanting. (good resource for online bible versions with search function http://www.crosswalk.com)

Actually, your reference to the curse on the dogwood tree is the first I've ever heard of such. Sorry, I can't give any light on your question.... although I've tried.

Perhaps someone else has the answer.

God Bless,

Dear Marshall, New on the site. It looks like a good one and to find Christian chat issues makes it even better
. ;Your responses that I have read are very pro in content.
Thanks, Tom Dunn

Marshall, Now that would have to be a campfire conversation! I was raised Baptist, but can no longer go along with it, I have joined the Methodist church, it seems to suit me better. I still have a problem with organized religions, probably always will. I seem to be questioning things more and more. I am not sure if this is good or bad.
My faith in God is only getting stronger and stronger.
If I told why, I would either be called a fanatic, or just plain dumb. but i can handle that :D
I know what a difference the Lord has made for me through prayer, no matter what "stories" I have learned, I know this to be the truth.

John


Hi John

I'll be the first to admit to confusion. We just completed a study on how to read the bible. It was very interesting. We need to know what was said. to whone and when. It was a lesson in context. Example the man at the pool. Jesus healed him then told him "sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee". This kinda shoots down the old once saved always saved teaching. There is also a mention of blotting out names in the book of life somewhere in Revelation. And there is Exodus 20 and Hebrews chapter 4 supporting the seventh day of rest as commanded. Think of it, God created the world in 6 days and rested in the seventh and hallowed it for man. That's creation and a commandment. There is also the example of Jesus Christ who taught and preached in the jewish sinagogue?? (Church) on the Sabbath. I've heard a lot of negative comments about divorce. Jesus spoke to thewoman at the well and told her she had ?? more than one husband and the man she was with was not her husband. He didn't say get away from me. He accepted her and offered her a way to obtain the living water.
There are many more things I could comment on if I were writing a book. An important thing to remember is we are all a part of the body if Christ.
You do right to question ideas. many people follow the teachings of man. Remember, we are to search the scriptures for the answers. Big church, little church makes NOdifferance. God hears our prayers. We don't know his plan. It will all unfold in time. You keep on questioning. That's how you learn. Although I do not doubt my pastor, I look up every book, chapter and verse he refers to. By reading it yourself, you learn.
I hope this isn't more then you expected.
Best wishes and God bless.
Tom

Hmmm.... a range chapel.... haven't thought about that one!
I think a multi denominational chapel at the range would be a most excellent improvement. :D
Ranger

Halfbreed! I understand your disappointment in finding out what you have believed can not be found in the bible. It is a beutiflul story reguardless, and since it stems from the love that God gives us, and I can see in no way where it deters from Gods word, I doubt that there is any harm in believing it. We had a discussion in my bible class about this Sunday about some facts (or possible better stated, Ideas, that gave me some disappointment myself.) Since my Pastor was not available for the class, because he filling a dual pasish right now, there was not time to ask him about my question. When I do get my answer I will come back with both the question and his answer.
In spite of your disappointment, rest assured that God loves you just as much, and will grant you the comfort that you need. Jim

TPM, I agree the type of tree has no real importance, however, what is important is this, since finding out the "dogwood tree" was not based in fact, and I have taken it as fact for all my life, I am now having to consider how much more I have beleived is not the truth.
If it were related as a feel good story that would have been one thing, but to teach something as fact, and it is not. It really makes me wonder what else is not right. That is the problem. :( Lots of reading and thinking to do!

John


Much of what many of us were taught from childhood turns out to be traditional and not scriptural. In some cases, such as the dogwood tree, the Bible simple does not support these traditions, while the Bible contradicts others, and in numerous cases the Bible itself is self-contradictory. Don't sweat the details. As long as we manage to keep somewhere inside the lines we will probably still get a passing grade.

Examples: [Despite what I was taught as a kid]

How many of each species of animal did Noah take onto the ark? Answer, 14.

Is it biblically okay to marry your cousin? Yes

Many of these contradictions and fallacies have been long known but for some reason clerics persist in perpetuating them.

For anyone interested in such matters one such source is the book 'Self-Contradictions of the Bible', by Wm Henry Burr. (1860). It has been recently reprinted and should be available through a public library.

[QUOTE=Loader 3009]

<< We violate His dietary laws, we worship on the wrong days,>>

What dietary laws do we violate?
How do you figure we worship on the wrong day?

I was allways taught in church that the cross was made from the Dogwood tree, After Christ's cruxificion, the Dogwood tree was cursed, so that it would grow so twisted and bent, that it could never be used for a cross again.
However I can't find any text in the bible to confirm this.
The only tre I can find that was cursed was the fig tree that did not bear fruit, so it was cursed, then died and withered away.
Can someone help me out with this one. Book and verse would help greatly. Otherwise I will have to reconsider many biblical "facts" I was always taught.

Thanks,
John


I was taught the same story growing up in a Souther Baptist church. I can't find any scripture to back it up. Oh Well.

