I was wondering about sizing down .270 bullets to make them fit my 6,5 Carcano. Carcano bullets are not the usual .264" but a full .268". Using Speer Hot-Cor .270" bullets, which have a bonded-to-the-jacket core, I would try sizing them down to that diameter.
Do you think it would require too much effort in the sizer? Maybe I could use two successive passes with two dies. Lee can make custom sizing dies with the required diameters.
Anyone done this before?
PP. :)

This can be done, but I would avoid the Lee products for this because they are meant to be used with lead bullets. Take a look at this website www.rceco.com and give Richard a call or email and let him know what you are trying to do, he can probably make you a draw die for your reloading press. Keep in mind that the "hot-cor" designation doesn't make it a true bonded bullet.

Have done it with home made dies, but ran into a problem. Was sizing .357" bullets to .351" to shoot in a .351WSL. On occaion a bullet would just evaporate on the way to the target; not every time and never with some brands of bullets. Turned out that the jacket material was springing back from the lead core, leaving some of them a bit loose in the jacket. Others were better bonded and didn't spring back 9or at least not enough to self-disintigrate).

Ended up making a die to take them to .350" and then a second to bump them back up to .352". That cured the jacket spring back.

You probably won't have that problem with teh bonded Speers, but it's a hard swage.

The experience that Ribbonstone cites is why I reccomended Richard Corbin for the job. If you send them some of the bullets that you want to use and tell him what you want to do with it, the die will be made for that purpose if it works. It will probably cost you a little more, but it will save you a bunch of time messing around. In order to avoid some of the problems that you can encounter, I would go with a true bonded core bullet. The fact that they pour hot lead into the jacket does not in and of itself bond the core to the jacket, there must also be a bonding agent involved. The way to tell if a bullet is truly bonded is to cut it in half lengthwise and mangle it with a vice grips, if the core ever seperates from the jacket it is not a bonded core bullet. You should be able to pound the half bullet with a hammer until it's almost flat and still have the core firmly attached. I've tried this with some Speer 7mm 130gr bullets and it wasn't that case. I did that a number of years ago and things may have changed, but at the time that was my result.

Hick's right, without some flux it won't bond (flux like plumber's flux, not casting flux).

You couldn't risk pouring a hot core into a jacket with flux in it, because the lead would explode back out when the flux evaporated. The purpose of that kind of flux is to etch the metal and remove the thin oxidized layer at the surface which prevents bonding.

I believe that all, or nearly all, bonded bullets start out with a jacket, some flux in it, then a solid lead core is inserted and then baked until the core melts. Bullet then gets its final shape in a later swaging operation. The flux will have time to evaporate before the lead melts. Either that or you would have to clean the jackets, dry then, and pour the molten core in the bullet in the absence of oxygen, which would be expensive to say the least.

Or, you could check with Grafs. They have jacketed bullets for the Carcano.

DC

Thanks to all of you! this board is decidedly very instructive! I'll try with Graf but I'm not sure about the results: I live in Quebec and our customs agents have "an attitude" against anything related to guns and shooting. Perhaps Graf won't ship to Canada because it is so much trouble, too.
We'll see.
PP. :)

What about swaging the "H" type bullet (Nosler, A-Frame, etc)?

May lose the bond on the front portion, but the rear portion should stay with you when hitting. 'Course, swaging that solid piece of brass/copper in the middle might be a little tough.

With enough leverage, the Barnes and other solid copper bullets (North Fork) could be reduced without worry about disbonding. Man, I would anticipate a hydraulic press to do this job!

Kdub,
sizing the partition type bullets my cause additional grief also, but I don't know for sure. The "spring back" comes form the jacket material, so odds are increased that it would cause further complications in the matter. As a side note, the Nosler Partition is not a bonded core bullet, front or rear core. It is one of the better designs that exist for hunting, but bonded core it's not.

Another thing to take into account with this project is the weight (length) of the bullet to be drawn down. The longer the bullet, and the greater the diameter reduced causes further complications. Envision the bullet as a banana, or a tube of toothpaste, with one end cut off. When you draw down the jacket, the material inside has to go somewhere, like out the nose of the bullet. The longer the bullet, the more metal that is going to squeeze out the tip, the same applies to the amount of diameter that is being reduced. Even a bonded core bullets is not going to prevent this. Even though the core is bonded to the jacket, the metal in the metal that is not in contact with the jacket is free to be displaced by pressure just the same as with any other bullet.

Never did stay with it for a long time...other than making those .351"'s and now making .406"s from .410"s, haven't done a lot in this area. Would guess opene pointed pistol bullets (which I'm fooling with) are more tolerant of this kind of foolishness than rifle bullets...less length, more nose space for extrusion, thinner jackets.

There are .264", .266", and ,268" bullets on the market, and it may be better to just buy them.

