G'Day Folks, I'm in need of the official ruling regarding "smooth bore" target shooting, at our club we have a large spread of "smooth bores" types, one lady using a .45 hawken bored out to .50cal, on it is the original sights (adjustable ) she has spat the dummy because others are using what they refer to as 'real smooth bores' most of which are pecussion shot guns, as I can tell there is only three out of twelve that are S/Bs, two Brown besses and my .69 italian musket. She has demanded the Committee post the official rules regarding them, I have searched all over Australia and can't find rules that are consitant, some say no sights at all, some regard anything below .54 as a Smooth rifle, larger than .75 is called "Smooth artillary", I think her demand to the Committee has backfired on her,or, she has shot herself in the foot.
So far I have found four classes for S/Bs.
1. Smooth Artillary
2. Smooth bore Musket ( the three mentioned above)
3. Smooth bore (percussion fowling pieces/ perc shot gun)
4. Smooth rifle ( doesn't sound right .....but)
We don't have that many members in these events so we are
trying to be diplomatic and relaxing the rules, but if she insists we will find ourselves not shooting this event and any time you don't get to shoot one of these old gems is just sad.
Thank for your help................Paladin

Not much else to call them but smoothbore rifles. Are such rifles on display, evidently some who wanted a Kentucky /Tennesee Rifle wanted it smoothbore back in the 1700-early 1800's. Are some that were built that way.

Were some taht got made that way when there was no one handy to do a re-bore after the rifling was gone. Most of those are blackmsith-done.

Sounds like an interresting shoot...would love to shoot with nyou, but doubt my 10ga. will reach all the way there from here.

Took the last post off...not to do with subject matter.
Need this info,
Paladin

Better if I don't...would end up shooting that wife beating ***...don't hold with that behavior.

Do have one that got made up years ago when the Shot Show (a kind of national convention of gun makers) was in town. We (a firend and I) helped a nice little old Italian man and his translator see some of the sights in the French Quarter...drinking was definately part of the agenda. Old guy (through translator..old guy could speak some textbook English, but had trouble with Southern-State-American) offers to build me a pair of pistols in any caliber I wanted.

Though it was one of those drunk-things people say...so asked for a pair of .17cal. Kentuckys. Excanged addresses (gave him a gun shop I dealt with) and went on with the evening's entertainment.

A bout 18 monts pass and a package comes in for me at the shop. Plain, but very nice matched pair of full sized Kentucky pistols...looked perfectly normal. Engraved on the side was the cailber: "Cal. 4.5 Black Powder Only" (the decimal wasn't a mistake)... .17 smoothbore. On the other sided is the Name "P. Bondini - Made in Italy". The proofs and serial number were stamped, but the other markes look hand engraved.

Came with a musket nipple, a standard #11 , a loading rod and a cleaning rod (the wooden ram rod under the barrel is functional, but sized for a .45cal.). Patched #2 bird shot works well...but I haven't a clue to how fast the shot is going as my chronograph won't capture a single #2 bird shot. With 3.5gr. of FFFG, it's fast enough to shoot thorugh a garden rake handle or split a water filled beer can from hydrostatic pressure...call it 1300fps.

Put a fusile (a sealed devise that used centerfire primers) on it, and often just plink with airgun pellets and NO powder at all. Won't make it at 50yards...the little #2 shot gets kind of lost after 15yards.

Sure does slow down in a hurry.

Only kept one, the other went to the friend who was with us that night...and like a fool, he sold his...so ther is at least one other out there.

Be darned...never tried it before, but that little bugger will shoot a #2 shot through a quarter...no bending, just "zing"...if I deburr the edges, could have been done by a 1/8" drill.

So...perhaps I under estimated the vel.

Figure the little .15" balls weigh about 4.1gr. each (not pure lead...whatever "magnum" shot is made of. Powder charge of 3.6gr. of Tripple Seven or 5.0gr. of FFFG (what a fired .22LR case holds). Still can't catch a #2 shot with the sky screens...may have to hunt up some fine lined paper screens toget an idea of how fast the little bugger is moving.