Hello everyone, I am glad to see so many people have looked into this thread! There have been many interesting ideas, of which I am thankful for.
Sadly my wife and I have fallen out of the church again. NOT away from the Lord, but the church. We told them time and time again we need to learn more before we can help with commitees and such. Then one night when we are not there for a committee meeting. We BOTH get volunteered for committees we know nothing about. Then get fussed at for not doing our new job, which we were not even informed about. and it goes on.
At this point I doubt we ever step back into a church, we have visited several. And keep seeing the same games played. we have had enough of it. And refuse to put up with it any more. This is not a rant, We still try to help when we can. where we can.
We very much beleive in the Lord, but can't stomach the politics and hypocricy.
Your friend in Christ, John

Halfbreed , Dont let men and women that go to church and are just SINNERS SAVED BY GRACE Get you down on Jesus. If we the church (Christian) quit going to church because of a sin that a fellow member did or an un thoughtful deed that a member did no one would be in church myself included. My own grandfather once told my mother after an argument over a nasty comment of gossip that my grndmother made and denied that my Mom was overcome with evil and my MOther reads the word of God everyday and prays everyday etc.. and is extememly knowledgable when it comes to the working of the spirit and the word of God . I was deeply offended and quit going to church for several yrs.and I found out that I only hurt my walk with Christ not the people who offended me. but I was singing gospel music and after meeeting my wife I started going back to church but, I soon realized that you are not going to find the PERFECT church always some one will do something to offend you but, the bible gives an solution for patching up things when people offend you . Look it up. Finally Go to church for yourseves you dont go there to please men or women you go to worship God and according to the Apostole Paul we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.Service begins each time you walk out of the doors of the church and reach the street. When you go to church your not serving God you go there to Worship him and give him thanks.Dont let a few hypocrites ruin your worship time with the Lord it should be more important to you then a hypocrites opinion or their constant medalling. Go back to that church and show that person you are not so easily disswaded from your path with Christ. Eventually if you keep it up they will probably be moved out of the church throught the power of the spirit weeding out the bad. Always a few tares get sowed in with the wheat!!Finally just as Christ opposed and answered the Devil in the wilderness each time he was tempted Christ used the word of God (to fight him he would say "it is written" ) it is more powerful than a two edged sword dividing even until the soul.So the next time the hypocrite or politician comes around use the WORD OF GOD against them and they will be put in there place by the Word.God Bless you dont make the same mistake mant have made and allow a weak christian who has allowed the darkness to creep in their lives to put the light out in yours!


P.S. romas 12:1 says "I beseech you therefore brethern ,by the mercies of God that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptableunto God,which is your reasonable service.
This is just the tip of the ice berg so to speak and in order to grow stronger and do greater service then this we must pray and worship God in spirit and truth and draw close to him .

Stan H.

454 Hunter, I totally agree we are there to worship in the Lord.However when 75% of the time I get so aggrivated I just want to smack somebody up beside the head, I have nearly left in the middle of services to keep from losing my cool.
We certainly have not walked away from God, but the hypocties who want to play God. and either harrass or humiliate someone else. We have had enough of this. There are better ways for us to serve the Lord than to stay and blow a gasket.
Your friend in Christ,
John

75% of the time I get so aggravated I just want to smack somebody up beside the head,

Mate, we're kindred spirits, we can divide the smackees up between us and achieve economy of scale. I'll look into a visa for you both, you can come to our committee-free village episcopalian church. You'll especially enjoy smacking bishops. And you can help me to improve my handloading, the rural fire brigade will welcome you with open arms.
What's your job, so that I can get one lined up for you when the visa's approved?
In Christ
Richard

Richard of Oz, Thanks for the incredible offer! We sure would love to visit the Land of Oz.
I have just started a home inspection business, but I am open to most ideas. Need any auto repo work done, that is my fall back job. LOL
By the way does the Bishops head ring any louder than A Lay PERSONS? :p
your friend in Christ, John

By the way does the Bishops head ring any louder than A Lay PERSONS? :p


You bet, empty vessels make the most noise.

Richard, you nearly made me spew coke out my nose.
That was a good one
John

Yeah, agree with Wallace. Must read the Word for yourself. I was so shocked at many of the things I read at first, not believing that most of the human traditions are not in there! A huge one for me, as a new believer in high school, and working on Sundays, I'd try different churches in my work jeans and decent shirt, but get the worst looks from the dressed up crowd. I finally quit going, yet knew that God must have been more interested in my heart than my wardrobe. Fortunately, He never let me go, and I read the same in His Word eventually. How pleasant that was.

No more traditions of men. Let's get to the real thing and live there, and stop pretending to be something that we cannot be apart from Him!

By the way, halfbreed, we're all halfbreeds. I call myself mestizo, mixed blood. From Heaven. And earth.

JR1, I beleive most folks are exactly right here, I certainly beleive in the Lord, I just can't stand to be in the church and watch the back stabbing and other games played.
My dad is an ordained Baptist minister, he is not presently preaching fulltime. But being raised in a pastors home, you just would not beleive what I have seen.
I try to help when and where I can, I seem to be constantly singing Amazing Grace and The Old Rugged Cross. If God can let me sing it, I can certainly croak out a joyous tune for the Lord.
Oh by the way, I am 1/2 Cherokee and 1/2 Scottish, who was it that said there is no room for hyphenated Americans. I am just proud of my heritage.
Halfbreed

Wow, one wonders how a Cherokee and a proper Scut (Scot!) got together!

Well, a couple things that we know, my brother. One is that God is in no building alone. And not every church that calls itself is a church! Fortunately, I live in the Chicago area (I can't believe I just said fortunately! Except, that I am as it relates to spiritual matters. For everything else....), and have a variety of churches to choose from. I am part of an independent, Bible-teaching church, which is busy not merely teaching, but doing and encouraging us to get out and do the Christian life.

Second, we must find a way to live in community. Lone Ranger (sorry for white man talk!) Christianity cannot exist very well. We are built for family, to live and work together. Actually, I've said for years that the American Indians and the Latinos live out the New Testament better than most Christians. As I've read extensively on the Sioux and Crazy Horse, I am struck at how there was no thought of the individual. So you need to prayerfully seek God's direction for a body of believers. It may be small, a home church group or even a small Bible study perhaps. It might be out of your tradition, like a charismatic church. In any event, your pursuit of God really is meant to be with brothers.

I encourage you to find them!