Alternatively, have found one old-time rule about 6.5's to be true. If you can drop a .25cal rifle bullet (.257-.258") through the bore, it just isn't going to shoot standard .264" bullets well. Some are large enough to be more than .257" from land-to-land. If a .258" bullet won't slide into the bore from gravity, there is a decent chance that standard bullets will at least group in a full-choke pattern.

Another possibility. If you can't get the Grafs or can't size to what you want, I've found with the Carcano that they are VERY sensitive as to bullet weight and velocity. I have 5 of them and all react the same way. The Grafs bullets I tried were the best, but I also had acceptable results with a Hornady 160 grain .264" bullet and 34 grains of IMR4350 powder. (35 grains would be MAX). That comes close to duplicating the original military load combination. No tack-driver, but not as bad as some folks say.

Just a thought.

DC

You might consider paper-patching some bullets up to size.

Sionaprhys has the short answer, and a very good one. You could try some paper patched bullets with little invested, other than some elbow grease, to see if the rifle will actually shoot to start with. I would avoid boat tail bullets for this venture, a open base bullet (NP comes to mind) might be a good place to start.

I did a lot of shooting with the Carcanos this past summer and found out a few things. I have 5 of the rifles but the range shooting was confined mainly to two. The IMR load I mentioned in an earlier post was the best load I found (using readily-available bullets). Any loads that looked particularly good or bad I tried in all 5 rifles to see if it was a particular rifle or held generally. I‘ve shot the Carcano for years, but always accepted the fact that it shot somewhat worse than lousy. Last spring I got a “deal” on 3 more of the rifles and decided to work on loads. My old standby load of a 140 grain cast bullet over BL-C(2) was good for banging away, but I wanted to see if I could do better. Everything was shot from machine rest so my failings would not affect results.

My attempts at paper patching were on the bad side of terrible. This could well have been due to my technique as I’m NOT experienced in it. The 140 grain paper patched bullets I tried with various powders it produced patterns, not groups. Again, that could have been my methods.

The Carcano does not like cast bullets particularly well. I went with sized to .264”, which was what I had always shot, and .266”. Five powders at five different charge weights per powder, five shots each load. The .266” were not measureably better than the .264” and neither were very good. My old load of BL-C(2) with the 140 grain (Lyman mold #266469) was as good as any and better than most. All were better than my paper patched attempts.

It is my guess (and I emphasize GUESS) that the less than stellar results with cast and paper patched may be due, at least in part, to the gain-twist rifling the Carcano uses.

Of the 120, 140 and 160 jacketed bullets I used, the heavier bullets were better, and higher velocities (within reason) tightened up groups with each powder used. Light (120 and 140 grain) jacketed bullets were only marginally better than cast, but they also performed best at the higher velocities. The “oversized” jacketed bullets performed the best, but the .264” Hornady JRN wasn’t too shabby.

I pretty much stayed within published load parameters with all the combinations I tried. The Carcano has an undeserved reputation as a weak action but isn’t one to try to hot-rod.

My conclusions, for what they’re worth: The Carcano will never mount a challenge as a bench rest competition rifle, but properly loaded it certainly is better than its reputation. A good truck gun and certainly adequate as a deer rifle. I know this didn’t address your original question, but I hope it’s of some use.

Where in Quebec are you? I used to do a lot of rambling around in the La Verendrye / Val d’Or area and spent quite a bit of time in the Chibougamau / Lac St.-Jean area too, mostly fishing, but it’s been awhile. Last time I was there (quite a while ago) the road from Lebel-sur-Quevillon to Chibougamou was mostly washed out dirt, but I hear it’s all hardtop now.

DC

Just out of curiosity did you slug the bore, you may be able to use .270 as is. In my expierience, I have made a resizing die for .311 to .308 reason I bought 2000 in a townwide yard sale sierra 150s ( $1 per box) just took a 7/8 by 14tpi allen bolt, and had a friend who worked in a cuttergrind shop make a ..307 reamer out of a 5/16 .312 and found that I had to lube them to make it work. Got this real neat looking lead christmas tree squirting out of the top without the lube. Don't know if you can get a real close reamer, such as 7mm, but heck look up a cutter grind shop, tell them what you need. you can put a steelrod in a fired case and epoxy it in for your ram. I made a steel rod with the proper groove for my shell holder and turned it down, this I made from a 5/16ths allen bolt and used if I can remember a shell holder for 9mm. Take care and hope I helped. Swany

".270" bullets are usually 0.277" - 0.278"

Yet another example of the little numbers attached to our favorite cartridges not really being very descriptive.....

I don't believe I'd try shooting ".270" bullets through a 6.5mm gun.....

Hey, MikeG -

Did I ever tell you about the time a gunsmith installed the wrong caliber barrel on a rifle of mine and I was swaging .264 bullets through a .257 barrel for a couple of years before finding out the problem? :o

Wow.... pretty amazing that didn't cause some real serious problems!

Yup, put a cold chill up my spine when I diagnosed the problem of too rapid barrel heating and bad accuracy.