G'Day Ribb, Got another teaser for you. one of the events we shoot is "Matched Pistol and rifle" 25yds pist, 50yds rfl,
what do you recon I shoot? yep, .69English coach pistol (40gr .685 ball, 13 inch barrell) and old faithful .69 musket.
don't score to hot , but strewth it's fun.
Still don't want to come down?........Paladin

Only two smooth bores I have are that 10ga. and that .17...and the 10 is acutally an 11ga. Use .735" patched RB and 85gr. of FFg..could take a bit more powder, but that seems to be the "sweet spot" for accuracy. One barrel does shoot better than the other, so when in use, it gets buckshot in poorer shooting barrel and a patched ball in the good one. Never did put sights on it (as I also use it for duck hunting), so accuacy kind of suffers a bit with beads (I did relocate the rear bead to actully shoot ball to point of aim...makes shot patterns a tiny bit left, but what the devil, it's a help in 1/2 the crossing shots on ducks).

But like you, you just have to love a round ball big enough that hurts when you drop it on your foot.

Know the .17 groups pretty poorly at 25yards...make it 15yards and I wouldn't embarrass myself.

Hi
I was thinking about your situation while I was out on my mountain bike on the hills last evening. It bothered me that much.
I strikes me you might be approaching this "opportunity" (read problem) from the wrong end.
If the only people in the club with a problem are the wife beater and his spouse then maybe it's their problem and not yours.
Also, maybe you should consider expelling the husband as anyone with the sort of anger problems he displays should not be around firearms or other people when in possesion of such.
Just some thoughts from Christchurch.
cheers
CBK.

Thanks for that CBK, problem is the do gooders now say (read allow) you can't sack or exile anyone without three written warnings, not sure of the laws in the land of the long white cloud but here if you expell someone from your shooting club you must within 14 days inform the Gest ....sorry.. Police, they then deem that person to be not a fit and proper person to hold a firearm licence and confiscate them, problem, because they are married the wife also losses hers, she suffers enough already.
best keep him where he can be "trained" he is calming down.
Paladin

Figure the little .15" balls weigh about 4.1gr. each (not pure lead...whatever "magnum" shot is made of. Powder charge of 3.6gr. of Tripple Seven or 5.0gr. of FFFG (what a fired .22LR case holds). Still can't catch a #2 shot with the sky screens...may have to hunt up some fine lined paper screens toget an idea of how fast the little bugger is moving.[/QUOTE]

The velocity can be measured with a ballistic pendulem. Theat is if you can get it to stop in something light enough to get an accurate weight. By measuring the displacement of the pendilem you can calculate the height that the pendulem was lifted and from that the energy that the projectile had at the moment of impact. With the weight and energy of the projectile the velocity can becalculated.

Thank God for chronographs!

Sounds resonable...have only used a pendulum for comparisons, not for working backwards to get a vel. approximation.

May be able to hunt up some wire-break screens...have to be pretty close spaced wires. Next time out, will try narrowing the slits of the sky screens first.

As far the wife beater...that's a problem that won't be cured by just banning him from the range, or banning his behavior...is the easy way out, it only keeps it from your sight, doesn't halt it.

Thanks fellas, but I still would like the ruling I asked for up top, maybe you could put me in touch with a club or something, went all over the net and could only find smooth cannon.
Paladin

Thanks fellas, but I still would like the ruling I asked for up top, maybe you could put me in touch with a club or something, went all over the net and could only find smooth cannon.
Paladin

Try the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association (http://www.nmlra.org/)for rules. I believe that what you are talking about is often referred to as a trade gun match in this area. The idea is that a trade gun was most often a smoothbore gun AND unsighted. So, sights other than the front one aren't allowed. Even having the tang to be grooved or the tang screw to stand proud enough to be used as a reference or above the plane of the barrel is disallowed.

What this means is that this lady's gun would be allowed if she removed the rear sight. Often, any gun of a given ignition type is permitted (usually flintlocks) so long as it is smoothbore and without sights.

I've found a couple of other links:

Log Cabin Shop (http://www.logcabinshop.com/events.html)
Blackpowder Basics (http://www.homestead.com/sdcml/basics.html)(will give you some help with terms definition, required for effective, enforceable rules)
Northstar West (http://www.northstarwest.com/)

I hope this helps mate.

Try the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association (http://www.nmlra.org/)for rules. I believe that what you are talking about is often referred to as a trade gun match in this area.
I hope this helps mate.
Yeah thanks Hobie , was helpful, never thought of looking for trade gun, I've heard the term but up til now didn't know what they were, funny y'know we all talk different but mean the same.
As to removing her rear sight she will be ok with that, but I won't, mine is an 1850 original .69 Italian made in the french pattern (percussion with a rear action lock) the rear sight on it is just a square type lug with a cut in it, its forged onto the top of the tang, because I now need reading glasses to see normal sights and it is only 4inches from my eye I would like to remove it but down here this gun is worth about $2,500.00, I don't think I want to do that.............Paladin