I had a Swede Mauser rebarreled and chambered for a 6.5mmX.257 Rob'ts AI. The gunsmith and I handpicked a 6.5 X 1:10 barrel blank to chamber, flute and install on the action. He must have picked up a .257 blank by mistake later on, chambered it for the desired cartridge, roll stamped his name and the "6.5x.257 Rob't AI" on the barrel and slapped it on the action. I tried for a couple years, off and on, to get a bullet/powder/primer combination that the rifle would like, but nothing would really settle down. All bullets were jacketed soft points. Even fire lapped the bore in hopes of getting some sort of accuracy. It helped, but not to the point desired. Finally one day, I decided to slug the bore to see if it had tight spots. Sure enough, there were 3 tight places and a couple of smooth places. Miked the slugs (did several) and they kept reading .2576 and .2578. Miked the muzzle and it read .2576.

Took the rifle back to the smith, he did his own miking and came up with the same results. Needless to say, he very quickly found the former blank and installed it in a matter of days. Understand the old barrel got installed on a .25-06 he was building up for another customer. Even kicked in the barrel fluting at no extra charge! Ha! - always wondered what sort of accuracy the new owner got with a bumpy bore!

The newly installed barrel now prints very well and I'm happy with it. Another question I've had is just what the actual chamber pressures were running. Thank God the Swedes built strong actions - a 1941 Husqavarna model.

I did a lot of shooting with the Carcanos this past summer and found out a few things. I have 5 of the rifles but the range shooting was confined mainly to two. The IMR load I mentioned in an earlier post was the best load I found (using readily-available bullets). Any loads that looked particularly good or bad I tried in all 5 rifles to see if it was a particular rifle or held generally. I‘ve shot the Carcano for years, but always accepted the fact that it shot somewhat worse than lousy. Last spring I got a “deal” on 3 more of the rifles and decided to work on loads. My old standby load of a 140 grain cast bullet over BL-C(2) was good for banging away, but I wanted to see if I could do better. Everything was shot from machine rest so my failings would not affect results.

My attempts at paper patching were on the bad side of terrible. This could well have been due to my technique as I’m NOT experienced in it. The 140 grain paper patched bullets I tried with various powders it produced patterns, not groups. Again, that could have been my methods.

The Carcano does not like cast bullets particularly well. I went with sized to .264”, which was what I had always shot, and .266”. Five powders at five different charge weights per powder, five shots each load. The .266” were not measureably better than the .264” and neither were very good. My old load of BL-C(2) with the 140 grain (Lyman mold #266469) was as good as any and better than most. All were better than my paper patched attempts.

It is my guess (and I emphasize GUESS) that the less than stellar results with cast and paper patched may be due, at least in part, to the gain-twist rifling the Carcano uses.

Of the 120, 140 and 160 jacketed bullets I used, the heavier bullets were better, and higher velocities (within reason) tightened up groups with each powder used. Light (120 and 140 grain) jacketed bullets were only marginally better than cast, but they also performed best at the higher velocities. The “oversized” jacketed bullets performed the best, but the .264” Hornady JRN wasn’t too shabby.

I pretty much stayed within published load parameters with all the combinations I tried. The Carcano has an undeserved reputation as a weak action but isn’t one to try to hot-rod.

My conclusions, for what they’re worth: The Carcano will never mount a challenge as a bench rest competition rifle, but properly loaded it certainly is better than its reputation. A good truck gun and certainly adequate as a deer rifle. I know this didn’t address your original question, but I hope it’s of some use.

Where in Quebec are you? I used to do a lot of rambling around in the La Verendrye / Val d’Or area and spent quite a bit of time in the Chibougamau / Lac St.-Jean area too, mostly fishing, but it’s been awhile. Last time I was there (quite a while ago) the road from Lebel-sur-Quevillon to Chibougamou was mostly washed out dirt, but I hear it’s all hardtop now.

DC
Hi, DMC!
Like you said I will not try to hot-rod that rifle; I think I'm going to ask Lee to make a special mold for this one in the 140-150gr range. I'll load it over 13-15 gr. of Red Dot for plinking, I'm sure it is a good shooter. There are some markings on the rifle that identify it as an "accuracy marked" one and I want to find out.
I live in Shawinigan, a small town about 35 miles north of Trois-Rivières, on the Saint-Maurice river. Good place for hunting whitetail and moose. I think you have been in Québec at the right time; now they got all those stupid gun-control laws and make all sorts of fuss for people wanting to go hunting here.
Adding insult to misery is the fact that with the current mad-cow disease scare, your customs agents no longer authorize wild game meat (!!?!) to be imported into the U.S., just in case they had secret relations with THAT poor lone mad cow they found in Alberta, yeah, sure...
End result is no more U.S. hunters in Canada. Maybe this will open their eyes if nothing else does.Hope it does soon.
See you, guys.
PP.

Just saw in the papers a few days ago that the ban on hunters bringing meat from Canada has been lifted. You do have to fill out some sort of form to cross the border with meat from your hunting trip, though.

http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features/articles/newsflash/CanadaImports.cfm